Common Tai Chi Mistakes: Misunderstanding Sinking the Shoulders

[@AndoMierzwa]

Hello, sir! I just found your channel and wanted to let you know I love what you're sharing and how you're sharing it. Keep up the great work!👍

[@DarsanaMartialArts]

Hello, @AndoMierzwa. Thank you so much for appreciating my work and for your kind words. I came across one of your videos some time ago. I really appreciate the way you present without ego - clear, knowledgeable, and making space for different perspectives. I'll head back to your channel soon and check out some more of your content. Regards, Grant

[@AndoMierzwa]

@@DarsanaMartialArts Very kind of you, sir! I hope our paths will cross again.👊🙏

[@beenright5115]

​@@AndoMierzwaA crossover video would be awesome to see, from a fan of both channels 😄

[@AndoMierzwa]

@@beenright5115 Kind of you to say! If I get out to the other coast, I'll harass Sifu with a call. :)

[@DarsanaMartialArts]

Thank you both! That would be fun and an honor.

[@dominiclloyd6651]

I've just stated tree pose, so I've found this great explanation at the perfect time. Thank you.

[@DarsanaMartialArts]

Hello @dominiclloyd6651. Thank you for appreciating my work. I'm glad you found it useful and timely. Good luck with your practice.

[@earlstanley8942]

This instruction was very informative. The adaptation of the body from a hard style martial art and transitioning in Tai Chi is very challenging because of the muscle memory that’s in the subconscious from years of training in the hard style. Your instruction made sense of if very well.

[@DarsanaMartialArts]

Hello again, @ealsanley8942. I'm glad you found it helpful. I agree. Transitioning from hard and external styles to Tai Chi can be quite challenging. Several of my students come from karate backgrounds. Apart from having different approaches to posture, movement, power generation, and methods for conditioning the body, many concepts and techniques from the different arts can seem the same on the surface, and the temptation to draw upon familiar and well-worn knowledge and skills is difficult to deny. It's tough enough to open one's body. Opening one's mind can be even tougher. Starting from scratch (at least to some degree) takes no small amount of humility, patience, and an almost child-like curiosity. Anyone undertaking such a journey should take pride in doing so and have compassion for themselves throughout the process.

[@sineatermaster]

Room for discussion here: I teach students that pulling the shoulders back by the rhomboids isn't correct and the reason I offer is rhomboids are fast twitch muscles, not designed for long holding tasks, which is why we fail in trying to use them to correct posture. Instead, to use the lower lats (superman flex muscles ) under the shoulder, arm and shoulder blades to engage. This pulls the shoulders back at a more relaxed 45deg correcting posture and once trained will never forget. I bring this up because I believe how we use the lats also play a huge role in force transfer and the roundness of the body. In Zhan zhuang, I teach to push up with the lats to hold the arms instead of flexing the traps. Because the lats are big moving muscles they can sustain the posture without even realizing it. But the lats are fascially connected with the hip, knee, ankle ,foot, ground...allowing the kinetic linkage to go from the ground to connect directly with shoulder and elbow and so on. Now I say all of that bc I feel this video presents the perfect opportunity to ask about your thoughts on this and if you see things differently. I joined your private group last week but I thought this would also be a good discussion for the public as it offers opportunity to understand more deeply your video lesson but also why your videos are valuable.

[@DarsanaMartialArts]

Hello again, @sineatermaster. Thank you for sharing your approach, for supporting my work, and for creating an opportunity to share this discussion with the community. First, let me say that your approach seems well educated and well thought out, and any differences in my own approach mentioned are not meant to diminish your work in any way. I will approach this topic from the perspective of Standing Wuji or Zhan Zhuang practice, though the concepts apply to any static or moving practices in our Tai Chi system. First, a quick, general note on correcting posture: everyone comes to this practice with different postural imbalances, which may require a focus on specific exercises to stretch and strengthen certain areas before, or alongside, more general tai chi practice. It does seem that our approaches diverge right at the start, at least based on what you shared. I do not teach in terms of using any specific muscles. Instead, I focus first on arranging the general position of the skeletal structure. This will provide the upward extension of "ground force" from the feet to the head needed to support the deep release of tension. Then, I shift focus to what the student is feeling in terms of "gravity force." I begin by directing students to "ungrip" their muscles from the bones (song). The focus is on feeling where they are blocking gravity's downward pull in their bodies, to disolve those blockages, and direct the force of gravity to the ground through the release of tension in the soft tissues and openning of the joints. While there is a lot of detail and refinement to the above process, that's the gist of how I teach alignment and sinking (the conducting of force to the ground). We use an acupuncture point body-map (about 18 points) to indicate key areas of the body during this process in our system. I will sometimes reference specific anatomy, but it's usually more for the students to be able to visualize how the movement of forces in their bodies shifts and changes the joints and soft tissues. In the past, I spent a fair bit of time and effort studying and applying anatomy, kinesiology, and biomechanics to my tai chi practice. What I personally found over the course of my career, both as a student and a teacher, is that focusing on using particular muscles to do certain things causes the mind to grasp for too much control. We end up dictating to our body, rather than listening to what is happening within it. Focusing on internal feelings and qualities, I have found, puts the mind into a role of partnership with the natural forces at work on and in the body. In this way, I feel the mind enters into a more balanced relationship to the body - a harmony of attention and intention. To me, this is an aspect of practicing wei wu wei (doing without doing/non-striving/without contrivance) in tai chi practice. I hope I addressed what you intended me to. If there is something you feel I missed, please let me know. If you'd like to discuss this in more detail, feel free to contact me directly. Thanks again. Regards, Grant

