Commodore History Part 7 - Disk Drives

[@MechMK1]

Other Guys: "Hey, you want to check out my Porsche?" Dave: "You know, I own a genuine 1551 and 1581!"

[@zarkeh3013]

That Indus GT tho...

[@GrandmasterofWin]

I know which one I'd rather chat with though

[@csgd-zq5du]

And the Commodore 116 too... :)

[@bastiantruderung5948]

@@zarkeh3013 9999o9

[@BillAnt]

Then Robin of the "8-bit How and Tell" channel shows off his super rare dual FD-2000 custom drive... wow! ;D

[@bghoody5665]

I remember my high school computer lab being set up very similarly to that at 0:45 - one disk drive servicing multiple computers (PETs iirc). We'd have to shout "accessing" whenever we'd access the disk drives because if more than one computer were to access it at the same time, it would crash the system.

[@AlexWMY]

We had other computers, but a similar setup. At the beginning of the lesson, we loaded them strictly one after another. Now that would be so funny.

[@TourmeisterTWT]

Wow! I had completely forgotten about having to do that! We had them when I was in the 9th grade in 1980. The teacher would go nuts if you forgot to do it!

[@melkiorwiseman5234]

If I remember correctly, the IEEE-488 protocol included a way for multiple "bus masters" to coordinate with each other to share a peripheral over IEEE-488, but fairly obviously that standard was ignored by Commodore because they originally did not expect drives to be shared. Possibly also, they couldn't justify the extra expense required to have someone program the protocols into both the drives and the computers.

[@8_Bit]

Thanks for the chance to give you a hand with this video!

[@The8BitGuy]

And thank you for your assistance! It was much appreciated!

[@RacerX-]

Thanks for showing that prototype FD drive. I am looking forward to seeing more of it in your video and how LOADSTAR, one of my favorite 64 disk mags used it!

[@basvanharen2904]

Also liked your documentaire of the Commodore drives, you beat David and where first😉

[@billkeithchannel]

Cute. I see what you and your talking hands did there. Your video of the Christian album was how I found your channel via the KZbin sidebar suggestion.

[@DerykRobosson]

I thought that his was your follow up video based solely on the thumbnail.

[@Porygonal64]

Techmoan: Audio Electronics c. 1940s to 2000s Technology Connections: Video Electronics c. 1950s to 2000s LGR: Computer Electronics c. 1980s to 2000s The 8-Bit Guy: Computer Electronics c. 1970s to 1980s

[@NaokisRC]

Some of the best times for interesting tech

[@ImpetuouslyInsane]

And I'm subbed to all 4 of them.

[@b-rad6723]

8 bit

[@charlesworland2549]

Obtaining multiple opinions on the same topic is always preferable.

[@protheu5]

The 64th Shadow: Tech KZbinrs c. 2010s to 2020s

[@CanKenMakeIt]

I played this episode at 25% speed in honor of the Commodore disk drives.

[@frugalprepper]

LOL

[@playingintraffic9037]

Legend has it, he's still watching this video to this day.

[@ShieTar_]

You know you could speed it up to 50% if you switched of the screen, right?

[@dustbowlhammer7119]

I'm dying right now xD

[@Kidd-nt3jo]

LOL

[@MrStarchild3001]

Old C64, Amiga 500, Amiga 1200 user here (1989 onwards). After your videos, I kinda realized I was conned by the popular media that Apple I, II. Lisa, Mac etc were unique, revolutionary machines in 1977, 1982 etc. Your Commodore history clearly demonstrates Apple had many strong competitors. I understand that Woz and Jobs were visionaries. But there were many others with the same vision. In particular, Amiga developers were amazingly ahead of their time! (That's why I'm looking forward to hearing your story of it). Even Commodores up to and including C64 were amazing machines for their time. Cheers.

[@lovemadeinjapan]

I would put Atari in between on the visionary ladder. Their 1979 Atari 800 outperformed the C64 at launch, which is really amazing. Also the ST was a way more solid product than the Amiga and revolutionaired the music business. Commodore really was popular because they were above all cheap.

[@bitset3741]

@@lovemadeinjapan Big fan of both machines, and have both, but the 800 does not outperform the C64. The C64 has a better video chip in many ways - better sprites, had color ram etc. and a better sound chip in the SID (Arguable, I love Pokey Bass and game sounds) but the 800 had a faster CPU. And it could use that CPU to multiplex sprites and do scrolling etc. fast enough to roughly equal the C64. When JUST doing computations - yes the 800 did outperform the C64, but not when running Basic - Atari Basic is fully featured - better than Commodores Basic 2.0, but was notoriously slow.

[@lovemadeinjapan]

@@bitset3741 And then C64 BASIC was horribly slow compared to its peers. Atari Basic must be really bad then. Not to mention C64 BASIC is total garbage to use. And SID.... It was a good starting point to found Ensoniq, but I never liked it as music chip in a computer. A bit like the pine nuts... Nice at first, but always the bad aftertaste. I feel I get brain rot of SID sound.

[@lovemadeinjapan]

@@bitset3741 And an Atari 800 just looks cool. I really like the appearance. A C64 is just ugly. Can't make anything else of it.

[@JuiceThe511]

Thank you soooooo much for this series. As an avid C64 user back in its heyday, this trip down memory lane is a wonderful bit of nostalgia and an effective way to learn more about the architecture.

[@emanuelebonura783]

9:28 "Usually causing the head banging sound" ~ Pantera plays in the background

[@iamvonimmel]

Its funny because he's Dimebag's cousin

[@mutated__donkey5840]

ChannelWes I was bout to reply that lmao

[@rustyhangerabortions]

@@iamvonimmel Wow, I didn't know that. Guess that explains how he can afford all that shit.

