Collective or Group Karma in Early Buddhism?

[@DougsDharma]

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[@prajnadeva]

Group karma is a concept used to explain certain kind of phenomena that happened in our world. For example, an airplane crashed, all passengers died. If we accept that all passengers died because of their karmic fruit, then all passengers must have done something bad in their past (lives), so the negative karma can ripen all at the same time. This is similar to conjunctive karma, but they are not necessarily did it at the same time and place. And then it turned out one passenger did not board the plane because of traffic jam. Well this one passenger did not have the same karma. For a group of people to live in one region/ nation, they enjoy the similar environment and condition. It must be because they have similar karma. They have done causes that are quite similar. For a child to inherit parents sin, that is not indian/ Buddhist ideas.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, though as you say this can be interpreted not as group karma but as conjunctive karma, which is a different matter.

[@branimirsalevic5092]

Group kamma is a trick used to "explain" the cast system. Or as an excuse for collective punishment. Kamma is just an individual's acting and the way that acting influences the individual's mental & physical state. Obviously,as we act all the time, this "state" is actually a "process", a flow, a flux....

[@jonwesick2844]

Not all suffering is due to karma. The Buddha even says so in S 36:21 (p 1278 of the Connected Discourses) when he tells Sivaka that sometimes you just get sick.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, I mentioned this in a couple of past videos, for example: kzbin.info/www/bejne/eHa1nKqCmK6iba8

[@SeekingVirtueA]

Like the handy graphics on screen.

[@DougsDharma]

Glad they're useful!

[@fireatwill8143]

Hi Doug, very interesting subject! Personally I find it funny that most people seem to associate karma with punishment. I feel it's more of a teaching mechanism. Severe at times yes, but ultimately isn't the aim of Buddhism to lead us out of ignorance, even going so far as questioning Buddhism itself (a kind of collective organization) ? Sometimes we're gonna get burned, but sometimes a lesson learned can be invaluable. I think karma is a compassionate teacher. I don't think being victimized by people for what you didn't do has much to do with karma.🙏

[@DougsDharma]

🙏😊

[@aw__3476]

found the discussion around 11min really insightful. sometimes i consider momentum as an interesting physical analogue for karma, especially in the context of the sliding block problem where momentum is transferred from one object to another

[@DougsDharma]

Ah yes that's an interesting analogy.

[@JMKrauss1]

Thanks for that video! I wonder If you could talk about the matter of sharing merits (with "groups" of people) according to the concept of group karma.

[@DougsDharma]

Yes, I'll be doing a video on that as well.

[@JMKrauss1]

awesome!

[@wardenofeden]

Thank you for posting

[@DougsDharma]

You're very welcome!

[@xiaomaozen]

Happy new year and love from Germany! ❤ A country with - if it did exist - a very problematic national karma... 😅

[@DougsDharma]

Indeed, when you come to think about it what country doesn’t have problematic national karma? 🤔😬 And happy new year!

[@david-jr5fn]

Individual karma can cause you to become a member of a group and the karmic result reward or punishment is received at the same time but truly it was in each person making up that group to receive such a karmic response

[@01waterlilly]

Hi Doug, I find it interesting that the Buddha took the Vedic notion of Karma and made it about 'intent' and not about 'ritual action'. The Buddha equates Karma with the cause for rebirth. He seems to be concerned with not getting reborn and therefore, of the importance of creating 'positive' karma to avoid this. The question really is, was he right? Do we really get 'reborn' to make amends for bad deed/thoughts etc - and if so, what are the 'mechanism's behind this - and stay on that wheel until we finally reach a point where we don't have any karma to bring us back and reach Nirvana instead. It is as if the Buddha has an aversion to suffering or was it what the 'aesthetics' of his time were trying to achieve? None of the near death experiences have ever reported this to be the case. So, if the Buddha got this wrong, it kind of raises a lot of questions about the basic premises of Buddhism. If we choose to return to have experiences and aren't propelled back by some mystical force, then the Buddha's preoccupation with the question of suffering and how to avoid it, is in error. What do you think?

