Commodore History Part 4 - The Plus4, C16, and C116

[@guyh3403]

I still remember myself crying my eyes out when I got an C16 for my birthday instead of the C64. That day the world ended for me.... I never got over it even lol

[@randommkeyz5029]

C16 are cool af

[@valley_robot]

C16 , better than no computer eh

[@guyh3403]

@@valley_robot That's true hehe

[@mmille10]

I think I would've had a similar reaction, lol. :)

[@raypatterson1899]

LOL I was that young boy too! Came to love my C16 in the end

[@thisisannoying11112]

The Commodore 16 was my first home computer. Its failure was good for me... I got the computer for $49 and the 1531 datasette for $19 on clearance at Target.

[@kimgkomg]

So you got it for it's intended launch price? What a steal?

[@mozamboni]

@@kimgkomg LOL @ "What a steal?"

[@brokeandtired]

I paid more for a Plus 4...BUT I also massively gained from access to cheap game tapes.

[@gloomyblackfur399]

@@kimgkomg If you watched the episode, that's the price Jack wanted to sell it at, but not the price Commodore greedily tried to unload it. So, yes, a great deal.

[@shaungreer3350]

i got my c16 from my mate for £10 when he found it in his wardrobe

[@pkaulf]

The Plus 4 was my first computer, and it's very dear to my heart. We used the crap out of it. Most of the games were disappointing, but I probably spent more time on it trying to program in Basic, using a lightpen to draw pictures, and messing around with the word processor. Later when we got a floppy drive and printer, I was able to save & print documents and so I started writing all my school work on it. I even digitised the account books for a local newsagents that my mum worked at. My dad was into amateur radio and even used the Plus 4 to access RTTY bulletin boards. It was excruciatingly slow, but interesting nonetheless.

[@stevengelatzku2288]

"Tramel didnt believe in Marketing. He believed in sales. " ... hell of a guy.

[@elphive42]

I can’t tell you how many times I’ve rewatched these documentaries. Fantastic work, and I’m still hyped for the Amiga documentary when that gets released, too.

[@katsumikougen8351]

The Amiga documentary is available now. You're lucky, my man! kzbin.info/www/bejne/oZvEoZyLhrScaNU

[@NavyDood21]

I know exactly what you mean! I like to rewatch it every so often, since it is so well done. These computers were a bit before my time, was born in the late 80s, but it is still fun to use. This series is what really ended up kicking off my interest in vintage computers.

[@NetworkXIII]

Long ago, I purchased a surplus C=16 keyboard at our local Radio Shack. I plugged it into a “reject” VIC-20 motherboard that I got from All Electronics. This was probably the first computer that I had ever built up from spare parts. Anyway, well done Dave, I enjoyed the video very much.

[@uwezimmermann5427]

I had the Plus4. My parents wouldn't buy me a computer before Aldi in Germany sold the complete package of Plus4 and 1551 for I don't know how cheap. It was a great computer - I really learned programming in both Basic and assembler. The built-in word processor was unusable to be honest, so in the late 1980s I wrote my own text processor fully in assembler code. It supported my Epson 9-needle dot matrix printer's commands to switch between fonts and styles. I also built a b/w scanner based on the printer's print head motion, an infrared reflex coupler and a variable voltage-level comparator. SInce the Plus/4 wasn't fast enough I would sample a full line from the scan head into a 2 kbit static ram which then was read out into memory before scanning the next row. I really loved this machine!

[@uwezimmermann5427]

@referral madness many languages... I mostly use python and C/C++ nowadays, but also perl, php. Some regular maintenance on older pascal code. Then a little assembly for different processors. And I believe I still put something together in basic as well... I would not count matlab/octave as real languages perhaps...

[@uwezimmermann5427]

@referral madness "Learning assembler in 2020" - not for practical use, modern C-compilers produce very efficient code and assembler language would be different for every different processor family - but in order to learn how a processor works I would like to recommend to at least look into the assembly language of some processor, preferably a modern RISC-architecture (ARM, AVR, RISC-V, PIC) Around 1990 I programmed my own text editor using 6502 assembly language. Lately I used some rows of inline assembler code inside a C-project because I needed exact timing of a loop on the same scale as the processor's clock frequency. The 24 bit down-counting loop takes exactly 6 clock cycles on an ATmega with a 6 MHz clock. I could have used the 16-bit timer instead, but I wanted 24 bit resolution...

[@uwezimmermann5427]

@referral madness I don't know if this is the right place for such discussions - but I'd like to recommend you to watch Ben Eater's 8-bit series, currently he is designing a 6502-based computer on breadboards kzbin.info/www/bejne/fqrdn6WaebiGfa8 When it comes to the binary numbers your are absolutely right. If you take a certain value and subtract 1 once very microsecond you can create a controlled delay. If you have an 8-bit CPU then the native numeric format is a byte and after a max of 256 µs your timing stops. If you add a second byte which you decrement every time your first byte reaches 0 you get up to 256 x 256 µs or 65536 µs or 65.5 ms. Add another byte to effectively count down 3x8=24 bits and you can realize accurate delays between 1 µs and 16.8 seconds with a resolution of 1 µs.

[@uwezimmermann5427]

@referral madness oh, you mean µs? That's microseconds or one-millionth of a second. 1000 µs = 1 ms and 1000 ms = 1 s, where s is the SI-standard letter for the unit second.

[@mjdxp5688]

what a flex, "i hated the word processor so i wrote my own"

[@kralg]

I was like 6 when I got a Plus/4, not even my father who bought it had a clue how to use it and what it is good for. I spent a lot of time discovering it and writing small BASIC programs (also from magazines), and I was so happy when something worked. Most of my schoolmates had C64 and gaming-wise it was not that good but it still had a couple of good games. Probably it was a failure but it is so good to see it again. Good old days...

[@fakshen1973]

The C64 was a corner-stone to my childhood... after enough protesting about my gifted Timex Sinclair 1000. It was magical. Thank you to all the engineers who worked on it... sincerely.

[@maxxdahl6062]

Mine too. Still have my breadbin 64. But now days I mostly just use my c64 mini out of ease of use.

