Commander X16 2023 update

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0:00-Fundraiser results
1:00-Production issues
6:34-Fake Yamaha Chips
10:41-The Case
11:43-Cartridges
14:12-New Software
15:56-Game Console Version
16:55-Q/A when, where, how much?
21:39-Q/A Gen-2
24:15-Q/A Famicom carts
25:25-Q/A Competitive gaming
27:35-Q/A Network adapter
29:52-Q/A coding on the system
32:19-Q/A use as music
33:15-Q/A HDMI
35:19-Q/A Why use SNES controllers?
37:41-Q/A Why not use Z80?
40:31-Q/A what happened to $50 computer?
41:31-Q/A Will it run Doom?

[@pcsand]

I used to work in electronics manufacturing. We used a wave solder machine (rather than a dipper) and it was leaded solder, so lower temperatures... However, the wave soldering machine had a preheat, a flux foamer, an air blade (to clear excess flux) and then the solder wave. The boards were held on two sides with a fixture that had channels on them that the boards slid into. If you tried a fixture that clamped the board into a channel on each side, it should massively decrease your fixturing time. The boards we ran had snap-offs on the sides that slotted into the fixtures, so there weren't component clearance issues. If you want more information, feel free to reach out.

[@evancourtney7746]

Spent a summer running a wave solder machine, it would take up David's whole garage! Not to mention his whole net worth.

[@JeffTiberend]

Yeah. I spent a year working at a plant that used a solder wave machine. Mass manufacturing of circuit boards can get very complicated. Having the sides of the sides of the circuit board snap off is very common. Also, having the frames that are designed to guide a board through can help.

[@Artiken1]

Even though I have an AA in EE. I worked as a security guard at Litton Guidance and Control. They had a "wave soldering station" which instead of a flapper creating a wave to cause the solder to rise to the board level. It had the boards float above the solder and then turn to a 30 degree angle to pass a "waterfall" of solder. The solder was pumped, similar to an oil pump in an engine, up a column which created a waterfall of solder. The boards would then pass through this waterfall of solder. Making the total time the board and component passed through the solder to as little as 1 second. Vastly reducing the time the components were exposed to solder temperatures. And had a 100% successful solder rate. I was impressed that they were able to do double sided boards. The components held in place with small blobs of epoxy before soldering while using the pick and place robot. I considered this third generation wave soldering. It is sad that the x16 dev team was sold a 1st gen soldering solution. I fully understand the problems and fixes. It is sad that they have to fight to solve the problems that have already been solved in future generations of soldering machines. Congrats in solving these mfg problems. I am sorry you have to deal with this "old tech" problems. I fully understand that switching to 'current tech' would cost way to much' to keep up. Impressive that you could solve the problems.

[@kuro68000]

This probably won't work in a garage. As well as pre heating it needs moisture control for the process to result in good consistent joints. As others have mentioned the PCBs need to be designed for clamping too. If you need help getting them manufactured in China I have done it before. It will be cheaper and they obviously have high grade equipment and a lot of experience.

[@CB3ROB-CyberBunker]

can just run a tractor belt pulling the pcbs through a solderbath. wave soldering is more to limit the heat exposure to the pins and epoxy of the pcb itself but as all that stuff from the 1960s still works fine i take it there is no problem with heating the whole damn thing to 360C or so :P (also that's exactly what an smd oven does too either way :) LOL. wave soldering is overrated bloat :P (that probably doesn't give that nice of a result as a proper solderbath anyway, more or less guaranteed to fill all vias and pads and not skip a few)

[@anschelsc]

You can tell David used to work in tech support, because unlike a lot of designers he's very sensitive to the "if it's possible to do it wrong, the user will and will blame us" issues

[@michaelblair5566]

I've been in tech support for 27 years. This is exactly right.

[@JoeBurks_1]

I designed my own X16 hardware and, with permission, sold 7 of the boards I had made. Most of them were sold as bare boards (except for VERA) with the buyer responsible for assembly. I only sold bare boards to people who I felt confident had the chops to assemble them. All but one of those bare boards has now been assembled, but every one of them required support. I don't think I misjudged the people I sold my X16 boards to; I think it's just a very complex project for a kit. I don't think that I would do a kit like this again; I would have spent less time if I had assembled every one of my boards myself and only sold them as assembled systems.

[@gargaj]

Yeah but then why is the cartridge port rotationally symmetrical? That just means you can put the cartridge in both ways.

[@pizzaivlife]

I mean as far as a design goes, you want to try and help- the person trying to use the product is who you are trying to make it for, so if they are confused, the design can be improved

[@ironcito1101]

Good design should be "if it can be physically connected, it's compatible", and vice-versa. It's bad enough if it harmlessly doesn't work. It's really bad if hardware can be damaged by joining two matching connectors. It's horrible if there's risk of injury, fire, etc, which I've seen in a few cases.

[@willrsan]

I work for a contract electronics manufacturer. That you are trying to hand place SMT components is incomprehensible to me. Our pick and place machines can place 10's of thousands of components per hour. Then we have automated optical inspection machines to find errors like missing or misaligned components. Then there is automated testing of the assembled boards. I don't think you have realized the scale of the task you are trying to pull of.

[@Alchemy-yr3sw]

I design electronics for manufacturing, of similar design complexity to this device. Designing for manufacturing is a big step above designing for hobby work, and IMHO it would have been a much better use of their funding to hire an experienced professional to explain the basics of board manufacturing/assembly, DFM/DFA, and best economic practices for manufacturing at their scale. Heck, I'd be one of many happy to offer that advice for free to support an interesting project. For a run of 100 boards of this complexity I'd expect automated SMD assembly, hand soldering of a couple SMD ICs too rare for automated assembly, hand placement of THT, and selective solder. All with proper inspections in between. All on a board that has seen proper review for issues that might be nothing in ones and twos, but will cause a substantial rate of defects in tens and hundreds. It's unfortunate that the board might have been much closer to the original price if only the assembly process was planned out by someone who knew what they were doing.

[@justinth963]

@@Alchemy-yr3sw You should send them an email offering to go over some of this.

[@wphanoo]

I totally agree on that, spending hours soldering components by hand for these large boards is NUTS. Even with through hole being more expensive, I'm pretty sure it would be cost effective to ship all the parts to PCBway and let them handle everything. But i'm mostly disappointed by the lack of coherency and vision on this project, please design ONE system with well-thought parts and features and stick to it. Stop imagining different versions, expansions and whatnot, what you really need is one model and only one.

[@cazey000]

I will buy whatever he makes. I'm excited!!!

[@telesniper2]

@@wphanoo Depends on your experience in doing this. I used to do hand soldering professionally (J-STD-002). If you optimize your process for good workflow you'd be surprised how many parts you can churn out, and with quality joints. I used to crank out hundreds of PCBs per shift. This was stuff that went into military ground vehicles and the AH-64 Apache. Actually at the low to mid production numbers, it's more efficient to do it by hand if you know what you're doing. Especially with SMT. It's not worth messing with contract manufacturing unless you're talking about tens of thousands of boards. If you have properly masked boards, and solder paste stencils, and pneumatic parts picking tools, and a rail system for the boards to queue them up for the reflow oven, it's pretty quick. I've even done things like had SMT parts jigs and multi nozzle pneumatic pickup tools. The SMT parts are placed into the jig, which is just a plastic mould that holds all the parts physically the way they will go on the board. Then the multi nozzle tool is used to pick them up from the jig and place them on the board. So say there's like 20 parts or something. All parts placement can be all done in one manual operation! You can even have fiducials to line up the picking tool to the board. I designed tooling like that to crank out boards that went in South Korean F-5 fighters. I could crank out like 300 boards before lunch doing that. And it's fun! The Pick and Place machines are cool and all, but only necessary when we're talking 100,000 of boards etc

[@marklewus5468]

Before most of your viewers were born I was lead engineer for a company that did PCB assembly in New Jersey. We found that dip soldering did not work well with large boards due to warping, which not only leads the poor joint quality but greatly stresses the copper traces. We instead used a flow soldering approach where the solder is pumped over an edge, creating a flow wave across only one dimension of the board. As you move the board over that flow point, it gets completely soldered. This greatly reduces the tendency of the boards to warp and improves the solder joint quality.

[@honolulublues5548]

Wave soldering is the way to go, although it looks like they have limited space for that type of equipment, unless they make them smaller than what I'm used to working with.

[@jameswilliams7183]

I imagine a wave solder is very very expensive.

[@AviaryAviles159]

Sensei 🙏 (virtual bow)

[@bobweiram6321]

@NRGY I have a hard time believing it costs more than $50/pcb to assemble DIP packages. Doing it in-house is just dumb!

[@Okurka.]

@@bobweiram6321 Maybe Texelec wanted a solder dipping station for his own use and it got paid for by Commander X16 funded money.

[@edminchau811]

I've been working on a 3d first person game engine for the X16 for the last ten months or so. The hard part has turned out to be the map designer program, but it's coming along (please stop with the breaking changes though, please!) and I should have something to show in a month or two. It won't be Crysis, but it's definitely more than Wolfenstein. I worked at a couple of PCB manufacturing plants in Calgary about 20 years ago, Sanmina and Interalia. Either one of these places could assemble a VERA or X16 board in a matter of minutes. The big Fuji pick and place machines I was running at Sanmina could place 40 thousand SMT parts per hour. You really ought to reconsider using a manufacturer rather than trying to set up a factory yourself, unless you're planning on also building boards for other people. It isn't just the machines that you need, it's also the conductive floor wax and ISO 9000 standards and antistatic smocks on everyone involved and a hundred other little things that make the difference between a product that's reliable and affordable and one that is not.

[@Brian-vs9sd]

These are all great points. It will be a lesson learnt when there are high fail rates on the boards.

[@zilog1]

how about no. you are missing a key point of the project if you say "might as well get someone else to do it for you". its meant to be a more personal thing.

[@cptnkrenon]

​​@@zilog1 They are literally planning to manufacture hundreds of X16s. It's way beyond the scale of a personal project. You have no comprehension regarding the scale of this task.

[@DailyCorvid]

Please have a stealth system, wolfy was good but the enemies needed to be easier to creep past.

[@thecorruptedbit5585]

The board production troubleshooting and machinery can be used to assemble future TexElec products, and/or simplify the assembly of current ones

[@Vermilicious]

Oh boy, when I first saw hand-soldering I was honestly shocked, and just imagine what the cost would be then.

[@Okurka.]

I'm curious what the hourly rate was that Texelec charged.

