Ultimatum: The Worst Comic of the 00s? - Comic Tropes (Episode 90)

[@EdgeyvonKarma]

Ironically, the Ultimate Spider-man tie in to Ultimatum is what made me fall in love with the character. To see Spider-man choose to ignore Magneto and spend the entire event diving into the water over and over to save as many lives as he can was so powerful to 16 year old me that he became my favorite superhero. A horrible event highly influenced my tastes in comics for years to come in a positive way. Isn't that weird?

[@Double400]

Ultimate Spider-Man is my favorite rendition of the character

[@jimjim292]

That's the stupidest thing I've heard in a while.

[@ledge-magee]

Only because the overall product was bad, it doesn't mean you can't find some good in it. If they had figured out the plot before putting pen to paper, then maybe it could've turned out better. I guess you could say that the only character that was truly in-character here was Spider-Man, so no shade.

[@SonicTheFrenchHorn]

That's awesome.

[@Ghidorah96]

So unique. So brave. Here's your medal of honour

[@PainCausingSamurai]

The most bizarre thing about Blob eating Wasp was that in the Ultimate X-Men line, Blob is portrayed as a fairly sympathetic character. He's a bit of a slob and a member of the Brotherhood, but he was also a bit of a prankster and had an estranged daughter...

[@mythosinfinite6736]

@@sylviafalls3719 The fuck is your issue

[@mythosinfinite6736]

@@sylviafalls3719 Yes, be ashamed

[@iiirdvii840]

oh shit... I didn't know that

[@thecollector4332]

Sylvia Falls Rape is a fucking crime you maniac. People suffer as they are forced to do a sexual act against their own will, hurting them physically and mentally scarring them. If you think that’s ok, I recommend you to look for close mental institutions.

[@Doodlebugdude]

@@sylviafalls3719 I am reporting this comment to KZbin to get your account banned. You might think you are being edgy or funny or shocking, but allowing toxic views like yours to go unchallenged in the 21st century would be to acknowledge how some humans have not progressed. You disgusting piece of shit!

[@Awesome_Pichu]

Ultimatum, otherwise known as Everyone Dies because of Bad Writing

[@rosesske2551]

Chad Riggs And not just dying. Dying in some of the worst ways you could possibly imagine.

[@Awesome_Pichu]

Roses Ske And cannibalism, can’t forget that good old cannibalism

[@rosesske2551]

Chad Riggs Don’t forget, after this event Ultimate Reed Richards went insane and eventually blew up a large portion of Europe.

[@battlion507]

It's the equivalent of a very angry Dungeon Master who just go: ROCKS FALL, EVERYBODY DIES!

[@ls200076]

@@battlion507 lmao

[@kels4151]

Can’t get over how bad the Captain America artwork is behind him.

[@GabMacedoo]

Kelsey Wooten that’s a classic

[@HamsterK37]

Look at what is happening in the low left. Pretty sure that fat guy is about to get railed

[@m4k3r67]

He T H I C C

[@BlackStarGabusGaben]

@@HamsterK37 That's the infamous Ultimate Warrior comic where he erm... Does things to Santa Claus (the fat guy you're referring to) like beat him up, strip him naked and erm... other things apparently.

[@grey8478]

He has bigger tits than Black Cat

[@fuzzydunlop7928]

I have to admit, I kinda really like the "multiple-man suicide vest" concept. I'd like to see it explored in a much more competent piece.

[@JackedThor-so]

I thought that was a cool concept too. If they'd made a whole issue where the first half showed his actions and the second half dealing with the aftermath and discussing the mentality of suicide bombers, you could have really had something.

[@WildBluntHickok]

Really it was just the idea of Multiple Man being a bad guy. X-Factor v3 had a lot of great examples of different uses of his powers. He even accidentally killed a hydra cell while hypnotized because he kept doubling and didn't know when to stop. Squished everyone against the walls! Come to think of it, that same issue the hydra scientist pointed out that each double has duplicated clothes, so it's not just biological. Then they gave multiple man a gun and had him duplicate, and the dupe had the same gun. "Now imagine instead of a gun we give him an atomic bomb..."

[@lewisaino]

That could have been part of Civil War 1.

[@101Mant]

The Ultimate universe had some good ideas but quickly seemed to descend into trying to be as pointlessly edgy as possible just for the sake of it.

[@ComicTropes]

Mark Antill It became an issue of “What if” extended too long.

[@MachineFuckingHate]

I was loving the crap out of UFF. It was a good retelling of the Silver Age stories, in my view. And some of the cosmic stuff in there was really creepy.

[@ayrtonoddone8209]

It's just fucking depressing🙄

[@joshgulisano1863]

The MCU is sort of what Ultimate Universe should’ve been.

[@ironmaster6496]

Josh Gulisano Let's not get Crazy XD

[@g0atboy207]

How the hell did Nightcrawler drown? Dude, just teleport to safety!

[@slothbaby2104]

The water was anti teleport water

[@needfoolthings]

Safety was on screen only.

[@amuroray9115]

Because he’s blue and Sonic is also blue: Sonic can’t swim. Coincidence

[@turtleanton6539]

Or Angel

[@d-manthecaptain1382]

I like to think that he tried that but just teleported himself deeper

[@erikstrothers2679]

Loeb's son was dying/died during writing this, so I look at it as a situation where he shouldn't have been writing at this time. Marvel should have pulled him from the project.

[@WhaleManMan]

Erik Strothers Well, his son died in 2005 and he wrote this in 2008-9, so I guess that is sorta possible.

[@erikstrothers2679]

My apologies. That's what happens when you get information second hand and don't verify it.

[@1BlessEdYou]

Loeb's Ultimate books are almost supernaturally bad. Ultimates 3 opens with the Ultimates (and their robo-butlers) lounging around the mansion watching a pirated DVD of Tony & Natasha's sex tape that Wasp bought from a street vendor. Then, (still on the first page, mind you) Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch leave to go have incestuous sex. His whole run on Ultimates is full of batshit crazy nonsense like this. That said, if writing some of the absolute worst comics of the era helped him cope with his grief (and it's a big if) then I'm glad they got made.