[@FunPicard]

The C16 seemed moderately popular in the UK. I don't recall much in the way of big titles, but shops certainly sold the budget titles for it. The C16 was my first computer. I enjoyed it - certainly an upgrade from my Atari 2600

[@nneeerrrd]

Weird Commodore logic: this gonna be a business machine, so we remove hw sprites and rich sound but *put 2 joysticks in it!*

[@enossoares6907]

Lol

[@user_rKChwLeBqKYyurEfiSLFmCBNC]

yeah but if it is both there the money comes in

[@croysk]

And no 80 column mode

[@TortillaYT]

Keyboard and mouse? Idk

[@ppprime98K]

@@TortillaYT As far as i know using a mouse at the time were very rare and using a mouse was getting common in the 90's

[@RandomRetr0]

Learned to edit code on the Plus 4 and add lives to games and things like that. So many memories. Got it as an “upgrade” to my C16 when I was a kid. I spent countless hours playing Treasure Island “ that came with the computer, and playing “free” cassettes that came with commodore magazines compatible with the +4. I remember vividly having to loolk for C16/+4 on games to make sure they were compatible.

[@SuperNicktendo]

There's a Commodore 64 available in my area for $100. Never had an interest in them before I found 8bit guy. **Update** I found a Commodore 64, 1541 Floppy and a Printer for 50 bucks. Pretty happy with it. These history episodes are fantastic! Can't wait for part five.

[@classiccomputers6211]

Is it a complete working set? Seems like a bit much.

[@SuperNicktendo]

ClassicComputers complete in box and power supply. Unfortunately in my area I haven't found many for less.

[@frankschneider6156]

Until then you might wanna try the outstanding VICE Emulator. The C64 is a classic machine (grew up with it) and you can't really understand gaming history, if you don''t know the C64 (and partially the Amiga). Not to mention that at least the old 8-Bit home computers were pretty much bare-bones, meaning you really had to learn about computers to get somehow along with them (started learning Assembly because of it. E.g. using Android isn't making you do something like that. Android doesn't even give you a proper cli out of the box). This means learning about computing was highly incentivized, while modern systems try to shield the user as far as possible from any kind of technicalities.

[@SuperNicktendo]

Frank Schneider cool. Thanks Everyone for their input. I'll check out some cheaper options

[@DaveF.]

Plus, with an emulator, you'll be able to play games from both Europe and the states - not necessarily the case with a physical C64.

[@zoltanberkes8559]

When I was a child, the school had Commodore Plus/4 and Commodore 16 computers. I liked the design of the C= Plus/4, the cursor keys. Unfortunatelly, I only had a chance to buy a C= 16, which later got a memory expansion to 64 KB. I used the built in assembly monitor app a lot. :) In the video it is mentioned that most C= 116 machines are in Hungary, Europe. I live in Hungary, and as I mentioned, I learned on these Commodore machines, but I've even never heard about this exact model.

[@bartdunbar5108]

This series is why I like KZbin, thorough, intelligent, interesting and very professional. Well done

[@rbrtck]

It depends entirely on the independent content creator! There is plenty of crap on KZbin, as well.

[@MomMom4Cubs]

A truly underrated comment!

[@BillBolingjr]

I used to run Berkeley Softworks GEOS on my Commodore 64. in the 1980s. before I stopped using it, I had almost all the different GEOS programs. It was very popular in my area (Reno, NV USA) They later changed names and created a version for the DOS PCs

[@Dukefazon]

Greetings from Hungary! :) A rare occasion I'm proud to be Hungarian. Here's my Commodore History: When I was a kid we had a Philips G7000, also known as Magnavox Odyssey in the US. Later somehow we got a ZX Spectrum but neither of them was really strong with games. Then I remember the faithful night when my uncle came to visit and brought a Commodore 64 to my parents. I was sent in a room because it was supposed to be a christmas gift but I heard them over speaking "this can help them with learning". We got it for christmas and the two very first games I saw were Donald Duck's Playground and Yogi Bear & Friends in the Greed Monster. Both looked awesome but more importantly that Yogi game sounded super awesome! Later I got to know many great classics on the C64, my favorite to this day is Creatures 2 - Torture Trouble. At first we only had a datasette and tapes but later my brother saved up to buy a floppy drive. Whoa, those were the days, playing Zak McKraken and the Alien Mindbenders and such. Later my brother sold the C64 for about $18 and used that money to buy a used Amiga500 for roughly about $70. Do I have to tell you? Mind mind was blown! The first game was Flashback and I still love it to this day. We had many great games like Street Fighter 2, Mortal Kombat 2, Bubba N Stix, Yo Joe, Ruff N Tumble just to name a few. Later my brother sold the Amiga to help it financially to get a PC with Intel Celeron Mendocino CPU, 32MBs of ram and 8MB of whatever video card... So the great Commodore era of our family ended there. I have fond memories of the C64, the Amiga500 and the PC period, in Hungary we skipped the video game crash, we mostly skipped the Nintendo, Super Nintendo and Sega consoles, we mostly had ZX Spectrums, Commodore 64's and Amigas. Today I'm a console gamer with many consoles and a huge library of games (from PS1 through Dreamcast and Wii to PS4) but I still go back to the good old days and play some Amiga games. Last year I bought an ugly-dirty A500 without a power supply risking it might not be a working unit, cleaned it up, bought several boxed original games. I love the Amiga! Thank you for your time ;)

[@stephenpeterson7366]

Dukefazon you surrived communism

[@RetroDawn]

Don't forget the Enterprise 64/128. That was pretty popular in Hungary. And the Pravetz Oric and Apple II clones.

[@whitshade]

I owned one of these (got it for Christmas because the C64 was sold out). The productivity programs weren't terrible. They weren't really fantastic either. I seem to recall seeing an ad in Commodore magazine for the Plus/4 and it listed its OS as a version of PET BASIC. It was basic all right. We eventually got a C64. Thanks for putting this together.

[@numbers9to0]

I wish we could see in an alternate reality how the computer world would be when Jack never left Commodore.

[@MomMom4Cubs]

Hear, hear!

[@xRussianbishop]

Amigabook, The Cphone, I can see it now

[@JeffreyPiatt]

He is the man who destroyed Atari.

[@rabidbigdog]

It would have been ever-cheaper incompatible computers, with 40 columns and chiclet keyboards, Atari would have done justice to the Amiga design and Commodore would have failed sooner.