[@MicroFourThirdsCorner]

Great video. Brought back a lot of memories. I have to admit I was one of the programmers that wrote the turbo loaders, custom disk formats and copy protection systems using the internals of the 1541. I left that (full time) job to move on to programming and then designing high speed floppy disk duplicators and ultimately CD/DVD/BD duplicators. That's now ancient history too, so this was a nice walk down memory lane. Oh, and yes, I got grief from customers who bought the "compatible" disk drives that ultimately didn't work with my disks, especially those that didn't provide the Block Execute command available on the 1541, which was how I started the loading sequence happening from the 1 (and only 1) tiny file ever to be seen in the directory. Everything else was direct block access. Oh well, nostalgia at it's best! Thanks again!

[@mattandsarahaschan]

1 year later, I'm staying tuned for the next one

[@The8BitNerd]

I don’t think there will be, because commodore didn’t really produce anything else noteworthy other than maybe the calculators they made before the PET.

[@freebretth]

@@The8BitNerd The Amiga wasn’t noteworthy??

[@heatherjohnson6836]

El no next one this is over

[@AndersEngerJensen]

This makes me realise how happy and easy my life was as a MS-DOS user, instead of having to deal with the regime of floppy disks on the Commodore platform. :O Great video and a good in-depth look at this part of the Commodore saga. :D

[@1948hjr]

Anders Enger Jensen oh boy only 10 subs away from 10000 subs i want to say GG already ;D

[@bricew.o.n.g9140]

Anders Enger Jensen hello

[@r000tbeer]

At the time that's all there was. Even for PC users unless you had the money for a hard drive.

[@AndersEngerJensen]

Lassi Kinnunen Haha, no. At that time I was on CD-ROMs indeed. Still have many of them, but they’re starting to rot now. Did a comb through and copied out what I needed. :)

[@CommodoreFan64]

@@AndersEngerJensen I love your work, but I have to question if you had a CD-ROM drive in 84 when they where first released, or was it much later in the 90's? Because in the 80's having an HDD, or CD-ROM drive was very expensive, so yeah most people used floppies 5.25in or 3.5in, or tape drives. it was not till around the IBM 286 machines where HDD became more common place upgrades in IBM and clones.

[@patrickcorrelliiii4063]

there should be an official name for this series, like “Commodore Chronicles”

[@EricICX]

yes please

[@wild_the_echidna9100]

I WANT *I NEED*

[@xanderplayz3446]

its commodore history duh it is on the video name

[@highgreennc]

maybe "We're going to slow Commodore"..... like.. ya know.. a naval rank... :P

[@m90sanimations56]

I have a name for the Apple Series, The Apple Archives Idk it's similar

[@nobytes2]

I find this series just amazing. A time when PCs took off, programmers really had tons of limitations like ram / graphics / cpu speeds. Things we just take for granted nowadays. I actually didn't have access to a computer until I joined the US Navy as I grew up in Mexico, public schools weren't setup with computers. Ha I had barely seen any computers at all. In the Navy 2004-2008 Arleigh Burke class destroyer still had tons of old equipment like magnetic tape recorders, floppy disks drivers, even dot matrix printers. Really is where my love for software started. I hate that I didn't have this growing up but I guess things happen for a reason.

[@AntiXGeeK]

I miss programming the old 8-bit machines, once I went to PC, the charm was no longer there, I lost my passion of making an 8-bit machine 'dance' undocumented features so to speak, doing things it was not supposed to do ;)

[@ClayMann]

The work that goes into these videos is amazing. Even something as dry as a video about early disk drives was thoroughly enjoyable thanks to excellent writing and editing. Great stuff.

[@davidinark]

“Were popular at copy parties.” (Heh-heh) “Moving along....” Hahahaha!! Ah, copy parties... man I miss those days.

[@glitchvomit]

what's a copy party? :O

[@davidinark]

@@glitchvomit Not sure if you're asking seriously or being facetious, but copy parties were a gathering where people would bring their games, applications, etc (some home-brewed, more often pirated commercialware) to someone's house along with their drives and c64s to copy everyone else's disks. Folks would spend hours together watching and waiting for their copies to get done, trying to figure out various copy-protection hacks, copying (usually by hand) various keycodes, dialing up BBSes for research and forum chats, etc. It was awesome!

[@glitchvomit]

@@davidinark oh no i was being genuine! thanks for the explanation ^_^

[@LERobbo]

Remember the ones in Venlo, The Netherlands. People would bring their drives, start the copy, disconnect and move onto the next set. 1541's were beasts in their own right!

[@user-xn3kt6bn5r]

lol, the private trackers of the 80s. I bet most parties were invite-only too! Haha.

[@brennorris1720]

This series is fantastic. My inner nerd is simply having a tantrum over having to wait for the amiga episode.

[@Warp2090]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/oZvEoZyLhrScaNU theres the video (you've probably watched it but still)

[@RacerX-]

14:12 the 1541C was a unique drive. I have 2 bought back in the day and they both have a turn type newtronics mechanism. Not sure if yours with the alps was uncommon. But I do know they they were more then just a color change. They also have a track 0 sensor although it is disabled from the factory. The true 1541C drive will knock the head at power on and reset. The drive motor will also spin when you insert and remove a disk, like the 1571. There are jumpers on the logic board to enable the track 0 sensor (or Zero Stop as it is also called) and then the drive does not knock any longer. Not sure why they disabled it from the factory as I have had mine enabled for years with no problems. Supposedly it was for compatibility reasons. They also created a more integrated logic board, which is the shortest of the full size 1541s. The ROMs on the 1541C also fixed the SAVE@ save with replace bug.

[@hyperslime64]

I actually have one of those drives, and I was terrified when I heard the disk knocking on boot. Do you know how to turn the sensor on?

[@RacerX-]

@@hyperslime64 It's a jumper/solder pad on the board you have to cut I believe. Edit: it is J3 you have to cut. There are three jumpers, 2 are for device number select and the other is for enabling the track 0 sensor (some also call it the track 1 sensor because Commodore disks start with track 1 but it is the same) It won't knock anymore after that. That said I these drives don't really got out of alignment as much as the alps ones did. The knocking on my 1541C was not nearly as loud as on my old 1541 alps drive. If you were an Apple II user the knock was part of life as those drives knocked at bootup from the beginning.

