Confronting Pastors: How To Confront Toxic Leaders, Toxic Pastors, and Spiritual Abuse: Part Three

[@geoffstokes]

I have found leaving has always been the only way in the end

[@FRemyD]

Agree. I think people waste time thinking they can change things. A toxic culture is too strong to change without all the leadership resigning.

[@rlolo777]

Thank you for these videos. We've been wrestling with leaving vs. confronting and waiting out because we see our leaving as REALLY sad. We love the people. He is the one tearing us away from our church family. I would never want to be the one in the way tearing people away from the people they love, tearing down a church. But his legalism is too important to him. His views are right. Unless God works in his heart and shows him the error of his views, he won't change and the church will continue to be led astray; which is why we feel led to say something. It's just that one meeting isn't going to break down all the legalistic issues and eisegesis that is going on.

[@FRemyD]

You are right, one meeting won't solve it all... maybe makes things worse as he counter attacks. That's a call you have to make, whether to confront or not. Just be aware that confronting may not solve anything other than giving you a clean conscience that you said something. That's a good thing. Thanks for your comment!

[@veritaslux644]

You don’t have to confront on everything at once. Find one doctrine he is clearly in transgression about, that he is also, most likely to easily see the truth about. And since he is a pastor, maybe bring someone else, who also sees this error (preferably another spiritually strong man, especially since you are a woman), and with your bible, you (or you two) can come to him alone and point to the scriptures your seeing that he is transgressing, and humbly lovingly, ask the Pastor, in a question, something like, “Pastor ___, doesn’t the scriptures say_____?”, And maybe add, “aren’t you saying _____ ,which, according to these scriptures, isn’t this the accurate interpretation of Gods word?” And he may see the truth and confess and repent! Then do the same for the other errors you are seeing (but use discernment and maybe don’t bring too many things up at one time, but give him time to contemplate and make it easy for him to repent, of one, or two doctrinal errors, before bringing others up, so Pastor can save face and not feel like a fool, for making these errors! The goal is to restore the Pastor to Christ (to the truth)! Be polite and humble no matter how he reacts. Remember this is only the first part of Mathew 18 steps of winning a person over to Christ! If you can’t persuade the transgressor over to the truth, then find one or two other like minded spiritually discerning loving people to come with you (or you two), in private again. If the Pastor refuses to repent then he is claiming that all of you are wrong and he is following Gods word, in which case he and other leaders of the church are supposed bring this matter before the entire Church! He should want to if he believes he is correct! But if your pastor is prideful and knows he is wrong, but doesn’t want to repent (usually for fear of loosing money or power), then he may gaslight and sabotage you by recruiting others to silence you or falsely accuse you! If you are clearly correct and have witnesses then pastor may be forced to see the truth and humble himself, then most likely the pastor will repent before this is brought before the church, and to prevent himself from being embarrassed. But be prepared that he may slander and recruit others to his side (Satan’s side), and abuse you by proxy, and prevent you from bringing this before the entire church or anyone else, so as to silence you (really silencing Gods words 🥺)! If this does go before the entire church, this would be great, because then you can speak the truth before the entire congregation, but most likely you will be xcommunicated before this happens. Also be prepared that the “church” may be too afraid to not side with Pastor because they fear man instead of God! But no matter what happens, you will have glorified God for following His word. Remember the disciples were stoned and jailed for things like this, and you don’t have to worry about that! You will probably win many others over to Christ as they see you speak the truth in love or see the Pastor humble himself! You will be building treasures in heaven, and probably receive blessings while still here in earth, for doing what is right. Don’t fear the pastor, because if he is following Christ, he will humble himself, and repent, but if he won’t then that means he is putting himself in place of God and if Church leaders or congregation won’t lovingly follow the scriptures required when there is conflict within the church, then Christ is not the head of that Church and it ceases to be a Church, if it ever was one! A group of people with one leader who isn’t Christ, is not a church, it is a cult!

[@rlolo777]

@@veritaslux644 thank you so much for your great advice!

[@rlolo777]

@@FRemyD Thank you. I appreciate your attention. I really feel so sad about leaving, but I fear that is the only thing we can do because I don't see the Pastor changing his views. He has been so indoctrinated. But I think we owe it to him to at least explain why and leave him with a warning of where he is leading the church.

[@scottweathersby6659]

Doesn't this go for tithing and the holidays

[@monvici]

By staying you will destroy your own soul.

[@FRemyD]

Yes. Staying is often the wrong move.

