A Batman who kills, not every fan idea is a good one

It's a good idea to listen to fans, but there's also a catch.
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[@iconstatic4960]

The fan notion that “Bruce Wayne should turn into Frank Castle!” is what led the Bat-writers to give us Azrael-Batman in the 90s. He was intended as a rebuke to those people, but had he been popular, he would have remained Batman. Bottom line: People who wanted Bat-Punisher had their chance!

[@EvandroACruz]

Even Azrael don' killed bad guys. He leaved a villain to die and was shutted down after this.

[@clonegeek3317]

Maybe they shouldn't write the Joker in a manner where it becomes increasingly irresponsible for Batman to let him live

[@yourarchnemesis8453]

Why is the Joker Batman's responsibility? Joker is just a normal person with no super powers. You mean to tell me that no one in Gotham has a gun to put an end to him.

[@folly6682]

​@yourarchnemesis8453 because the Joker is Batman's arch nemesis? It might be more realistic if the people of Gotham started looking out for themselves and one day he got shot in the face by a random bystander, but fans would hate that

[@yourarchnemesis8453]

@folly6682 so him being arch nemesis to Batman creates a imaginary boundary line where only Batman can deal with him? I've never knew DC did a retcon like that.

[@folly6682]

​@@yourarchnemesis8453 The main character's actions drive the plot. If you can come up with a way to reconcile that with the Joker getting shot by John Doe with a CCW, be my guest

[@adamfrey4920]

@@clonegeek3317 There was a story in the 90s where some average Joe did try to kill the Joker. Didn't go well. I can't remember if Chuck Dixon or Alan Grant wrote it.

[@UmbrellaFrog]

Beyond listening to the fans, they should ask "why?" Why do the fans want the batman to kill? is it because the villains keep returning with seemingly no consequences for their actions? is it because batman has become extremely oversaturated and repetitive? the "why" is where the real solution is.

[@clonegeek3317]

Or maybe people are sick of writers constantly having Batman moralize about not killing

[@BirchTheGreat]

I think it's because there's a point where you have a character like the Joker who is 1,000 percent an irredeemable Mass murdering terrorist psychopath. He has probably injured, poisons, murdered or at least attempted murder tens of thousands of people. Batman going out of his way to multiple times saving his life, or preventing others from killing the joker. And then making some Grand moral statement about it. I think it's because at a certain point, If there is ever a reason for the death penalty to exist, someone like the Joker is the reason. It just flies in the face of all common sense logic repeatedly

[@reynellfreeman8761]

@@BirchTheGreat because has popular as batman is his villeins are way more popular and a big reason for that is how evil and over the top they are their like horror movie villeins it would be redundant to kill them just to bring them back because a big reason people read or write batman is to see his villeins

[@Shadwell678]

Don't listen to fans. Listen to customers.

[@nwoking666]

Denny O'Neill gave the fans who wanted Batman to be more like The Punisher with Knightfall. While Bruce Wayne's Batman did not kill (or let someone die), Jean Paul Valley's Batman did exactly just that. An entertaining storyline (well, Knights Quest was way too drawn out) that addressed the fan idea and showed the world why it needs a Batman. Smart writers/editors can do things like this via good stories, same goes with the social issue stuff (no matter which way you lean). Many of the modern writers in comics can't do this sadly.

[@matthewmilan6979]

I always imagined that the pause in Perch's videos were when a Texas driver cut him off and Perch was swearing, laying on the horn and flipping off some Texan.😂

[@adamfrey4920]

We had this. It was called the Grim Knight. It was Batman if he was the Punisher. The end.

[@yourarchnemesis8453]

Don't expect these comic "fans" to read anything. They rather just complain about it online and think they know better.

[@mrgeorgebushie]

Wait for it. Someone is going to say, "I'm a huge Batman fan and I want a gay Batman who kills."

[@InfamyOrDeath-__-]

If Batman was a one & done story then he could kill his villains, but since it’s a never ending story he can’t do it. You’ll soon run out of villains.

[@mattlinkous4356]

Honestly, if your description of what happened to Wild Dog turned out to be true, I wouldn't even be slightly surprised.

[@mattlinkous4356]

I think you pretty much nail it in this video. So many writers and editors don't think long term or even seem to have a basic functioning respect for who these characters are and what they mean to people. A classic IP is just a sock to be stretched over whatever the hell it is they'd rather be talking about.

