Controllers vs Fight Sticks in SSB Melee | MoistCr1tikal

[@ssjmura1654]

If you want to know what it's like playing Melee on someone else's controller, imagine rubbing your hands in pancake syrup then trying to play a game.

[@Infoagemage]

Why is this so true 😂

[@miirico5398]

This applies to every controller tbh. If you played many games or used that controller for a long ass time you feel like its a part of your or some shit. Feels like its been ingrained to you that if you borrow or buy a new controller it feels weird to use.

[@danielnanninga]

​@@miirico5398that applies for all game and graphics and sound and hotkey settings

[@danielnanninga]

​@@miirico5398you spend a few thousand hours doing things with certain clicks being in certain spots looking a certain way certain timings

[@danielnanninga]

​@@miirico5398and when it wears down and gets glitchy or sticky or loose or keys stick you get used to that also the feel of it and size and weight

[@fetchyryu]

Its amazing how out of the loop ludwig is after not competing for just a couple years. Like everything he said was either technically correct but meaningless or just wrong

[@mlalbaitero]

There's people who r pretty good and actively play and also know nothing, there's lots of misinformation

[@mlalbaitero]

He's a puff player

[@equinox3861]

I learned cheater gccs have potentiometers in them.

[@NightGhost1400]

@@equinox3861 all Gccs have potentiometers in them

[@namufoxy]

@@NightGhost1400 I believe phob does not? Since not having them is kinda the whole point

[@n0lain]

"They got potentiometers in that shit..." 😂 bro

[@Somethingnsomethingelse]

Yep 💀

[@bigdoggo5827]

Dude has no idea the every controller except hall effect ones have potentiometers

[@hatenaw]

Situation summed up as briefly as I could: Alot of mechanics in Melee rely on analog inputs (thousands of possible values), to the extent that things like character movement speed in some cases are more optimal the faster you can move the stick. Manufacturing and aging inconsistencies in controllers have made some more optimal than others since the game reads those controllers as moving the stick within 1 frame instead of 2, which can speed up actions and be detrimental in certain specific competitive situations. Since this gave way for a "good controller hunt"-phase, alot of game-side mods have been proposed and used over the years to fix these issues. Custom controllers and controller-hardware mods also exist to make controllers behave in this specific way, or make them more consitent. Box/leverless controllers only use buttons istead of analog sticks and are inherently more consitent in getting specific analog values as fast as the player wants them. Both of these could give a signifigant competitive edge theoretically, and the debate remains controversial since the community wants to the game to be as inclusive as can be, while also having a even playing field.

[@ClassicBentobox]

I love when Charlie talks about Melee

[@damiancarr168]

For those saying "just force everyone to use a normal GC controller" the problem is more then that in melee It's an arguement of a fair and level playing field. Because controllers vary so wildly one player can have a unfair advantage against another even using a stock controller. And it's not just easier or harder, a lot of controllers **cannot** do these things, it's mechanically impossible. So "pros" end up spending hundreds or thousands of dollars buying up all the OLD GC controllers trying to find a good one to have this unfair advantage. So players are getting P2W'd by these controllers because the tech is game changing. It's the difference between marth grabbing you at 50 and doing a extra 20% and him grabbing you at 50 and killing you off pivot tippper fsmash. I don't think any other fighting game(that I'm aware of) is having these issues. Especially because Nintendo changed the way they make controllers in a bad way. The new controllers are even more inconsistent and are still worse then the old ones. So the price to pay and compete in melee just keeps rising every year as more and more of these controllers are bought up, horded, and then eventually broken reducing supply. It's really not as simple as everyone thinks and the problem goes very very deep. I've only scratched the surface of a single issue with letting things stand as they are and everyone using "normal" controllers. KZbin comment section is too short and I'd end up writing a book that many others have written better.

[@saleenf5]

This, the conversation is way deeper than it seems at a glance. If it were possible to just force everyone to use an unmodded GC controller it would have been done long ago. The only real solution that I can possible see would be some large company making a 3rd party controller for GC aimed towards melee and then being able to sell it at a very large volume on something like amazon with very high quality control, which probably wont happen as they would all need to be near perfect.