[@prophetic4923]

This is a concise video and hits the nail on the head. Walking in my calling, I have learned that spiritual toxicity is a "fact" of life in the ministry. I have experienced dealing with spiritual abuse and toxic scenarios in church/organization. And the situations and random signs are on repeat for example: the toxic leader(s) are carnal; has an evil eye; have monitoring spies; threatened by the call and spirituality of an authentic and gifted believer; the toxic leader doesn't fear of the Lord; is a Jezebelic dominated ; lust filled (sexually/ seeks more power); entitled; commits passive aggressive harassment ; gathers /preys on the insecure/weak; maintains a cowardice circle of toxic loyalty; self-deceived; dominated by Jezebel and its bewitched puppets that places the toxic leader on a pedestal! Ask God for His Wisdom and timing to overcome your toxic situation. God will either intervene ( Ez 34:1-10) / cause you to overcome it / release you from the midst of the toxicity ---to move forward! Blessings! ✝

[@FRemyD]

Thanks for your comment. It's sad that spiritual abuse is a "fact of life."

[@1920darcy]

Thank you, this series was really helpful, albeit too late. But it's good confirmation that I did the right thing. In the end, I believe it was a blessing because I learned who my real church community was and became closer in my faith, which I had to rely on to get me through the gaslighting, blaming, lies, and accusations of being un-Christian because I dared call out the leaders.

[@FRemyD]

It sounds like you handled it well and were able to maintain your faith. Good to hear. Thanks for commenting.

[@EcclesiaToday]

Amen, thanks brother for the spiritual insight and wisdom in humbleness.

[@AnnieGrace777]

It never works with narcissists. NEVER!

[@FRemyD]

True. That's when you just need to leave.

[@JKBelle]

Yup! It took us 7 years to finally realize I was dealing with a narcissist pastor and we finally got out! I’m so upset I wasted so many years and was gaslighted over and over again. He even kept us from moving for bigger opportunities for our family and kept us down under his thumb, even to our financial detriment. The lights finally came on when he admitted non-chalantly that he never supports ANYONE in leaving no matter their situation even though he would say to the congregation he did to save face in front of everyone.

[@beardedbdub426]

I’ve watched this series because we have an issue at our church. I’m outside of the main “complaint group” and I’ve worked with the pastor many times before. Leaving sounds like the opposite of the Biblical teachings. I’d like the two sides to reconcile. The narcissist is in the “complaint group” and if the pastor were to use these techniques towards the lay leaders, then it only codifies the sentiment that the “complaint group” has against the pastor. Following these principles seems to only lead to separation. That sounds satanic. 😢

[@Micah7-8]

Brother, I was in a small bible study home group and what happened there was more than I care to relive. I met the Lord 41 years ago. Really way too much to share, but my confrontation was very legitimate and sincere starting out until this woman felt as though she could raise her voice at me, try casting a demon out and then bringing false accusation of me before the rest of the group and accusing me of operating out of a spirit of witchcraft. WORSE yet, I thought she was my close friend :-( NEVER in my walk have I come across such betrayal and accusations. I already had a past that was filled with trauma from two murders and my parents who were involved with the occult. NOW, I have been so distraught over this, now way to reconcile, no way to resolve it and I'm looking for someone to assist me with this mess. UNBELIEVANBLE how God's own people are causing so much harm to each other.

[@FRemyD]

I'm sorry to hear this Micah. We seek to know God and we get all this mess. It's not right. I offer coaching to help people sort it all out on my website at readingremy.com. Thanks for commenting. I hope you find your way through this.

[@juneevans4394]

I'm so sorry you experienced this, that person was preying on your vulnerability because of your past trauma, what a terrible thing to do someone. The Lord is actually angered by those who add pain to someone who has already experienced pain. Get away, get help and heal, and pray for them, I wouldn't want to be in their shoes

[@Micah7-8]

@@juneevans4394 thank you for your kind words. And yes I had to leave the group of people I thought I knew and thought I loved. What’s sad is they sided with this woman and not one reached out to hear my side. Attempts were made to speak until she wanted me to come and talk in front of them all. In the end the Father told me not to. Learning much about narcissistic behavior in what I saw and experienced. And you are very correct on, not wanting to be in her shoes. I’m not the only one she’s damaged, there were others as well. May the Lord have mercy on her soul 😔

[@Micah7-8]

@@FRemyD thank you for responding. Unfortunately I’m not in a place financially to be able to do this right now. Prayers are what’s getting me through. While it’s been something I would wish on no one; the pain and heartache with each trigger I experience yet is what I’m facing now. Thank you again!