[@DougsDharma]

Well as a secular practitioner I leave questions about past and future lives out of my personal vision of the practice as speculative. My sense is that the basic point of the Buddha's teaching is to lead us towards the ending of dukkha through the ending of craving, clinging, attachment, and self-identification. If that has something to do with future lives, so be it, but even so it also has ramifications for this very life. As to your question however, positive karma alone cannot (on the Buddha's picture) bring us to nirvana, it can only bring us to heavenly realms. Nirvana is an escape from samsara which includes an escape from karma as well. The karmic wheel is essentially ego-focused, and so can only bring us to worldly successes and eventually worldly failures. It must be left behind.

[@01waterlilly]

Thank you Dough, I always value your opinion. @@DougsDharma

[@NeoAnderson101]

"There can be only One" - 🙏😉 'Highlander' (1986) 🎥

[@DougsDharma]

😄

[@dedishen4296]

Dear @DougsDharma, how about AN 4.70 which speaks about seasonal change and crop failure because of deeds of the kings which is followed by their people? Is it a kind of collective karma?

[@DougsDharma]

Great sutta reference, thanks. As it says, the king becomes unprincipled so the people of town and country become unprincipled. That is, they are all involved in being unprincipled, so they all suffer the results. This isn't strictly group karma, it's conjunctive karma.

[@thegoodnamesaretaken]

It's more difficult to make sense of our circumstances and how they relate to karma as a secular Buddhist, I think. If you believe in literal rebirth everything can be explained with past lives. If you do not many causes of suffering are unexplained. The genes and the parents you have for example have aan enormous impact on your life. Maybe the fact that some start out in a more challenging situation makes sense if we see the actions and genes of our parents as part of our own (a kind of scientific rebirth or a rebirth of actions). Or maybe it makes sense to just put karma to the side and stick to what we know scientifically. Actions have consequences. For everyone and everything, but at the same time bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people. Intentions and our values are still super important psychologically and sociologically. If we cultivate greed, hatred and delusion we - and the people around us - will suffer because of that. If we cultivate generosity, lovingkindness and wisdom we will suffer less and when we do suffer we - and those around us - know we did our best.

[@DougsDharma]

Right. I've done a number of videos on karma (I have a playlist) where I try to elaborate a more naturalistic understanding of karma. Even for the Buddha not all suffering was due to karma, so he didn't expect it to explain everything.

[@jamesgordley5000]

Buddhism is my favorite religion and the one I that follow, but it's weaker than most others at applying itself on a societal level. Cultures need to be able to justify behavioral frameworks which an advanced Buddhist might see as an appeal to human pettiness, but without which, all the average Joes would not know who/what they could count on, leading to social fragmentation. Though it's an interesting concept, I do *not* see collective karma as an good way to socially-engage Buddhism. People have been attributing fault to others on the basis of the group they belong to for thousands of years, and it's been a savage mess the whole time. The idea of group karma, particularly after we've finally come so far in judging people as individuals rather than by the prejudice of associations, would not merely be a concession to pettiness (of the kind society sometimes has to make for the mental security of people) but a massive exacerbation of it which would reverse centuries of progress. However, putting all the social implications aside, and focusing merely on logical foundation of the idea: Would the idea of group karma hold up? I would still say "no" (at least in any significant sense) on the grounds that karma follows intention, which is itself somewhat dependent upon the degree of consciousness which an entity possesses in undertaking the action. While nations and corporations do operate as a single self-serving being in a way analogous to a living one, the degree to which collective intelligence works effectively across the entire body of actions and reactions taken by the entity is nevertheless very low. One could say they ultimately operate like a reptile, which is accustomed to feel and respond to stimuli, but without the wherewithal to stop and ask, "Why?" A collective body of people can't even come to an evaluated understanding of what actually happened when an event takes place in the world, let alone on an agreed rationale for what happens next, which would seem to put the aggregate agency of a group on par with something like a starfish. Neurologically simple creatures are not well known for being great generators of karma within Eastern religions. I believe the consensus is that animals in general produce very little at all, though it's possible they may exist in such a state due to the consequences of earlier karma (please correct me if I'm wrong on those points). To treat nations or corporations as much more would be to give the leaders themselves *far* too much credit. I think it follows that group karma, if we were to entertain it's existence at all, would come to a net total of about zero. The consequences of the belief itself however, may be very egregious.