[@2geliel]

@@1BlessEdYou as someone that never read any Ultimate books, that got my with my guard down, what the fuck...? That sounds like The Boys.

[@kennethsatria6607]

oh. So I guess he decided to rush it or intentionally kill it off?

[@MrJoshShinn]

It wasn't just his son. Michael Turner passed away June 2008 from the same cancer Loeb's son had. Loeb has remarked on how much he loved them both and how much their deaths affected him; especially the strength of character with which they both faced death. It hit him hard.

[@HasvenWorld]

"Hey, Jeff?" "Yeah?" "Can you find some way to tie up ultimate?" *Jeff's mind is filled with death and disturbing war images* Sure thing!

[@coolmuzt]

Why didn't we get Option B (Happy ending)? I mean, we already kinda had it just before B. M. Bendis departure from Marvel, but the rest of the heroes?

[@prisma6799]

Jeff asked Robert Kirkman for help

[@JoeyJojoJrJr]

@@prisma6799 Nah, Jeph just needed to read some Mark Millar to get that shitlord energy just right

[@jakenap7184]

Best thing to come out of Ultimatum is that splash page of Spider-Man diving into the water and saving people with JJJ watching. But that also happened in the pages of Ultimate Spider-Man which is my personal favorite Marvel series, so I’m a little biased.

[@ComicTropes]

Yes, that’s a great moment.

[@reptilprinceoflizardpeople5797]

Jake Nap heh. Splash panel. Because he's diving into the water.

[@joshgulisano1863]

Reptil, Prince of lizard people fun puns are fun

[@marcushairston4672]

JJJ was always a jerk to Spiderman but in ultimatum, that changed after Spiderman went diving into the water to save people while he was watching

[@joshgulisano1863]

Marcus Hairston i loved that. Ultimate Jameson actually wasn’t a terrible person. He had issues, but throughout the series he shows signs of being a good person and Ultimatum truly highlighted that. Also the decision to close the Daily Bugle after Ultimatum was really ballsy.

[@thelittlepasty8360]

this story also forgot how doom and thors hammer looked in the ultimates

[@andreydoronin6995]

I remember Doom looking like a metallic demon and got very cofused when saw that video with classic universe doom look.

[@codafett]

Yeah, why the fuck does Magneto have 616 Mjolnir?

[@NoName-ym5zj]

I loved Ultimate universe, but Ultimatum went a bit too far with too much deaths and just EVERYTHING being so dark and depressing.

[@MrBepis-qx5ye]

No Name ever read old man Logan?

[@NoName-ym5zj]

Yeah, but most deaths there occurred off-screen

[@jawki7339]

Marvel Ruins.

[@NoName-ym5zj]

Oh god don't even mention it

[@stephenking5852]

Ever read Invincible?

[@RosieTheRo]

imo the only death done right in this event was Thor's - it's heroic, in character, ties into his lore in a significant way, and gives him an appropriately climactic final battle. if this were in another context and Thor's death was the only one, it could have been remembered as an iconic send-off to the character in the vein of pre-crisis Supergirl's death fighting the Anti-Monitor. instead it's just another of the dozens of deaths in this event that only stands out because it was a satisfying end to the character, opposed to everyone else where it feels like they were offed just to fill a quota :/

[@bruno17289]

He didn't even die, he just banged Hella and returned back to life later.

[@StudioChojin]

I was the Production Artist on every issue of Ultimatum. Working with Jeph Loeb was difficult to say the least. Before the book would go to print he had constant last minute changes, which led to working many late nights. After the last issue we had a party to celebrate, but I ended up having to leave the party, because Jeph had more changes to make.

[@JamaalDaGreatest]

That’s actually insane.

[@concept5631]

I feel for you.

[@magentapurpleyap5566]

Was he grieving? I heard he lost his wife at that time.

[@concept5631]

@@magentapurpleyap5566 Damn. Poor Jeph.

[@rodneyholmes5260]

Yeah... Ultimatum sucked ass. The story was killing characters for the sake of killing them, and as beautiful as David Finch's artwork was, it couldn't save it. In retrospect, it was the beginning of the end of the ultimate universe.

[@WildBluntHickok]

It was supposed to be the end of the end. Then they saw the sales figures for issue 1 and un-cancelled all the books. I did kind of like how all the books now had to work around one third of the core cast being dead though. And it's where they first got the "Death Of Wolverine" story idea from.

[@arnahunas4048]

At least it lead to The Maker, which is pretty cool.

[@rodneyholmes5260]

@@arnahunas4048 He is. I wish they'd do more with him.

[@maxhydekyle2425]

I've always felt like the Ultimate universe was doomed from the start. It was just a flash in the pan idea to boost sales, but it just couldn't last when the main universe still exists.

[@kencoleman5007]

The term is "purge". Look at how many X-Men and Fantastic Four characters Loeb and Remender were brought in to kill off back when it seemed that Disney wouldn't buy out the live action rights to those franchises. The Romulus story was a 616 bloodbath trying to irreversibly deep 6 James Howlett, archnemeses of his, Wildchild, and the Calasantos sisters.

[@1128nesecret]

Rob liefeld captain framed on your wall? Bold move. I heard if you stare at his pecks for too long you are sent into the dark dimension

[@billtree52]

I think it's just a background for the show, since Liefields bad art is definitely a trope..hahha

[@WildBluntHickok]

"The Dark Dimension"? Is that what we're calling gouging your own eyes out now?

[@acidkyledaLSDj]

Triple D pecks Hahahah love robs art man , it’s so out there sometimes .

[@oldfan4049]

Hah, thanks, I lol so much!))

[@nr-dx4zz]

Framed with electrical tape.lol

[@nohbuddy1]

Nowhere in any ultimate comic arc before Ultimatum had severe gore or deaths before that. Sure it had some edge with the Ultimates but The Spider-Man stuff and Fantastic Four were pretty fun. Loeb ruined it.