[@hyperslime64]

@@RacerX- Well, upon further searching on the interwebs, I heard that only the lever (Nutronics) mechanisms have the sensor... and I have a 1541C with the pop (Alps) mechanism. I'm guessing those don't have the sensor, but I could be wrong...

[@RacerX-]

@@hyperslime64 Yep that is correct. From what I have seen only the Newtronics mechanism 1541C models are "True" 1541C models with the improvements. The Alps models use an older revision board with the newer case color style. Good old Commodore! LOL. However, if yours knocks when you power it on then it probably has the newer ROM. So you could swap out the ROM with the one from the 1541-II and that would at least stop the knocking on Power Up. It won't for disk errors and such but it's better than nothing.

[@cnhawk8371]

Thanks for this episode. Brought back OLD OLD memories. I went from the VIC20 straight to the C=128 as I always hated the breadbox design... bulky and painful to use. The C=128 was sleek, and so 80's designed. When I finally saved enough for the floppy drive, I got the Enhancer 2000. It was cheaper than the 1541, faster, smaller and cute. I loved that drive. But - one day, one of my C=64 games wouldn't work, tested it on a friends C=64 set up... and it was the drive compatibility problem! Because it was the 80s, stores like Toy'r Us, Sears and Target had 90day returns. By chance, I had my receipt the discovered the problem on day 89 and took the Enhancer2000 back to Target on the 90th. I bought the 1571 at the Target, it was $280+ tax. I loved my 1571, modern and fast. Still have it in a box, looks almost new. C=128 turned yellow. :( Likely won't power up. Still have my Amiga 1000 and 3000.

[@alangiles2763]

CnHawk I really ency you your Amiga 1000. I would have loved one of those

[@grotekleum]

You missed out a drive that I had, a Commodore SFD 1001 1Mb that ran (I think) double density 5.25 disks. I had a 240v to 120v transformer and it had a different interface that plugged into the cartridge port of my CBM 128 with an IEEE-488 plugging into the drive. I used it to run Superbase 128, that was available on this drive, for a charity membership/subscription database. Happy days. Thanks for sharing.

[@reelmccoyfx]

My 1st experience with a 1541 was entering the disc testing program out of the manual and running it. 1.5 hours later, the 1541 stopped working due to overheating and warping the flywheel. Ooops! Next day, an MSD single was put in it's place and that sucker was a rugged.

[@Francois_L_7933]

I remember seeing an MSD drives a few times when I was a kid. There was this guy who sold pirated copies of games for 10$ a disk every Thursday night. He eventually got a visit from the Mounted Police (the highest level of police authority in Canada) and then it was game over for his sideline.

[@Toonrick12]

Everybody gangsters till the Mounties arrive.

[@jessragan6714]

"Hi, I'm Dudley Do-Right. I'm here because you've done wrong."

[@HelloKittyFanMan.]

K, I gotta question. Why would horsey coppers outrank ones that can get around more speedily and safely?

[@Epitome613]

@@HelloKittyFanMan. Welcome to Canada!

[@hhs_leviathan]

@@HelloKittyFanMan. No, it's because they bring the most effective way of dealing with contraband: HORSES. EAT. EVERYTHING.

[@FinalBaton]

Euro viewers : YES! it's finally time for the Amiga episode!!!!! At last!!! 8-Bit Guy : This is the story of some Commodore disk drives. Euro viewers : NOOOOOOOOoooooooooo..... :^(

[@CoyoteSeven]

Fun fact! Early in the Amiga's development at Commodore, they were planning to give it a Commodore serial port. I remember seeing evidence of this back in the day but I can't remember where, now. I wonder how far they got with that before they decided to ditch that idea.

[@TheJeremyHolloway]

@@CoyoteSeven Interesting. Back before the Commodore buy-out, the ex-Atari engineers at Amiga hadn't considered making an updated version of the Atari SIO port for the Amiga. And that was even when Joe Decuir - who designed SIO - was working there...

[@FinalBaton]

@referral madness Not yet! That's his long-awaited episode ^_^

[@BjrnOttoVasbottenbjovas]

Has he never made amiga episode?

[@no_fb]

@@BjrnOttoVasbottenbjovas Not yet, I hope he'll make one. Perhaps he's ... meditating on it ;-)

[@nickkapirnas]

I wasn't expecting a 28 minute video on disk drives to be all that interesting but as always these Commodore history videos are excellent, good job David!

[@MatroxMillennium]

I got a VIC-20 fairly recently, after I had already owned a Commodore 64 for a number of years. I remember being surprised when I found out I could send a command to my 1541 drives to make them run faster on the VIC-20.

[@adamfox9651]

I remember how happy I was when I got my 1541 and upgraded from the slow cassette. I also remember how happy I was when I got my Epyx Fastload cartridge.

[@jovetj]

It's the little things in life.

[@RDurfee]

Same!

[@lochinvar00465]

I had the Mach 5 cartridge. It made the 1541 a LOT faster and a bunch of useful extras to boot. I still have my 128D, a couple of 1541's and the tape drive. The Epyx Fastload seemed to be the most popular, never heard anything about it that wasn't stellar.

[@poitsplace]

Anyone remember Vorpal Utility kit?

[@TheGriegs]

This is such an entertaining channel. I get really nostalgic when I see the screen, listing directories etc. Thank you so much for dedicating part of your life and free time to this.

[@jasonteknut]

Wow that's an impressive collection of Commodore disk drives...

[@ian_b]

In a world gone mad, your videos are an oasis of calm. I really appreciate your channel, keep going forever! :)

[@vinniecorleone62]

I got my first C-64 in '87, fantastic memories as I spent much of my Friday paychecks on $50 floppy disc software every weekend, lots of MicroProse games then!

[@lochinvar00465]

Miss those days in more ways than one.