[@feeWAIVER]

When I asked if for a racist Captain America, my monkey's paw curled back a finger, and Falcon and Winter Soldier aired on Disney+.

[@todd8398]

Your monkey's paw really understood the assignment.

[@HarlanEllisonlives]

They have made joker such a monster and mass murder it's a crime that batman doesn't kill him. His oath to not take a life has cost countless people to lose theirs it makes his oath invalid.

[@yarc9]

You have red hood your welcome

[@HarlanEllisonlives]

@yarc9 that's a laugh!!

[@feeWAIVER]

@@HarlanEllisonlives it's not Batmans responsibility to kill Joker. You can't hold that over his head. He has handed the Joker over to State and Federal Authorities many times. If you want Joker killed, stop voting for liberals.

[@reynellfreeman8761]

killing the joker now would not bring any of those people back plus it would just inspire joker fans to from a cult like in injustice and batman beyond hell think about all the times joker was though dead in the comics and that just make up a whole bunch of copycats

[@mathewsimoes2962]

I’ve had this argument with friends. My response has become, “Yes, realistically Batman not killing Joker seems irresponsible. BUT Batman doesn’t exist in a realistic world so the argument is kinda pointless.” Realistically, Batman would have caught the joker and he’d probably still be on jail or only break put once. Like in the Nolan films. He’s not breaking out every other week like in the comics. I do think modern writers don’t help much by having the Joker constantly commit acts of urban terrorism and then have other characters criticize batman for not killing him.

[@feeWAIVER]

Wild Dog showed up in Brave and The Bold maybe a year or two ago.

[@mrgeorgebushie]

Wasn't that Wild Hog?

[@clonegeek3317]

I wonder how much of people wanting Batman to kill is more reactionary to having too many Batman stories were that's played on has crutch. Just because it's important doesn't mean you have to bring it up all the time

[@Galvatronover]

that is more understandabe too me

[@todd8398]

Isn't that just Midnighter?

[@millernumber1]

Perch describing Si Spurrier and Tom Taylor too perfectly...

[@adamfrey4920]

"Don't listen to those fans." (Perch closes the video without a K-Pop bumper.) That reminds me, I've started watching The Fiery Priest, a K-drama about a Catholic priest who runs around punching criminals and corrupt cops. It's awesome.

[@AL-ws5yi]

Sounds awesome!

[@adamfrey4920]

@AL-ws5yi It's freaking hilarious when they don't cut to the priest's tragic backstory. Lots of amazing slow motion punching.

[@yourarchnemesis8453]

People who want a Batman who kills should just read the Punisher.

[@jbbrolic]

Or Ninjak or Shadowhawk or Nighthawk (much more direct Batman analogues.) Or Nemesis for a villain version etc

[@OnimenoJason]

If you want Batman to kill, just make a new character doing similar things. The thought you need to change old characters to fit a new paradigm is silly.

[@yarc9]

In dc you have plenty other characters who can kill Batman & Superman they don’t need too kill

[@comicalopinions]

Wild Dog has a multi-part story in the current Brave and the Bold series. It was a good story, mixing humor with violent action.

[@JonCrs10]

A Batman who kills is only desirable because of villains who need to die. Make the Joker what amounts to a public nuisance who fills parking meters with sealing foam, THAT'S how his villains need to be if he can't kill them. Otherwise you actively see Batman fighting to prevent even the COPS from killing his villains

[@JDPetty0990]

I think creators are too obsessed with subverting expectations without building a solid foundation for the story that makes sense. Somewhere along the way, creators felt that stories got too predictable. A good plot twist can help with that, but the important part of a good plot twist is that it should connect back to the established story in a reasonable way. I think writers should be willing to step back and focus on a good story, and let any plot twists happen in a natural way that makes sense with the story and how characters are established. Batman killing certainly subverts expectations, but how does it make sense of the years where he practiced non-lethal methods? Can it be done in a way that is not contrived? In an ideal world, stories that cannot reconcile this without contrivances would be turned down, and the author would need to either tell a story that fits Batman or find/create a character who would not be completely broken by this story.

[@clonegeek3317]

I feel like the only character you could really get away with having Batman killing would be Ra's.