[@chataclysm2112]

AmericanNohbuddy ™ The first run of Ultimate Spiderman is by far my favorite run in all of comics. It just did almost everything right. A mature take on established story arcs that was still fun.

[@joshgulisano1863]

The Ultimates was pretty mature and cerebral, and a lot of really violent stuff went down, specifically with the Hulk. But Ultimatum went way too far. Not good.

[@rosesske2551]

Not to mention this event contributed to Ultimate Reed Richards going crazy and becoming a villain.

[@joshgulisano1863]

Roses Ske well to be fair tho Hickman made that awesome.

[@VolkColopatrion]

AmericanNohbuddy ™ now sjws are raping the corpse of comics. I never felt more like a comodity than I did during "pride month".

[@Malidictus]

This honestly feels like snuff/guro fan fiction. It feels like a story made by someone who either got off on the murder and gore, or else was clinically depressed and channelling this through their work. In both cases, it also feels like the work of someone with profound disrespect for the source material and the underlying mechanics which made it work.

[@theleonpasta7336]

Three characters dying by being brutally eaten alive can't be a coincidence, and it makes no goddamn sense to happen, a character like Blob or even Sabretooth would never be cannibals, even if they might not consider humans the same species, it's such a gross and taboo idea that's just ridiculous, nobody while in the middle of a fight decides they want to fucking eat their opponent, not unless they were already doing that kind of shit long before hand, plus Hank Pym is a normal human with normal human sensibilities even if they're going with that excuse, why would he eat Blob (and therefore his Wife, The Wasp)? He wouldn't unless a shitty writer with a major issue or a weird fetish made him do it

[@backtoklondike]

@@theleonpasta7336 Cannibalism in the Ultimate universe is such a odd common occurrence. While Bruce Banner is still heroic, the Hulk is a villain in that universe. And Banner is a vegan so the Hulk decides to eat people. The ultimate universe goals was to make a more "realistic" and "gritty" version of the Marvel characters. But it ended up feeling a teenage boys version of what a dark and realistic story should be like. With even heroic character being jerks or motivated by clout or money, having a lot of needless violence and edgy content and lots of sexual stuff where it doesn't make any sense to have. While there was some good stories, the only good legacy the ultimate universe has, seems to be the Spiderman books. Especially when Miles Morales took over.

[@bwalker77]

I loved The Long Halloween so much, it's always the first comic I recommend when someone who doesn't read comics wants to get started. The fact that Jeph Loeb also wrote Ultimatum disappoints me to no end. I hated what Mark Millar was doing with The Ultimates, and his cynicism is IMO a big reason why the Ultimate line could not sustain itself in the long run. Trying to copy him was a dumb idea to begin with but the execution was a catastrophe.

[@DragonPrincess69]

I can’t stop staring at the background in the beginning. I don’t know whats worse Captain America or Spider-Man...is that super man punching testicles?!

[@mr.crazypants2707]

And is Sandman fisting Spidey?

[@namegoeshere5220]

Batman spanking a grown woman as another guy films it. Looks like the Riddler filming it.

[@Predator20357]

The entire thing is weird, we got a fat guy on the ground with a naked dude, Spider-Man getting spider fisted, Arnold and another dud bro-wrestling, Captain America the thickest of the land, Some dude dunking a basketball Superman punching Super Balls and Batman spanking a woman while a creep take pictures.

[@cafeeineaddicted8123]

@@Predator20357 The fat guy and the naked dude looks like it has a Xmas tree in the background, so I assume the fat man was santa and the other guy was stealing his suit.

[@Predator20357]

Cafeeine Addicted huh, that is weird

[@douglasbriel6103]

Blob eating Wasp was disgusting. Only time I ever threw a comic book out.

[@loganwithlightsabers3051]

Lol

[@wilymagician4679]

You weren't the only one when i look at ultimatum back when i was in middle school i stopped reading marvel ulimate comics and anything related to marvel until twenty eleven.

[@taylorlaubs8917]

i thought it was cool haha

[@ConTrollerNorth2]

nigga, grow the fuck up. Its a comic book

[@God_gundam36]

dafullclip it sacrificed story with edgy bullshit

[@HCC788]

Yeesh, that was rough. Comics seem to have a hard time getting death right. Characters either spring back to life, robbing the death of its meaning, or the death is meaningless to begin with. Why is it so difficult? Is it the idea of permanent change that scares them?

[@KasumiKenshirou]

One major problem with Superhero comics is that the people who work on the comic are constantly changing. One creative team will do something, then when the new people take over, they'll undo everything the previous guy did that they didn't like, and the readers feel like their time has been wasted.

[@KTF0]

I stopped giving a shit about continuity in the mid 2000s when pretty much every character went through the death merry go round and got retconned to death. Why do characters in comic universes even weep when characters die? I just now read archs and pretend they are self contained stories.

[@AscendantStoic]

Japanese manga seems to handle this a lot better, both death and permanent changes to the stories worlds, maybe it has something to do with the fact more Japanese manga (with few exceptions) have a starting point and a clear end, they don't have many running series that keep going for decades and keep getting rebooted (One Piece for example is long running series but it was never rebooted and when it end it will end for good). A good example would be Full Metal Alchemist, when death happens there it sticks and it has a clear purpose in the story, a certain death of a beloved character early on represents that pretty damn well (anyone who watched the anime or read the manga will know what I'm talking about it).

[@Avocado11]

+TheHunterWolf I can't think of a manga series that has an overarching universe with multiple writers working on different parts of it. Not something you can compare with Marvel and DC, you could compare manga with Image.

[@kyriss12]

Fables does a pretty good job with perma death even with there being an in story explanation for popular characters being able to revive from almost anything. Of course that's a stand alone title that didn't have to connect to anything, and while it is long running, it hasen't been around nearly as long as various superhero comics.

[@bronzeageancientone4844]

Ultimatum proved that Stan's vision of Spider - Man is still the best version of the wallcrawler.