[@Waynesification]

There was mention, of a model that sounded like z8000, the 16 bit z80 CPU. There was a 6548 (mc6848). Which might have been a semi Amiga like chip originally planned to be used in the coco3. I wonder where the C65 design came from? Somebody failed to design a 16 bit 6502 early on, and another company due it. But, Mos was stuck at 1 and 2mhz. I imagine they didn't get money to set up more modern Ines, to run 8Ghz plus, 16 bit widened version of a 6502, before figuring out a modern version. The plus 4 would have been much better off though, as Jack wanted better things in it. However, a lot of this is lack of finances. Jack had to go to his Angel investor to get approvals. If he had the budget, what could he have done?

[@chrisfreemesser5707]

I seem to recall back in the day that one of the big mail order computer dealers, Computer Mail Order (CMO) bought a large inventory of the Plus/4 and maybe the 16 and sold them via a 30-minute infomercial. As a kid fascinated with computers I remember watching it a few times.

[@bwc1976]

I remember seeing that.

[@clays32]

Great video as always! But a really sad ending right before it cuts out it seems like he was going to cry over his friend passing away. RIP Dave DiOrio.

[@nux3960]

i honestly felt very sad

[@possiblyashrimp66]

he just blinked and looked down

[@Soundfactory24]

I bought the PLUS 4 here in Germany from the ALDI discounter for DM 200 (€ 100). The built-in monitor helped me a lot. It was my start in assembler programming. I even developed an Eprom burner board for the user port and wrote the programming software in assembler. The 80's was an interesting time.

[@diamantedante]

RIP to your cousin Vinnie. Like your late cousins' contributions to music, your contributions to technology history and curation will live-on for centuries. Thanks for all you do, David!

[@daviddavies3637]

My parents bought me an Atari 800XL with 1050 disk drive and 1010 tape deck for Christmas '85. For my sister, they bought a Commodore 16. She hardly ever looked at it but I did buy a few games for it myself. It was quite a nice machine.

[@Orlor]

I hope you get to your Amiga episode soon. The Amiga was my intro to home computing and holds a dear place in my heart.

[@fernanr8377]

just a few months and it will finaly arrive!

[@AntonioPetrelli]

Commodore 16 was my first computer, I bought it and my father gave a green-phosphor monitor for it after I had my First Communion. With it, the computer vendor gave me a nice book about programming on C16 and was fundamental for my current job as a developer. Probably, if I had a Commodore 64 I would have never learnt programming with much enthusiasm as I had with C16. After some years, however, I bought C64 with my pocket money too :-)

[@reggiep75]

You've always got to appreciate businessmen who decide to sell something at a good price and Jack Tramiel is one of them. Another great vid.

[@Seatiger]

My first home computer was a Commodore 16, I loved that little bugger, had some fun cartridges with nice games developed from Sigma, the Mexican manufacturer of Commodore who made contests for programming games in Mexico.

[@merrin7117]

I would like to give thanks for this video and the work that Bil Herd completed. He played a huge part in our current history.

[@rascal1234]

Interesting history lesson. I did buy the plus/4 as my first computer, but quickly upgraded to the Amiga 1000. From 1985 through 1987, I was stationed in Germany, and a lot of C64SD and c128 users on base had the GEOS operating system. This was usable on the 64 (better with the ram expansion cartridge), but really shined on the c128. I almost had buyers regret on the Amiga, because the c128 with GEOS was so slick. BTW, I still have my plus/4 and use it from time to time.

[@videooblivion]

The Plus/4 was popular in Finland and Sweden. RIP Dave DiOrio

[@allanm6246]

Sold well in the Hungary and the C16 Starter Pack had decent sales in the UK too.

[@memmoman]

hej

[@Kivikesku]

No it was not popular in Finland.

[@michaelolz]

@@allanm6246 didn’t Jack lay off a ton of people at AT&T or am I thinking about a different CEO?

[@allanm6246]

@@michaelolz Not sure. I need to go look at the documentary again. If it is still on KZbin.

[@Roadstar1602]

The good part about the early stages of dementia is that your videos are just as entertaining when I watch them again 2 years later. Literally the only thing I remember from this video is the bitmap of the Mustang.

[@keselekbakiak]

"He liked to make an OK profit, but not an absurd profit" Gaming company need to take example from jack tremmels!

[@TheCastellan]

And the rest of the world.

[@MinecraftPlayer-tl5lx]

*Tramiel

[@Alex-nk8bw]

CDPR obviously did. 🙂

[@felagoncalves]

If you don't like it when companies want to make "(...) an absurd profit", then STOP BUYING THEIR PRODUCTS! That's how the market works: if you produce quality goods at a fair price, people will buy it. If the price's too high or the quality isn't there, you'll not sell anything! Therefore, you'll go bankrupt. Why is it so difficult to fathom that you can simply CHOOSE not to buy, say, EA videogames? Why are companies "evil" simply because they want to make money? Is it not allowed to make a living out of being a developer, let alone its employers?

[@Tahngarthor]

The reality is game prices are the same or lower today as they were 30 years ago- and they cost vastly more to make than they did 30 years ago. This is why the trend is to include all the money making gimmicks like DLC, loot boxes, etc. - because they actually make far less money off each game sale than they did decades ago. So prices stay at 1990 levels but they still make their buck.

[@Wolverine5151]

Hy! I'm from Hungary. We had a Commodore 16 with a diskdrive and a casette drive, I had a lots of enjoyable moments with this machine. (The neighbor's son had a C64 which was a way more cooler machine than my C16. We played a lot with Golden Axe.) After we sold the C16 and upgraded to 286, one of our family member gifted to me a Plus/4 which was found at a loft as he mentioned. The Plus/4 already had a casette drive with a genuine german mushroom collector program. Such a good memories!

[@jordanscherr6699]

It's important to remember that Jack Tramell was a my-way or the highway guy. That's a strong trait to have when it comes to getting one's way, but potentially lethal if you don't have the clear focus of someone like Alan Suger. Suger knew where the "strengths" of his business lay and mostly stuck to them, only branching out where he had advantages to back them up. Tramell. Clearly Tramell did not know his own company so well, because he wanted what "he" desired, not what his company could actually do. He also missed something EVERYONE seeking to sell a "cheap" business computer kept forgetting. Businesses are willing to shell out some extra money for key requirements they genuinely need. You NEED a better keyboard. You NEED a built-in disk drive. You NEED a printer. You NEED enough columns of text, exc. If those drive up the cost a bit, then so be it. But for gods sake!... {(Put) (Yourself) (In) (Your) (Customers) (Shoes!)} I'm seeing that over and over again with businesses that fail. It's not about what you want, it's what "they" want. If you can't get past your ego, then only dabble in business where the two match! In this case, you had a case of the headless chicken when Jack left Commador. It's a problem we're seeing woefully repeat itself with Macintosh these days. But it was his mistake to neglect his marketing team's integrity. When he left, there wasn't anyone to take up what he had basically taken entirely on his shoulders. It's no wonder the plus ended up the way it did.