[@crowbarviking3890]

I wonder what kind of "logistics nightmare" was supposed to exist when handing it to a PCB assembler... I work at a PCB assembler and the only "logistics nightmare" I am aware of right now is the scarcity of some parts. We either buy the components ourselves according to the customers BOM, or the customer buys them and sends them to us... That would also have removed the issue with the YAMAHA chip.. as an assembler i know which suppliers have real stock and which ones lie. It is the nature of component "Brokers". They check inventory of smaller brokers, note what is available, do NOT update it frequently ... So they do not know if the parts work, or even still exist. That is why it is important to know your component brokers, so you can estimate if what they say can actually be true. Same goes with the PCB...we either buy it ourselves or get it from the customer. The only logistics nightmare i could imagine would be overseas transport after assembly.. which would require good packing, but that is not really a "nightmare".

[@dennisp.2147]

Ideally they could have the whole thing built at an assembler, PCBs and all. Have the passives and sockets for the thru-hole stuff installed there and then populate the board with the unobtanium parts when they get the product in Texas.

[@joeambly6807]

David thinking that getting an assembler to build the board at an assembler would be a "logistical nightmare" while doing it in house would be "easier" really let's us all know he has absolutly no expierence manufacturing hardware. That's the largest beginner mistake everyone makes once. :-)

[@Sun-ut9gr]

Managing board flex/warp is a pain even for the most experienced enginerds. Main thing I’ve seen in wave solder fixtures is that they’re made of a high-temp black phenolic laminate material that doesn’t warp at high temps. They typically use clips made of the same material which are held down with springs and screws. Hope you get it sorted soon cause you’ll be golden once you do!

[@JaiCockpit]

We cooling same time with nox2 Gas the PCB fromm top, No warping and Solid solderpoints!!!

[@ImpetuouslyInsane]

Enginerd? Watch AvE, do we?

[@Renville80]

Another reason for those solder wave 'sleds' is to protect all the SMT parts on the solder side from the wave of solder (one could use adhesive to hold the parts on the board, but that's another kettle of fish).

[@daniloxyz]

Warping on such a big board is expected, and can be managed. Use hatched ground planes/pours and try to keep a constant copper density across the board. At this point, it may be faster to ask PCBWay for a re-spin of the motherboard rather than keep fighting these issues.

[@Dsun4456]

Why he should have used a professional mcad program to design the board. He could have tested the prototype design using thermal flow analysis.

[@iamdarkyoshi]

I work at a PCB assembly plant here in the states. Would be really cool to see the X16 take off to the point of mass production.

[@mikesilva3868]

Cool 😊

[@MacNifty]

But you know working there how many boards you pump out. Those one hundred boards would be done thirty minutes full stencil set, solder paste, chipset, xray, cam and op test, wave solder, debug, conformal coat and Tada!! What state are you in? I am in detroit and it is very limited here with pcb production. Is warwick controls and other companies I worked for in the nineties Where it was still through whole technology and the start of Surface mount. And I worked for magna and holly but it's like an hour and a half drive. We were making the intelligence for cars. More like the spy. It harvests so much data it's ridiculous no one has an idea at all. Not the dealer not even the manufacturer itself unless you are? Part of the design and security team and whatever else... But i'm trying to find somewhere else because I quit that job being so far away and all of the I75 construction. The ozone system, UV binding and curing and just the whole environment was really clean and it taught me also how covid mandates were a joke. Or anything leaking from a lab. We had four doors. We had pressure and vacuum, electrical discharging floor and air. We also had to wear special smocks gloves shoe coverings and headcoverings. For a computer chip!! Already assembled. It just needs to be mounted to the board. So I laugh at anybody who followed any of this whole pandemic over the last three years because Us inside of these high technology production factories have Greater measures than the supposed lab that leaked the virus.

[@MacNifty]

We were placing forty thousand chips an hour.

[@nneeerrrd]

Knowing this leftists retro-commie-community I bet they will place their order with CCPway 🤮

[@nneeerrrd]

Yep, as I wrote even before watching the video - they will rather give money to Chinese communists than to their fellow Americans.

[@RicardoRamosRetrocomputacao]

Man I went through this many years ago, I almost did exactly that (buy all the machinery and produce it myself) my idea was to create a mini 486/pentium for the home user, at a low cost. I faced the same problems, and came to the conclusion that a SoC system is more viable, and that the real secret is a very well developed and accurate emulation software.

[@pedromascarenas]

When I worked with CNC machinery (robotics) here in Brazil, we had a software that perfectly emulated a Pentium 166Mhz with MMX instructions, running on a small fpga motherboard, this board had a pigtail that took up to some PCI 32bits and two ISA 16bits for connection of proprietary boards that controlled assembly robots. I believe that was the ideal solution for your case. It was fully developed by the company I worked for. Unfortunately it was used only for industrial machines, and (at the time) it was patented, the patent was valid for 30 years, there must be another 12 years of patent now. This was developed, because from 2005 onwards, new motherboards that support socket 7, isa, bios compatibility, especially with ms-dos, were no longer available. It was developed to meet the needs of a group of customers. I always thought it would be awesome to see that in a little cabinet with a segment display showing 166, and running duke nukem 3d.

[@reviewaccount469]

If you are going the emulation route, an FPGA solution is way better than software emulation, and they already have one called the "MISTer FPGA".

[@leonidas14775]

@@reviewaccount469 The MiSTER is really expensive; I'd like to see someone make a costed down FPGA retro gaming system. Like an Analogue Pocket but RBP form factor and cheap. One could buy a bunch of old Android streaming boxes and flash a custom firmware with emulators on them (as some have done) and regular joes won't care if its perfect.

[@pedromascarenas]

@@reviewaccount469 Unfortunately mister is expensive (I can buy a pentium 2 in perfect condition for the same amount used in setting up a mister the way I want), and it doesn't quite meet the ideal. They built it to look like a raspberry, and that small size limited it a lot, so the average user needs to spend more money on hundreds of adapters to make it an easy-to-use computer. The correct thing would be an FPGA card a little smaller than ITX, but that has a native solution for PCI and ISA, many people like to use physical hardware in these things

[@OpenGL4ever]

@@reviewaccount469 A Software emulations wins, the only thing you need is I/O virtualization and a second keyboard that is passed through the guest system and thus ist completely dedicated to your emulation. Reason : The host system's keyboard configurations interfere with playing more complex games that expect specific keystrokes. Also the DOSBox or any other VM or Emulation's default keyboard settings can get in the way and modifying it each time requires work. With a dedicated keyboard, these problems vanish.

[@winstonsmith478]

One of your original goals was to NOT use out of production parts. The fact that you didn't comply with that really came back to bite you.

[@carlos-teran]

I was thinking exactly the same.

[@prk55]

I think there were some relatively early decisions that have made things much much more complicated. And development getting sidetracked that has delayed things. I won’t go as far as to say that these were mistakes because it’s easy in hindsight. But the X16 has turned out very different to how it was originally described.

[@gargar165]

I audibly yelled WTF when he said that

[@KabelkowyJoe]

Indeed Agon Light 2 Z80 based "dream computer" autor pointed out that here kzbin.info/www/bejne/o6jRf3inaMppmdk

[@DailyCorvid]

I am still buying it, it's absolutely perfect really - when they solve these absolutely standard development issues and release it, I have no doubt he will sell out quickly. It's a fantastic computer, I am amazed people are complaining. The problems with the sound interface are not tough to solve, and if it puts the price past what you are willing to reach then you will just have to miss out on one.

[@lelwani]

Honestly this makes me appreciate the production scale and efficiency of modern day computers so much more. So many things I never would've thought of on my own to into producing a computer.

[@bfapple]

Having worked at a manufacturer of Raspberry Pi add-ons; productionising your boards is just as important as the electrical design.

[@worldcitizenoss]

How modern day computer Mainboards are build is not like this. This is a multi miljon $€¥£ industry. It's nearly 100% automated. Therefor much cheaper labor costs. But the investment is very high. At home and if you produce 100+ Mainboards this is not possible.

[@Breakfast_of_Champions]

@@worldcitizenoss This. It's all integrated in one automated factory that took expert knowledge and _many_ dozens of millions to build. EEVblog visited an Aussie factory that is (of course) technologically way behind PCBway, and the machines were still impressive industrial robots. Basically you would order production runs of hundreds or thousands of boards, with all parts readily stocked at the factory.

[@berni8k]

The production should have been outsourced to a PCB assembly house. This is a HUGE amount of work that the PCB assemblers already have automation for. Yes the big ones will only talk to you for 10000 boards, but smaller niche ones will produce 50 boards at a price cheaper than your time is worth.

[@SteveJones172pilot]

I agree.. the transparency they have in this process is giving us insight into why this doesn't happen all the time. I worry that they may be stressed to the max, and would have given up long ago if they didn't feel the ethical need to produce now that they have $80k of other peoples' money. I hope they dont concentrate so much on low price that they end up having worked for 4 years for nothing. They deserve substantial reward for this effort and commitment.

[@OzRetrocomp]

That was a very interesting update. Thanks for being so open and upfront with where things are at. I get a sense that the Commander X16 has pivoted more towards gaming and away from general hobbyist computing, which is fair enough given the X16's capabilities and current development focus. All the best for the X16's future, and congratulations for making it this far and pushing through all the challenges that have come up along the way.

[@hartzogLovesScience]

As I read the post, the developer board holds onto that promise. But giving the option of a gamer’s package makes sense too. I may want to have both options, because I don’t know where my meager programming skills are currently.

[@BenHeckHacks]

As someone who has been doing this sort of thing for 20+ years, I'd strongly suggest fast-forwarding to the part where you sell these as kits. Let the end user do all that hyper-expensive PTH soldering and scrounge their own Yamaha chips.

[@Okurka.]

And call it the EVO-X16

[@giornikitop5373]

as was pointed at the video, providing support for a kit that has so many components and requires very good soldering skills and knowledge, is a nightmare. most ppl who think they can do it, they really can't.

[@Allen.Christian]

@@giornikitop5373 Most hobbyist computers are sold as kits, and most hobbyist who buy said kits understand that the onus is on them to put the kit together properly. That's part of the appeal. Just because he said it in the video doesn't mean it holds any actual weight. This is, once again, a bizarre bit of reasoning to justify a mismanaged project.

[@giornikitop5373]

@@Allen.Christian maybe, but if you sell a kit, you must be ready and willing to support whoever buys it, good with soldering or not, because everyone will claim that they know what they're doing. also, ppl with actually good skills, have sometimes trouble getting these kits to work.

[@Allen.Christian]

@@giornikitop5373 If you sell anything you have to be ready and willing to support it. Honestly, you almost certainly need more availability for support with this amateur production method than you need to support the people who buy kits. It's a nonsense argument.

[@Nicoya]

What you're missing in your soldering setup is a solder pallet, which you've kind of partially recreated. The pallet will hold the board flat, mask off areas that you don't want solder on (SMD areas, edge connectors, or unpopulated thru-holes that you don't want filled), hold down large THT components, and so on. Others have mentioned that wave soldering would cause less warping but since you already have the dip station it's probably worth doing your best to make it work rather than buying a whole new machine.