[@KaioKenneth4]

Galaxy brain 🧠 thanks for spelling it out. I often feel like issues like this get described very briefly because people assume that we know what they’re talking about

[@Killopotamus]

@@saleenf5 like the Panda GCC?

[@davedanger4414]

I think the phob controller with hall effects sensors kind of mitigate most of the issues. They're relatively affordable, don't use potentiometers and are pretty easily available. I, personally, think boxes, firefox notches, wavedash notches, shield drop notches, Z jump, mouse click buttons are all cheating. You're literally adding cheat codes to do inputs easier on a game where "tech skill" is paramount. I really have no idea how pros decided to allow notches, but they're so common that you HAVE to use them at a high level. I really see no argument for them. It's 100% cheating.

[@kirb709]

Don't care. Using Keybox Arcade for gaming

[@JJtoob]

Potentometers are used in your average controller joysticks, so it's not that crazy of tech, if anything, I'm not sure if it's a quality thing, but it's been known to get stick drift from the metal contacts getting worn out/corroded/dirty, so people are switching to hall effect controllers. Wonder if any of those fighting box controllers have that sort of joystick. Speaking of hall effect controllers, I recently got one, and another cool thing I discovered is that it uses mechanical switches for the XYAB buttons instead of the elastic membranes most button use, which can fail when it tears.

[@bignerd1323]

Traditional arcade sticks are digital, not analog. So they don't need potentiometers. They basically have 4 switches that are activated at a certain distance from the neutral position.

[@GrimDim]

I honestly hate potentometers so much, let's revert back for the love of god. Drift is a big reason within itself. A modern controller lasts me 6 months max while my Gamecube Controller, 64 controller, and retro controllers I got from yard sales work so well. Hell, even Xbox 360 controllers I get second hand work for years before failing. I hate how some things are designed to just rot so you can consume more of the product, unbelievable how dirty corporatism has brought us.

[@tsrenis]

​@@GrimDimyou do know the GameCube uses potentiometers, right? basically every modern controller with an analog stick does, with the exception of the dreamcast and the n64 (which has its own problems)

[@lewdacario]

Please do more of these bro I love stuff about smash come up with like a moist combo

[@volvulusx5043]

Controllers in smash, especially melee, is definitely a rough topic. On one hand you have the issue of the finite supply of "good" controllers (ones that can perform certain inputs more reliably) and on the other hand, how do you properly regulate what is possible on a box controller? And for that matter, even a standard gamecube controller? At your local tournament you don't know if the guy next to you shelled out 200 bucks to get his controller working much better than an average one, etc...

[@Aresftfun]

So what, online tournaments are better bc you dont have to fly across the country to make every one? Disabled people be punished for just standing out when capitalism is going to affect things regardless

[@leonro]

​@@Aresftfun Sorry, but that's a big L take. Tournaments don't have to be accessible for disabled people. Competitions determine who has the best overall package to perform, and being disabled inherently stops them from reaching that level. I generally can't play games that well because I don't have good mind-fingers coordination. I'm not disabled or anything, but I will never win a Smash tournament. Let's put it another way. I'd like to compete in basketball, but I'm too short for it, at 169cm. Should there be a

[@purpsheik2975]

​@@leonro i don't understand your point are you saying screw disabled people or something lol? Does that mean in your opinion hax should just stop playing because his thumb is dehabilitating? And there is 5'5 people in the NBA fyi the shortest nba player was 5'3. You're not too short you just tell yourself that.

[@leonro]

@@purpsheik2975 Those are some exceptions, and besides the point. The idea is that not everyone is built to compete. Nowhere did I say that disabled people shouldn't compete if they can, but if their disability stops them from performing well when using the classic ruleset, then the rules shouldn't be changed for them. Being able to win a competition is not a human right. In short, if you want to compete in something but the rules put you at a disadvantage, suck it up. Competitions work by having viewership, and people don't want to watch a tournament with complicated rules that allow for broader participation. You can still play sports or games with friends, and you might beat them even with a disability if you work hard.