[@jordanscherr6699]

Thus why I respect the man. He and I do differ in that my first priority is not money, but the affect of my efforts. For me, money is a resource to an end with value in that aspect alone. That said, we share the same cold focus on what our clients want, albeit I do currently sometimes slip due to enthusiasm.. heh! But I never "ignore" the importance of the client's needs above my own.

[@The8BitGuy]

Actually, the market was so young at this point, that most companies did not understand this. In fact, this was at a time when most companies still didn't have computers on every desk for every employee. So it was hard to predict what would be actually needed by companies. It turns out things like networking capability ended up being far more important than disk drives or printers.

[@jordanscherr6699]

Agreed. You would have needed to look long and hard, or possess a vivid imagination, to see what people might need. As for the CPC, Suger didn't mess around with "whom" built the machine. (at least after a shaky start.) A proper and passionate computer company was found when it became clear help was needed. The architecture was shifted to something the OS programmer clearly understood. Staff where brought in from Cambridge as needed. So time might have been short, but all the cards where in the development's favor. When I say passionate about their work, I mean it. This was the equivalent of the BBC giving Acorn the boost they where looking for. Free publicity and mass production that was too good to miss DESPITE the crunched deadline. They weren't going to mess around with an opportunity like that.

[@lordevyl8317]

In all honesty, Clive Sinclair was like that too, although his execution was dodgy at times

[@unbiased1]

The Plus/4 was my first computer, the computer of my childhood. I still Love it!

[@andrasi_gyula]

Rest in peace Dave! The +4 was my first computer, which started a long career in game development!

[@StrangelyIronic]

I was curious about the Plus4, I remember seeing them for basically nothing even in the 90's. I wanted a C128 or Amiga at the time (which even then was old, I was born in '92, so this was around 96/97); but ended up with a fully spec'd out/upgraded Apple IIGS Woz Edition I got from an Uncle he got from where he worked as the head IT person (it was just sitting in storage so they gave it to him). Not terribly long after I built a Pentium machine for Win98, but I still kept using the IIGS to learn programming (and I still use that same machine setup today). I eventually got a Apple //e, IIGS upgraded //Platinum, C128, and Amiga 600 too. The only bread bin C64/Vic 20's I'm encountered were to repair sadly. While quirky, I personally prefer my IIGS over all of them. That said, I do like the form factor of the all in one micros of the era post bread bin like the C128, Amigas, and 64C. I really wish the IIGS came in a formfactor like that, but then again one of the main draws to the IIGS and original ][, //e, etc were the expansion slots that kept them viable for so many years.

[@ClicketyClack]

I love your Commodore videos. I have such great memories of figuring out BASIC on the C64 as a kid. Best machine ever made. :)

[@frankschneider6156]

Clickety Clack I guess it (together with movies like War Games or Tron) did this to a whole generation in the US and Europe and thus shaped the minsd and thus the future of many of these kids. I guess that's far more influential than anything the computer itself did or was capable of.

[@aa7ae]

When I was about 13, I purchased my first home computer, the Commodore Plus/4, using income from my newspaper delivery job I had as a kid. Previously I had a Timex Sinclair 1000 as a Christmas gift that I really loved. At the time, it was less expensive than the C64 and I mistakenly thought it must be better than the C64. In some ways it was, but in a lot of ways it wasn't and I quickly became aware of many of its shortcomings. Despite this, I made the best use I could with it and eventually even wrote a terminal program in basic and 6502 assembly for my digital ham radio hobby. I also played Zork II, but never managed to solve the game. I don't remember what happened to my computer, it's since disappeared into history. However, recently I purchased one off eBay in relatively good condition, but it just has a blank screen. I'm working on rebuilding it and hope to have a working machine soon where I can rekindle some of those old memories and maybe even make an attempt and writing a game on it, something I always wanted to do as a teenager, but never quite managed to accomplish. I also acquired the legendary joystick, something I always wanted, but never found as a kid. It's astonishing to see how much the plus/4 is being kept alive today even with some new and amazing games and demos I didn't know existed.

[@skoro1975asn]

(22:51) Pac-Pac is my game. Thanks for sharing.

[@TherealWolfGL]

im shocked that this is the shortest thing ive ever seen that's related to someone making a game

[@skoro1975asn]

@referral madness Thank you. I only know the assembly language. This is my hobby :). My latest Plus/4 game: kzbin.info/www/bejne/n6G5c42GhrB3nKc

[@fernandobernardo6324]

Thank you so much for sharing your work with us

[@triobros98]

I'm surprised you made that game good job

[@drsnova7313]

My first computer was a C16. My dad brought it home one day after a colleague told him "they have computers on sale" somewhere. It's what I did my first programming on, since there was no software that came with it. Me and my dad quickly saw the potential, but also that the C16 can't do much, and that there's not much to buy for it - so half a year later, he bought a C64-II.

[@lanatrzczka]

Really hope to see more of Bill Herd. Especially him talking about the C128. I remember reading a quote of some kind where it was announced "We have compatibility with the 64."

[@BigPhillyStyle1982]

I like your videos and your clear, usually concise, and carefully opinionated delivery. You make a lot of observations that I often wondered if I was the only person who noticed these things. In this video, you mention the power port on the C-64 being on the side. I had a nice desk in my room as a kid and the power cord made it so I couldn't retract and close the keyboard drawer the way it was designed to close unless I unplugged the power cord.

[@DirtyHairy1]

Thanks for having Bil. I feel like I want to see more from him. I'm sorry to hear your friend passed away. I can see myself in pictures with a dear work colleague, in weird looking outfit 20 years from now. This episode is dedicated to Dave!