[@Canthus13]

heh. This whole thing reminds me of the old school 70s startups. Hand assembling, taking COTS parts and relabeling them before getting tired and tossing the stickers in for the end user... I love the feel.

[@thecorruptedbit5585]

The CPU and price also line up with a Late 70s Minicomputer - here's to hoping that the second part comes down soon

[@Canthus13]

@@thecorruptedbit5585 How do you figure? The Apple I was 666 dollars originally. That's like 3500 bucks today. A PDP-11 back then cost 20k, or 111k USD today. You're orders of magnitude off there, bruh.

[@thecorruptedbit5585]

I had the nominal price of a microcomputer in mind. $500 gets you a lot less value today, but also a lot more computer!

[@jerryspann8713]

Fifty years late.

[@keyboard_g]

They are constrained by choice, not parts. Example the Agon Light launched recently. Its $50. It uses a z80, no fpga, no out of production parts. You can buy them pre-made or kits and from many manufacturers. Every part of it is open source, firmware, software, the board layout.

[@stolz_ar]

In your Commodore TED series video you mentioned how models with less memory were the big issue that dragged down game development for the higher end models. Making the console version of commander X16 have less memory is a mistake. It should be the same system. In fact you could make the console have one expansion slot on the side, like the Sega Genesis, to add an external module that grants the system expansion slots and other capabilities that are on the power user model. That way somebody can start with the lower cost console and at some point buy that module if they decide that now they want the full experience.

[@cameron719]

I definitely agree - thankfully this should be possible on the gen2 system 👍

[@xanderplayz3446]

The cartridge slot is just a normal card slot…

[@Wythaneye]

I want to send a pre-emptive THANK YOU to all of the early adopters who are itching to buy the first run boards at full price. Your contribution is going to help us all in the future.

[@DailyCorvid]

I wish I could do more, this has really grabbed my attention - I have been a long time fan of David's but I never thought that the finished computer would be this amazing. I cannot wait to have two of them, one for the collection which will not be opened - and one for me! Honestly, having collected KZbin and tech merch for years THIS will be my favourite thing, along with the PETSCII Robots vinyl soundtrack. I mean how spoiled are we these days? This stuff is dynamite on steroids with a free high quality beer. Awesome.

[@keyboard_g]

Going to help other boards get made by the fancy equipment Texelec is getting funded out of this.

[@baremetaltechtv]

I was shaking my head in shame watching you put stickers on the keyboard, my dude....

[@KevboKev]

Agreed! And then it appeared he was sick of doing it himself, so he threw the stickers in the box for the EU's to do it. I'm a little disappointed with this outcome.

[@avalonbits]

For a 500usd machine!

[@samp3413]

@@avalonbits I'd be really surprised if the price goes down, I'd expect the opposite with all the obsolete parts they are using. Look at the size of that PCB, I had a quick look at the chips on that board... I mean why use 5 x SRAM + 6522 VIA DIP packages in 2023 when you can go for much cheaper surface mount, they would then have the opportunity to reduce chip space and save on parts... insane if anyone expects the price to come down significantly.

[@danieljonsson8095]

@@samp3413 No surface mounted components was part of his original design constraints because he wanted it to be easily repairable by an end user and surface mounts make that much harder. But still, there's bigger through hole too so using multiple chips still doesn't make economical sense :/

[@samp3413]

​@@danieljonsson8095 Multiple chips, sockets, slots too, its all very expensive. The VERA module has SMD components, FPGAs so his original design constraints have already been broken to an extent. Something like this should be produced as a kit.

[@werpu12]

While I am not a potential customer for this machine, this sounds like an awful ton of difficulties, I wish you the best for this project. It is amazing nevertheless!

[@volvo09]

Yeah, I would never want to design a product (especially with people waiting)... Too many headaches, and people get impatient.

[@berni8k]

This should have been done at a professional PCB assembly house! If you find the right place they will do production runs as low as 50 boards. They have proper machines to automate everything and make the whole production run in 1 day.

[@kwinzman]

What were the issues with having it assembled by a PCB manufacturer? What exactly were the logistical nightmares that you hinted at? Please talk about this more than 30 seconds!

[@aaba112]

Agree, don't understand either. Myself I construct, manufacturing and selling electronics but using low cost PCBA services from PCB Way and PCB One. Also did manual labor and used machines to start with but found it way more efficient and also gives better quality using a professional supplier compared to setting up a complete PCBA production line yourself. It is not worth it in the long run and will still require too much labor time. Also PCBA plants often have better prices sourcing components. I understand that you may have a few special components that need local and special sourcing, but just let them leave them out for you manual assembly.

[@deterdamel7380]

Maybe the 'ban' of SMT, the usage of obsolete semiconductors and the sourcing of fake replacement chips for them?

[@Schule04]

The main board uses through hole components, which most PCB manufacturers won't assemble. Another reason is that their business partner texelec would not get as much money as they did. Overall, the X16 turned out how I imagined it: a project made by people who have no up to date education on EE, full of decisions that don't make sense on a bigger scale.

[@Chickenbreadlp]

Regarding the soundchip situation: If you are going to swap out the soundchips with one that is incompatible with existing software anyways, then why not go with one that is still in production. I believe Yamaha is still making an FM sound chip called the SD-1, and there's a video on KZbin where someone made a USB sound card that is soundblaster compatible using the SD-1. That might be worth a try. As it's still in production it would at least mean you guys won't have any supply issues with them (in theory)

[@iyatemu]

The SD-1 and YMF285 haven't been in production in over half a decade. The newest possible examples you'll find have 2018 date codes, and you couldn't even get them difectly from Yamaha at the scales he's working at.

[@sjdpfisvrj]

No matter how, using ICs will get this project into further trouble. No matter David's nostalgia, ICs are a thing of the past, and relying on them is a recipe for disaster.

[@BrooklynWalker]

You’re determined. It’s interesting to see how you’re working on acquiring the tools used by other manufacturers. I won’t be buying one, because I actually have too many toys already, but I wish you the best of luck. Kudos to your patrons.

[@DailyCorvid]

You can never have too many toys Brooky!! What sort of things have you collected and how do you like to store your stuff? I have a big collection also, and I find storage is always a problem! Lol bastard house is full of boxes of tech!

[@dancooper6002]

@@jocm99 The price is already down to $350, and can be and remain low, while the C64 will get progressively more expensive and hard to get.

[@dru6809]

Wow - you guys are truly dedicated. Getting a pick and place as well as a wave soldering setup is pretty gutsy. I have so much respect for what you guys are doing.

[@frogbutts3628]

I bought Planet X3 and emailed David to ask what retro system he recommended. Sure as heck, he personally responded and was incredibly insightful. Good dude.

[@DailyCorvid]

@@frogbutts3628 He actually signs the boxes properly too! None of the cheap and fake initialling, it's a whole neat sentence with a proper arty looking signature. Also the CD32 pad is ace love it! Would 100% recommend. Can't wait to get hold of an X16!

[@Okurka.]

They didn't get a wave soldering setup.

[@giornikitop5373]

it's not wave soldering, it's solder dipping machine. wave soldering machines are very expensive.

[@jacklawsen6390]

Seems the project should have gone FPGA to start with, as it's now complex & expensive w/multiple FPGA subsystems, and a cheap 3rd version would likely use FPGA anyway. They could have made a deluxe version later.

[@joecan]

Any one of those FPGAs would be more powerful than the system itself.

[@6581punk]

Yes and it won't be using up vintage ICs will be needed to repair classic arcade games and PC boards. I used to follow a music synthesizer project where the designer made a series of filter boards using vintage filter chips. He then regretted it because these chips were becoming scarce and people would then unable to repair their very valuable and sought after synths. So it is completely stupid and short sighted to use scarce parts for what will be a plaything for nerds.

[@6581punk]

@@joecan Plus no PCB rework when things don't work right and you can actually go beyond what those systems could do back then, Spectrum Next and Mega C65 are great projects which are giving people something new but still with the resource limitations that inspire creativity.

[@DailyCorvid]

I don't think the point was an excess of power, it's ease of programming and learning. In that way it's better to have separate components, I think so anyway, as a custom FPGA would be no different to a modern micro like the Pi4. This is a retro development enthusiasm project it was never meant to compete with anything modern. That is what Atari made their little box for. I am glad they stuck with the yam chip.

[@jacklawsen6390]

​​​​@@DailyCorvid Any advantage of separate components is kinda made invalid by the fact that the oft-mentioned 3rd version (the one made to actually be affordable) is planned to use a system-on-chip design. Also, people aren't really complaining about lack of power, but much greater cost and complexity than what was originally pitched.

[@infopackrat]

I would like to hear more about the issues with getting boards made by a manufacturer.

[@honolulublues5548]

I can imagine a few being in the business. Two of the things that come to mind are price and delivery. First, the number of boards may not be ideal for their business and may charge something outrageous. The second is the turn around time on having them manufactured could be so far out you wouldn't see product for quite some time. Because Biden has enacted the defense production act, many PCB manufacturers are looking to gain access to that cash making boards for the military. The final thing, might be quality on the production. The contractor might not want to take any responsibility for how it turns out - or they will at another huge cost. Now, I don't know this for sure. It's based on my experience working in the aerospace industry which has high quality standards. We make our own boards if there are no RoHS requirements. We do use contractors when RoHS is required.

[@petermuller608]

THT assembly is extremely expensive compared to SMD

[@paulklasmann1218]

There are no issues. They don't know what they're doing.

[@bzuidgeest]

​@@paulklasmann1218 i agree mostly, but the texelec guy has been selling other boards for years. You think he would know. But maybe he is just reselling those.

[@paulklasmann1218]

@@bzuidgeest I'm sure he's not been involved in manufacture judging by the video.

[@janPolijan]

Hello, David. I think you have a lot of courage to keep this project alive, because it look very rough at times. I must be honest: I won't buy a X16 because it strayed far from the original vision in terms of complexity and especially due to the price. But it's enjoyable to watch your videos. I wish you the best for this project. The Yamaha chips episode is a bummer, but it's not really surprising, is it? Hope you get a good solution to move forward.

[@bzuidgeest]

​@@epicwildstar1918 why? To be a total fanboy? There are far better options. This is some weird cobbled together commodore fetish. The keyboards alone are ridiculous and expensive.

[@bzuidgeest]

@@epicwildstar1918 either something is wrong with my KZbin app or the channel owner keep removing my replies with the answer to your question. Apparently they don't like competition. Which is a big red flag in itself.

[@soko7awen]

toki a! mi pilin sama.. tenpo lon la mi wile jo e ni. ni ken musi pona!

[@AvidSonicFan]

I think you should call the game console version (or the Gen.2 version) of the X16 the "X16GS", in much the same way Commodore made a consolized version of the C64, called the C64GS.

[@Okurka.]

We all know how the C64GS was a giant success.