[@purpsheik2975]

@@leonro so in your opinion hax and everyone on box should switch back to gc controller? I was more so trying to understand your stance on the subject rather than the anecdotal stuff. Also regarding your argument for classic rulesets where exactly is the line drawn for those with a game like melee which has had consistent changes to the competitive scene over the games lifespan? Some of the ruleset changes including freezing one of the stages and modding in a universal controller buff to make dashback easier. I don't understand why moving in the same direction the game has been moving is so bad other than it threatens the top players seniority status or whatever from playing the game for 10+ years.

[@Streggae9961]

A meaningful poignant conversation happening as a backdrop to competitive Smash Bros competition...feels like I'm watching a Tik Tok video.

[@keystep8669]

South Park subtitles in foreign languages with shitty mobile game footage below it Actual brainrot

[@Ghoats]

@@keystep8669 and i love it

[@jigstraw2809]

2:19 All* controllers have potentiometers. They're what makes analog sticks and triggers work. for the trigger, it's just a 0-100 reading of how much you pressed it. For analog sticks, it's a two way graph ranging from -100 to 100 with neutral at zero. The thing is, potentiometers can be misaligned or wear out or have poor construction that only lets them reach 98 out of 100 and stuff like that, or they don't return to true zero which is where stick drift comes from on joycons, for example. cheap small potentiometers that wear out fast. *some controllers, such as the sega dreamcast controller, use magnetic sensors instead of analog levers for their potentiometers. I think guitars also use potentiometers of a different kind in the volume/tone knobs, so it's not exactly new or advanced technology.

[@Astar72439]

for me, its a accessibility issue. many boxx players today physically cant use a GC controller anymore, this game can literally shred the tendons in your hands on GCc. Also boxx isnt dominating tournaments either, and it takes a ridiculous amount of practice to actually use them. a lot of discourse about these things comes from a a lot of disinformation and lack of understanding

[@callanharvey6264]

I love how nobody in this video knows what the fuck they are talking about🤣

[@Killopotamus]

I’ve played on GCC for 10 years, and I don’t think it’s wise to take an issue caused by poorly made controllers, and force that upon everyone. If controllers have the default stick box instead of something like a magnet-based phob, then it is not only degrading with every use but it may not even be aligned correctly (down might not be straight down but slightly angled, changing your main stick + c stick inputs) I’ve switched to boxx due to hand/wrist issues, and if it needs to be nerfed (mind you the b0xx in particular has had multiple nerfs implemented, that is not true for all rectangle-style controllers) then so be it. We just want to play the game we love.

[@mrfahrenheit6114]

That’s what I’m saying as well, like it’s not even an accessibility problem. A good Gamecube Controller will cost you just as much as a rectangle.

[@JumbaJumby]

Although it creates an arms race, tbh I'm for Boxx controllers. GC controllers just fall apart so easily. It's so frustrating to question your own tech skill mid tourney only to realize yet another controller is going bad in a new way.

[@LeonardoGPN]

As an electrical engineer I can say that not having to deal with the size and weight restrictions of a controller allows you to improve playability considerably.

[@SAWS1234]

2:20 is the reason why most people in this debate should not be so vocal (edit cause I sounded like a douche) to put it simply the potentiometer is a controller is just the stick resitor and the phob (which is just a pcb that has general controller fixes like stick drift and snap back - NOT CLOSE TO CHEATING) doesnt have it because it uses magnets so there is no hardware rubbing together over time which creates stick drift. Its a fix to controllers not even in the realm of a mod.

