Comparing Crystal 40°L and 60°L - Malt Flavor Experiments

This week, we explore the flavor differences between crystal 40°L and crystal 60°L.
This is something Mike has always wanted to do but until recently was unsure the best way to approach it. Now that Mike is working on brewing 2 gallon "half-batches" with BIAB, executing some of these malt comparisons is a little easier.
We expected much more out of this experiment. Classically, we expected the C40 beer to have some notes of light sugar and maybe honey, while we also expected the C60 beer to be more caramel in flavor. Neither beer really lived up to those expectations. The easiest way to tell them apart was by color, but the flavor differences was subtle.
Check out the video for more ramblings on Crystal 40°L vs. Crystal 60°L malt.
Tell us about your malt flavor experiences in the comments!
Cheers!
#crystalmalt #maltcomparison #40vs60
Check out our blog:
www.brew-dudes.com

[@cheekysaver]

I am new to brewing beer... I research first. I can't help it... that is just how I am. This vid is SO informative!!! Thank you! I appreciate the work you guys put into this.

[@BrewDudes]

Thank you!

[@chrisz8532]

Gday Brew Dudes, how’re ya goin?. I’ve gone back to just making the beer I like, which is a simple Australian Pale ale. Pale Ale malt, light crystal and some flaked wheat. Hops are Pride of Ringwood 20g at 60 and 10g Victoria Secret at 10.. Thanks again for making these videos🇦🇺👍

[@BrewDudes]

Old school is sometimes just the type of beer you need. Thanks for the support! Cheers! -Mike

[@madaxe79]

Can’t go wrong with pride of ringwood up front hey... i make almost the exact same recipe but i substitute the late addition with something like williamette, amarillo, or nelson sauvin. Sometimes galaxy or cascade

[@MegaStamandster]

Holy crap!! Was just talking about this with a friend! Thanks guys!

[@BrewDudes]

I hope you shared the video and told them to subscribe! Shameless on my part. CHEERS! -Mike

[@MegaStamandster]

@@BrewDudes sure did!

[@jamesroyds5069]

Not a stupid vid. Great stuff. Lots of people just getting into Homebrewing seem to be taking it way too seriously. Its great to see these smash experiments, Malt experiments etc. Please keep it up and brew on. Thank you

[@BrewDudes]

Cheers! Thanks for the support! -Mike

[@rickostrander6711]

Great idea guys, thank you for the experiment! I use Crystal a lot and always wondered how much difference there is between 40 & 60.

[@BrewDudes]

Coll. Hopefully, I do some more combos of Crystals in the near future. -Mike

[@GarySylvester]

I really enjoyed this experiment! It's the kind of thing that teaches so much without me having to spend that amount of time DOING it. You guys are great. Please keep experimenting!

[@BrewDudes]

Glad we can help. Its good for us too. Cheers! -Mike

[@andrewlutton4684]

Great video. Would love to see the smash beers comparing the various base malts.

[@BrewDudes]

Oh its coming! Probably the most desired one I've been wanting to do for years. Cheers! -Mike

[@WreckedBrewery]

I love these experiments. Very informative! Cheers guys!

[@BrewDudes]

Thanks for the dedicated viewership! Cheers! -Mike

[@tylerwilson4951]

Just got a baby 1gal fermenter. I'm super excited to get some experiments going. I was thinking hops for my first experiment but maybe I'll play with some malts instead. Cheers!

[@BrewDudes]

Sounds good. Let us know what you try in the future! Cheers! -Mike

[@Jonobos]

YES, my dudes! I have been waiting for your malt experiments! Strong work, keep going!

[@BrewDudes]

More to come! Cheers! -Mike

[@user-qx5se7hj2x]

Cool experiment thanks guys

[@ThePr8head]

Cheers Brew Dudes!!!

[@BrewDudes]

Back at you! Cheers! -Mike

[@gerardblais7312]

Great video guys. Love to see experiments. I do use crystal malts as well. This is great info.

[@BrewDudes]

Thanks for watching! Cheers! -Mike

[@brianbarker2670]

Informative video , thanks. Would like to see more on other malts. Also would be interested on your views on using acidulated malt to adjust mash ph.

[@BrewDudes]

More malts are in the works. I like the predictability I get out of using acid when I set up the mash. I have used acid malt and I think it works just fine, but with pure acid I don't have to alter the recipe any. That's my take. Cheers! -Mike

[@damdog11]

Great video again guy’s would be great to keep some bottles of this to compare with the darker crystals when you get to them

[@BrewDudes]

Thanks for the support. Working on the time for the next round. Cheers! -Mike

[@thomashood3748]

Interesting. Good experiment

[@BrewDudes]

Thank you! Cheers! -Mike

[@homebrewbrazilhb6501]

Cheers...great and nice work...quite a revealling video. Keep up .