[@alangiles2763]

@referral madness We were all 33 years younger for one thing!

[@alangiles2763]

@referral madness I'd like to take it back a little further to 1975 and the Hombrew Club, where understated geniuses like Steve Dompier were thick on the ground.

[@andrejszasz2816]

22:55 I have a disk drive Oceanic OC-118N, which looks identical to the Excelerator that you show here. It worked great! The led was also dual color so it had a funky green-orange-red color transition with the pwm led flasher tiny software 😃

[@spokehedz]

When the Indus GT came out, I got a little pang in my heart. That was the drive that we had for the Atari 1200XL, which is my C64 from my childhood.

[@CreachterZ]

Alexander Borsi Came here looking for the Indus GT. Then I saved up for a whole summer for my 10 meg Lt. Kernel for my BBS. It was huge!

[@RobinDale50]

I still have 2 Induses for my Atari's. Great drives and if you ever ran them in high density speed mode they were very fast.

[@spokehedz]

@@CreachterZ I just remember playing Astro Grover and paint program... I was very little. But, good memories all the same.

[@spokehedz]

@@RobinDale50 I was too young to be into modding drives, but I bet my cousin did this.

[@RobinDale50]

@@spokehedz No mod needed on the Indus for Atari, they were built with a high density mode in the drive. Just needed the right DOS to use it.

[@kenfagerdotcom]

I don't have any experience with Commodore computers, but your videos are so engrossing. Excellent work David!

[@skideric]

Dang! Part 7 is Best Yet ! Sure wish hadn't sold my 1581 ! Got my 1541 II modded with a C64 DTV inside !

[@MackDaddi]

That switch on the back of the MSD drive is most likely an override copy protection switch. So you can copy a disk without having to have a notch on the disk. Great for making professional looking copies of software. Without having to notch the disk.

[@OriginalMergatroid]

Copy protection, what we call DRM now, is not the same thing as Write Protection.

[@crunchysuperman]

Pretty sure I remember putting JiffyDOS in that MSD drive, so that's what the rear toggle is probably for. Yes, the switches are gaudy, I was a kid - sue me :)

[@RickTheGeek]

I've seen plenty of drives out there with extra switches - mainly for device selection - and i always thought the best place to put it was on the front lower right kinda opposite where the green power LED was. That way the lid could be removed for servicing and not have to worry about wires attaching the top case if the switch happened to be there. But then again, I *gasp* drilled a hole and put a reset button on my breadbin 64 too.... :) Dave does really good work in making his equipment put on youtube look as pristine as possible - and that can be a challenge because these were considered expensive but common "back in the day"... Looking at Apple II equipment, I've seen a lot of machines with school names etc written on the machine with permanent marker or even worse, engraved into it!

[@jovetj]

*@ungratefulmetalpansy* You're being far too grateful. It was not good or even very good. It looks like ass! But, when you're a kid, as long as it works it's even better when it works in your face!

[@AiOinc1]

@@jovetj Yeah and I've seen people drill holes in the top of 1541s for ventilation. Considering he at least put some labels on the front switches, it's what I would call "Very good" by comparison. Quit being a whiner, it's not even your drive.

[@jovetj]

*@AIO inc.* It's not a matter whining, it's a matter of having standards. I did not consider it worthy to elaborate on why it looks like ass, but if you really want the rundown (at *crunchysuperman's* expense) then I will give one. I can easily imagine that my design aesthetic taste might differ from yours. He explained the situation, which makes perfect sense to me. Certainly it isn't worth suing over. But to declare it "very good" is preposterous, even laughable. (I will happily admit it could be a lot worse, too.) And it matters not that it is not my drive... opinions are like assholes, and I have both!

[@AiOinc1]

@@jovetj There's one word for your statement: Pedantic. I want to ask you something, who cares? It doesn't matter if it's not your drive, and the fact you're still here and still complaining about something minor on a piece of equipment that is comparatively better done than many other modifications considered common at the time just goes to show how little there must be going on in your personal life. If you really care that much, go out and buy them and restore them. Otherwise, shut up about it.

[@coolpoete]

If there is one person who could make a video about Disk Drives interesting is this guy. And I've never owned a commodore! Love your videos man!

[@NeilRoy]

Great video, and nice to see the 8-Bit Show and Tell hand in this. ;) Love both of your channels. I like it when you guys work together like this. Great stuff.

[@tonybossaller4074]

The MFM on the 1571 makes a lot of sense. I purchased two ICT DataChief hard drives. One was epoxied to hell and back so you couldn't really see the board, but my first one was bare. It was a plain 1571 motherboard with an 8-bit ISA MFM card attached. This connected to standard MFM hard drives like the Seagate ST-225 or Tandem's clone of it. I also own a Lt Kernal hard drive but it used the SCSI version of the ST-225. So I have one of each that currently (well last I checked) worked. My ICT DataChief however is VERY susceptible to random power differences (and I think mine, both, were grounded improperly. Not enough to shock but overtime if you were leaning on it, for example, your arm would lose sensation over time. This mine stayed on a UPS all the time.) I also have the SFD-1001 drive as well as a few 8080s though I think only one works still. Speaking of the ICT DataChief, I never owned but saw the MiniChief in person. As I recall, they basically used the 3.5" drives (most were 5.25 at that point) and crammed it into the bottom of the 1571 case, and the plethora of wires ran up to the drive controller from the ISA MFM card. (The PSU was removed the drive to make the space available.) I could go on and on about the DataChief as it ran my BBS for about five years and I worked with ColorBBS 64 and128 versions to implement directory management. Things like chaining partitions together, rearranging files between those partitions, etc. But the ICT drives still had a working 1571 which was treated as partition 0 and could be selected. Amusingly enough, the drives were fully 1571 compliant, allowing the drive to be formatted as 120 1541 partitions or 60 1571 partitions (odd only, even partitions wouldn't have data on track 18. And it started with partition 1 because 0 was the 1571 itself.)