[@DougsDharma]

Thanks for your thoughts!

[@birdthompson]

Mahayana = personal karma influencing others...

[@DougsDharma]

If you mean merit transference, that exists in Theravāda as well, it will be the subject of another video.

[@AndrewHarris-zy3lg]

Nice video Doug. Could u pls make a video about the buddhists claim of buddha reaching the unpraralleled depth of liberation and wisdom where he alone is claimed to have transcended all sorts of clinging even the subtlest ones, all resulting in a uniquely non-essentialist, non-metaphysical and anti-foundationalist doctrine which is in stark contrast to majority of essentialist and metaphysical philosophies and spiritualities? Thanku in advance.

[@Dharmaku56]

Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play should be known. The diversity in kamma should be known. The result of kamma should be known. The cessation of kamma should be known. The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known.' Thus it has been said. In reference to what was it said? "Intention, I tell you, is kamma. Intending, one does kamma by way of body, speech, & intellect. "And what is the cause by which kamma comes into play? Contact is the cause by which kamma comes into play. "And what is the diversity in kamma? There is kamma to be experienced in hell, kamma to be experienced in the realm of common animals, kamma to be experienced in the realm of the hungry shades, kamma to be experienced in the human world, kamma to be experienced in the world of the devas. This is called the diversity in kamma. "And what is the result of kamma? The result of kamma is of three sorts, I tell you: that which arises right here & now, that which arises later [in this lifetime], and that which arises following that. This is called the result of kamma. "And what is the cessation of kamma? From the cessation of contact is the cessation of kamma; and just this noble eightfold path - right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration - is the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma. "Now when a disciple of the noble ones discerns kamma in this way, the cause by which kamma comes into play in this way, the diversity of kamma in this way, the result of kamma in this way, the cessation of kamma in this way, & the path of practice leading to the cessation of kamma in this way, then he discerns this penetrative holy life as the cessation of kamma. "'Kamma should be known. The cause by which kamma comes into play... The diversity in kamma... The result of kamma... The cessation of kamma... The path of practice for the cessation of kamma should be known.' Thus it has been said, and in reference to this was it said. AN 6.63

[@saralamuni]

There is karma but there is no self, individual, group or collective. There is action but no actor. There is intention but no intender.

[@peterharvey845]

Great video, Doug. But unplesant karmic results are not, as such 'punishments' unless they happen to arise via a legal punishment. They are unfortunate natural results..

[@DougsDharma]

True, good point. I guess punishment is a sort of metaphor in that case.

[@timbomilko5367]

Very interesting and instructive, as usual, Doug. Is the idea of collective or group Karma also related to the early schism in Mahayana and Theravada traditions? Historically, in my naive understanding and over simplification, Mahayana drew towards a more laicization of experience of practice and responsibilities and their results (also relating to endorsing civil authority). By contrast, the Theravada traditions, so I understand it, saw themselves as more authentic to the exclusive individual monastic practices and their results. Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

[@DougsDharma]

I'm not really sure. That said, you are right in general about some of the differences between Mahāyāna and Theravāda, though even in Theravāda there was often a strong endorsement of civil authority.

[@branimirsalevic5092]

No such thing, outside imagination. There's no collective kamma, no collective dukkha, no collective release from dukkha. Whatever I eat can satiate only my hunger, no one else's. Your own personal wholesome deed purifies only your own mind, no one else's. Your decision to join a group is your own kamma; whatever the group does - it's not xour kamma. Actually the group doesn't do anything except what the individuals within it do - and some may do good even when everyone else does wrong.