[@BrewDudes]

Thanks for the support! Cheers! -Mike

[@tylerb6081]

Awesome topic. I'm a C40 fan myself, but just bought a few pounds of C30 as a test to see if there is much difference. One thing I've read is that C60 is more susceptible to oxydation. Would be interesting to age the C60 beer and see if you get any worse oxidation related flavours over the C40. Would also be interesting to do Biscuit vs. Victory vs. Honey Malt.

[@BrewDudes]

Those are interesting thoughts but really hard to control for. For the oxygenation testing you'd have to account for potential bottle to bottle differences. Confidence in the results would require more 'n' than we have here I think. I agree on the biscuit vs victory, but I think Honey malt is something totally different than those two. Cheers! -Mike

[@jeffbrislane5782]

For me i feel like crystal malt has a grainy sweetness if that makes sense, i notice that in a lot of IPAs with crystal where they really load it up

[@BrewDudes]

It does make sense. It's definitely not sweetness in the traditional sense (like in desserts). - John

[@cain1s]

I love this channel. Thanks, Lads.

[@BrewDudes]

Thank you, Cain! - John

[@peterolsson8857]

Really interesting!

[@BrewDudes]

Lagging behind on a follow up to this experiment, but there will be more malt work coming. Cheers! -Mike

[@dkpynn]

Great experiment! Love it!

[@BrewDudes]

Thank you, Dennis! - John

[@echardcore]

I feel like a lot of guidance on grain bill percentages steers one away from quantities of a pound or more on some specialty malts (in 5 gal. batches). I've made beers with a pound of black malt or pound of smoked malt where I thought it it was just right. Yet most would steer away from those quantities of malts like that. TLDR; I'd probably do this with more C malt. Those beers look delicious tho.

[@BrewDudes]

AGREED. On line chatter is pretty interesting on its asserted "wisdom, rules and advice". I gave up on all that as a guide when I started to realize that many of the national gold medal beers from the annual NHC in the States often broke those "rules". The AHA publishes all the winning recipes in Zymurgy for people that don't know. And lots of those winning beers have interesting approaches. Thanks for the comment! CHEERS! -Mike

[@paddymeboy7741]

@@BrewDudes I actually won 1st place in the Iron Hill homebrew comp with a 2.5% abv historic porter with over a lb. of black malt (+12%) . General wisdom says this beer should taste like ashtray. Welp! LOL. Too bad my Pro-Am brew is sitting in a tank waiting to get the virus.

[@BrewDudes]

Excellent. And that proves the point... you just don't know unless you try it. Awesome! Cheers! -Mike

[@sidewinderdrums]

Thanks for doing a grain / malt test - this is an area I would like to learn about. I am curious why they ended up at the same / similar gravity. I always thought that was the reason to use crystal was to retain unfermented sugars - sweeter beer.

[@BrewDudes]

Good question - the differences were subtle. The body of each beer was different but slightly and not detectable with a hydrometer. - John

[@ninamattmiller2023]

My big grain question right now is about adjuncts: how different are flaked barley, flaked wheat, flaked oats, and flaked rye? Does one give better head retention, mouthfeel, flavor contribution? (My brewing is on hold for practical reasons so I can't experiment myself... but I can play with recipes. I can also watch your videos to supplement my lack of brewing :) )

[@BrewDudes]

Ha - well, now I have something to add to the list. Thank you and keep watching. - John

20 and 50 are what I used to use. I think that I prefer less of cara 50 to get to the same color. But lately, I just use Munich and Vienna for more mouthfeel. And a bit of cara120 or toasted wheat 70 for color.

[@BrewDudes]

Thanks! Appreciate the info. Toasted wheat!

[@cheekysaver]

BTW... I would have LOVED to see you mix some of those beers just to see what happens. Hahaha. You never know right?

[@BrewDudes]

It would have been tasty. - John

[@oldschoolman1444]

One thing I like to do is take about 1/2 a teaspoon of whatever grain I'm going to use and chew it up to see what kind of flavor it has.

[@BrewDudes]

Nice - we do that too. Thanks for the comment - John

[@MegaStamandster]

2g Batches, .25oz Warrior @ 60m (14.5%-18% Alpha), mash temp 149f (about) Batch 1 - 100% 2-Row Batch 2 - 93% 2-Row, 7% Crystal 40l Batch 3 - 93% 2-Row, 7% Crystal 60l --> less mash efficiency, possibly higher pH A larger percentage of the Crystal may increase the differences? Is that accurate?