[@psergiu]

X16C - like the Apple//c - the compact version without expansion cards.

[@brucemcfarling4674]

Though unlike the C64GS, it still includes the keyboard... it is just reduced from four expansion ports to one.

[@Okurka.]

@@brucemcfarling4674 It also has reduced memory.

[@brucemcfarling4674]

@@Okurka. 552KB SRAM and 512KB FlashRAM memory built in and up to 3.5MB RAM or ROM or both available in a cartridge is not a trivial amount for an 8bit processor

[@JustWasted3HoursHere]

Too bad about the fake chips, but that is, unfortunately, a common issue (ask Adrian Black about it!). And going with out of production chips was always going to be iffy. It's too bad FPGA wasn't the heart of the design from the beginning. In many ways it would have made the production easier. You could incorporate multiple chips on one FPGA, allowing the motherboard to be smaller and less complex (and thus cheaper too). I hope the soldering issue can be solved!

[@samuraiBSD]

I think retro computing at this point has to embrace FPGA/CPLD as the modern stand-in for something like the ULAs or other semi-custom ASICs of yesteryear. We just don't have the resources to tape out new silicon, really, but anyone who learns HDL can build a new chip with off the shelf parts these days. Or an STM32.

[@giornikitop5373]

@@samuraiBSD true. somehow 'retro' today is misinterpreted as "old through-hole chips only". David is always saying that he wants the design to be simple for everyone to understand, but i doubt most ppl can understand this design nor do they really care. they just want to use it.

[@JustWasted3HoursHere]

@@samuraiBSD FPGA definitely opens up many possibilities and can greatly simplify a motherboard design.

[@brucemcfarling4674]

The problem with using FPGAs when NOT "strictly necessary" is where do you stop? Using an in production real 8bit CPU with in production 8bit SRAM and FlashRAM and available 74 series glue logic gives a much narrower design envelope to work in.

[@samuraiBSD]

@@brucemcfarling4674 I think you stop at anything a custom ASIC would have done in the past. So like the NES' PPU, or the ULA on a Spectrum. While some of those things could be implemented in TTL with logic chips, it increases the cost of kits for those things pretty significantly, which is why the original machines had custom silicon to begin with: Lower chip count to reduce cost.

[@AS-oz6ep]

"if I'm going to be selling a product that's no more powerful than a raspberry pi, then it shouldn't cost 5x what a raspberry pi costs" - 8 bit guy, 2019 ("Building my dream computer - Part 1") It's really eye opening taking a look at what the original vision was vs. what it's become.

[@matthewmcdevitt6792]

I don't see you trying to build a retro computer. So your opinion is invalid.

[@stoomkracht]

@@matthewmcdevitt6792 it is/was the opinion of the project maintainer.

[@doc_sav]

​@@matthewmcdevitt6792 So like you can't have an opinion unless you have also done the thing? That sounds pretty psycho. Regardless, several core principles of the X16 won't be met and the project has crept out of scope, already planning for expansion carts before the thing is even widely available. Is this due to the realities of manufacturing and increased costs making the dream not accessible? Probably, understandably so. Would I solicit _charitable_ donations to launch a for profit business and acquire machines that can be used for any other high margin boutique retro board assembly projects that I want? Absolutely not. It would be back to the drawing board or telling everyone that I couldn't make it work at that scale period. The first time frog man popped up here asking for donations without a finished product or any idea of assembly I straight up said it was sketchy as hell and unethical in the comments. Now he is buying up tooling with donation money and this thing is still going to cost as much as a modern game console. If some C64 basic and kernal compatibility is worth that price for you, then great! But for saner folks, $400+ simply makes this a no go, and they haven't even sorted out the sound chip issue which was completely predictable and preventable.

[@NightRidersUrbex]

@@doc_sav Right on point. I really love going "full scale retro" by playing Planet X3 on my 286-16 machine. Got a C64, an Amiga500, the old Nintendos, Segas, hell, even a Vtech Laser 310. BUT: All of these original classic machines came (and do come!) far below $400. Every machine has literally tons of software and games readily available. A new release worth looking at ist to be found somewhere every month. Wanna code fast running basic programs? Then get a full Pentium II - PC for $150. So why spend $400 on smth that's quite barebone on the software side and proprietary hardware, too? I know some entusiasts are likely to kill for every new piece to tinker with - at a $50-100 pricepoint I'd gladly give the x16 a shot, too. But these times a two year old secondhand $20 Raspi can handle (emulate) almost every retro-task you throw at it - I just bolted one behind the TV in my RV - I simply fail to see the "that's why I should buy one" in a $400 X16.

[@tangentspace]

@@matthewmcdevitt6792 Please consider reading "Engineering for purpose: the silliness of the Commander X16" if only the opinions of those who build retro computers matters to you. The X16 is not The 8-Bit Guy's hobby project, it's a product for sale and should be scrutinized as such for the benefit of the consumer no matter how much you like The 8-Bit Guy. The difference between his stated goals from his "dream computer" videos and the monstrosity that is being rammed into existence with daughter boards, crowd funding and wave soldering machines is most absolutely eye opening.

[@reminso2952]

there seem to be a lot of future plans for a device that is already having problems sourcing its chips as they are not in production anymore.

[@another3997]

Yep, they really need to get supply and manufacturing issues sorted out for the first batch, before setting goals for versions 2 and 3. They need to finalise the build and the price before considering where to go next. I never understood why they would use old, obsolete sound chips that are no longer in production.

[@Mr-te7dt]

@@another3997 well, four years ago there were availability, but probably COVID and stock shortage did wonders making them out of stock. Even for no longer manufactured parts, stock diminished quite fast in the recent 2 or so years. Not only YM parts.

[@paradoxmo]

@@Mr-te7dtthere was likely never availability, the numbers he was looking at were likely faked.

[@thetechdudemc]

Yamaha still makes an FM synth chip to this day, the YMF825 aka SD-1 so this should have honestly been chosen instead. If I were him I would reach out to Yamaha directly and see if something can be worked out

[@knerduno5942]

@@another3997 Maybe they can get some more of those Yamaha chips replicated in Mexico.

[@andrew-dunai]

Man, I'd SO love to get one kit and build it myself! I'm totally OK for being responsible for any negative outcomes. I'm sure many supporters would actually love to do the same. It would save you a LOT of time!

[@not_my_fn_real_name2689]

I have not looked at the X16 in like a year (more maybe, time smears together these days), but it really does seem like a bad decision to build a computer for the hobbyist community and not offer a pre-picked kit to build. Maybe they have released all of the hardware design under an open source license and people can get the parts themselves, but if so they should have said something like we aren't selling official kits but you can find the the parts list and board files and do it yourself. Maybe they are hoping to recoup some of the cost of purchasing the fabrication machines and will do a kit once they can get the price stabilized to the point where they cab make money by selling a kit (assuming a kit would be a loss from development costs at this point).

[@holejack1]

Yeah really disappointed they're not gonna do kits. I think I hear the air being let out of the balloon right about now. I get that they don't want to be responsible for support, but that's what public forums are for. There are, or were, a lot of people excited about building one of these, which could have been the start of a really cool community.

[@MJDevel]

Same here, I hope he will reconsider once the orders have dial down a little. No doubt a small enthusiastic community will form by itself and handle most supports case anyway.

[@Mr_ToR]

This project should be a case study on how everything can go bad will go bad. Nothing ended up being what was the initial promise and concept of this project. I really hope this project would at least be useful to make the 8bit guy a proper computer manufacturer because it seems the only good outcome of this project is that he is obtaining the experience on how to make computers. Maybe he will make a z80 computer next.

[@Weneedaplague]

lmao maybe you'll make something instead of bitching next

[@paradoxmo]

I kept track of this project from the time that 8-bit Guy made his “dream computer” video. I’m glad he went for it because it brought a platform to this kind of project. However, that they’ve not met many of their design goals (no FPGA, no use of out of production chips, a single person can understand everything on the board, pricing) says to me that they simply were over their head in the first place. Something like the Agon light meets the original X16 design goals much more closely than what the X16 has become. The design goals as stated just became too contaminated with wanting to match/emulate a Commodore / VIC-20 too closely. Physical compatibility should have been sacrificed in favor of achieving the same thing using SD cards. Needing a cartridge to get around some of the limitations of the architecture is just nuts and could have been entirely avoided.

[@not_my_fn_real_name2689]

I love the inclusion of acartridge, it provides avenues of expansion that are easy and just aren't possible with an SD card. They mention throwing a vector chip into a cart to support a game. Expansion slots can do a similar thing, but that assumes the "console" version will keep all of the expansion slots on the board, which may not be the plan if they want to reduce the size. If I get an X16, it will be the full size version, but wothout a cart slot, the console version would be super restricted in what it could play. Finally, the X16 is unlikely to be a huge community, and boutique devs are gonna want to make money to support their work. Hardware allows them to have something to sell. And from a vollector's perspective, aside from digital PC games, I almost never buy digital versions of games that have a hardware alternative. Bottom line is most people who wpuld want something like the X16 wpuld also want to buy collectable hardware.

[@paradoxmo]

@@not_my_fn_real_name2689 I’m not saying that having a cartridge slot is bad. I’m saying that needing a cartridge just to have extra ROM space is bad. You shouldn’t need a cartridge for that. An SD card game should be able to do the same stuff as a cartridge game, you shouldn’t need a cartridge just to take advantage of full capabilities. It divides people into two camps, those with cartridges and those without, and that’s insane in a digital world. Not to mention that SD cards are cheap and making carts costs money, so it prevents small indie developers from distributing games on SD card or over the internet unless they want to accept not having as much memory to make their game. In other words, just because it’s a retro computer doesn’t mean we should artificially limit the machine to what was possible in 1980 and ignore all present reality.

[@jacklawsen6390]

​​​​​​​​​​​​​@@paradoxmo Exactly. Needing carts to overcome the system's addressable memory limit is bizarre, especially when at the beginning David said it would probably use a 65c816, which would have solved the problem. This means people interested in making more ambitious games will either need to make and sell carts, which will drastically decrease output, or specialized and expensive flashcarts will need to be made. I thought the idea was to make an accessible system with a sizeable user base, but it seems that's shifted to basically continuing the Commodore line under a different name, as if the last 35 years never happened.

[@brucemcfarling4674]

@@paradoxmo " I’m saying that needing a cartridge just to have extra ROM space is bad." What does that mean? The ROM in the cartridge is HOLDING THE GAME. If you have the game on an SD card, you don't NEED the ROM space, because the game is on an SD card. Dave literally says in the video that if you don't care about the competitive eSports angle and are happy running the game from the SD card, you can just do that.

[@Mmmm_tea]

other than supporting the channel and being a fun hobby project I think this project isn't doing anything that a pi zero for a fraction of the cost can't do! overengineered and overcosted, it costs more than a steamdeck !!