[@geoffstokes]

I really feel for you. Unfortunately, it's more common than realise. You need to trust Jesus and follow what He impresses on your heart. In order to protect yourself, if nobody is listening, you need to get out and wait for the Lord to find healthy fellowship for you somewhere else. I have been through a lot of rubbish with churches and I'm not averse to just walking away if it's toxic. Your own spiritual health comes first in the end

[@geoffstokes]

Denominations do tend to back their own or, as I experienced, go to the 'cop out' option of saying "its a local church discipline issue,"

[@FRemyD]

Been there, like "states rights" vs. a federal mandate. The denomination says they don't have the right to interfere.

[@aramisy.cajigas744]

If this confrontation gives you emotional toil, it's better to just leave.

[@FRemyD]

I agree. It's not worth the pain/effort/drama. Thanks.

[@TorrinCooper]

Great teachings brother!

[@FRemyD]

Thanks for watching!

[@makejesusfamousministries]

I wish there was an organization that looks to confront these “leaders.” It isn’t right how in the corporate world if I’m not doing my job well I get fired. While in the church toxic “pastors,” continue to lead in a place that’s damaging the flock and its community for decades. Why do we wait until a “pastor,” hits the news on CNN of a major scandal or issue that hasn’t been addressed? We have to do better 😢. I’m walking through some traumatic issues now with a “pastor,” that is still pastoring and I’m not the only one he has hurt. I’m bold enough and not afraid to address him which I have but only have been given advice to leave it alone. I hate it. The injustice makes me upset.

[@FRemyD]

I hear you. That's why I write and make these videos. Denomination leaders are supposed to play a role in stopping toxic leaders, but they often don't, or the pastor simply goes to another church or starts their own. I'm glad you have the courage to confront, but it is disheartening.

[@makejesusfamousministries]

@@FRemyD appreciate the feedback I recently shared this video. I hope more people get the help and information before picking a “local church.”

[@karenmendes5867]

How would you suggest dealing with the situation where you turn to the church for help with a bad marriage. Things become unsafe so you leave and you’re open and honest about leaving your pastor actually calls the police for you when he hears what happens and he agrees separation is the only option. Then he turns on you and pressures you to return and implies there will be church discipline if you don’t in other words he wants you to return to a situation that was so toxic he himself called the police

[@FRemyD]

I'm sorry to hear about your situation. I don't like to offer recommendations when I know so little about what's going on. But just going by the little you've told me, I'd say that both the marriage and church sound unsafe and not someplace that I'd want to be. I hope you can find your way through this season. Maybe there are friends, family or a safehouse that you can go to right now?

[@karenmendes5867]

@@FRemyD oh yes don’t worry I’ve flown across the country and am staying with family. I’m quite safe.

[@bazzadebear8012]

Babylon type church, just walk away.

[@JRMaranatha2024]

Church leaders preach against "church hoppers" so people are afraid to leave. I believe most true Christians would only consider leaving for egregious reasons because first we are bound by love. Leaving is sometimes like a divorce, which we wouldn't do for less than egregious reasons either.

[@FRemyD]

Sadly, spiritual abuse is one of those reasons. Too often, people stay out of fear and guilt and cause themselves, and their loved ones, harm.

[@theheartmatters-m8l]

How can one leave when your husband is one of the Pastor in Church 😢

[@FRemyD]

Oh... that's so sad. I'm sorry to hear this. Well, it requires some hard conversations. Maybe read my book, Broken Trust, together to see if he can relate to it.

[@susandumbill8805]

With all due respect, this does not always work, and you're left with only one option - leaving. Plus, there seem to be very few people willing to take these steps and face a toxic pastor with you. Again - the only option left seems to be to leave. So much is happening which shouldn't be. It's so stressful to cope with, even years later. Years ago a senior pastor crotch-grabbed right in front of me, then after a while started touching me inappropriately, even in front of others in such a way that an undiscerning onlooker might think he was just being 'loving', as he sensually massaged my lower inner arm. I spoke to several people in the church about his crotch-grabbing, but no one gave me any support; they just stayed silent - and stayed with him. Well, Ihe didn't get any thing else from mme. I did eventually leave, but the church I went to gave me no support either. No apology from the man concerned. It appears to me that predators are protected and victims either ignored or worse. But at least the police listened.