[@jbevren]

Regarding the Indus GT, the Atari version used a z80 processor and could be used to run cp/m directly on the drive with a ram expansion while the Atari computer acts as a terminal. The extra port on the rear of the Commodore version is actually a parallel port wired to both ports. These go to the VIA port that would normally be unconnected on a 1541 drive through a bus transceiver whose direction is controlled by CB2 and enable controlled by CA2. When fixing my unit some years ago I spent time to trace these lines on the pcb. This could have made for a good parallel loader with the user port. Interestingly, my unit doesn't have the 1: drive as it has the 1541 version of jiffydos in it.

[@johngaltline9933]

I have most of these drives and fond memories of them all, As a part time programmer of software for the Commodore and die-hard data hoarder, my father tended to buy the highest capacity drives he could. Still have hundreds of 1581 disks with no idea what is on many of them. The CMD 40Mb HDD was the real game changer, later upgraded to an 80MB drive.

[@RussMichaels]

The CMD FD2000 drive was awesome, so many features and modes. The ability to create 1541 simulation partitions was very useful. It always bemused me why the 1541 was so slow, when it could be sped up so easy with a turbo catridge

[@kmabru]

Agreed that it was awesome. I had one and as an experiment, I formatted a disk as one big partition and copied the files from all disks for Pool of Radiance over to the one disk. I was surprised when it actually worked. It even fixed the problem with the bug for one of the missions. I forget which one it was, but you could finish the game without doing that one. If you did it, you couldn't continue with anything else due to a corrupted file. I also had the RAM drive add-on for the C64 (I forget exactly what it was called). That was another awesome device. Wish I still had all of that stuff. LOL!

[@RussMichaels]

@@kmabru you mean the RamLink www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/RAMLink

[@GiordanDiodato]

apparently the Japanese team eliminated that section to match the schematics.

[@shawnrainer]

I was an Atari 800xl kid and didn't have any friends who rocked a C64. I dig this series and am fascinated with the engineering that went behind Commodore tech. Thank you for posting!

[@lovemadeinjapan]

Lucky you. Somehow Apple and Atari did not succeed across the pond. I would love to pick up an Atari 800, but they are impossible finds in PAL.

[@lochinvar00465]

I remember when I finally ended my 1541 head banging. Can't remember if it was a feature of my fastload cartrige or a simple drive commend. I also had three switches added to my drive, two for device select and the other for write protect override. I currently have a 128 with a 1571 that needs a head replacement but otherwise is fully functional. Curiously, I usually used it in C64 mode. One game I had (Echelon) was on a double sided 1541 disc and I made a copy of it on a 1571 disc which meant that I didn't have to manually flip the disc during the game. It was one of the very few "non-protected" games.

[@Megatog615]

dude the music you put in your videos when you're explaining things is so good i am compelled to turn it up at those times

[@Megatog615]

oh my god when you're talking about the 'typical floppy disk' and the sectors light up in tune with the hat n u t

[@tm0054]

I love this series- it's really interesting! I would love to see a similar Atari history series too.

[@kevinphillips5789]

Great video, as always. I think one awesome drive system left out was the Lt. Kernal HDD system by Xetec. As a BBS operator, that 20MB hard disk was a game changer for my Commodore 64 life. Suddenly, I had the most popular BBS in the city! Super fast, and absolutely cavernous storage since it used a Seagate 20MB ST-225N drive. After I got that thing, there were no more boxes of disks to sift through... it all went on the Lt. Kernal with barely a dent in the storage.

[@RogerEverett]

!!! There is so much coverage about Commodore, and it great, but I would really appreciate some videos about the original Atari 400/800's. I used to own a 400 and currently have an Atari 800 with the 810 drive, the 410 cassette recorder, the 850 IO module, etc. and would appreciate some love thrown this way. ;) thanks

[@KuraIthys]

The only 8 bit I've ever owned at a time when they were still vaguely relevant (1990 - when they were well on their way out) was an 800XL. I actually appreciate the design of this series of machines a lot more now than I did then. They can do some really crazy things if you push them. Though it probably doesn't help that at the time I had been told (And believed, stupidly) that the PAL versions of the Atari computers wouldn't work with PAL televisions, only special monitors. (ironically given the cabling I had this might 've technically been true.) As a result I spent my entire original time with these machines viewing it on a monochrome green display... Even though there was a television on the same desk that could have shown it in full colour. I don't have my old ones, but I do have a replacement since about 3 years back. Another 800XL, with a tape drive (XE era tape drive though) and a floppy drive that I never owned back in the day...

[@vwestlife]

David is a big Commodore guy, so he probably doesn't want to admit all the aspects in which the Atari 8-bit computers were equally as good as or even superior to the C64 despite being a much older design (1978 vs. 1982). :-)

[@gamedoutgamer]

@@vwestlife So true. A8 has many superior features indeed! While the 1541 was DD which was nice, at 3:02 I was face palming yet again at this C= design using 'bad lines'. I appreciate the honesty, knowledge, diagrams and historical context expressed in this video. =) I got an 810 drive a couple months ago and love it.

[@TheJeremyHolloway]

@@vwestlife yeah but any 8-bit Commodore fan who later became a rabid Amiga zealot has to give credit where credit is due since Jay Miner, Joe Decuir, and several others designed both the Atari 8-bits and the Amiga. A lot of Commodore's engineers went over to Jack Tramiel's TTL/Atari Corp after he left Commodore and they were responsible for designing the ST's hardware even though a lot of ex-Atari Inc programmers worked on the ST's OS and supporting software. Thus the Amiga is more of an Atari machine while the ST is a Commodore/Atari hybrid. There wasn't a pure "Commodore" successor to the C64/C128 line. Wah wah...

[@TheJeremyHolloway]

there's still a bunch of Atari 8-bit development going on. You can see a lot of it over at AtariAge proper or at the Atari Museum and Atari 8-bit groups on Facebook.