[@TonyWeirPD]

Good grief man, you assembled all those BY HAND and then set up your own production line? I'm not sure who you spoke to about getting these mass-produced, but I regularly get stuff done in small (10-100pc) quantities without any "logistical nightmares". Even getting the SMT parts assembled/soldered by automated pick-and-place/reflow then adding the TH by hand would have been a worthwhile timesaver. Soldering one board by hand is a bit of a chore. I think they'd put me in a padded cell after doing 100 boards that size. As others have mentioned, wave soldering and preheat avoids the warping problem. I don't think anybody does dip soldering anymore, although "dip components" is often used to mean through-hole components. Anyway, full marks for sheer bloodymindedness :)

[@ballyastrocade5672]

"dip components" specifically refers to through-hole ICs, and it's actually an acronym. DIP = Dual Inline Package; i.e. there are two rows of pins, all at the same height and distance from the chip body. Has nothing to do with them being "dipped" in solder. :-)

[@TonyWeirPD]

@@ballyastrocade5672 I know, but in that case it's capitalized. Possibly it's a regional thing, but in my part of the world (non-English-speaking) people use the phrase "dip components" (lowercase 'dip') to refer to all leaded components. It's entirely possible it arose from confusion between DIP packages and the dip process, but it's definitely a thing. In Europe or the UK people talk about "wave soldering" and "DIP packages" as entirely different things, as you'd expect. And presumably in the US too.

[@larrydanna]

Excellent update. Thanks for creating something new! This is gonna be a lot of fun!

[@ssl3546]

I can't believe you thought there were 100,000 Yamaha chips sitting in a warehouse somewhere. The chip was introduced 40 years ago. It would be like claiming there are 100,000 8088 chips ready for sale, except the Yamaha chip had a lot more uses for it.

[@chadhartsees]

Yes, that does really expose him as sort of out of his element.

[@static_anachromatic]

I can't believe the amount of comments I had to scroll through to find someone pointing this out.

[@another3997]

Well, whilst I agree in general, it's really the fault of the suppliers making untrue claims. You would think that David contacted at least one of them before committing to that sound chip?

[@chadhartsees]

@@another3997 One would think.

[@mattks1001]

@@another3997 he said in the video he had contacted suppliers prior to picking the Yahama, and that confirming supplies existed is why they went with the Yamaha. It wasn’t until the ordering stage that the supplier came back and said they made an error and didn’t have the supplies.

[@RicoElectrico]

I think your production woes _really_ underscore how important it is to DFM (Design for Manufacturing) from the get-go. If you have requirements that SMT assembly fabs can't fulfil, then it's a sign the board should have been designed differently. Some people opt for pick-and-place for SMD devices and then manually solder THT components in-house. That would be reasonable too.

[@joshuascholar3220]

There is a huge amount of naivete in the design, both hardware and software. It's going to be a big pain to program. I find that naivete a big disappointment. I realize that this is retro, but there wasn't someone in the design team who had a sophisticated understanding of what it would take to make a system that made the most of the hardware, make it so that writing software for it wouldn't be a huge pain, and let alone what would make it easy to manufacture. As someone who programmed games on the original machines back in the 80s and 90s, watching this guy stumble along has been a bit painful. There are lost opportunities here.

[@bbuggediffy]

@@joshuascholar3220 Which ones? What opportunities were lost?

[@joshuascholar3220]

@@bbuggediffy I've never been impressed with the design decisions they've made for memory model for this. It needed multiple windows into the memory or an actual 65816 to reduce the rather extreme pain that will be involved in laying out the memory map for any program on it that takes more than the 64k bytes that the processor can address. And when The 8 Bit Guy talks about C or Pascal compilers for his machine, it's clear that he's never had a handle on the what makes the 6502 different from other processors, or how really hard to use the memory bank system they've designed is. About those languages, they are going to make 16 bit integers the most basic data type that calculation are done on - slowing software down over something that can use 8 bits effectively by a factor of 3 or 4. If you're stuck with a truly 8 bit machine like the 6502, you really want a custom language that can get the most out of 8 bits. But then the way they added bank memory is a bigger problem and any high level development language would choke on that as well and that's a worse problem. There is no fast way to use memory in one bank and process it to another, no effective way to have a large memory model for data and code. Code would have to be segmented by bank, data would have to segmented by bank, and there's no efficient way to use those banks. Data would have to be slowly moved out of one bank and then processed into other banks if you want to process data larger amounts. The 6502 is a weak processor and the design doesn't give it much help. Just having more memory isn't such an advantage if there's no efficient way for the processor to use it. And it will be a big problem for programmers to have to segment their code and data. This could have been handled by having multiple windows into the banks, but I guess there was no one on the design team who thought about what it would take to turn the system into something that could have a powerful development system without pain. Ideally you just use a 65816 (which he seemed to be planning to but never got around to), but otherwise you make a bunch of bank windows and use them like segment registers. You want efficient use of memory, have a source window into the banks, a destination window, a far code window, perhaps even a leaf routine window and a kernel routine window, and a display window. The more the better. Then you can process data in loops without slowing it down by bank switching in the loop or by copying out of the bank. And you can call leaf routines and kernal routines without having to call out of a bank to set up every call. I guess the system is authentically retro in that the engineering for the design is no more sophisticated than it was back in the 80s. BASIC back in the day was naively written software, and rather hid the potential of the systems it ran on. I'm less aware of the problems with Commodore BASIC, let's take Atari BASIC as an example. Its only numeric data type was floating point number - on a processor that didn't have hardware floating point support. It was SO SO SLOW. My impression of Commodore BASIC was that it was equally minimal and naive design - useful for tiny custom, "add up my expenses" one liners, but not for showing what the system can do, very bad for games. I do know that the implementation of the floating routines on both machines is far far far from optimized. What this machine has going for it is nostalgia for the Commodore 64. I programmed the C64 back in the day, but I'm not nostalgic for it. I was a video game programmer back then. But our attitude back then wasn't different from game programmers today - we wanted the most powerful hardware we could use and we wanted to get the most out of it. It wasn't like today's game of "retro" programming that's programming with one hand tied behind your back. I realize that this is retro, but it's kind of sad that it wasn't designed to get the most out of the hardware that IS there. The most you could have gotten out of a 6502 design would have been something that allowed high level programming and other relatively large memory tasks nearly as effectively as an early Mac and had graphics and sound as good as a 16 bit game machine. But the x16 will never have the former.

[@8BitNaptime]

@@joshuascholar3220 as the kids say, based

[@jordanweimer788]

Consider frames for your boards when they get dipped. I asked my father who is a EE who worked for Bell Labs briefly in the 70’s and then worked making semiconductor testing equipment from the 80’s-2010’s. He doesn’t get this obsession with rebuilding “obsolete” technology so I’ll be commenting for him loll. Very cool projects! At least I get it!😅

[@samuraiBSD]

I'm still excited to see where this goes and how it evolves, but I do think it's funny that the X16 was born out of a disagreement with the philosophy of the Foenix C256, and has over time morphed into something that looks very much like that project.

[@chadhartsees]

That's a GREAT point.

[@thecorruptedbit5585]

Since this project began, we've seen the emergence of the Zeal 8-bit, a bit closer to form of the original project spec

[@samuraiBSD]

@@thecorruptedbit5585 Yup! Zeal is also a super interesting project to me. A lot of the other small retro SBCs that have emerged since the X16 started development have taken the other forks in the road and it's fascinating to watch all of these slightly different design philosophies change over time.

[@frixyg2050]

And since the Foenix project is further along, the price has already come way down. The 65C02 model is only $200 (without a case; fits Mini-ITX).

[@bitwize]

@@samuraiBSD Kinda like when the 8-bit home-computer market happened the first time around!

[@AppliedCryogenics]

It might be nice with a pizza-box style case to have a central pillar inside so you can put a monitor on it. Also, there's some really cheap STM32's that have more than enough horsepower to emulate a YM2151 and a 12-bit DAC as well.

[@wwsoft]

I am surprised they didn't consider a STM32 as an alternative to the FPGA

[@aziztcf]

Heck, think you'd be able to pull it off with a 2$ blue pill.

[@giornikitop5373]

they could prob. use that or something like a esp32 and have enough power to do extra stuff in a cartridge or expansion card. that might help with the networking since it already has a full tcp/ip stack. rp2040 could also be an option.

[@khashmeshab]

I made a pretty decent audio chip with an ATmega8A, and it still had room for improvement. I think it's certainly possible to emulate that chip even with much simpler microcontroller such as AVR. It just needs a powerful programmer who's familiar enough with electronics. I'd do this if they ask me to.

[@AndyGraceMedia]

yes indeed - all great points here. Any modern ARM processor can do all the stuff a cheap FPGA can do but cheaper. STM32, RP2040 for one dollar and so on. It gets to the design philosophy of the whole project, but that was David's decision to build a nostalgic box that was the successor to the Commodore 8 bit machines. That was always going to be an extremely difficult task and they've done an incredible job.. The irony is the ARM processor actually was the spiritual and architectural successor to the 65C02 by the brilliant guys at Acorn in Cambridge. The ARM1 co processor dev board for the BBC Master I developed on and the Archimedes/BBC A3000 powered by ARM2 really were the next iteration of those 8 bit 6502 based Acorn machines. They had tiny sales figures at the time, but the ARM went on to become the biggest selling processor in history by miles ... and today I'm writing this comment on an Apple designed evolution of that very first Acorn Risc Machine.

[@TariqYasiinProd]

When you offer kits for the community to build, expect the community to have its own support line, on the internet.

[@petermuller608]

Unfortunately, the most problematic users will be those who do not use a community for support but require hand holding by the manufacturer -- which does not seem viable for such a small team

[@haysoos123]

@@petermuller608 Why can't they just state outright that they will not be offering support because of the size of the team, then put a link to the forums? People would be understanding, and those that are unreasonable can take a hike. The only reason I can think of otherwise is that dealing with missing or non-working parts in a kit might be a headache, and dealing with a kit as a separate product is also no small task.

[@petermuller608]

@@haysoos123 not wanting to sound dismissive, but this view is naive. The users reading and understanding "we do not offer Support" are not the problematic ones. Just look at the comments here. So many commenters are crying about certain aspects of this project, which were clearly stated and explained by the team :/ I personally would like to see kits, too. Maybe the team or a better a third entity could sell the PCB. Sourcing the components themselves should be a high enough barrier for many not able to assemble such a kit

[@haysoos123]

@@petermuller608 Judging by all the grown adults crying about this or that, there will always be those people. So what? It's not something they should take into consideration. I hope they will offer a kit, but if they don't, I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

[@robertlowe8843]

Speaking as a professional computer scientist who has worked on many engineering projects (both hardware and software), I found this video very disheartening. I worried about just this scenario when they adopted the Yamaha chip, and also the case is just poorly engineered as it precludes the use of expansion cards. Why on earth would they be making it slimmer? The problem is in the other direction! Fortunately, this is not the only modern 8-bit computer in the game, but I can certainly see why they have disallowed any mention of those competitors on their forum. This project is showing a lot of signs of imploding. They have supply chain issues, parts that don't work with each other (especially the case), creeping FPGAs which undermine the original intent of the project, ever increasing complexity and several production issues. This would be a neat machine to play with, but at the same time I may just stick with the emulator. The case issue takes away most of the utility I saw in having the actual hardware.