[@godbobo9162]

The thing is this event could’ve worked really well. The idea of Magnito becoming fully radicalized to the point where he truly believes ending millions of lives mutant or other is interesting in a sort of MCU Thanos way. The Tsunami is devastating and the deaths of millions is heartbreaking just on its own without the hero deaths(which were not necessary given Spider Man’s book had done so much to build up that city that in killing most of it it has a massive emotional effect on the viewer) in the end Magneto being defeated by the realization that he was wrong from the very beginning and giving up is a good way to beat that character without a big dumb fight. If I could make changes, decrease the amount of super hero deaths has much has possible, have most if not all the hero’s focused on saving lives with Nick and Magneto’s confrontation and subsequent realization on behalf on the hands of Magneto being a stand off thing, hell don’t even kill Magneto, let him sit and suffer for his mistakes. Get rid of the Doctor Doom stuff and I think that would’ve made for a good story with massive stakes, and crushing tragedy, but an overall focus on trying to learn from the mistakes made to lead to what happened happening and hero’s trying to save lives more then anything else.

[@stigrabbid589]

Or keep Dr. Doom in it but have him do something different by saving innocent bystanders as he actually is as capable of good as evil.

[@psmgames5861]

@@stigrabbid589 Maybe even trying his best to protect latveria. He may be a villain, but that man really loves the country he rules over

[@kristinaneuner7058]

Could the violent deaths have been influenced by the flash in the pan Marvel Zombies craze that capitalized on showing the graphic deaths of fan favorite heroes? (I had stopped following this story by this point...)

[@mqfii8992]

Despite that, if you read the runs, the violence isn’t THAT grotesque. In the original volume (not the Ultimate crossover), there are 3 feasts, Magneto, Silver Surfer and Galactus. But In these 2 the panels kind of go PG-13. Even In a zombie story, the writters had some sense of taste.

[@thecollector4332]

MQF II Sadly they fucked it up in the sequels which sucked (mainly because Robert Kirkman wasn’t involved and the new writers just tried to emulate his style). The sequels were a plot hole-filled mess with a convoluted story, timeline and a bunch of unnecessary gore.

[@JacobMcBaggins]

@@thecollector4332 I though MZ3 with Machine Man was pretty fun

[@neet0burrit035]

I am completely fascinated by Ultimatum. The story of how this was allowed to come out, and how much of a train wreck it turned out to be is super interesting to me

[@darthsalad6211]

My theory is that Loeb just has a thing for gore.

[@willday9316]

darth salad Sorry, hit reply accidentally while scrolling.

[@paulheap1982]

darth salad then your theory is wrong. He doesn’t usually go for gore like this. My guess is he was told to copy Millar.

[@theblocksays]

Or perhaps Garth Ennis? Who does way more over the top blood & gore for the sake of such in his books.

[@itwastimeforthomastoleaven1919]

Thats actually a fucking fetish..

[@furioussherman7265]

darth salad Loeb wasn't even close to this bad when he wrote Hush or The Long Halloween.

[@nerofoxkrell]

The ultimate universe is like a pizza cutter all edge and no point

[@panthergod]

Horrible take. The work by Millar, Ellis and Hickman was generally great.

[@cjflan32]

With respect to Jeph Loeb, yes, I agree with you that his writing went downhill after his family tragedy.

[@MFDoomguy21]

“...Uniquely terrible comic book.” Marvel’s Civil War 2 would like to have a word with you.

[@ComicTropes]

I've got some videos about Civil War 2.

[@grantmoore8228]

Xavier Perez i haven't read civil war 2 yet but something tells me that it isn't as bad as the comic where a b-list villain killed and gruesomely ate a founder of the avengers for a shock ending to the first issue.

[@ironmaster6496]

Xavier Perez Lets NOT get Crazy, Civil war 2 was terrible it was really bad, but Ultimatum is on a WHOLE NEW LEVEL

[@nonagonfinite]

Xavier Perez Civil War 2 is bad, but at least there are some badass moments and some fraction of a meaningful story.

[@KentaroMiyamoto21]

Yeah, but this stinker came first.

[@Viewer-ld5rc]

So Doctor Doom died like a punk in the Ultimate Universe? Thats odd. Its kind of unbelievable.

[@ComicTropes]

They later retconned it so that this was someone else.

[@Viewer-ld5rc]

skunkape Oh, that seems more likely. That could also explain the change between the costumes in Ultimate Fantastic Four and Ultimatum. Was it a Doombot?

[@ComicTropes]

I think it was more convoluted than that. I think it may have been Sue and Johnny's brainwashed mother? It was weird, whatever it was.

[@Viewer-ld5rc]

skunkape I also don’t understand how Doom returned from the Marvel Zombies Universe. And the sequels of Marvel Zombies don’t even mention Doom. It’s odd. It almost feels like it was made by 5 different writers that had no coordination between their stories. Is the Marvel Zombies Universe in the Ultimate Comics different than the the normal Marvel Zombies comics? Jeez. This is making my head hurt.

[@Lonewulf321]

It was a Doom Bot

[@Shadow05eth]

Doctor Strange's death traumatised me for years

[@GenericProtagonist118]

This was one of the first comics I read when I was little. Let's just say to this day I hate anything "edgy".

[@gallibon1319]

I fucking hated that part so much.

[@constructivecriticism2568]

It feels like the title “Ultimatum” is a poor attempt at fitting the word Ultimate in the title, so you know it takes place in universe 1610.

[@yyalp]

the fact that this was written by the same guy behind Spider-Man Blue and Hulk Grey is absolutely nuts💀

[@SnakeRoadComicsOfficial3677]

Loab hasn't been the same since the death of his son.

[@Eyestudio11]

I think it could be seen as kind of a bold move, to not only kill a lot of heroes, but also make it so over the top brutal and disturbing (like Blob eating the Vasp). But as you said, it serves no purpose at all, it's almost like if it's there just to shock you or make you feel uncomfortable. Of course there are some ugly stuff going on in different comics, but to me what happens here actually feels like it doesn't belong to this universe at all.