[@berczigabor]

The switch on the back of the MSD drive might be one that makes the drive ignore the write protection cutout and allow you to write on a non-cut disc anyway. At least that was a very popular mod on these drives. If the switch does that the wires from it usually go straight to the write protection sensor.

[@este4955]

Don't worry guys. Commodore History AMIGA part is comming very, very soon. From 5 to 10 years I think.

[@kwc0435]

Thankfully he made it a while back

[@lordzamasu6220]

​@@kwc0435 😢😂🎉😢😢😢😢🎉😢😢😢😢😢😢🎉is is is is

[@lordzamasu6220]

😢😢

[@rbrtck]

I own one of the 1541-compatible Blue Chip drives, and have been very happy with it for 35 years. The first model was an incompatible piece of junk that I quickly regretted buying, but when I sent it in for repairs within the first month, the company sent me a newer model, which is an enormous improvement in every way. It is virtually 100% 1541 compatible (haven't had any issues even with commercial software and alternative formats), has never gone out of alignment with heavy use, and has a handy-dandy green write indicator LED. I don't know if drives of this model were all this way, but I'm glad I had this one. I guess it was like getting a 1541-II years ahead of time.

[@madmax2069]

seeing the 1571 just brings back memories. the C64 was my first computer. it was given to me and the drive that came with it was the 1571 (or the 1541 II, i cant remember which one as i no longer have it)

[@lovemadeinjapan]

Nice to see that Apple back then was open, scored virtual 10's on iFixit repairability and did everything with easy to get components, and Commodore was the over-engineering locked-up source bitch with incredibly weird floppy drives, garbage output VIC chips and glued power bricks. So in 2024 our C64'/C128s are still a pain in the ass to maintain. Luckily my built-in-Germany 1570 holds up remarkably well, but man what an analog diarrhea comes out of the monitor ports on my C128.... Pain to watch.

[@fremandn]

After the end of each episode, I imagine The 8-Bit Guy walks back to a warehouse that has the Ark of The Covenant in it right next to the rest of his collection

[@EriolGaurhoth]

The entire story of Commodore can be summarized by "We made a better add-on that made your Commodore computer better, but because nobody upgraded, no software developers made anything that could make use of the add-on". It's funny to imagine a world like this when in our current world, AAA games will be released that only run well on the most primo PCs that 1% of the global install base have, but because the volume is still significantly large enough they can still make a profit.

[@RCAvhstape]

How I love the music on this channel. That outro is like an 80s time machine.

[@DancesWithRobots]

When I noticed how hot my early 1541 was getting, I put rubber feet on a 5" equipment fan and parked it permanently over the vent holes.

[@travisjohnson8146]

Wow. I did that exact thing.

[@hipwave]

when I built my c64 station I went straight for a couple of 1571 drives, never looked back after that. even with the slow speed they are immensely superior .- and GEOS lives better with larger disks.

[@artistwithouttalent]

19:15 Commodore users: Hey what are these aux ports here for? Indus: It's a surprise tool that will help us later

[@mattandsarahaschan]

Ah, I see another Mouskateer!

[@HelloKittyFanMan.]

Oh yeah, when our 1541 sadly died to the point of being "unrepairable" (I mean from before I grew up and bought my own), we (the family headed by my parents) bought a Blue Chip and then that Indus drive! The GT is pretty fascinating!

[@HelloKittyFanMan.]

Yeah, @Chef Mike Rowave, like the 9090. Not designed specifically for the 64, but more for the PET and then stayed compatible for the 20 and 64.

[@rbrtck]

I had and still have a Blue Chip drive (purchased from Best) that has been utterly reliable and extremely compatible with the 1541, albeit this is not true of the earliest models. It also has a green write indicator light, which I occasionally find informative. I considered the Indus GT because it was already legendary in its own time and looked so cool (and I really like the track indicator), but I don't think it is nearly as compatible as the Blue Chip. If it has a Z80 CPU instead of a 6502, then it really is much less compatible for sure. For those who primarily used pirated software, it was mostly fine, but a lot of commercial software with original disks would not work on it, and any titles that used their own fastloaders would either fail or have to turn off their fastloaders. If your experience has been different, then let me know. I still like the GT, and am thinking of buying one for my Atari 8-bits, since software compatibility does not appear to be an issue in that case.

[@carlstenger5893]

Once again, a splendid video! Prior to jumping ship to run IBM compatibles, I was heavily into the Commodore ecosystem. Somewhere in my garage, I have at least one Vic-20, 2 or 3 C64s, 1 Plus4, and at least 1 C128. One of these days (sooner rather than later) I need to locate those systems. Thanks a lot for your multi-part videos on the Commodore history. I've enjoyed watching each and every one. Incidentally, though I live in Albuquerque now, from about 1977 until 2002 I lived in the Fort Worth / Arlington / Mansfield / Kennedale area. I've traveled back to that area a few times over that last 18 years and I can't believe how much that area has grown.

[@BoshMind]

Ok this is odd, my 1541 drive has the vic style case plastic but has the c64 drive badge...

[@Tditty46]

Man your videos are one of the most relaxing and satisfying things in my life right now ! Well that and Weed. Keep up the great work !

[@ChristopherGaul]

Great installment in the series. Though I would have liked to have seen the SFD-1001 included. That drive was highly coveted by Commodore BBS operators.

[@isubsmith1]

Agreed; I had 2 of them and a 1581 on my BBS. I was actually surprised it wasn't discussed.

[@drewpt]

Came here looking for this. I also had a couple for my board.

[@bwc1976]

Yes I was waiting for that one! The first high density drive I ever heard of. Also there were one or more third party hard drives released such as the Lt. Kernal.

[@ChadQuick270W]

Those Commodore disk drives were slow as molasses running up hill, but they seemed like lightning compared to the cassette drives. My friend and I would take our 1541 disk drives with us when we went to each other’s home as it was so much faster to copy disks with two drives.