[@steverogers8163]

Yeah that stuck me as particularity insane. Especially for a dev board. I imagine he's using the logic of "well you can just take the top off" but that only really makes sense if you are constantly add/removing boards. Once you've got it setup the way you want you generally want to close it up. I don't know but if feels like the case is 1 gen ahead of where the board actually is.

[@robertlowe8843]

​@@rockapartie it is. The creator of one 8-bit machine offered a harsh technical criticism of Commander X16 and they declared him to be "toxic" and will delete any mention of the ... I can't say because they will likely delete this reply. The thing is, all of the toxicity I can find is coming from the x16 creators. In my opinion, those practicing censorship are always in the wrong. That they forbid its discussion is a clear admission that the competitor is a better product.

[@doc_sav]

Yeah, this is a project I have been excited for a long time about, but unfortunately that evaporated by the time they started seeking donations to start a for-profit business. Especially the refusal to sell a kit. I get that compromises and sacrifices have to be made when getting into production. Unfortunately for the X16, the decisions along that path made it less and less interesting compared to the original concept.

[@davidlloyd1526]

@@robertlowe8843 To be fair, that guy is toxic. Just read his website (not just Commander X16 stuff). As far as I can tell, all of these 8-bit projects are done for a laugh and a few KZbin videos. Gloating over problems seems really pointless.

[@stoomkracht]

Suggest searching YT for the Argon Light Z80. Difference: Dutch hobbyist(s) throws his designs and plans online after creating a prototype and production companies may or may not jump on it for batch production. One is Olimex. 50 euro for the board. Ok, he teases the 8 bit guy in a recent video. Old computer wars continues.

[@terrencecoccoli524]

I only look at this video to read the comments. So savage!

[@ericwood3709]

It really doesn't seem like a good idea to offer a Famicom-shaped slot that might damage a Famicom game, fellas. Someone is bound to try it eventually.

[@retronoobtech8551]

what a pity, the project is too ambitious and too expensive for many people's pockets. Without wanting to argue, wouldn't something simpler have been better? There are many good and nice projects like the Z80MBC2 and the like that don't require industrial efforts to be appreciated, taking into account the obvious differences. That said, I hope you find a way to keep costs down and make it widely used.

[@sketchpalosotherchannel]

I would LOVE to buy a non assembled one, I love soldering and it would be similar to the Apple I. You could also maybe charge less, as not as much labor is required. It would be a fantastic hobbyist and even educational resource!

[@jeromethiel4323]

Yep. Just add the caveat that there is NO TECH SUPPORT. You buy the kit, you take responsibility for getting it working. But, i'd be willing to bet that a community of people would quickly form for helping each other troubleshoot issues. Hell, some of us might even buy both. One guaranteed to work, and one to mess around with and do yourself. Best of both worlds.

[@ShaneSemler]

Looks cool! Maybe consider makeing the FPGA daughter board available as a future proofing upgrade option.

[@jkeelsnc]

This is a cool project and glad to see that it is close to real production. I won’t be surprised if someone develops expansion cartridges for the gen 2 that add back some of the “missing” features from the gen 1 such as RAM expansion being obvious.

[@sharedinventions]

I have ordered my boards with assembly, where only the passives were populated. That made assembly way more easy.

[@dennisp.2147]

This. Passives and sockets for the thruhole stuff. Then you can stuff the board when it arrives in Texas

[@SirDimpls]

If you already converted two vital components to fpga I dont understand why there is no definite plan to produce the x16 as a single fpga chip system at a reduced price now? we know it'll have a full remake in misterfpga at some point which may kill the demand for the hardware making it unsustainable 😢

[@jacklawsen6390]

Yeah, I don't understand that, as a cheap version could have the broadest possible appeal and build the user base. Waiting years to do this seems kinda backwards. If they wanted a deluxe version, they could have started with the cheap, simple version first and built up to that, instead of jumping in the deep end of complex and expensive hardware production from the get-go.

[@brucemcfarling4674]

Because making the mostly FPGA system hardware compatible with the real 8bit ASIC components should be straightforward, but if you start with the FPGA, it's easy to design something that the real 8bit components can't match. So you need to do the through hole version first for the hardware reference platform, then the cost reduced version with surface mount versions of the real CPU and then finally find the single FPGA with the capabilities to handle everything but the 512KB HighRAM and FlashRAM.

[@brucemcfarling4674]

They still would have been waiting years ... the FPGA in Vera wasn't available again until late last year.

[@jacklawsen6390]

@@brucemcfarling4674 When I said waiting years I meant years after the initial release of the system. He's mentioned possibly putting out a cheap version in something like 3 years after the first, though with all the delays the project has seen I'd bet on any estimates being significantly increased. The system was initially supposed to be low-cost to achieve a large install base and therefore a critical mass of software support. He explicitly called out the Mega65 as already being his dream system but far too expensive and thus unlikely to gain this support, but now the X16 looks to be almost as expensive. If these concerns end up being irrelevant, then I guess his initial ideas were somehow totally wrong, and there is a substantial market for a proprietary, code-your-own software hobby computer that costs as much as a PS5.

[@googleyoutubechannel8554]

Who knew that manufacturing a completely custom computer from scratch was going to be challenging for 2 guys to do in a basement?

[@raybun4003]

The agon light is like $50 and does everything he says he wanted his computer to do lol and was made by an equally small team, ontop of that, the basic engine exists which is also cheap, runs basic and hits the right price point. I'm surprised he's kept going, I'm guessing just because of the kickstarter backlash he'd get otherwise.

[@rejenttool7124]

I've been watching this stuff from the beginning and even then I thought it was a difficult premise. I think some of the design goals were contradictory and it seems as though many of the original goals aren't being met. Now you're adding boards and bodges and band-aids to try and adhere somewhat to the original vision. At this point you're in sunk cost fallacy territory and you should take what you learned from this project and spin up a new design preferably with surface mount parts. All of us get to that point sometimes in a project and we have to remember to not fall in love with it just because we worked on it, sometimes you have to let it go and move on.

[@hackercat2]

As hard as this is for me to say, I think you might be right in some ways. I have faith that they can still pull it off somehow, but the project definitely appears to be going a little sour

[@giornikitop5373]

also why start plans about the 2nd gen or console board when you haven't yet figured out the availability issues for the first one?

[@davebing11]

board warping was due to using the cheapest thermal pcbs from pcb way (such as TG135, barely suitable for a hand soldered prototype) step up to TG155 or TG175 for less thermal warpage. It could also be due to pcb layout being non-symmetrical from a layer viewpoint (it bends like a thermostat element)'

[@nickademuss42]

One of my first tech jobs wile I went to school was building circuitboards, we had an axial incerion machine and pick and place machine, and a rather large wave solder machine that looked like a shuttlecraft! You loaded the boards in to it and it had chains with fingers that gripped the boards. It went over a 4' long preheater, a bubble flux, then a 1/2" thick 16" wide wave of solder, it just kissed the underside of the board. Also we used little tempurature activated stickers to make sure all the temps were good. After that they went into an industrial dish washer to clean the flux off. Followed by peeling the kapton tape off the connectors, and testing. I remember that if were were 10 degrees Celsius to cool, some of the longer boards would warp a little. Also back then they would design the boards to combat warping, either by adding backplane or removing it on the boards design. It was really complicated.

[@christianholmstedt8770]

I'm just wondering why you didn't just outsource the assembly to a fab house / PCB manufacturer instead of buying expensive machinery to do everything yourself?

[@novh4ck]

They did.

[@richy69ify]

This must be more frustrating than 8-bit guy lets on.

[@jct903]

Definitely want one of these, but I'll wait for you to scale up and work out the kinks. I'm hoping that for the Gen 2 you'll keep at least 1 cartridge expansion port like what was done with the Sega Saturn. I'm developing a piece of hardware myself for the casino industry, so I know very well the struggles you're going through.

[@brucemcfarling4674]

The "cartridge slot" IS the expansion slot. They didn't "add a cartridge slot", they added cartridge slot capabilities to the expansion slot. If you don't want a game cartridge, but you do want an expansion card, you can just take an expansion card designed for the X16 Dev board, put that in a Famicom cartridge case, and plug it in. Of course, you might have to do some cutting for the I/O connector if it's an I/O card -- I expect that the more popular X16 Dav Board I/O cards will be available with a ready made case so they can plug straight into the X16c without having a naked card sticking out.

[@eskwadrat]

Working for PCB CM for few years in the past, I cried for help seeing you guys spending money on this absolutely terrible submerging soldering rig some hoax company put together. Despite you did all right, the soldering won't be successful unless there's solder wave under the board flushing all pins to be soldered. It's bread and butter of pcb manufacturing. Good luck.

[@petermuller608]

Could you go into details on what machine he bought? Dip soldering is a viable solution for smaller boards and much more affordable than wave soldering. Nevertheless I agree, dip soldering such a huge board is going to be difficult

[@jonny-b4954]

I really think you have to wave solder larger boards like that. Warping is just an inevitability when dipping such large boards. I'm pretty sure that's why most manufacturers do it like that nowadays.

[@Mescherje]

In my opinion making assembly by yourself is sub optimal. There are companies which can assemble a thousand of computers in a few days/weeks, and with a lot higher standards than some home factory in your garage. You've already realized, that it's not enough to buy a machine, you have to have experience and knowledge of a process.

[@stevestroh1891]

One big issue with using contract manufacturing is that they’ve converted their automated systems to make only surface mount boards. Any through hole components are a separate, more expensive process.

[@Mescherje]

@@stevestroh1891 That's true, but they could order to mount only SM elements which I guess would be 95% job done. Anyways, that's their decision they've made, and their company. If they succeed, they made right decisions, I guess 🙂 I just wonder that David should've known how difficult and time consuming the simple labor is when it goes into quantities, since he's already developed and distributed his game and struggled with making enough copies, boxes etc. PCBs are way more time consuming and they still decided to assemble them by hand. That's strange.

[@brucemcfarling4674]

There aren't surface mount parts on the main board, so how can getting surface mounted parts done be 95% job done? The surface mount parts are on the Vera daughter board.

[@Mescherje]

@@brucemcfarling4674 What I meant was that they should design the board for SM from the very beginning. It'd also be cheaper since every hole in the pcb is also a cost.