[@joshgulisano1863]

Филипп М yea it felt like a MAX book because of how graphic it was. Ultimate can get away with darker stuff because it’s kind of like Wildstorm for Marvel. But it shouldn’t have been as explicit as this.

[@IIIdelinquentIII]

The blob eating wasp is fkn gross omg

[@Beelzebub066]

Agree that was so messed up

[@thesmashbeyonder5127]

After that I stopped reading the comic

[@TevyaSmolka]

This is why I am loving dc rebirth right now because dc rebirth isn’t this grim or bloody and isn’t mean spirited like this trainwreck

[@MrSafior]

LORDE OWS THE KING Oh what an edgy 14 old you are. You must be proud to talk like this to someone uou would never meet and who would never care of what you said.

[@NeroSeries]

MrSafior oooooF

[@MrSafior]

"?"

[@Senor21]

All new all different was as terrible as Ultimatum but for different reasons

MrSafior "oh noo, somebody called out one of us, better call them 14 year olds as if means anything" by the book. LORDE is right, grow a pair and stop being submissive numale (unless you already vasectomied yourself).

[@JVCS-b6z]

"Massively Killing your characters and/or replacing them doesn't make you a good writter" A lot of 2000's and 2010's marvel and dc writters:**SpongeBob throwing paper into the fire**

[@BroomPusher2024]

That panel of Dr Strange getting crushed is downright Disturbing.

[@michael.471]

This is like when the Inhumans was meant to supplement the X Men, despite how becoming an Inhuman is a conscious choice, which had many levels of wrong.

[@concept5631]

How could they not realize that was a bad idea?

[@michael.471]

@@concept5631 Money

[@concept5631]

@@michael.471 Still hilariously stupid

[@edward2962]

I wouldn't go as far as to say that the comic is dark because Loeb's son died, but there's no doubt that he'd become cynical about comics at that point. And I totally believe he was making it up as he went along. I think he was approached to do Ultimatium to kind of clean the slate for that universe, but instead of coming up with complex story, he went, "Bah, I'll just do this superhero snuff comic, the fans will think it's 'gritty'!"

[@theajshow]

There's some great insight here. While I mainly just read the Ultimate X-Men line (which I ironically, I really liked AFTER Ultimatum), I did see a lot of uncessarily negative things in the Ultimate universe, especially in the Ultimates series, so I guess it isn't too surprising that Ultimatum was so negative. Just everything from Hawkeye's family, the gross relationship between Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch, and all sorts of other things. I thought the Ultimate universe was supposed to be "modern", not just straight up horrible. Well, maybe modern in the sense that have the superheroes could be guests on Jerry Springer. They got to a point where it was less a "modern" retelling, to a "Ultimatizing" characters to be more edgy and dark. Like, they thought they didn't do a bad enough job of that in the 90's. I think the Ultimate universe had a lot of potential in itself, and really, only Spider-Man met that potential, not just Bendis' run with Peter Parker, but also Miles Morales.

[@glitchygear9453]

"modern" is usually just a buzzword for either "fits my personal politics and beliefs better" or "super freaking edgy as hell". Modernization is necessary for a lot of stories. But the word "modernization" itself is a buzzword with no true meaning.

[@lukedalton]

Peter was the only real hero of the entire setting (as the other were all edgelordy jerkass) and his (very fitting) death sacrificing himself to protect others being the inspiration for others like Miles to be the best hero possible is the most fitting legacy for a spiderman

[@MukuonChannel]

Ultimatum is like that one time Quesada thought it would be nice to have a dark and gritty story, but ended up being a slash-fic quality edgelord fest devoid of coherent thought. Ultimatum was a mistake, nothing more, nothing less.

[@k1ngk4gl3]

Without taking away from any of this analysis, I just have to say something... Electricity & Magnetism are the same fundamental force. Magneto is OP. Not only could he puppeteer Wolverine, he could be nigh-godlike in his abilities. From controlling any & every minute action of an Iron Man suit or Ultron bot, even if they were made of non-magnetic material; to causing neural misfires in a person's brain, thus inducing a seizure; to walking around as a living EMP; to shifting the earth's magnetosphere to attack any area with massive amounts of devastatingly ionized solar wind. Heck, if he wanted, he could hit Storm with lightning. So don't sleep on Magneto. He's legit omnipotent, most people just don't know it yet.

[@jorgeortizdelandazuri7318]

because he isnt used in that way. He hasnt been shown to use any kind of electricity related powers and he wont, because his thing is magnetism. Probably dont overthink stuff too hard, its comic book powers. In fact, if you want an explanation just assume that kind of stuff would need too precise of a use of his powers and something. He just, moves metallic stuff

[@projekt84]

Until you point a wooden prop gun at him

[@NathanCudgel]

I have noticed a big spike in quality on your channel recently, keep up the good work :)

[@ComicTropes]

Geek Workshop Thank you. I’ve been eating more broccoli. Maybe that’s been helping.

[@Rometiklan]

I had never even heard of this series. I missed the entire decade of 2000 when I stopped collecting comics. This storyline was entirely shocking and bewildering to me. I'll have to see if it's released as a paperback as a curiosity, but damn...some of this stuff seemed like Loeb was just going for cheap shock value. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. Great vid, Chris!

[@ComicTropes]

Rometiklan It was collected and released as a trade paperback but I don’t think a lot were printed.

[@KasumiKenshirou]

I saw some panels from one of these Ultimate universe comics where Magneto's kids were in an incestuous relationship. When a recently thawed out Captain America remarked that this was very unusual, all of the other characters strangely had no problem with this, acting as if Cap was a racist opposed to an interracial couple or something. It was really bizarre.

[@CButtonshaw]

@Rometiklan: please don't read it. Ultimate Universe was good UNTIL Ultimates 3/Ultimatum. I honestly think Jeph Loeb lost his groove after his son died and just started doing things BECAUSE.