[@antiantiantiantiantiantian9766]

Great video! Brings back so much memories. BTW: last year, I was able to put a terabyte of storage into my old 1541II (converted it to a pi based NAS :) )

[@gilbert1975nf]

I am simply addicted to this channel... I just love this kind of old stuff computer, 'cause I grow up messing with 286, 386, 486, both amd and Intel as well... Well done with this channel! Keep it up!

[@willmatheson]

Coming soon: Commodore History Part 17 - Dust Covers I kid. Have enjoyed the whole series.

[@lochmarnegoat9812]

I think I would watch that.

[@awilliams1701]

don't worry part 18 will be the amiga! part 23: don't worry amiga is coming soon! lol

[@thegearknob7161]

I remember the Amiga 3000 we briefly had when I was a kid had a dust cover, so yeah i'd watch that too just to try and jog my memory.

[@brileyh]

I still have my original Naugahyde C64 dust covers! At extra cost of course. My PC keyboards just get a hand towel as a cover.

[@authorlilhyz7121]

No

[@warp9988]

I loved learning about the custom loadstar dual 3.5" drive. Looking forward to the Amiga episode. This is a really fantastic coverage of the topic and although I lived through and was aware of almost all of these being live products you could buy and which friends of mine owned, I never owned most of these drives. I did own a 1581 drive. I won it at a raffle at a commodore user group. Going back to the Commodore PET era's drives, I was given a Commodore PET 8032 and a dual IEEE 488 drive, and I actually did something that most people didn't ever do on a Commodore 64: I Tried to use an IEEE 488 interface to connect these PET drives to my C=64 to use as a BBS storage subsystem. I used a cartridge from a company based out of Canada called Batteries Included. I think it was called the BusCard or BusCard II, but I can't remember what it was called. I only found the name BusCard by googling. I do remember it was from batteries included and that it looked like this somewhat: mikenaberezny.com/hardware/c64-128/buscard-ii-ieee-488-interface/ I also owned the 80 column video card for Commodore 64 that was built by Batteries Included. The commodore product to interface commodore 64s to an IEEE488 was something I never saw ever in my life.

[@videooblivion]

Robert Russell designed high-speed data lines into the Commodore C64 using the MOS CIA in lieu of the defective PIA found in the VIC 20. That would’ve made disk access, when coupled with the new 1541, the fastest on the market at the time. But the production engineers cut those lines at the last minute without telling anybody. Read all about it in Brian Bagnall’s Commodore book series, volume I.

[@neophytealpha]

Shame. The potential was there. Commodore design was lightyears ahead of the competition

[@MMSZoli]

Sabotage!!!

[@LivingInAVan]

Very nice documentary and research. I actually learned quite a bit from this video. Awesome job!

[@RobA500]

Never thought a video about disk drives could be so interesting, great work.👍

[@DrTofu83]

My current driver is an RF521C, basically the BC 128 rebranded by AMTECH. I was really thrilled, after giving it its first major cleanup, to find MOS chips inside and an unlabeled EPROM, I guess for the reasons you told :) I cleaned it, slapped an adhesive over that EPROM because I'm a stickler for details (but lacking a label printer I could just get one of the same color, and back then I didn't know it should have had a ROM writing with a square around) and I was suprised with that. It fits nicely the body language of the 1571. The funny thing is that, according to the manual of my unit, it was sold along with the 501C and the 502C, that should have been clones of the 1541, but with the same case

[@TonyPadgett]

If my memory serves me correctly, I had a very critical issue with the 1571. When it started writing to the 2nd side, the head would reset frequently. I took it to a generic computer repair shop and they had not idea how to fix it.

[@piotrdubiel7214]

I remember having a 1571, and eventually adding a used 1541 as a second drive to it, but I also remember having a couple of SFD drives and running a little BBS off of those for a bit. They looked just like 1541s, but had a lot more capacity - with the pair of them, I had a whipping two megs online. They were pretty great for that, and I got them super cheap! Was hoping to see those mentioned, but otherwise it was a nice trip down memory lane and some interesting information I didn't know before - I had assumed the Indus was only on the Atari, for example.

[@DIYTechRepairs]

In beginning you talked about history about Amiga 500 as well. Do you still plan to release that and if so when? I highly appreciate your videos btw!!

[@95TurboSol]

I remember having the big and small floppy disks and using dos as a kid but I don't ever remember seeing a cassette tape used for loading programs, that's crazy!

[@Canyon76]

I love yours and 8 Bit Show and Tell's videos. I am a big fan of Commodore. I had 2 growing up and later got an SX-64. I did a lot of tinkering and copying of my own programs for friends. One of the things I did was add a chip to the 1541 and a speed controller. Could you go into some of the mods and accessories that were around at the time such as what I mentioned? Also it would be fun to see some of the interesting peripherals that came out for the C64 like joysticks, touch pads (Koala Pad) and even some strange and fun cartridge addons like BBUs and MIDI controllers.

[@deljohn]

Great video on the Commodore (and other) drives. I interned at Commodore in West Chester, PA from 1983 to 1984 and there were a few of the VIC 1540 drives laying around. Who knew they'd become collectors items... Also, I had a chuckle when you mentioned the MSD drive was popular at copy parties. We had a CBM 4040 drive hooked up to a PET computer on the floor that we used to copy C64 disks in a similar manner.

[@bwc1976]

Crazy how the old Commodore factory is now the QVC studios!

[@mxims97]

I've been watching his videos for 5 or 6 years now and I just realized that The 8-Bit Guy painted his room with the same 2 shades of blue as what are on the C64 display!

[@BillAnt]

Imagine covering your walls with a large C64 Basic screen wallpaper. ;D

[@dembalachannel]

One of your best ever videos. Amazing background info on these and details I love. I was a commodore 64 user in my childhood but wasn't even aware of any 3rd party disk drives existed at the time. Congratulations and thanks for the memories :)

[@Gencoil]

Ever notice there's a slight southern accent leaking out sometimes when he says "drive"? :)

[@robspiess]

He lives in Texas and has a texan accent. e.g. notice the emphasized "h" sound in wh-words, like "white" (hh-wite instead of wite).