[@BrewDudes]

Correct. If there was more Crystal malt the pH effect would be greater. I have not documented that that was the case though. -Mike

[@cmasailor]

Thank you for this, my local b&m doesnt have c40, or c60, I ended up using a sprinkling of c80 instead of the full amt of c60 i was supposed to use, and have been wondering how far off I was, based on this video I bet I was close enough to where I should've been. C80 is darker and more carmelized, and I knew that, but you always wonder without doing these tests yourself.

[@BrewDudes]

In the end the choice to use crystal malts, or any ingredient, comes down to the final beer and if you liked it. I don't want anyone to walk away from one of these experiments thinking "OH, those guys said!" We just provide this as a guide and entertainment. The musings of two dudes and what they experience may be different than others. CHEERS! -Mike

[@GentleGiantFan]

Man...you guys can't tell the difference between 40L and 60L??? Morons!!!! No, seriously...great video. I've done a couple of beers where I had to sub one of those grains for the other and walked away surprised the taste differences were closer than expected. Put me down as one that wants to see a comparison of all the crystal malt variations. At the very least, I'd add 80L to the panel. Thanks guys! Cheers!

[@BrewDudes]

I've got a handful of things happening in the small fermentors right now but I'll hopefully get around to 80L and 120L soon. Cheers! -Mike

[@fdk7014]

Another experiment, if you want: mashing for 1 hours vs mashing for 2. I've started mashing for 2 hours and I feel I get higher efficiency with it and I like to think that I get somewhat better attenuation

[@BrewDudes]

Interesting, because I have been mashing for 40 minutes lately and I am still getting 75+% efficiency. Maybe something I'd look into if time allows... No pun intended there. Cheers! -Mike

[@anthonyhernandez7694]

I really like this video. I would like to know your thoughts about blending a couple of caramel/crystal malts in the same recipe? I have several recipes with two different caramel/crystal malts and I wonder if I eliminate one how much of a difference it would make.

[@BrewDudes]

I'm still trying to parse out what was going on here. Simply put blending different crystals would give different flavors not attainable using one solo. Experimentation is the only way to figure it out. Cheers! -Mike

[@playingwithdata]

I generally have crystal 60L, 120L and I guess what you might call a 170L (Sold as Red Crystal 340 EBC here) on hand. Like yourselves I found little reason to have 40L around alongside 60L. I've tried 80L and it was different to 60L and 120L but, again, not enough difference to justify having it on hand as well. I hope you do get around to running the isolated tests on these darker crystals. I'll be interested to see if the differences I think I detect are noticeable under those conditions.

[@BrewDudes]

Cool man. Cheers! -Mike

[@MicroSessionsBrewing]

I go even lower with Crystal 20 ... interesting how finely different they are.

[@BrewDudes]

Nice - yes, quite subtle. - John

[@ejcandrin]

I'd expect more difference between maltsters, e.g. German Caramunich v British Crystal v American Crystal. Better control would have been Pale + Carapils, which is effectively C-2, no? To your point on mouthfeel.

[@BrewDudes]

Agreed on maltsers likely having noticeable differences. However for this experiment it reflects what someone sees at their shop for ingredient options. I know out LHBS really only has one maltster choice when it comes to crystals. Maybe two sometimes. I don't think controlling for mouthfeel in the base would have changes the flavor perceptions and second I have no idea how to actually predict how much carapils is equivalent to the mouth feel of some amount of C40/60. I don't think its an easy prediction to make. Cheers! -Mike

[@3rwparks3]

Great Idea! When I first started brewing and wine making I purchased a lot of one gallon equipment (big mouth bubblers and secondaries). They have been collecting dust for years. It would be fun and eye opening to do my own experimenting. with a SMASH plus additions. Now for a tech question. High temp hose ($$) when do you feel the need to replace it for bacteria reasons? Have you ever tried to boil them to sanitize ? I think that they are rated for 250 degrees F.

[@BrewDudes]

I don't see the need. On my system I am running 100% silicon hoses with stainless steel disconnects. At the end of a session I am running PBW solution through the hoses as part of my pump cleaning routine. I have only seen some growth in a hose once and I tossed it out. In racking tubing its impossible to get that clean again so I don't really bother. Lastly, the high temp hoses tend to get sanitized by heat if being used on the hot side. I suppose you could boil them, but like I said I have never seen or had an issue. Cheers! -Mike

[@3rwparks3]

@@BrewDudes Hi Mike, My concern was a scratch or crack inside the silicon hose where it would be possible for a bacteria to propagate. If it happened unnoticed, it hurts to dump many hours of work down the drain. I too use silicon hose with stainless fittings. It is scary to think about contamination..