[@lo1bo2]

After watching the whole video, all I can say is I'm glad I wasn't emotionally invested in these characters. Wonder what the fans thought at the time.

[@channel99productions21]

This fan thought it was awesome

[@bruno17289]

They hated it.

[@michaelramon2411]

The explanation I have heard for Ultimatum is that the plan was for the Ultimate Universe to be destroyed at the end and rebooted, with all the dead characters not in the new continuity. So there'd be an X-Men iteration that never had Charles Xavier and so on. But at something approaching the last minute, they changed their minds, which is why the Ultimate Universe comics kept going. I can't say that the original plan would have resulted in anything better, but it couldn't have been much worse, could it?

[@alexn8672]

There are times in which I'm glad that I never really got into the Ultimate universe outside of Spider-Man, like seeing that Hulk's raging hatred for Freddie Prinze Jr. is an actual storyline. Ultimatum is the epitome of that bullet dodging, as I can't really imagine just how much it would have hurt to have been one of the first Marvel fans to see Jeph Loeb mutilate over 30 iconic characters for cheap drama and because it's the finale so why not.

[@KasumiKenshirou]

Wow, I never thought I would miss the Comics Code Authority.

[@chka1043]

Bruh moment

[@Dreigonix]

That is the sick burn to end all sick burns. Aside from me burning this comic because it sickens me.

[@allendean9807]

David Finch is a fantastic artist, tho, and if you’re gonna have some crazy stuff going on, he’s a great guy to render the craziness...

[@ComicTropes]

His art is the best part of these comics but I also don't think it's his best work. Still, that's just one person's opinion.

[@AdamSMessinger]

I remember Superman/Batman #25 was the last issue of his run on the title and the first issue to come out after his son passed away. It was a sour ending to what had been a solid run. I tried not to think too much of it but Loeb just started cranking out hot trash with each new title after. On top of this, Loeb admitted his working process was to not start scripting the next issue until the previous one was fully drawn. So there indeed was an element of “writing on the fly”. This break down of Ultimatum was spot on. The ship of the Ultimate universe needed a captain but instead hit a iceberg instead in the form of Loeb.

[@malafakka8530]

I stopped reading superhero comics around 2006 and since then felt no real desire to start collecting them again because I became tired of their bad storytelling habits. Then there is Jeph Loeb who I liked less and less with a every series that he took over after I read Superman for all seasons (which I really liked). I think he would have been much more criticized if he hadn't been constantly paired with popular artists. So Ultimatum looks like the epitome of what I have come to dislike with superhero comics and writers in general. Guess I'll have to read it then to see for myself because your video made really curious 🤣 I think having read Ultimates 3 (because of Madureira's art which was the only good thing to say about it) last year is a good preparation.

[@pious83]

16:18 The worst part about that was that the relationship between Charles and Eric was _different_ in the Ultimate Universe. There were several instances wherein they are implied to have been working together, to some unknown goal. Clearly Loeb didn't get the memo there...

[@danusmc3]

Let's not also forget that the X-Men comics were created as almost an homage to Malcolm X and Dr King and the Civil Rights movement and the battle of African Americans in this country. To minimalize the X-Men in the comics, it kind of resonates in real life and almost a slap to the face of what Stan Lee and crew did, etc.

[@thecollector4332]

Daniel Cook Thankfully only in this sick universe mutants are an experiment. (Although in the old man Logan comics it’s said that mutants are just an anomaly).

[@hazzardalsohazzard2624]

@@thecollector4332 I think that's as a result of Ultimate Marvel attempting to tie many heroes origins together. Almost everything traces back to Captain America, Nick Fury and Wolverine. And in the early 2000s, Civil Rights movements don't really fit into the cultural zeitgeist that Ultimate Marvel was drawing from. Ultimate Marvel is talking about genetic engineering where old Marvel talked about nuclear weapons.

[@thecollector4332]

Harry McCusker You’re right.

[@elfascisto6549]

There's no evidence of the malcolm x and luther king connection.

[@snowrose3132]

Idk why this popped up in my recommendation but it was super interesting! I’ve never really read comics, but seeing that panel of Wasp getting eaten makes me so sick, that’s so gross it’s horrible 😰😥

[@Steef_Lee]

It was so bad. I was shocked it was allowed.

[@ranwolf7650]

For me, 1610 started off great, but as time went on the Ultimate line became more and more depressing, storyline wise.

[@crithon]

I'm reminded Loeb wrote Gorilla Grodd as a cannibal in an Ed McGuiness comic. But like, I really got the impression Loeb's writing is more what the artists wanted, and often times artists just wanted to just draw BIG SPLASH PAGES and flip the page and something new would happen. Like I never got the impression he would want to explore character dialogs or even then metaphysical philosophy.

[@ARMIV4]

This was the big thing that turned me away from the Ultimate Comics initially. Granted, I was real young when it launched, but even then the extra edge of this new universe wasn't appealing and Ultimatum was just overboard.

[@douglasbriel6103]

So bad, Bendis brought 616 Wasp back so we'd have at least one Janet.

[@reidwebb4621]

I just couldn't stop laughing at the comic panels behind him

[@whitegemgames]

I would like to see something like the ultimate universe tried again, a separate continuity or these characters that doesn’t need to go back to the status quo, let characters change, retire, make death permanent, show the next generation of hero’s rise and grow as many of the old character move on or stop. I know some of this has been done to varying extent, but I guess what I really want is a world that feels dynamic, growing, and changing rather then knowing things will go back to normal eventually, will probably never happen on the scope I want though.

[@malcolmburtley7724]

The artwork in the top left corner literally brought tears to my eyes 🤣

[@TevyaSmolka]

I hated ultimatum because it ruined the entire ultimate marvel universe and plus it was thanks to this trainwreck we lost the ultimate marvel universe for bullshit

[@TheZeroAssassin]

Agreed

[@tazzreviews1578]

I love the fact they Quicksilver says that Magneto has gone soft..... though he was responsible for killing most of the X-Men in the story and manipulated the earth’s weather killing thousands. The only thing soft here is the BS this comic expects us to buy.