[@Schule04]

@@Mescherje David is a control freak and does not trust other people. He likely has OCPD, which would explain his strange decisions

[@harveyellis6758]

Good to present the challenges of producing a commercial project. 2nd half of video is clearly scope creep for a system that has production issues.

[@patrickyork2975]

This has been a fascinating development. I personally would not want one but am excited for those that do and have enjoyed watching and hearing about the progress.

[@kidsalex13]

I would love to get a kit for the x16, seems like it would be such a great project. Especially since retiring from doing soldering professionally, it would be nice to do a big board like that again. I actually used to use more professional versions of the machines you showed in the video, as well as doing certain components by hand that machines just can't do. It was a good job, but the management, don't even get me started on lol.

[@colonelbarker]

I'm really excited to get myself a board. I think USD$500 may be a little more than I was hoping for, especially with overseas shipping.

[@geofftottenperthcoys9944]

Yeah $750AUS for me.

[@tarstarkusz]

Let's remember that when this idea was pitched, it was supposed to be like 50 bucks. That is about what it is worth, fifty bucks. I'm not trying to give 8bitguy grief about this. Five hundred bucks is OUTRAGEOUSLY expensive for an obsolete computer with no software. You can buy a pretty beefy Amiga for this kind of money.

[@cjallday1130plays]

@@tarstarkusz no software is completely wrong. right now, it's FULL of software even during development of the system.

[@tarstarkusz]

@@cjallday1130plays I'm willing to grant you there may be 50 programs, 200 if you include clocks and other worthless software. The Amiga probably has 20 thousand plus and all of the new stuff coming out. Five hundy is just way too much money for an obsolete 8 bit computer with no software. yes, 50 programs, probably 2/3rds of which are ports is "no software" I've always said from the beginning this should have been based on software emulation and maybe a custom Raspberry pi that boots directly into the emulation software. I've always said this because I've always knew a 50 dollar price point would only be possible if 10s of thousands of these could be sold, which is fantasy. Despite the tech being old, it is simply not feasible to do low cost hi tech manufacturing in small numbers. It can't be done. Everyone who has tried it has failed. All of the new classic computers came out massively over budget.

[@margingalaxy9826]

Sony Ps5 8k is only for $499 is a really good deal. However we respect and love 8bit guy ❤

[@BillyBobDingledorf]

You gotta know when to fold 'em.

[@properjob2311]

You know how this project ends...it's just a matter of time.

[@spacewolfjr]

@@properjob2311 Dave buys another gun with the Crowd Sourced $$$ and shoots all the PCBs?

[@AJGaS]

@@properjob2311 I'm outta the loop, how do you figure it ends? Genuinely asking

[@BackForwardPunch]

I think they mean “vapourware”

[@EndOfForever]

Project is still going strong

[@gregclare]

A lot of great hard work has been completed here. But, I can’t help feeling that this project is still balancing on the edge of viability for commercial success. Possibly mostly due to feature creep and where this has finally positioned the project. It’s also concerning to see you say the first batch will be $500, but the second batch will be maybe $150 cheaper. A good way to kill sales of the first batch. I hope, for the longevity of this project, that the first batch sells out quickly! 🤔

[@jeromethiel4323]

The old Osborne issue. But being a hobbyist thing, i am sure there are 100 hobbyists who would be willing to drop $500 on a 1st get development system. I myself am one of those "idiots" with more money than sense... ^-^

[@brucemcfarling4674]

@@jeromethiel4323 Quite. They are looking for a first full release in the 250 neighborhood, to get that parts and assembly cost down. It's the $175 SMB version that would be looking for the larger volumes.

[@ozmond]

If $150 is a deal breaker you can’t afford either batches lol

[@MomMom4Cubs]

@@jeromethiel4323 Yep. You beat me to it.

[@brucemcfarling4674]

@@ozmond Seriously, the first 90 or so will sell out easily ... someone waiting to save $150 just let's someone else get theirs earlier.

[@Okurka.]

So basically the crowdfunded money went to Texelec to equip his shop *and* he gets to exclusively sell the first batch.

[@Ant98986]

Guy got quids in

[@Schule04]

He gets to sell every batch because the machine isnt open source

[@jamesc2327]

Just like the good ol days

[@tonytran7712]

16:08-16:30 Making a video game console version of a home computer is like making a failed Commodore 64GS.

[@The8BitGuy]

There were specific reasons the 64GS was a failure. And most of those don't apply to our system.

[@sypialnia_studio]

Super interesting update, this system is sharing to be the ultimate 80s nerd dream come true! But I also cannot get over this QA segment camera setup, that must be the most akward camera setting for two people talking I have ever seen, what the heck David? Hahahaahha😅

[@bzuidgeest]

You really should look around more, there are less expensive dreams. They are very similar if not plain better. And they are actually available.

[@NavyDood21]

Man, seeing those boxes of parts is making me super envious. I just love soldering and putting stuff together like this.

[@Schule04]

You love it because it's just a hobby for you. If your job was assembling these each day by hand, you would not like it as much...

[@nineislandshuffle6599]

You are providing your viewers with a free education on what it takes to bring a product to market. The road travelled from conception to reality is fraught with numerous twists, turns and compromises. If one were to sit back and think about the path you all have taken, constantly problem solving and compromising to move the process forward, we would to appreciate more what technology we do have at our disposal. The more we have the more we take for granted. Hopefully you are able to pull this off and make it economically viable. Even if not, your experience could be used as a basis for a college or university product development course. And imagine we all got to attend for free and in real time. Good luck!

[@amiller112]

I have never seen a solder dipping machine, normally companies use a solder wave, where there is a pot of solder and this then pumps a wave of solder up to come into contact with the PCB as the PCB moves across the wave. Also you should really have it in a jig to hold it flat. Edit: well you seem to have that sorted.

[@avalonbits]

I've been following this project since it was an idea at the end of a random video, and I am pretty excited to see it becoming a reality! That said, I think it is no longer a product I want. I wanted the original vision of a small, simple, cheap computer that anyone could understand and the X16 is no longer that. Still rooting for the project and will love to see it gain success. Might even buy one if it ever gets to phase 3.

[@medes5597]

It's definitely been a victim of feature creep

[@matthewrease2376]

​@@medes5597 feature creep?

[@medes5597]

​@@matthewrease2376 basically a product starts out as x thing. Then when x thing seems achievable the people selling x thing say "wait, why don't we do Y thing as well?" And over time they come up with ideas to add z thing too, and then a, b and c things and so on. By the time they're done adding things, the product is nowhere near what it was originally intended to be and the new features have made it more complicated and more expensive. It's common in design.

[@matthewrease2376]

@@medes5597 no no, I know what feature creep is, I'm just wondering what all has been added to this that wasn't in the original plan (the plan that you guys presumably were really on board with)

[@medes5597]

@@matthewrease2376 did I say thst or did I say "this has feature creep" A speed run friendly 8bit amiga with a bad basic that's become an after thought, an FPGA soundchip replacement, famicom ports and expansion boards is a long way off from "a simple, inexpensive computer that allows users to code closer to the bare metal" which is what was pitched initially. What it is now is closer to the many hobbyist projects that already exist and do basically this. I can completely understand someone losing interest in this. That doesn't make current version bad and original pitch good. It makes current version radically different.

[@eriksilveira9356]

Interesting how this project quickly went to the opposite way that was originally supposed: it is expensive, rely on unavailable chips or FPGAs...

[@pietpraters1770]

second that .... might as wel be vaporware to me considering the pricepoint

[@sjdpfisvrj]

Yeah. I don't see this ever happening with all the caveats mentioned in the video.

[@zerothis23]

The project went as smoothly as can be expected for a new hardware design by a major manufacturer with years of experience and hundreds of thousands of dollars to throw in. Seriously, do some research. PS3's overheating flaw that delayed introduction to the market. Xbox' red ring of death. Nintendo's Joy-con drift. ZX Spectrum rampack wobble. MacBook Pro stuck and dead keys. Skylake USB 3.0 periferal killer. Ryzen segfault. Xeon Phi FP division feature fail. Atari VCS (1977) stereo speakers feature (the case retains the speaker 'vents'). Atari VCS (1977) video distortion. Pentium FDIV bug. PSP dead pixels. Apple II floating bus crash. Pixel 4 face unlock feature fail (it would unlock for a sleeping or otherwise unconscious owner, offering theves incentive to escalate the crime). SID chip flaw. IBM-PC (all of them, 1981) keyboard lock-up. Xbox stuck disk and permanent read falure. TI 99/4a power supply melt. Nintendo wrist strap failure. Commodore 16 video blur. Titan V simultaneous memory access feature fail. PS2 read failures requiring delayed launch. Atari 8-bit power supply flaws (whistle and screen static). Commodore 64 stuck keys. iPhone 4 antenna issue. Amiga 1000 audio noise.. GeForce 6 fan fail. VIC-20 dead keys.. Galaxy Note 7 explosions... EXPLOSIONS! ColecoVision power supply fail. Commodore 64 dead keys. Surface Laptop 3 adjust refresh rate feature fail (some advertised resolutions were unavailable). Apple II unintended autoexec. Xbox automatic disc scratching. TRS-80 III double-key presses. MacBook Pro ghosting and flickering. Apple III...TMI/tldr;. Sinclair QL dead keys. Sinclair QL saw many, many problems with the keyboard, RAM, power supply, that had to be solved before launch (many were not). Skylake hyper-threading bug. PS4 blue light of death. Ryzen 3000 boost clock feature fail. NES awful cartridge slot and overly error intolerant lockout chip. Commodore 64 original awful RF modulator. Phenom TLB bug. 3DS hinge cracking. Inspiring 5150 flawed motherboards. Pavilion DV overheat and brick.. iPhone SE 2nd generation haptic touch feature fail. Pixel 2 XL screen burn-in...screen burn-in _on and LCD_, that's an ACHEVMENT UNLOCKED moment! Pixel 2 XL color accuracy. Intellifision overheating. Transformer Prime GPS dropped connections. Mac Pro graphics card failure. Galaxy S6 water resistance feature fail. MacBook pro T2 chip fail. Skylake DDR3 memory incompatibility. Commodore 64 original power supply damaging the computer. There's more, but I'd better stop before this mere post becomes a book. Oh wait, they have matched and beaten the performance of major manufacturers with years of experience and hundreds of thousands of dollars to spend despite being a ragtag collection of hobbyists on a limited budget. How about let's compare them to a simular product that had professionals with years of experience. The May 2018, sorry, November 2020 Atari VCS. Their otherwise profession and experienced chief hardware engineer decided to jump out of a plane with very little effort or thought put into the concept of a parachute, and demanded to continue receiving his salary while not engineering durring his time in the hospital. Units failed to power on and overheated. Many were shipped despite being defective. The industry veterans in charge made inadequate effort to address their customers' concerns. Leaving it to their ex-hardware engineer to voluntarily and without compensation, assure Atari VCS customers that the project was real and in all likelihood would be released soon (although, it benefited him if his former employers earned money to pay what they owed him). David and team are doing much better than that. In fact, in addition to doing a better job than most big companies at working through the process, they are doing something very refreshing that just isn't done in this industry they have dived into. They are being preemptively open and honest about all the gory details, personally, rather than hiring someone to publicly spread BS on their behalf.