[@faaaukkk309]

Finally explains why, as a kid, i got given this weird Commodore Plus 4 second hand: came with a load of unknown games. As a kid I always thought I was the only one with this 'strange' machine (couldn't work out why it wasn't a c64 like my friend had). Having heard the background story it all makes sense... Off to check out some plus 4 demos now! TED-series R.I.P.

[@CDP-1802]

I always loved that black breadbox design with the gray keys, I wish the C-64 had shipped in it!

[@CJ-rf9jm]

I've seen people doing them in vinyl dyes for diff colours. 1 in the user group I got to did a blue 64C, another did a breadbin 64 in purple with green keyboard (aka the hulk 64)

[@boheyo]

I think they went along with design trends of the time where black plastic = consumer electronics and games and beige = big boy pants computer but yeah that looks a lot better to me as well.

[@victorw9403]

I got my Plus4 at a yard sale several years ago. Mint in box, where it remains today. I've never checked it out. But it looks good!

[@JustWasted3HoursHere]

Bil Herd is a LEGEND going _WAAAAY_ back! So glad to hear from him!

[@TheSmarsden]

I've just got a working Plus4 again of eBay, I had one back in the day. Also got an original version of ACE +4 Combat simulator on tape. The first known software with digitized speech. I forgot it took 30 minutes to load! All good fun. Great video. :)

[@DigitalXAQ]

Commodore 16 was my first ever machine when I was at school. I still remember myself playing Treasure Island and that obsucre "Mayhem" game which was black and yellow with conveyor belts if that rings a bell to anyone! Never did understand that. Trying to find one again is not easy, UK based.

[@scouse1967]

They are still selling over on Ebay but for really daft money.Would love to get another Commodore 16 again.Just to keep it as a show piece really.

[@Koosemose]

I absolutely adored my Plus/4 (acquired at a yard sale in the early 90s), it was a great upgrade over the Vic 20 for a budding programmer, especially being able to do actual assembly in monitor (much better than having to do the equivalent in storing it in DATA and feeding the whole thing into POKEs). Of course the disk drive I got with it didn't work (and I didn't have the knowledge then to even attempt to see what was wrong with it let alone repair it) and of course it didn't work with the tape drive from my Vic, so any programs I made only lasted while the power stayed on. Sadly it ended up stored in a basement during a move, and from there got taken away by a severe flood (literally taken away, many things including the Plus/4 were washed away in the flood, and the Plus/4 was never found).

[@carlosio5]

It is only looking at this episode that I remembered I once owned a *Plus/4* . I'd been using a Commodore 64 (always with GEOS software) and I loved it. I can't recall what happened to the Plus/4....but I think it was just too difficult and limited and seemingly backward in comparison to the graphical & fluid (for the times) ease of use of the GEOS/C64 combo. I finally moved on to a MacPlus when it became available, which was an easy move after being in the graphical world of C64/GEOS. I've been an Apple Mac user ever since.💥

[@jasontwynn7356]

Thanks for all the fun time as a kid on your computer,RIP Dave.

[@Psychlist1972]

Can't wait for part 5. The C128 was the first computer I ever personally owned. I got it for Christmas in high school. Before that, I had only used what we had in school.

[@osrstudiossanantonio6386]

my first computer was aTRS80 Color Computer then the c64 then had for several years bought a commodore/plus4 for the extended basic the video chip fried so the it was toasted so I ended up going back to the c64 for until I got an Amiga 500. And finally sold out to IBM but I did like those older systems they were fun and i learned a lot. Enjoy your channel immensely you have quite a collection of gear nice to go down memory lane with you in this series.

[@RichardPickeringFNQ]

For anyone who typed a program in the 80's from a magazine into a computer this series is a must.

[@m.a.granados7960]

The C-16 was my first own computer when I was in my last year of Mechanical Engineering. It help me to write simulations for systems with solar collectors and water deposits and some subroutines for airflow into cooling towers, those lasts ones later included in a complete simulation in a PDP-11 for my thesis for Engineering degree. However, I was frustated because the accesories sold here in Mexico were mainly for C-64 and lack of support by the dealer.

[@WilliamLeeSims]

Thank you so much for making this series. It fills in tons of information that I was completely unaware of at the time. Beautiful work!

[@3DJapan]

Ooh I had the Commodore Plus/4 but I was just a kid so I didn't really know how to do anything with it. I think 8 remember my older brother writing a simple game on it.

[@willierants5880]

I'm loving this series. I was Jones'ing for an 8-bit episode checking the kickstarter every day several times a day, which has gone nuts! Over $100k and still climbing! This video finally helps me better understand the downfall of Commodore. Sr. Management messed it up. Who would've thunk it? Too bad because while my first computer was an Apple IIe with 128k RAM and duo disk drives and a color component monitor. And while I truly loved it, I continually think in retrospect that it should have been a C64 and later a C128. I do hope David covers the downfall of Commodore in more detail. I recall a comment discussion I had awhile back that helped stating that one reason Commodore failed was because they failed to capture the business market and as a result they lost the home market because Mom's and Dad's would want a similar platform at home to what they had a work, which was an IBM compatible computer. This argument makes a lot of sense, but is there more to it? I'm sure David can get to the bottom of it so we understand why we don't have Commodore compatible computers today, but IBM compatibles.

[@frankschneider6156]

Oh there are 3 other things: a) Commodore (for whatever reason) never managed to sell the Amiga in the US in significant quantities. It was primarily a European system and the Amiga also never managed to enter the business area (except for a niche in video editing, just like the ST did with the music industry), b) IBM PCs moved from EGA/CGA to VGA, thus suddenly becoming a competitive gaming platform, meaning you could do work AND play on the same machine. c) with Windows 3.1. the PC got a GUI that was at least somewhat of the same quality as the Workbench. At that moment (in the early 90s) people all over the globe moved over from Commodore home computers to PC compatibles, leaving Commodore a struggling company without any products that were selling, as everything they tried (e.g. PC compatible business computers or the CD32) flopped. Soon thereafter the ran out of cash and filed for bankruptcy. In principle all Commodore ever had was just 1 successful computer design: It started with the, PET which was moderately successful, followed up by an act of ingenuity: the VIC-20 which was a great success. The C64 is i principle just a VIC-20 on tons of steroids, and thus was a gigantic success. But that's it. The Amiga was also brilliant, but it was not developed by Commodore, but acquired by buying an external company (after Tramiel, now at Atari, had botched the deal). So in principle Commodore just manged to get 1 computer design right: the VIC-20/C64 breadboxes, that carried the company for more than 10 years.