[@truefanforum3273]

I think they went with Ultimatum because it's sort of a play ob words with Ultimate. But you are right, someone should have made an ultimatum somewhere in the story.

[@kentuckycryptid]

"In the regular Marvel Universe, Carol Danvers is half-Kree, and half-Human, and she becomes Captain Marvel, but in the Ultimate Universe, she's half-silicone." This line made me laugh way more than it should've.

[@nikytamayo]

The shame of using Madrox as a suicide bomber is that you have this wonderful mechanic that could make a full standalone story (strap a suitcase nuke on him and it duplicates with him, he could be the greatest weapon of mass destruction ever) that could be used as an event in and of itself.

[@truefanforum3273]

I was never really into the Ultimate line. From what little I do know about the Ultimate line seemed too gritty and dark for me, at least at some points. But Ultimatum sounds really gross, and you are right, pointless. They wanted shock, but in all the wrong ways. This was just a bad way to attempt to end the line.

[@ComicTropes]

You can read Ultimate Spider-Man and enjoy it on its own. It's a good Spider-Man book.

[@truefanforum3273]

skunkape Thanks, I might check out a few issues. From what I know it does seem like one of the better Ultimate titles.

[@TheJadedJames]

Not all of the Ultimate line was super dark. Ultimate Spider-Man is great. I also enjoyed Ultimate X-Men until about the 8th volume were it starts to get inconsistent and the grittiness takes hold. I remember liking the Namor arc of Fantastic Four but not much else. The Ultimate comics take on Avengers was done far better by the live-action Avengers movie.

[@Quiro26]

I think Jeph Loeb is a great writer but this series was trash.

[@thattypicalslimy8548]

@Robert Kenny I think he is implanted by DC to ruin marvel lol. His stuff with DC(long Halloween, hush,public enemies, etc) is amazing, but his stuff with marvel is pretty out there.

[@ianmcdonald6617]

Robert Kenny He was just a producer, not a writer.

[@jesusramirezromo2037]

He's either amazing or horrible, he's never made anithing in between

[@stefananderson6180]

His writing is just hit or miss (I know what you're thinking shut the fuck up)

[@TheZeroAssassin]

Have you read Ultimates 3? Yet more trash from this ...writer

[@christopherlee8989]

I'm just loving the framed bad comic book art on your wall. Fisting was heavy in the golden age eh

[@LorenzoVargas1981]

Some of these deaths were akin to Mortal Kombat fatalities, and the Ultimate line also tried to turn the Hulk into a cannibal too

[@reagansmith8406]

This is exactly how I feel with the newer dc animated movies , in dark war literally every character dies , becomes a robot or in the case of the punching bag Nightwing , goes insane aside from a select few. The ending is just so depressing cause everybody is just reset and we’re left with nothing

[@anythingfilmfan9753]

Ultimatum feels like a meal that lunch ladies force you to eat...

[@jernie9384]

What kind of Cafeteria do you go to ?!

[@redrumssam5888]

@@jernie9384 everyone died in his Cafeteria

[@ThunderTurtle7]

I definitely agree with the conjecture that huge continuities scare off new readers because I’m one of those people. It’s why I like non-canon stories like Long Halloween and separate universes like Ultimate. I also mainly buy my comics in volumes so that I can get context and a full story. I really wish more comic stories were contained so that new readers like myself would be welcome.

[@Snotnarok]

I've been making a scifi webcomic series for the past 10 or so years, I can say that when I was going through an awful part in my life that ultimately had me losing someone close to me- it affected my writing, my art. I wasn't trying for edgelord stuff or anything, but things did wind up being dark. I'm used to violent stuff because of the movies I grew up with in the 90s but still it was more graphic than it needed to be and the comic is still serious and bloody but perhaps less so these days. Now I have a second webcomic that's far more light hearted, colorful and optimistic to go with the scifi one.

[@CCaster2000]

The thing is that the Ultimate Universe could've been far better and the writers had something when they wanted to give a slightly grounded take of the Marvel Universe with a pinch of edge in it, but they went too far with the edge. I get this was the early 2000s where a bunch of edgelords were active, but even the writers had to of known they were going too far. And the funny thing is that the comics still continued after Ultimatum.

[@andrewmiller407]

Hank Pym biting the head off of Blob is swiped from The End of Evangelion, where Eva Unit 1 bites the head off of Gendo.

[@Awesome_Pichu]

Maybe instead of the silly explanation of altering the earth’s axis or something, why not use Thor’s hammer as the cause for the sudden storms? It would add a plausible explanation for that part at least, but then again the rest of the series needs an entire redrafting

[@jacksonbrickmedia939]

It’s weird that Jeph Loeb did this as he oversaw Agents of Shield which is my favorite tv show of all time.

[@luckyducky7819]

You hit the nail on the head with the over the top violence. Things can truly get to a point where gory things are meaningless or not shocking anymore, and ultimatum is a perfect example of this.

[@Crowley9]

When I read this myself, I thought it was intended that wasn't really Magneto who killed Xavier. First, he doesn't use his powers during that scene. Wouldn't Magneto be more likely to kill Xavier by skewering him with his own wheelchair or something instead of snapping his neck? Second, near the end of the story Magneto talks like Xavier is still alive. Who was the killer then? I guess Mystique would make the most sense. I actually quite liked the Ultimate comics post-Ultimatum. They seemed unafraid to do stories that drastically altered the characters or the world itself. Maybe they figured whatever they did couldn't make the damage any worse.

[@DarthWall275]

To be fair, eating Angel *is* something Sabertooth would do, and Dormmamu exploding Strange's head is awesome.

[@TevyaSmolka]

Oh also side note I completely forgot to mentioned the doctor doom in this story isn’t the real doctor doom but a imposter and who’s this imposter well it was none ever then Susan Storm and Johnny storm mom who the thing killed while the real ultimate doctor doom was trapped in the marvel zombie universe this entire time

[@ComicTropes]

But that was a retcon. When this was written it was intended to actually be Doctor Doom. That's comics for ya.