[@MatthewLoh-ru1mw]

Yes. It's called FANFICTION

[@EvandroACruz]

@@clonegeek3317 Why R'as?

[@TorridPrime217]

Why is everyone acting like Batman killing means exclusively that that means Batman will be a murder-hobo?

[@Absolution-]

I just commented this on another video. Just have the state attempt to kill Joker by execution. Is he immune to chemical ejection due to being messed up? Is it actually clayface? Make a reason why he "cant" die or kill off the Joker for a good 5 years but it was off screen. (Like a guillotine, we only see the blade come down, not the beheading)

[@chadisnotachad]

Comic publishers do need to listen to the fans. They just shouldn't do everything the fans want

[@TheGuyInTheCheapSeats]

Why not do what they did in the forties and pull back on "the Joker as mad killer" idea? That way, Batman doesn't look so bad.

[@Jewell-5280]

last time i saw Wild Dog it was in Cave Carson has a Cybernetic Eye funnily enough He was a Right Winger in that idk if the writer was right wing or if he was trying to make fun of us, but Wild Dog was great in it

[@feeWAIVER]

A ghostmaker series would be cool. Put John Timms on the art, that man was born to draw ninjas.

[@EvandroACruz]

I believe that the true Batman fans don't wanna see him breaking your no killing rule. They understand how important this rule is for Batman and makes him a true noble and heroic figure. Killing should ruin his character.

[@davidgantenbein9362]

Batman who kills … isn’t that just The Shadow? On a more serious note: is that really a fan discussion? I have the feeling that it’s mainly an argument made by people that want to troll, but not really by people that actually read Batman. And where would be the benefit of Batman murdering the Joker? The Joker would still return as frequently as before, because he is a much loved villain, the explanations for his returns would just get more ridiculous, that’s about it. Hell, even Punisher doesn’t get rid of his more famous villains like Jigsaw, despite killing villains is Punisher‘s main stick.

[@Captain-Thievius]

Batman is a complete rip off of the Shadow. It’s been proven that Bob Kane was a plagiarist.

[@jamessimms3449]

Wild Dog was in Cave Carson Has a Cybernetic Eye. It seemed out of left field, but he was really awesome.

[@kidicarus2215]

I think Batman is just an idiot. Fine, he doesn't have to kill, but he doesn't have to put them in such crappy institutions like Arkham. If he's supposed to be (one of) the smartest guy in that universe, why can't he build a prison that they can't escape from? Get Mr.Terrific to help you, if you have to. Alternatively, he could lobotomize/paralyze the Joker. He's not killing him, but he's stopping him from committing any more atrocities.

[@yougottrolled5799]

Because you know it's fiction

[@Captain-Thievius]

If Batman had a brain, he would’ve given Two-Face the best surgery available and asked either Zatanna or Martian Manhunter to use their powers to cleanse Harvey Dent’s mind of the Two-Face persona. Heck, I still don’t understand why Batman doesn’t just make a deal with Mr. Freeze and Arkham Asylum. Have Freeze live out his sentence, but provide him with whatever he needs to find a cure for his wife since that is his only goal.

[@yougottrolled5799]

@@Captain-Thievius someone didn't watch batman the animated series.

[@Captain-Thievius]

@@yougottrolled5799 Wasn’t that Mr. Freeze’s goal when he found out Nora wasn’t dead? It wasn’t until season 4 when they butchered the character. As for Two-Face, what excuse is there to not do what I suggested?

[@yougottrolled5799]

@Captain-Thievius using magic would destroy the unique way of story telling some stories of batman like the batman live action are grounded. Having magic solve everything would be like a isekai anime using magic to fix clothes and houses. Fix everything it would take away the stakes of some things.

[@CRUCIFi777]

Mr. Fantastic getting cheated on would’ve just made the Maker faster, no?

[@adamfrey4920]

Perch, thoughts on IDW announcing today that they're kinda fucked?

[@JDPetty0990]

Justice for what they did to Star Saber and the Maximals?

[@AL-ws5yi]

They were screwed for a long time now. They are finally admitting it.

[@JP-1990]

Why doesnt Batman just have his own prison underneath the Batcave to store all the villains? Obviously Blackgate and Arkham arent cutting it.

[@BirchTheGreat]

Punisher 2099 did that. He had a panic button that gassed them all when they attempted an escape.