[@willierants5880]

Thanks Frank!

[@_c_e_]

Loved my +4, leapin louie ftw! I had the orange and black monitor for it tho. It wasn't until many years later that I was able to interface it with a tv and be surprised by how awesome the colour was.

[@Ralph-yn3gr]

Rest in peace, Dave DiOrio.

[@gdplayer1035]

OoOoOoOoO

[@jasminejohnston6393]

Who was Dave DiOrio?

[@BaggyCEO89]

RIP

[@mountainbearoutdoors]

@@jasonmurawski5877 too right, without guys like this engineering the old tech your immature ass wouldn't even have the ability to run a childs game like Roblox. pathetic waste of oxygen.

[@theyamo7219]

RIP Chuck Peddle

[@garyneilson3035]

Very good and interesting video. The Plus/4 was my first home computer and like the presenter, I used to enjoy programming in both BASIC and assembler. In fact, it set me off on my career.

[@rodoherty1]

Those demos toward the end of the video are astonishing!!

[@yy-hj4br]

My condolences. Between listening to Pantera and watching your channels, you and your family really helped me through some real bad times. Thank you, and sorry for your loss.

[@kobe3576]

The Plus/4 looks so beautiful. It looks like a gaming machine, with these vents, black colour and the sleek appearance. I love it. Too bad it was not designed as a gaming machine. Still, it would be nice to have one to fiddle with.

[@rpeary5043]

My parents got me this thinking my dad could utilize those programs, instead of a C64. In a blink of an eye all support for it disappeared and I would desperately look in Computes gazette for the 1 or 2 basic programs that included Plus4 versions. I had one cartridge game, Jack Attack. I ran a 1541 disk drive and did have a dot matrix printer. Later I picked up a used C64 for $75 and used that thru high school,, when I forever went on to PCs in college.

[@hobbesyhobbit]

I had a Plus/4 as my first computer. My favourite games were Ace, Mercenary, Icicle works, Bandits at Zero and Winter games by Anco.

[@ralffischer3465]

I loved my C64 in the 80s. Played a lot, typed a lot prg's out of magazines (remember days of typing and hours of error-searching, before using a checksummer-programm, lol) Few years later my brother-in-law spended me a +4. Very special machine, but not as bad as often reported.

[@MarkTheMorose]

I remember the appearance, failure, and rapid disappearance of these machines. I had a C64 at the time, and like most couldn't understand what Commodore were hoping to achieve. To be fair to them, neither machine was ever marketed as a C64 successor. Here in the UK, it seems most C16s were bought by cash-strapped parents for their children, who were expecting C64s! In recent years, I bought a couple of Plus 4s, and while initially I was going to sell them on, because of the trickle of modern games that come along, I have a soft spot for it. I always feel for the underdog.

[@EgoShredder]

Yes that is correct and when I left school in March 1988, I went to work at a local games store. C16 / +4 games rarely sold and had a small shelf space devoted to them. Usually it was clueless parents that came in to buy the games, and looked to me for help in choosing a game for their kids. Most games on sale were budget ones, so no big loss if their kids were disappointed I suppose. Even in 1988, I was amazed to see new releases coming in for the Atari VCS / 2600 etc and even the MSX! The store was still there up until April 2017 but is now gone. bit.ly/2lx3LhF

[@MarkTheMorose]

Mastertronic did alright by C16 / Plus 4 owners. Them and Gremlin, actually. But of course, some of the modern games like Pets Rescue are just in a different league.

[@GeoNeilUK]

I'm surprised he didn't compare Pets Rescue to the Great Giana Sisters, the platformer that actually did come out on the C64!

[@vorrnth8734]

GeoNeilUK Probably because the sisters were just a super mario clone.

[@GeoNeilUK]

"Probably because the sisters were just a super mario clone." And Pets Rescue isn't?

[@MRxMADHATTER]

I almost fell for the C16. I bought one and a friend said hurry up and return it fo a C64. I'm glad I did.

[@bikkiikun]

The arrow keys on the plus/4 were absolutely awesome... perfect for kids playing games.

[@thomasschlitzer7541]

Nice video! Just a quick remark though. The C64 was actually factory shipped with GEOS in Germany. I remember my parents bought me the mouse later so I could use it more easily to do my homework.

[@Waynesification]