[@TevyaSmolka]

skunkape yup it actually happened in ultimate ff future foundation but in the ultimate marvel universe

[@TheIzzyNobreShow]

It’s pronounced “Mike Mallard”? I had no idea. Great video!

[@mione12gft71]

CARALHO, O IZZYNOBRE MANO

[@GlasgowDialectogram]

It isn’t. Mark MILL-ar.

[@Thebabybadass101]

This is still your best vid imo, I like your more positive content as well but you just so precisely pick apart what doesn’t make this work I love it

[@Zanosuke]

I was never invested to the Ultimate Universe, so when I read Ultimatum I just thought it was cool because it was SO different. So to me, as a standalone story, I actually enjoyed it.

[@ClarenceDass]

I remember buying this and reading up to where Wasp gets eaten by the blob and i just put it down and never went back. I enjoyed the First Ultimate Avengers story though. BUT all his as just too hardcore for me. Same reason i never liked Old Man Logan. Though I can see the merits of that book and why it has fans. Incidentally, the law of dimensioning returns and so many character deaths is why Infinity War left me feeling "meh"

[@vladimiradidas1945]

Clarence Dass when a comic is so bad that when you watch the ending of Infinity War, you cry from flashbacks instead of characters dying.

[@aarondrake69]

Love ultimate Spider-Man. Honestly in my opinion, a pinnacle of Spider-Man mythology. It's all at the same time familiar and expected and at the same time fresh and new giving quirky, creative new twists on things that made it worth reading. Ultimatum I've never had the (dis)pleasure of reading because of all the bad reviews. Which is disappointing cause I've always enjoyed Jeph Loeb's stories. It is very sad to me because the Ultimate universe brought me into Marvel (me being a bigger DC fan, but I fell in love with USM and its still one of my favorite comics ever). I love the Ultimates and certain arcs of Ultimate X-Men. But after this story the ultimate universe suffered a fatal wound that it limped off for about 5 years magically but never really recovered, sadly.

[@alexcardona4424]

No the worst comic of the 2000s is easily all-star Batman and robin by Frank Miller I could even make it through the first issue it's by far the worst

[@vladimiradidas1945]

Alex Cardona oh god. Plz dont remind me of taht abomination of a batman comic. The ONLY good part was seeing vicky in full fanservice mode.

[@GenericName86]

Nah All star is so bad it's good.

[@thibaldus3]

I loved it. It was so over the top.

[@julenliantrehe6780]

At least Jim Lee's art was pretty neat lmao.

[@TheDeathclawhunter]

that comic made me laugh at the absolute ridiculous way batman is portrayed. plus jim lee's art was top notch. i found it very entertaining and is actually one of my favorites because of how awful it is

[@bovinejoni4243]

If I remember correctly, my read at the time was that Loeb was just the sort of dork who would’ve viewed the Ultimate line (particularly Miller’s work on The Ultimates) as some sort of insult to the “real” characters and an affront to his childhood or whatever, and this all came from a place of genuine malice.

[@panthergod]

FACTS

[@christianreyes4104]

Randomly saw this video recommended, and I have to say this was an excellent watch. I remember reading this series in junior high and it was a very disturbing, almost needlessly sorrowful, story. I agree with every point. Awesome video overall!

[@christiaanbasson1181]

I hate the ultimatum comic ultimate spiderman is my favourite spiderman incarnation but they completely ruined the ultimate comics

[@p4rt_t1me_g0d]

Have you ever known victims of abuse? Sometimes they equate abuse with love and will stay with their abuser regardless of how much abuse is inflicted! It's almost like Stockholm syndrome, it's very aggravating for anyone who cares about the abused, and it's quite real! I've seen a couple outside of a bar arguing, the guy proceeds to rough the girl up to the point he's ripping off her clothes! A few of us guys step in and restrain the guy, the girl is pleading for us not to harm him, she's hysterical and crying! Worst part is, it's not the last situation like that I'd see, the result being mostly the same except for maybe once or twice!

[@yogbayden]

Who asked for this?

[@INCAnitysy]

@Davi Lopes He probably talks about Pym and Wasp

[@hyicrotai9801]

If mutnats were created in the 1940s does that me apocalypse doesnt exist in this story. And wasnt magneto a kid in ww2? That's just lazy writing

[@dmdoombot8796]

Hyicrotai They were turned into mutants in 1940 not born.

[@hyicrotai9801]

Courtney Davis so what about apocalypse? Was magneto turned by nazis then

[@tonyjohnson5669]

Hyicrotai apocalypse does exist. However, he seems to be a split personality of Ultimate Mr. Sinister who can transform into him.

[@hyicrotai9801]

Tony Johnson oh wow so they just changed a lot of characters backstories and origins just so nick fury can bitch slap magnetos pride

[@TheJadedJames]

This is an alternate universe. I didn't read Ultimate X-Men all the way through, but I do remember an issue with Mr. Sinister wherein Apocalypse was just a voice in his head. In the Ultimate Origins comic they show that Wolverine and Magneto were the first mutants created as an off-shoot of the Captain America super soldier program, and the mutant virus/gene spread on from there

[@archonbasileus4249]

1) Lovely view from your home! 2) Despite the violent ending, I loved the fact that the hammer re-emerges during the War of the Realms saga. 3) It doesn't have to end violently, but I consider if it wouldn't be way healthier for comics if each series - and each generation of characters - actually didn't follow a story arc that had an ending. That would allow for new characters, new themes... Of course, movie rights and such assets might suffer at first... But I'd rather have great stories to read.

[@johnnydaforge1299]

This reminded me to DC´s Justice League Apokolips War, but thank god, that one doesn´t have weird canibalism

[@ArticulatedDoom]

On your theory about Loeb...something like that definitely affects a person. As an artist and someone who went through such an issue I can tell you it definitely affects your creative output as well as your creative tone and style