[@sineatermaster]

Shifu, thank you for such a valuable explanation. I believe I understand your video even better now, hearing how you systematically teach to let go of the muscle. We learn so much from your videos but having the opportunity to have you respond to our thoughts and questions only adds to the depth of what we learn. In that regard, I eventually teach a students progression in a similar fashion. My method is to give them key areas such as the lower lats and the sacrum area for tension to hold posture. I ask the students to focus only tension in those two areas, as an example (some students may need more areas if they lack the ability to connect feeling in the body with physical perception). Since I deal with many students who have the inability to visualize something in their mind and connecting it (levels of spectrum), I give them focus points and help them release/forget the other areas. Once they get this they are asked to release control of one focus point at a time until the mind and body are hovering in Wei wu Wei. I bring this up again because I'd like your perspective on this next part. I describe their muscular grip as a yang energy the mind is manifesting, and releasing that grip is manifesting a yin energy. I describe the physical presence of the body as yang but by releasing the muscles the mind/intention Yi is the yin. So by existing in Wei Wu Wei, our mind songs to become yin as our physical presence of body becomes the yang. Yang will always seek out yang ....but when yang tries to control yin, the yin cannot be touched or affected by the yang. But yin has a complete control over the yang. Clearly I've thrown more than one subject of conversation. But there isn't a lot of these discussions open to the public. And for the record, I believe shifu Grant to be the most effective and practical Taichi teachers I've found to date. I'm putting my own thoughts of my interpretation in writing bc I want correction. Many write their own methods bc they believe they know more or they like to hear themselves talk, well, proverbially speaking. In pursuit not to dominate more of your time, this will be my last public comment on this video, but I would love to ask for you to reply with your thoughts so more people can read and understand more about the nature of Taichi and especially of the Taoist practices of Wei Wu Wei. Xie Xie ni!

[@johnpark6184]

I’ve been cheating for years and my front deltoid hurts. Good explanation.

[@DarsanaMartialArts]

Thank you, @sineatermaster, for your considered comment and kind words. First, let me say that I don't imagine myself in a position to correct anyone's approach to tai chi. I merely offer my thoughts and experience in the hopes that they may be of use to others on the path. Second, forgive me for the length of this reply. Though I strive for brevity, it seems to evade me when replying to thoughtful comments such as this one, as I wish to answer in kind. Also, I wanted to address a few of the things you said individually... You said: "Once they get this [the use of specific muscular contraction to correct the alignment of certain postural elements, along with release of tension in all other areas] they are asked to release control of one focus point at a time until the mind and body are hovering in Wei wu Wei." My thoughts: I think your approach is a fine means of postural correction. Skeletal alignment is a necessary prerequisite for gravity's pull to move through the soft tissues and joints in the desired way for body development. For most individuals, achieving that initial alignment will require the activation of certain muscle groups. Which ones will depend on the particular postural imbalances the individual student needs to correct. Since muscular imbalances are at least somewhat unique to each case, but good skeletal alignment is essentially universal, I initially focus on moving the skeleton toward good alignment in standing postures. My theory is that this will gradually strengthen and stretch the muscles and connective tissues in the precise way needed to move the skeletal structure into the desired posture. My experience generally seems to confirm this. Various stretching and contracting exercises can (and often should) also be employed to help this process along. You said: "I describe their muscle grip as yang energy the mind is manifesting, and releasing that grip is manifesting a yin energy. I describe the physical presence of the body as yang, but by releasing the muscles the mind/intention Yi is the yin. ... our mind songs to become yin as our physical presence of body becomes the yang." My thoughts: While there are systems which ascribe the quality of yin or yang to the various components that make up our bodies, minds, and world (and learning them can be interesting and informative - Chen Xin refers to such distinctions in his book), to me, yin and yang describe the relationship between things within particular contexts. This means what is yin in one instance may be yang in another and vice versa. In regards to the grip and release of muscular tension, I would agree that gripping with the muscles can be characterized as yang in relation to the release of that muscular gripping. That said, we may manifest a powerful force through ungripped muscles, which may be described as a yang expression, while the sinking of force to the ground through the same ungripped muscles may be described as yin, though the muscles are "ungripped" in both instances. So, what is yin, and what is yang can be seen as contextual. In regard to the mind and body distinction, if I understand you correctly, it seems you are saying that the action of song as an intention (yi) ascribes a yin role to the mind, while the physical structures of the body (what I take as your meaning of "physical presence"), being somewhat solid matter, are ascribed a yang role. I suppose that is a fine way to look at it. You might also say that the mind, as the source of intention and leader of action, plays a yang role, while the body, as the receiver and vehicle of action, plays a yin role. To me, what is most useful in considering things in terms of yin and yang is to have a sense of their respective characters. Whether considering substances, actions, intentions, interactions, emotions, etc, all can be seen as either in a yin role or a yang role based on the circumstances and context of the situation. Simply seeing through the "tai chi lens" of yin-yang interaction is an excellent tool for practice and contemplation and can yield numerous perspectives. You said: "Yang will always seek out yang... but when yang tries to control yin, the yin can not be touched or effected by the yang. But yin has a complete control over the yang." My thoughts: I'm not sure I correctly understand what you mean by this in relation to what you said above. If I were to interpret your meaning in a way that suits my own frame of understanding, I would approach it in terms of force between push-hands partners or opponents... I take, "Yang will always seek out yang," to mean that a force will seek something solid and resistant to connect to. In such a case, the superior force will win. I take, "when yang tries to control yin, the yin can not be touched or effected by yang," to mean that, as a yin body offers no resistance, a yang force finds nothing to connect to. I take, "But yin has a complete control over yang," to mean that, the emptiness of a body in a yin state (by which I mean yielding/sinking) absorbs/draws in the yang force, "capturing" it, and therefore gains control over it. If I've interpreted your statement correctly, I would say that I tend to agree with it. As for the subject of Wei Wu Wei, I will just say here that we should remain on guard against the temptation to dictate much of what we do. Employing ting (listening) and attending deeply inward so that we may align our intentions with the currents of natural forces will lead us more directly toward our aims than any methods we devise. This, of course, is the challenge and constant pursuit of the practice. Thank you once again, @sineatermaster, for providing an opportunity for me to share my thoughts. Regards.