[@ryanhaart]

@@zerothis23 Yes let's compare them to a similar project, like the Agon light.😀

[@thysonsacclaim]

@@pietpraters1770 That's nonsense. Shit happens and COVID screwed a lot of stuff up.

[@gabor222]

Looking at the specs (video and sound capabilities + the retro 8-bit feel) makes me think I that would love this machine. Looking at the form factor makes me think again. I could place a c64 sized retro computer on my desk easily but adding an additional computer housing plus a keyboard plus a VGA to HDMI converter makes me prefer to play with the emulator only. The Nintendo controller connector is a strange decision too: I would assume that those who are into retro computers and programming are coming from the C64/Spectrum/Amiga scene rather than the games console scene so the availability of 9-pin controllers (which allows two separate fire button) are more likely for them.

[@thedarkdragon89]

I thought of a good idea, a board with a cartridge edge connector on the bottom to connect to the cartridge port of the Gen 2 model that gives expansion slots and a pass through cartridge slot. This would be an optional additional purchase, of course.

[@johnsonlam]

No one is perfect, appreciate of all of you that working on it, and thanks for all the hard work! Please share more video of the production process, as a history record and fun and tears (I guess must have many setback during making of the board).

[@kevincolyer]

Thanks for such a frank and honest video. What you are attempting is hard!

[@mephustowest1876]

It is really neat that you are able to make these new computers like this, but I was wondering what happened to the plans you put out at the start about no surface mount and all easily replaced/in production chips? I feel like it is completely different than what was originally planned.

[@anonymouseniller6688]

Smt is easier to rework tbh. Heat it and it falls right off.

[@mephustowest1876]

@@anonymouseniller6688 I am sure it is easier to rework for the people that have the tools and abilities, but my question was more along the lines of how massive the change is from what he originally planned.

[@guyguy467]

It's clear that a lot of thought and effort has been put into this. Thank for sharing

[@pefclic]

Amazing work ! Can't wait for the MiSTer Fpga version, if any will be available.

[@damienretro4416]

I'll be honest...once you start filling a system with FPGAs, you might as well just make a MiSTer core or use software emulation.

[@X-OR_]

Yep !

[@David-gd6qt]

Your honesty is refreshing

[@andychow5509]

The site selling the board offers both a free emulator for download and an online emulator. This is a niche product for a very tiny niche indeed. Physical cartridges is pretty cool idea.

[@OpenGL4ever]

@@andychow5509 No, it's not. How do you backup physical catridges? There designed for one purpose, to keep you away from making backups. Nintendo did this many years and now the users can't run them anymore because the catridge or the console got defective.

[@andychow5509]

@@OpenGL4ever Ok, you're really confused. Any cartridge can be backed up by extracting the ROM which can be done by anyone. The cartridge was designed to store software AND sometimes provide extra capabilities such as save states (which consoles were unable to do. Even the PS1 needed save cards), or extra computing capacities (like Star Fox). Carts had MB capacities, this was before the internet and before USB keys even. We had floppies with 1.44 MB storage, so it wasn't a copy protection scheme. There WERE protection schemes in cartridges, but that's absolutely not the reason they were designed that way. It was the only way to hold that much data in a solid state format.

[@perfectionbox]

the console case shown at 24:11 worries me a bit, so many sharp corners, not just square but stabby

[@JonSeverinsson]

For your HDMI troubles, consider supporting DVI. It is unencumbered by patents, there is no licensing enforcement racket, and it can be converted to HDMI with a $2 passive adapter. HDMI 1.0 is mostly DVI-D SL with a different plug and a "compliance program" run by a really nasty cartel (a.k.a. the HDMI LA). It adds some features (such as Y′CB'CR video, an audio sub-channel and a DRM system), but all those are optional and not relevant to the Commander X16. Newer HDMI revisions adds more features and higher bandwidths, but again nothing relevant to the Commander X16. Oh, and if you make a Vera board with DVI-I support (DVI-A and DVI-D in a single port), you can support both VGA and HDMI monitors by simply providing two different $2 passive adapters...

[@JoeBurks_1]

"HDMI" (or whatever one calls non-licensed TMDS over that particular port) exists on pretty much all televisions but DVI does not. I started the work to throw in a TMDS transmitter because many of the number of people who mentioned it because their television had multiple available HDMI ports but usually not VGA - and I don't think anybody ever mentioned having DVI. Many televisions have composite input and I recently improved that quite a bit, but it's still an unpleasant experience for most unless you have an actual CRT.

[@bgood2010]

They could also use DisplayPort and thus support all that, including VGA, DVI and HDMI. Without licensing issues.

[@Mr-te7dt]

Unfortunately, that's not true (at least in 2023). At least there's a few patents that MPEG-LA collects for for DVI in the US and any country that recognizes hardware patents, until 2025-2026. (e.g. US7059917B1 to be expired in 2025). Displayport is not bound to patents, but is encumbered by the required chips associated and the software inside them. VESA requires an annual payment of a minimum of US5000 for access to the diagrams and chips/software to use the standard.

[@AJ-yr6bz]

Awesome update!! Been lurking on this project for a while and am inspired to see the fruits of what professionals do for fun! How does your friend make those keyboard labels? I've been looking forever for a high quality way to make my own labels!

[@turolretar]

Overpromise and underdeliver. It always works

[@dbozan99]

One of the goals of this computer is to be ease-of-development, but there was no mention in this video of any sort of documentation that would be available with the system, other than the schematics. Obviously there is already development happening for the system from details that have been published online, but is that it? Is everyone who buys the machine just expected to know where to look online and how to use a search engine when they encounter issues? I'd love to be able to just buy the computer and be able to just give it to a child with nothing but the book(s) it came with and see what sort of fun they can have with it, but I just can't really see that working well for younger children who aren't already more computer-literate if it doesn't include comprehensive documentation.

[@davidlloyd1526]

Erm... I think this is more for fun. Kids can use modern computers to learn.

[@michaeldibb]

I have enjoyed watching how the new 8-bit micro has developed. But I can't help thinking it has strayed from David's original idea. It's become like Frankenstein's monster.

[@brucemcfarling4674]

It strayed from the parts of David's original idea which are not feasible to do. An all-ASIC, all-8bit, upgrade to C64 sound and video system is just not feasible. You can bend on the all-ASIC (as the X16 project did), bend on the all-8bit (like the Agon Light), or bend on the upgrade to C64 sound and video, which many existing hobbyist 8bit systems do. As far as David's dream, he seems to be happily programming an upgrade of Planet X3 for the X16, so it seems like it's close enough to what he was thinking about.

[@doc_sav]

@@brucemcfarling4674 Then you can ask people to donate money to buy board assembly equipment and move on to some other profitable boutique retro board projects once you've sold all the x16s to the hardcore folks from the x16 forums who still want it.

[@brucemcfarling4674]

@@doc_sav The hardcore folks are the ones who will be buying the Dev board at $500 ... those in the market for the Dev board type system but who aren't hard core will wait until it costs $350-$400, as the production cost is clearly going to come down. And those who aren't willing to pay an extra $100+ for a board just because it has through hole components will wait for the ~$175 cost reduced system.

[@brucemcfarling4674]

@Jeffrey Craig After successfully buying 300 YM2151's from the supplier, they still had a back up plan in case there weren't enough, which is YM2151 core on the same inexpensive FPGA that they use for Vera. He shows the first trial run of a drop in DIP replacement board, made by Waveicle, in the video you are responding to. You seem to be pruning and trimming facts to get a better fit for the narrative you are constructing.

[@Okurka.]

@@brucemcfarling4674 $175? The goal is sub $50.

[@emmettturner9452]

For the board warping, try this: Preheat upside-down then flip for the immersion. If you don’t do this then the immersion will only exacerbate the temperature difference between both sides of the pre-heater. Immersing the slightly cooler side will normalize it and decrease the temperature difference once it gets hotter. Of course, you can’t flip if you have a brace on there so try this first. The Famicom cartridge/slot is a bad idea. Being more concerned that people would confuse it with an Apple ][ port makes little sense when bootleg Famiclone PCs with FUNCTIONAL Famiclone slots are FAR more common… by several orders of magnitude. Ignoring the Family Computer itself with Family Basic and the keyboard, there are already many 8-bit Famiclone including PCs Bung PC Doctor, the Jet Li/Jackie Chan computers from China, actual Famiclone/NOAC game consoles, and so much more. The least you could have done was design an incompatible cart shell, but then you guys spin the availability of existing shells as a positive too! Please don’t do this without some consideration for what will inevitably happen. The least you could do is make sure the voltage and ground pins match and won’t fry a Famicom cart. Maybe you can still key the slot with one of those insert pieces and notch the PCB if you still want to get away with using that slot and shell design. Otherwise, please reconsider using the shell design. That’s probably the easiest part to do-over anyway.

[@vulcanhammerinfo]

When I was looking for a job in 1976, I interviewed with Motorola (I think they were in N. Richland Hills, but I'm not positive.) They ran a "river" of solder under the board, looks like they did well with this. I had a friend who worked for them for a long time but I went with TI in Dallas for a little while.

[@Dondeath]

So glad you're doing well with the project. Keep it up

[@DeathbyDusk]

In dip soldering the board will always bend, its mostly about positioning and board layout to account for it.

[@beeffeter456]

This is truly fantastic. I would love to get my hands on one of these, especially after seeing both your channel and project grow exponentially.

[@Eremon1]

I'd be curious to see what those fake chips are by decapping them with a laser or nitric acid to see what the chip layout looks like. As for the cartridge vs SD card...I mean anyone interested in buying this would almost certainly enjoy the nostalgia of plugging in a physical cartridge. Plus with the added physical hardware capability of the cartridge it seems like a no brainer to me. Cool project, it's very nice to know there is still a ton of love for old school hardware/software.

[@adyendre]

This series of challenges are not really surprising to see or hear, and well represents what's like to produce an electronic product, even with (or brcause of) a batch of small quantity. Obsolete parts management and soldering process optimization are the everyday critical topic i saw when i was working for a precision equipment engineering company. Good luck for the project, but it really well highlighted inside-out of typical issues of electronic product engineering, and chapeau for communicating crystal clear on these issues for viewers/ stakeholders.

[@superjimnz]

Surely using PCBway's assembly service would have been a better solution, at very least the SMT? It's quite cost effective, and the parts may even have been cheaper through their suppliers.

[@petermuller608]

I don't think finding an SMD EMS is the issue, having a THT EMS is. I don't think PCBway is offering this