[@thegardenofeatin5965]

He's Texan. He's allowed to drawl and/or twang.

[@CommodoreFan64]

You want some real southern accents come over the SC, GA, and NC. I'm from SC right on the GA border, and have family from NC, and as a kid even I could sometimes not understand 1/2 of what some of the really old timers where saying.

[@Iliek]

Dallas is not Texas. They're basically yanks.

[@robspiess]

Do you mention people in the UK having a British/Scottish/Irish/Welsh accent? "Ever notice his accent leaking out when saying 'herbs'? :)"

[@bigfairy321]

There's also the FD-148 drive, which seems to look like a Blue chip but with a different face. I have both but haven't opened up the blue chip drive yet to check. Judging by the external look I think that they may be the same internally. I used to own an FD-148 back in the day...

[@AmazingJeeves]

Glad to see 8-Bit Show and Tell in a collaboration with the 8-Bit Guy. I found his channel recently and enjoy it.

[@billkeithchannel]

Yeah the first video I seen of his talking hands was the Christian Album that had a hidden C64 program hidden in the runout groove. I remember seeing that album in the book store back in the late 80's but did not buy it.

[@Toxis374]

9:18 No. Even the most modern floppy disk drives don't have a sensor to detect the location of the R/W head. They have at most a sensor to detect the arrival of the head on cylinder 0. That's all they needed. When resetting a drive, the head was moved backward all the way until it reached cylinder 0. In operation, all you needed to know the location of the head was to count and remember the number of steps the head was moved forward and backward. The primitive floppy drive interfaces also don't expose a method to report the current location of the head. They only expose a method to detect the arrival on cylinder 0, move the head a step forward, and move the head a step backward. That's really all they can do with the R/W head.

[@richard1113]

Totally loved the appearance of the Indus GT! I had one of these for my Atari computers and loved it. Was way cooler than the Atari disk drives with its two digit display, and as I recall, faster as well.

[@timsmith2525]

Very thorough presentation. Thanks!

[@aphexteknol]

One thing I’ve always wondered about was why the model designation on the brown 1541 drives were written in a font that makes it look like “154I”. The second 1 is different than the leading 1 and looks a lot like an I or lowercase L or something. Always bothered my OCD since I was a kid...

[@bwc1976]

Same!

[@paulmichaelfreedman8334]

I still have TWO 1541s in a box in the attic, together with two c64s, a VIC-20, an Amiga 500 and a Mitsubishi ML-F48 MSX-1 computer. Thanks to channels like this I have ordered 5 liters of Peroxide, I am going to restore them all. No idea yet if they work or not, but I am going to recap everything first, it has all been powered off since the late 1990s, some even since the late 80s.

[@Thunk00]

How'd the restorations go?

[@paulmichaelfreedman8334]

@@Thunk00 To be honest things have not gone according to plan. All the parts are still in a box. My hope is to do it next year, so check back in in 12 months lol

[@cometobrazil9916]

How Many Disk Drives do You Have? 8-Bit Guy: *Yes*

[@Akira625]

I never even owned a Commodore computer back in the 80’s, but I still find this series quite fascinating. I was a fan of the Commodore 64 and its capabilities.

[@Novous]

6:30 GCR code also provides redundancy / error correction of one bit.

[@GruntUltra]

I remember that there were always advertisements for the Rear Admiral Thunderdrive - a hard drive that was supposed to be compatible with the C64. It had tons of storage (compared to a 5.25") but they were crazy expensive too. I'd like to know how useful those were, but it seems like a modern SD2IEC will forever be the best method now.

[@kirbyyasha]

Hmm, I always thought my 1541 Disk Drive did do the head bang when first powered on. I notice if I power it off mid-read, then it would make less of a bang.

[@IDPhotoMan]

Some do, some don't. i have one that does it every time, and others that never do.

[@chriswathen9612]

Mine only head bangs when formatting, or when power cycling a C128 with no disk in the drive.

[@IDPhotoMan]

@@chriswathen9612 only one of mine does it. It is sitting in front of me, I just turned it on, and it spins, bangs, then stops. It works great. It's a 1541C model

[@BartoszPe]

Hey David, This video is pure gold and one of the best you've made. I've been listening carefully to the highly interesting tech stuff but unintentionally i focused on something else. I was always amazed how much attention did Atari and Commodore devoted to the visual aspect of their product lines. After this footage I'm even more astonished. Could you possibly focus on this topic in one of your future videos? I would love to see those XL/XE as much as C64/C64C wide product lines matching each other visually. Thanks in advance!

[@pokemonfreaks9724]

Man this Channel has more Education than scool

[@Procket12]

Nice putting in footage from Project: Firestart AKA probably the first Survival Horror game. I found out about it a few years back and I have to say, it is absolutely phenomenal, especially being what it is. A C64 game in 1989, when Commodore's own Amiga was already out in addition to all the IBM-PC Compatibles. It's a great example of doing more with less.

[@stefanwacht4670]

Guide value for my 8 year old me, when swapping games at the school-yard : 110-170 blocks - decent game. 171-220 blocks - potentially a graphical masterpiece. :D

[@johnandrews2167]

I also have a 1581 drive as well as a 1541II. Didn't know the 1581 was so sought after. I back up so much data on the 1581. Sweet drive indeed.

[@MD-vk3bj]

The 1541C stands for "Cream" That is a totally unfounded claim for anyone thinking I am like a Commodore designer or anything

[@Iliek]

It stands for Coom

[@Ribby00]

@@Iliek I'm cooooooooooming

[@CoyoteSeven]

In the white room with black curtains near the station...

[@Alltagsabenteuer]

Darn, I had a C16 with floppy and a colour printer, and I gave it all away a long time ago. Thanks for all your super interesting videos!