[@sineatermaster]

@@DarsanaMartialArts I will keep my promise and not turn the comments on this video as a complete forum, but for the sake of closure, your explanations and interpretations are spot on. You perfectly understood my ranting. And yes, the yang seeking yin commentary refers mostly with push hands. Which I use this all the time as I'm one of the only Taichi combat jujitsu players in my communities. Jiu Jitsu players feel they are doing a gentle art until they go against a push hands master. But this discussion has been so healthy for me to hear and has given me some meat to chew thru for a while. You are truly a gracious and well spoken sifu with exceptional skill. All of us who teach have a deep desire to find a teacher who helps us experience being a student. It ignites a fire of excitement and sparks exploration of our art. Thank you again for your time. I look forward to interacting more on your own platform. And to all who stumble upon this comment section, talking back and forth ...truly listening without the arrogance of putting down the ideas of others...this is where transmission of knowledge and even heritage is created and cultivated.

[@mhm2908]

This is very interesting but does seem to contract my Chen style tai chi master who is world renownd. Perhaps I have misunderstood, but he does instruct a rounded back, sometimes such that the T-shirt worn can be seen to be stretched across the back - so that the power can come through the back.

[@DarsanaMartialArts]

Hello, @mhm2908. Thank you for your comment. To "round the back" is a classic instruction. I don't mean to imply that it's wrong - just commonly misunderstood - in my opinion. What I'm speaking to in this video is the common mistake of focusing on making a rounded external shape as opposed to opening the back, shoulders, and chest internally. The two may even look similar externally, but internally they feel quite different, are generated through different actions, and produce different results. When we suspend the crown, sink the shoulders and elbows, empty the chest, and open the back (both vertically and horizontally) there is a feeling of the back "filling out" or "rounding," and the chest "sinking in." There is change to the shape of the body, too, it just isn't primary and not always so externally pronounced. In certain postures and movements, the back will feel quite stretched and the chest will appear quite "hollowed" in a somewhat concave fashion - particularly in push postures, or any in which both hands are extending force in front of the body or inward toward the midline. This can certainly stretch a t-shirt across the back. The issue I hoped to convey through this video is that students often copy the external shape, but misunderstand why it is happening (from the inside out) and so overdo the shape and actually misalign themselves and create tension and "holding" in their body that is counterproductive. I personally did, and it took me a while before I understood my mistake. My goal is to shift focus from external shape to the feeling and directing of forces through the body. I believe that doing so yields a truer alignment that is verified by the practitioner's own sense of inner force and motion pathways, which will refine over time, whereas external shape-making becomes a kind of stagnant, imposed intention (lacking in ting/internal attention). This way, the practice is more a vehicle of discovery than a performance of procedure. Though I do not know who your teacher is, it sounds like he is telling you the right things, and I don't necessarily think what we are saying need contrast or contradict. Correct instructions can be misunderstood, however, so my intention here is to offer my own experience and insights into this aspect of the practice. I hope it helps. Regards, Grant

[@minh-manlavigne7041]

Everything is in the alignment of the body. I teach relax and broaden your shoulder.Rather than pulling the shoulders back, allow them to broaden outward. First, relax them as much as you can and let them sink with gravity. Then gently try to get broader, from your spine and your sternum to the tips of your shoulders, follow the natural curves of your body.