I would like to ask Bill something. 3 years late I admit. After the commodore 64, we were expecting an update the next year or so. The machine could have used extra sprites, like at least 16 a line, 16 colour routes, more colours, higher resolution graphics with 80 column text, and more ram. In other words, we needed something a bit like the C65 inside, in a plus 4 case. With a bigger business version with more memory banks and drive. The question is, why didn't they do this? Why did they make the c128 and plus 4, c16 and so many others? The commodore 128, could have had an better integrated 80 column mode, in a Vic 3 chip. The plus 4 should have had a 80 column mode for business use, and sprites and sound. We were told the C65 or 64GS, was going be Amiga like and compete with the Super Nintendo, but of course it seems to be no where near that, and needed at least 16 sprites per line to avoid the flashing we see on MSX and master system games. By the time it was ready to be released, the integrated ARM chipsets would have been better, and could probably have been made to emulate the commodore 64. The Amiga acquisition saved Commodore, for a while. Also Jack's refusal to utilise the Atari 7800 chipset at the time in an 8 bit computer, or redesigned into the original ST. It was the most advanced low end architecture until the Amiga, and at time of it's original release. Fully untilised, it could have taken on the Nintendo NES in console version. The Atari 7800 chipset was a well designed external chipset, by a professional arcade game hardware company. But instead, Jack scrapped it, only to send out old un-updated stock years latter. This was very inadequate compared to 16 and 32 bit machines out then or coming out. It's ironic that Jack's low budget approach likely held back Atari, from getting the Amiga, and using the 7800 at the time it was premium, and a few other things. But, also held back Commodore with the Plus 4 series, with no Geos, 80 column mode sprites or better sound. No c64 replacement or more advanced c128. Another thing is. If Atari had managed to acquire the Amiga, or released the 7800 in a home computer, Sinclair research could have been able to have less market pressure to release the Super Spectrum, which was built let an Amiga with redundancies removed. But, that was another story. The company behind that, Flair, eventually bringing their expertise to the Atari Jaguar (The computer console and games markets were full of failures, of companies to buy externally designed superior graphics chip hardware, that other competitors subsequently bought and succeeded with. Under shooting where they needed to be to beat competitors accross the life cycle, was common. An prime latter console example was the Sega Mega Drive/Genisis. It could have used more sprites, 256 colour, and a 80 column and high resolution mode, and easily be sold as a second cheap computer competitor to the Amiga and above the C64. It was like a MSX3 could have been, but like the MSX machines, except maybe the MSX2R, it undershot in the graphics department, where it could have had a wider market, and then went with limited stacked expansion options, rather than a new machine. The market was so good at shooting itself in the foot, that Commodore happily survived another another 5 years before decline, where, even having maybe three superior next generation Amiga replacement designs to choose from, they still couldn't do it). A shame. The shift to the consoles, the high end and the PC, really took away from the low end computer market. Even Sinclair suffered the exact same issue. Despite having a hires chip in the latter Timex model, and the Sinclair QL, which was also 8 bit and had more colours per pixel, they never made the Sinclair Spectrum with these. I have been interested in being involved in kickstarting an updated Sinclair ZX-81, as a what if demo, of how they could have designed it better with the processor node and technology potential of the day. With hires tile based graphics, 80 columns, 4 and 16 palletted colour, even 256 colour, and vector graphics, by simple alterations to the IC design, and sound. Then showing how such a machine could have been released at the time of the Atari VCS (with economical memory size etc. As it is tile based, not much memory is needed to do superior 1970's graphics, and early 1980's, even up to the time of the 7800 or Amiga). Sold as a computer console with low-cost storage alternative technology to cartridges, wireless controllers and maybe wireless video transmission. This would put graphics quality 5 years ahead. I was interested in doing a retro chip based on integrated Misc technology and more advanced graphics techniques, after that. The forth misc trchnology would have added another level of performance, putting 16 bit graphics in the 8 bit era. Misc is like the ultimate one could do in the resource hungry era. I've figured out, that pretty much any enhancement to 1970'a and 1980's low end computers, could be outdone using Misc and Arm based designs. It's pretty amazing, to think something that could be pit on a pin head now, could do that. A above 16 bit misc processor could probably be fine in over 4, 000 transistors, though I like to think less. An early one with video coprocessor was less than 10,000 transistors, but maybe that was a more integrated package. At 0.8 micron process node, it was doing up to 500 mips. So, at a 6 micron mode, it is likely to able to do a lot compared to an Atari 2600. This is before you put a simplified alternative circuit in that performs like an Atari 7800 graphic circuit. But, just tile based graphics is sufficient at 6 micron, with whatever transistor saving being used for on-chip SRAM. This can be a single chip system, or three die on carrier I'm chip system to improve yields.

[@guyh3403]

You call this a question? 😦

[@Waynesification]

@@guyh3403 it's a simple enough question, follow the singular (I think) ? Mark. Anyway, the stuff at Commodore was nothing compared to the mess at Sinclair. I found last night that many of the things I said, why didn't they do that, they actually had under construction but didn't bring out. The QL chipset had parts of it meant to be expanded into a Sinclair Spectrum compatable design. They should have made the spectrum based on it, and a better QL version on the 68000, with better graphics. The 68008 compromise hurt it. They should have had joke in the design for 16 and 256 colour and colour, pallets at all resolutions up to 1024x768 or 1280x720, and simply enabled, or added to it, for new computers, based on a common design. Some simple blitter and vector drawing, and tile graphics, would have been all that was needed to keep it going until the 3D era. We were really stuffed. Only Acorn/Amiga/ST eventually/Super Famicom seems to have pit in enough effort. There was a cut down Sinclair game console, which is maybe within the range of what I wanted to do. There QL chipset had been proposed to go into a Spectrum +. A 68000 based QL with 3.5 inch floppy. Etc etc. There were so many things that had they been fine might have progressed the company and saved it. One thing was not done due to fear it might be a repeat of the QL failure. There were Timex versions with better graphics, and thru could even put some extra modes into the new style Spectrum. Allan Sugar let somebody these things escape. The Loki hardware design was so good, it could have made Amstrad a top brand in the Commodore Amiga section of the market, even if not 16 bit, just on performance and price. Plus, these guys went on to design the Atari Jaguar chipset, and were up to design 16 and 32 bit processors, to cheaply compete with Amiga 32 bit. It's possible they could have competed with the Sony PS1, if they had gotten going earlier and made a success at Sinclair. The problem was no real formalisation of work and plan. People worked on what thru liked and got approval to advance things off of 1 of 3 guys. So things were not focused to move fast enough in best directions. I actually appreciate how Clive ran things that way, hiring bright young minds and letting them loose to do great stuff. But, I would focused more and give more orders, and vetting, to move things forwards. The c128 was a bit like that, but the wrong graphics chip was used, and other things. A vic-3 with the above spec was needed, as a cheap 64 upgrade and business machine basis as an alternative to the pro Amiga, until the Amiga could be made cheap enough to replace it. 50 million( Commodore 64/128/256/512/1MB, could then be possible, by 1990, and a better chip plant. A lot of this stuff, was buy now, if it had come out. The efforts on 16 bit 6502 was not funny, and the z8000 was too delayed. Commodore could have designed in blitter graphics base on tiles, instead of sprites to the 64, like the Atari 7800 had (not tile one though), which could have reduced chip size, and made it possible to make the plus 4 with it cheap instead of the 128.

[@johnnylongfeather3086]

Wtf

[@Dorff_Meister]

The first computer that really captured my imagination was the Timex/Sinclair 1000 with 16k expansion when I was about 12. Within a short span I got and outgrew a VIC20 and then got a C64 and a 1541 shortly later. These computers were life changing for me. I went DOS after that. In college (late 80s, early 90s) I considered getting an Amiga but the software I wanted/needed for my CS degree existed on PCs but not on Amiga (I'm sure I could have figured something out). [Notably things like Turbo Pascal, Turbo C]

[@Zankuho]

When I see '1' near 'The 8-bit Guy' I can literally hear the opening theme in my head

[@memmoman]

1 the 8-bit guy

[@vittosphonecollection57289]

Same

[@Turrican]

I had a plus 4 and I loved it. The fact that it was being sold so cheaply was the reason my parents could afford one. I'm thankful for that as its sparked my lifetime interest in computers.