[@iconstatic4960]

DC had a series in the 90s called “Chain Gang War”, in which the Chain Gang did just that underneath a rich member’s mansion. They even managed to imprison Deathstroke. Azrael-Batman attempted to shut them down.

[@BirchTheGreat]

@iconstatic4960 lock up also did this in season 4 of the animated series. Turned an old ship into a prison

[@adamfrey4920]

Things I got yesterday: - Untold Legend of the Batman Surprise Treasury Edition - Redcoat - Ice Cream Man - Uncanny X-Men facsimile #131 - Batman Last Halloween Noir Edition These noir editions doing it for everyone?

[@folly6682]

Is redcoat any good?

[@Jewell-5280]

Yesterday I read some more 1940s Namor stuff. I've been reading that website Webtoon recently for DC the Zatanna story was pretty good The Red Hood was okay And I stopped reading the Batman Wayne Family when they had Tim Drake still be gay, but before that it was fun i guess as for non DC they have this series called Trailer Trash about a girl that time travels to her past in high school i really liked that one just read the first volume, they call it a season read the first volume of a series call Lady Knight also good stuff and read a volume of a series called Honbarian Which is also good and also, not a brown person in sight everyone is white it's great turns out it's made by a Girl in the Philippines and that's kinda sad Is the West really down this bad? That we can only get stories of white ethno-states from Filipinos fair warning these stories are all kinda girlie, that's the only way i can come up with to describe them, if that doesn't bother you, they're pretty good i've read some other stuff on there but they're kinda bad

[@adamfrey4920]

​@@folly6682My daughter likes it, so I really buy it for her. But it's decent from what I've read and it plays with twisted American history.

[@folly6682]

​@@adamfrey4920 Thanks. Unfortunately, since reading about American history is my other favorite passtime, I have a feeling I'd find a lot wrong with it.

[@Jewell-5280]

@@folly6682 i only read like 3 issues of redcoat i didn't like it much. And like i also didn't like the implication that the founding fathers were like into black magic and witchcraft and other occult things. i didn't like Einstein being there either.

[@troypeterson2156]

dont need or nec want him to kill. just for gods sake... make him a badass again. let him be a badass again!

[@AL-ws5yi]

Agreed

[@HobDobson]

The difference is that "ideas" meant to break the toys others enjoy are a dick move. If a writer/editor is bothered by who or what the property's fans are, that writer/editor is also a dick.

[@InfamyOrDeath-__-]

Your daughter is already reading “Made in Abyss”? That’s a pretty dark seinen manga, it’s actually my 2nd favourite manga ever, it’s a masterpiece. I think Bondrewd is one of the best villains ever created.

[@GrymmJymm]

You can still tap dance around the issue of this question and entertain it some while maintaining the line. I think you should have Batman reveal to someone how he has explored murdering Joker in his mind, even envisioned it. You can have it occur in a dream sequence or hallucination by the Scarecrow. You can have a psyche- out with Clayface. A good writer could even have Batman say that he HAS tried to kill Joker, without people even knowing it at the time, because Batman was looking for a way to have it happen through natural means rather than flat out execute cold blooded murder. Make it so that Batman just is too late to save him, or have an entire two years where he is this way, and reveal that the entire time he was just captured and kept sedated in a machine feeding him a mightmre version. I just said all this off the top of my head. Not saying I should write Batman, but if I can think of these ideas with minimal effort, you’d think surely the writers could…You’d think.

[@giovannimartin3239]

I think the last time I saw Wild Dawg was in Cave Carson Has A Cybernetic Eye

[@psnfailout000]

STOP BRINGING THIS UP!!!!

[@graveyardshift2100]

Simply put, most of us are old enough now to understand that killing is not in itself immoral. We know that sometimes you just have to do what needs to be done, and that a hero who explicitly isn't doing what needs to be done needs to be questioned. That, and literally the Joker is the only one we care about in regard to this, and it has been DECADES of the same exact unchanging story.

[@alejandro9829]

Damn people have become numb to killing the decision of taking is not easy and some people change once they take a life and are never the same

[@shenotski]

He did kill because he was a ripoff of The Shadow. They changed him to appeal to kids simple as that.

[@themultiversalmagpie7827]

I love gravity falls too

[@chrischreative2245]

The joker has killed 35,000 people. It’s not heroic or just to let him live.