[@cmasailor]

Genus brewing recently said that they dont use any of the Crystal malts on purpose and prefer the other special malts to grab more "interesting" profiles, but I bet it has more to do with personal preferences and how many feel the Crystal's have been overplayed in the past... and that bothers them more, leading them to the opinion or the belief that profile of the beer is somehow of less quality with the inclusion of the crystals.

[@MegaStamandster]

So a little bit of information on Crystal malt is important, from BYO "... the grains are steeped and germinated... crystal malts are then stewed - they are heated in a closed system that doesn’t allow moisture to escape. As a result, the starch interiors of the barley grains are broken into sugars by amylase enzymes in the barley. After stewing, the grains are kilned. Kilning dries the grain, darkens the husk and caramelizes some of the sugar inside." Regarding another specialty grain, such as Victory/Biscuit BeerAndBrewing Mag states it "... is produced when germinated, kiln-dried barley is then roasted at high temperature but for a relatively short roasting time, resulting in a color of about 30° Lovibond/SRM. The high temperature applied to the malt at low moisture content, also known as dry roasting, develops the unique toasted, warm bread, biscuit, and especially nutty flavors and aromas characteristic of this malt type and the beers in which it is used..." So, main difference between the two? One is essentially mashed and then kilned dried at a certain temperatures. The other is only kiln dried at a certain temperatures. Because of this, sugars within the Crystal/Caramel malts are locked in to produce a maillard reaction of the sugars during kilning, similar to making caramel from sugar. This provides a unique flavor profile that may possibly be capable of being replicated by using straight caramel, at different stages (hard, soft, etc). But, that's theorizing and you may loose some subtle difference in the flavor without the additional malt depending on amounts. Plus, straight sugar may react differently with the yeast and gravity. Looks like there's about 34-36 PPG potential in all of the Crystal malts.

[@BrewDudes]

Thanks Chris!

[@BrewDudes]

Thank you for the comment!

[@jeffbrislane5782]

Some people have said its better to add a little bit of 80 instead of a lot of 40. What do you think?

[@MegaStamandster]

Depends on the flavor profile your looking for. A lot of Crystal 40 is not the same as a little Crystal 80. Each has it's own flavor, though, at high percentages become more pronounced. You'll likely not notice 1% of either other than color. But, 15% of each will make things very different.

[@BrewDudes]

I don't know who some people are. But if I want a peanut butter sandwich for lunch that what I have. I don't have almond butter because some people said it's better. I'm being a bit wanky there and its not aimed at you. I say try it the way you want it now, then next time try it with C80. See if you can tell the difference. You don't even have to be analytical about it, you just need to see if you like one over the other. I encourage everyone to experiment with all theses things. I have never found I make the perfect beer for me when I just follow common wisdom of everyone else. You got to experience it for yourself. Cheers! -Mike

[@julianstanbury620]

Great info. I've split 1 wort into 6 demijohns and yeasted with 6 different dry yeasts. The differences were noticeable. From start to completion of ferm, to colour and flavour (flavour diff apparent after 1 year too). Would you consider splitting 1 wort and adding steeped crystal grains to each? Removing the base malt as variable.

[@BrewDudes]

I thought about doing this as a steep step with one big wort. Doing it this way was a to practice my BIAB technique. Future experiments won't be as easy for steeping so I figured I might as well keep honing the BIAB technique, its not that much more work honestly compared to one big base mash. Heating smaller volumes is just so much quicker. With two pots I can stagger one after another over two burners and go pretty quick. Thanks for the thoughts! Cheers! -Mike

[@julianstanbury620]

@@BrewDudes Thank you. The only other advantage is by dividing one wort you minimise the singular beers to drink through. Anyhow, you know what you want, and I love the info. Top stuff.

[@BrewDudes]

Cheers! -Mike

[@wouldbebrewmaster6218]

The descriptors for hops don’t even come from flavor. Usually the descriptors come from rubs. The hop grower or broker rubs the hop cone and notes the aromas they get.

[@BrewDudes]

True. That's why we have been doing all our SMASH brewing comps and this video too. Its so we can get some descriptors in our own words, that make sense to what we are directly tasting. Sometimes we agree with the marketed claims. Sometimes not. Cheers! -Mike

[@thaifoodtakeaway]

I cannot stop seen the water leak in the top right corner.

[@BrewDudes]

Its been bugging me too but I'm not heading out for more tiles anytime soon. Cheers! -Mike

[@staresuppe]

did you mash the crystal malts or did you add them at mashout?

[@BrewDudes]

Mashed them. Cheers! -Mike

[@staresuppe]

@@BrewDudes As i understand it; crystal malts should be used in Lawdering after mashout so the B/A-amalyse is denatured. to increas FG