[@wibuhakase3522]

Perhaps true group karma doesn't belong to karmic category at all. It's different causal law but which then become entangled with karma like other niyamas do. As result, it appears to us as if it's true group karma although in reality it's not. 🤔 Thanks for this video. 😊

[@DougsDharma]

🙏😊

[@playmesalsa]

Karma means actions, and those actions can have negative or positive consequences. Karma can be personal, social or biological. Everything in Buddhism is about the ''Mind'' therefore, the emphasis is on personal Karma (How I feel) because this one is the only one that I can change for sure is the only one that is 100% in my hands, unlike social Karma in which I can only contribute but will not make a 100% change. Social Karma. e.g. I got neck cancer in 2019, and my life was safe thanks to the positive actions of others, doctors, nurses and the institution of the NHS in the UK. I was the receiver of positive Karma. If I were America, I would have died because I wouldn't be able to afford it, that would be bad social Karma. Biological Karma. e.g. That cancer was the consequence of being a human being full stop. Humans do get cancer, diabetes, cataracts and a big etc, this is explicitly said by the Buddha... ''We will get sick, get older and die'' ... so getting sick, ageing, or dying is not personal Karma, is the natural consequence of having a conditioned human body. All that I can do is put the odds in my favour by eating healthily and exercising, but there are no certainties. Thinking that I got cancer because of my personal Karma, even when I never smoked and had a good healthy life, would be identifying myself as my body, but I know that I am not this body. Diseases however can be a combination of biological and personal Karma, as in whenever the individual acts in ways that poison his own body like eating unhealthy and smoking.

[@david-jr5fn]

Some people believe that they can transfer their bad karma into an animal or another person so they won't have to deal with it for example into a chicken or scapegoat

[@KazushigeHashin]

I don't see why collective karma is a problem if you accept the Buddhist rebirth worldview; imperfect justice could just be karma from one's past life that realized as group karma!

[@leocities]

So you advocate engineering buddhism to whatever purposes and views - outside buddhism - you do have at this moment? What if your views are less perfect and useful than what buddhism already is, and you just end up messing everything up? Which is basically the history of the West.

[@branimirsalevic5092]

"Buddhist rebirth" is a superstitious belief imported into Buddhism from religions other than Buddhism, such as Brahmanism, by converts from those other religions. There is no true rebirth because there is no entity which goes even through this lifetime - even less from lifetime to lifetime to lifetime... The main source of wrong interpretation that Dependent Origination requires a minimum of 3 lifetimes is Buddhagosa and his Visuddhimagga; then many followed him and spread his wrong Brahmanic views... Buddhist Dependent Origination is actually lightning fast, instantaneous; it happens every time a sense organ meets its object and causes consciousness, leading to feeling, leading to craving, leading to attachment, leading to becoming, leading to "birth" of that object as "me, mine" which is Self. The cycles of Dependent Origination happen hundreds of times every day of our lives; Every thing we are attached to as "me, mine" is a "molecule" of Self. This is what is "born" and what "dies". It is these births of selfishness that we need to put an end to. As for the birth from the mother's womb, that happened once and that's all there is to it. You can't not be born and you can't not die, but in the meantime between these 2 most irrelevant seconds, there's yearsand years of the incessant birth and death of contacts, feelings, attachments, cravings...

[@Aldarinn]

​sorry but rebirth exists. Check Ian Stevenson.

[@branimirsalevic5092]

@@Aldarinn If it exists, how does it work? A man and a woman come together in the sexual way causing the conception of a new baby. Then a dead old person moves into the baby... Or: when you die, you will hover above a young couple while they're having sex, waiting for them to conceive a baby so that you can move into the baby... Is this really what you believe?

[@branimirsalevic5092]

@@Aldarinn and how does it work then? Two people do their thing which results in conception of a new baby; at that moment, a dead old person moves into the baby? Or: When you die, you'll hover above a couple going at it, waiting for them to conceive a baby so you can move in? You really believe this is what the Buddha taught?

[@normalizedaudio2481]

Big issue for me now.

[@johncalligeros2108]

Where is the rational, credible and lucid exposition of the 'relation' - the operative term - between what is putatively my own personal and individual karma as an individual, and the karma I share with a group, our rather than my karma. These two aspects of existence, individual and collective - which remain fundamental to sociology and psychology - are nowhere comprehensively treated in Buddhist epistemology-psychology.

[@chrisgilling543]

First 🙂

[@DougsDharma]

😄

[@Deborah-h1p]

Australians.