[@FRemyD]

I realize that confronting abusive church leadership often doesn't work. I offered this advice for the rare person who feels called to do it. Leaving is typically the best option.

[@susandumbill8805]

Thank you for that. I did try to confront a senior pastor, in a respectful, rational, calm way, I really did. But he just turned against me, then influenced two other leaders there the same way. Then they tried to influence someone else, in a senior leadership position in the 'main' church elsewhere in the country. He didn't seem to treat me any differently though, which was a positive point. I've come to the conclusion, over the years, that some leaders just aren't open to an opinion different to their own, and sometimes use somewhat draconian measures to keep the flock 'in line'. It's a pattern which seems to repeat, again and again, and I can't see much hope of change. But at least I tried. By the way, the above-mentioned pastor was, seven years later, suspended from that role for a year due to concerns about him having an inappropriate friendship with a single woman in the church (he's married). He never resumed that role afterwards, so far as I know. So, he wasn't 'above correction ' after all...in some respects. I hope I can help others, but few people are able to take radical action, such as leaving a church. I can't talk openly now, as people get scared, then avoid me. I'm extremely isolated, but you can get accustomed to even that. I firmly believe you're better off alone and even really lonely, rather than being spiritually tied to people like that. There's the added benefit that none of them know my business any more, and therefore can't meddle, or pray against me. If I ever sense that I seem to be better equipped to deal with it.

[@lastthingsministry]

No one should be praying against you. We are not allowed to use imprecatory prayer in this age of grace. We are supposed to be forgiving one another and being of one mind. It sounds as though Satan is devouring the church now through the wolves he has planted throughout. Stand firm in your faith, the Lord will carry you through.

[@Unknown2Yoo]

If we leave, where do we go? I go to a house church. At first, it was great because it was more than "a sermon and a lecture" and we could be edified by other believers and practice our gifts. But as I've grown in the Lord, and grown closer to doctrinal truth, our 'facilitator' remains stuck in what he's been saying and believing for years and when confronted about a clear misinterpretation of Scripture he totally missed the point. I'm largely no longer edified there and if I have a problem I now know my emotions are not safe in any discussion resolve it. However, there's no other place I know of where I can go. That's the number one reason I'm there because I don't want to be disobedient in gathering with other believers. I'll continue to pray, but this is a season of uncertainty for me.

[@FRemyD]

In my book, and other videos, I talk about how it's necessary at times to leave church if its toxic. Take time away to detox and reset. The book of Hebrews warns backsliders to not forsake gathering together, but it doesn't sound like that's your problem. It sounds like you want to draw close to God, you just don't think your church is healthy. Remember that Abraham didn't have a church or a Bible, yet God led him to the Promised Land and called him the Father of the Faith. God can lead you too to a new church. You don't have to fear that you are letting God down. He might have a great church waiting for you.

[@Unknown2Yoo]

@@FRemyD Thank you, that is very encouraging.

[@susandumbill8805]

Hi, I'm sure the Lord Jesus will guide you. I left a church 2 years ago, and am visiting others at the moment. One is very sound, but I'm very careful and wary now, having had some rather serious situations to deal with. I sometimes feel as if some of these leaders drive some of us away, but if that's the case they will incur judgement for that. Jesus doesn't do that. To think of the extreme distress some of the people have caused me, where I have been genuinely traumatized, I'm pretty sure some it has been illegal. Be very careful who you trust. My first church was a christian Fellowship, and some there did me a great deal of damage.

[@Unknown2Yoo]

@@susandumbill8805 I'm trusting the Lord will guide us, definitely.

[@lastthingsministry]

The Lord will guide you both through. I am going through a crisis at the moment as I have discovered my pastor is involved in idolatry through a fraternal organisation. I am about to confront him and possibly face disfellowship with one of the few believers I know of. He has also stopped me from knowing others in the ministry and only encouraged fellowship amongst people who are bullying others. It is so lonely and frightening this trial but I do believe the Lord will get us through. Like this gentleman said, Abraham only had God to turn to. So many other believers have gone through a very lonely time surrounded by persecution. Take comfort from those great believers in the Bible such as Abraham, Joseph, David, Moses, Elijah, Jeremiah... Even our Lord was abandoned when He was arrested and then Peter denied Him three times. Our Lord knows what we are going through and will be with us every step through this.. use this season to grow closer and closer to the Lord so that when we go through the Tribulation, we will have the strength of faith to overcome. Do not be afraid, the Lord is with you and is shepherding you through this time of testing, through the fiery furnace so that you will bring forth gold at the other side.