[@zacharynewman3959]

I believe the “fans” that want Batman to kill are people who adhere to a post-modern ideology and believe in moral relativism and hate people/characters who take any sort of moralistic stance. Also, no! Publishers should not always listen to fans. Based on some of the conversations I’ve heard comic book fans have, I can say that a lot of fan ideas are terrible.

[@FlameForgedSoul]

Wild Dog's last appearance was in Future State, We believe. An amusing aside from the DC Database: "His Super-Power is Guns." It's not arbitrary, Fan Sentiment is fairly unwavering. Wes from TC can't stop yapping about The Batman Who Lifts unaliving people left and right, despite the book's narration making a point that none of the people he's maiming are in fact not dead. We are sure he's not alone in this tunnel vision. Ditto on Literally Everyone hating One More Day or Main Continuity Bats ending people. Also kind of hard to maintain a Rogue's Gallery if you keep permanently starching them all. As for you Perch, of all the fucked up things you've said and done...raising a _Swifty?_

[@garou12]

Wild Dog was in Arrow.

[@rammisalami]

12:03 I don’t think you need to watch msm to come to that conclusion 😂

[@marcreed1027]

He was in a short in Batman brave and bold I think

[@DIOBrando-ij2bp]

Batman changed to be like the Punisher, despite Batman killing villains in the comics decades before Punisher, or even the character Punisher is based on ever existed. I can get someone not liking the idea of Batman killing, even if it’s something Batman has done a number of times over the years, (and does in the movies) but classically Batman did kill, so appealing to classic Batman as a reason not to have him kill seems kind of funny. If anything appealing to classic original Batman is what you’d do if Batman killing bad guys is a direction you did want to go. I don’t see the big deal in letting Batman kill. The idea that it’s some line that once crossed is a point of no return and now Batman is going to be running around like some crazed serial killer that can’t stop killing is absurd. The sequel to Die Hard wasn’t John McClane acting like a slasher villain because he got a taste for blood in Nakatomi Plazas. Needing this or that villain to be around also isn’t really a good point. I mean, for one thing it might actually be nice if they stopped using the most well know villains for a change. But DC reboots things all the time, you could have a Batman that kills going guns akimbo for five years and then they reboot the line and have a whole new Bruce Wayne Batman that doesn’t kill and bring back all the villains that got offed. The villains also do no need to show up anywhere near as much as they do in the comics to be beloved memorable villains. The whole reason Mr. Freeze is one of Batman’s biggest villains to this day is all on the back of one episode of the ‘90s cartoon. There’s 85 episodes of Batman the Animated Series and the Joker only appears in 18 of them, he even appears to die at the end of one of those episodes before coming back. I almost can’t imagine Joker only appearing 18 times, some of which aren’t even major appears, over the course of 3 years in a comic book now. The ‘60 Batman show had 120 episodes and Joker is only in 19 of them. It feels like DC comics has driven the villains into the ground over the last 20 or so years with how much they use them.

[@EvandroACruz]

Batman just killed in your first year debut. From 1941 onforward he didn't killed anymore. Your no killing rule is 80 years old. Is a part of the character mythos.

[@tyshekka]

It's too late to make Batman a killer. I think it's not too late to reinterpret the characters to be more like they are on BTAS in behavior, so that among other aspects, Joker, who currently should be executed, isn't someone who successfully kills a hundred thousand people.

[@tyshekka]

Also Unbreakable is a very good movie.

[@tommyfishhouse8050]

Razorfist did a whole video on this. Death isn't permanent in comic books. There's nothing stopping Batman from killing the Joker, and then in a few years Joker coming back from the dead through a Lazarus pit, or there being a successor who takes on his identity, or Jokers ghost possessing someone (Batman Beyond and Arkham Knight anyone?) . The only think keeping Batman from killing are fanboys hung up on Batman never killing because DC comics decided to not have him kill back in the 30s so they could sell more lunchboxes, rather than keep the story internally consistent. There's no excuse for Batman sparing the Joker after he does something as morally reprehensible as say killing a baby.

[@reynellfreeman8761]

if batman kills he would be no different than the corrupt cops he became batman to fight and I'll say this again as popular as batman is his villeins are way more popular and big reason is because their evil and over the top like horror movie villeins a big reason anyone reads batman is to see him fight his villeins

[@plasticweapon]

this one is.