[@unacomn]

Man, the beard makes Bil look like he's aged 20 years in the past 5 years. Great to see this bit of Commodore history brought to light.

[@Jerkwad152]

It's a proven scientific fact that a beard adds +10 to your STR stat though.

[@kenfagerdotcom]

I never used Commodore computers growing up, but these videos have been fantastic.

[@mikelee8520]

I am very lucky, I have the C16, Plus 4, C64, C128. My wife got me the C16 when it first came out here in the UK, and I have to say the Basic 3.5 ran rings around the C64, and also both the C16 and Plus 4 had a pallatte of 121 colours to play with. I loved to program in Basic a heck of a lot from the C16 then I got a 64K ram expansion for the C16. All in all they are all good. It depends on how much money a person has in the first place. Each has its own good and bad points, but that does not make for example the C16 a poor machine. The C16 came out with some pretty good games. Considering that the C16 only had 12277 bytes free, it done some good stuff that made a lot of boys happy. Its as simple as this, each to there own.

[@Nikolai508]

My Mum had a Plus 4 when they came out, it was her first computer. I used to play with it as a child in the late 90s. It was thrown away at some point due to reasons I can't go into but its such a shame that we lost that... I would love to be able to get it out and use that again. We had a tape drive with it and a bunch of games. I considered trying to get hold of a Plus 4 online as a president for my Mum, but it wouldn't be her original one, so I don't think I will, it would just be a reminder of what was lost than a replacement.

[@The_Haze]

Love this series. Can't wait until the Amiga makes an appearance!

[@micah1337]

my computer technician and I really enjoy all the electronics I've been looking for an old commodore. :) at a decent price even if it needs to be restored

[@petersuto6849]

I got my first computer of a C16 when I became 10 in 1987, we bought it in Wien when we could travel there. I based my programming skills then and motivated to learn programming in my secondary school. There were Commodore club events monthly and introduced to a guy who could expand my C16's RAM to 64K, so after that I could play with games requiring that amount of memory. But I never could understand why is its sound capabilities worse than C64 when C64 was running Basic v3.0, and C16 with Basic v3.5 That's the only computer I still got, but my game casettes lost when moving. Sadly it does not worth a lot.

[@flottenheimer]

Great video! The C16 was my second computer (my first was the Lambda 8300). I really enjoyed drawing stuff using nothing but Basic on the C16. :) C64, Amiga 500, Amiga 600, misc Intel PCs followed until I finally converted to Mac many, many years ago.

[@lajoswehovszki1413]

Greetings from Hungary and thanks for this amazing series of Commodore history! :)

[@kokstv9104]

In communist Poland most popular computers were 8bit Atari and C64 but there was at least one homebrew creator who made games for C16. He's name is Bohdan R. Rau and in an interview he admited that choose this obscure system because he like the challenge. In this dark times there was no legal way to sold and protect your product and piracy was overwhelming so being original was one way to get some recognition.

[@zka77]

C+4 my first computer! Instant like! Cursor keys were OK, definitely better than what C64 had. Shame about the missing sprites and proper sound. Monitor was good enough to code pretty much anything. Most of the +4 demoscene developed stuff in monitor all the time. Many of these demos/games shown at the end of the video are made by friends of mine :)

[@putrid.p]

No way, C64 cursor keys are the way they’re supposed to be! ;) I remember seeing 4 cursors keys for the first time on a PC keyboard in the early nineties, “wahhhh??!”

[@AllGamingStarred]

@@putrid.p at least they got it right, couldn't imagine it any other way

[@haweater1555]

11:00 The 1531 Datasette has a Canadian Tire store price tag on it! I can still remember buying my original C64 and 1541 at "Crappy Tire" ( was it in 1984?? ). Didn't know they sold the later +4 line. They probably had it on the shelf but it didn't sell, then dumped into the surplus market.

[@Yuzu-N8]

R.I.P. Dave DiOrio It was amazing making about of things.

[@manicsorceress2181]

Thanks for another great video. The C116 was my first computer ever. Games were mostly better on the C64. But programming in BASIC (and even Assembler) was way more comfortable on this machine. It got me into programming. I do not want to miss this experience.

[@SystemYTP]

I typed my first own programs on a C16, it played a major role in my decision to become a software engineer :)

[@loganmacgyver2625]

I'm always amazed how many programming careers started with "10 print hello 20 goto 10" Or the example programs from the books, the 8 bit generation brought us so many programmer's because those machines threw you straight into the water with programming

[@CC-ke5np]

The C16 was sold in large numbers in Germany thanks to Uli Hoeneß, a German football star. He had a connection to Commodore and had heard about warehouses full of C16 nobody had bought. His parents owned a major sausage factory which was a major supplier for the ALDI discounter market chain. So Mr. Hoeneß managed to persuade ALDI to sell the C16 as a "computer learning course" bundle. So in Germany, the C16 not hard to find. Most buyers bought a real C64 or Amiga after just a few weeks or months and almost every school has one rarely used C16 buried in a cellar room.

[@CommodoreFan64]

Another awesome video, and can't wait for the C128, as it's one of my Fav. Commodore machines ever, as it was the machine I first used with GEOS, along with going online with Q-Link, and BBS.

[@Chocolatchips]

I would be surprised if the +4 lacked a mountain of vector titles, because (as memory serves) the machine made vector graphics really simple. We only had one around for a short time, but it was super-easy to fill the screen with a mess of line polygons. Thanks for the nostalgia!

[@xTerminatorAndy]

You know when a show is good when you're bursting for a pee but want to keep watching regardless.

[@stomp4423]

First pc was the C-16 and couldn't get enough of Jack Attack! Still own it and It still works today. Even though at the time school was teaching us programming on Apple II and IIe's, no one had one at home. To this day is the only computer I've never built myself. 35 years later my addiction has blossomed into a handful of gaming pc's for the entire family and a basement full of 100 gpu crypto miners. Good times.

[@Minecraft101ToonLink]

Amazing work, as always! Can’t wait for the Commodore 128 video!

[@Wizardofgosz]

Same with the C128. They gave it a C64 mode, so lots of manufacturers never wrote 128 software when they could just write 64 software, since it would run on the 128. SUPER frustrating if you were a 128 owner.