[@jackcampbell2021]

It is slightly, with the added benefit of having no deadzones you will have higher fine precision

[@jackcampbell2021]

It is slightly, with the added benefit of having no deadzones you will have higher fine precision

[@damiancarr168]

It's absolutely modding because you're using hardware that didn't even exist when the controller was made. Yes its just fixing consistency issues but this isn't just something you can buy at Walmart. These controllers don't cost hundreds of dollars in labor for just doing nothing. It's a uneven playing field to people playing the game vanilla

[@SAWS1234]

@@jackcampbell2021 i mean you could say the same for button mapping too its still not better than having a separate button to do one precise movement like that.

[@mlalbaitero]

​@@damiancarr168 no one plays non ucf

[@Skapes11238]

Even coming from a casual perspective, i struggle to play on a different controller. The muscle memory of your fingers is insane after grinding out the game for a while. The small chage impacts every move you make. B0xx should be legal, but standardized asap.

[@TheBear2001]

A potentiometer is basically the thing that most people screw up in a controller that causes stick drift, so when you have stick drift it’s because you damaged that component goin a lil too hard in the cod matches lmao

[@Aresftfun]

should keyboard be nerfed on slippi? lol

[@RobertAntonyJameson]

They already spend 250+ on calibrateds gcc with notches and stuff. If a rectangle performs even better, they should buy those instead… Buying & mastering better tools might as well be a part of their job.

[@bignerd1323]

Another big thing is that a rectangle controller is a one time purchase, whereas all these juiced up OEMs and goomwaves still need you to replace/maintain parts semi-regularly. I bought a generation 1 Frame1 light for ~$150 bucks about two years ago and haven't needed to pay for any maintenance since.

[@cinnamonoa]

A hitbox style controller is insanely powerful, but normal arcade sticks are perfectly fine, they're just a lot more comfortable.

[@TaskMasterMLG]

brother they're talking about melee. So it's box style controllers vs gamecube

[@ryanguerrero2327]

If you tried playing melee with a normal fight stick you’d probably blow out your wrists real fast.

[@tubesism]

@@ryanguerrero2327 the arcade stick would break first. Also you’d have to bolt the thing down or it would fly off your lap.

[@RTU130]

Ye

[@rafaelbordoni516]

@@ryanguerrero2327 A normal fightstick don't have the analog inputs, it's either at neutral position or all the way to the max if you map the lever to the left thumbstick. That means every input will be a smash input and the game would be almost unplayable.

[@SomeoneWitSkill]

I honestly don't care if the boxx is OP or not. I just want a controller that just works the way it should. I don't need anything special, but sadly that doesn't exist.

[@kakuzu12345]

The issue with standardization is that: A) OEM electronics, shells, buttons, and especially potentiometers (A manually adjustable variable resistor that is used on the Y axis and the X axis to interpret movement inputs) are ridiculously uncommon to find, let alone in good condition. B) Not all controllers are built equally. Some controllers have bad snapback, some have horrible zeroing on the X and Y axis (Which is why notches were invented, to make inputs consistent if your controller had a really shitty angle due to the silicon lottery). C) Inside OEM peripherals there's also tiers. Tier 1 controllers are generally the worst of the best, they're leaps ahead of 3rd party controllers (Chinese knockoffs made with cheap parts) but the T1 stickboxes wear out insanely fast. You can tell you have a T1 controller if the stamp on the back of the C stick just says "Made in china". T2 controllers were the best of the original releases, still used metal stick boxes but were a lot more durable under strain. And the motherboard also covered the back traces in a nice layer of paint; and updated the C sticks molex connector. T2 controllers are denoted by the CE logo on the stamp. T3 controllers (Sm4sh and later) use highly reliable stickboxes made of plastic, but stay tight for a long time under stress and wear compared to the others, they also use inferior rubber pads for their buttons that take more direct and uniform force to actuation compared to the two tier rubber pads the old controller uses. These controllers have a little dot stamped on their logo. So realistically speaking, an ideal controller would use a t3 motherboard and stick boxes, a t2 C stick molex connector, and t1 or t2 button pads. Oh did I mention we can also shorten the springs in the triggers to make actuating an L cancel take a fraction of the normal force? Or solder capacitors onto the Y and X axis potentiometers so they don't register false inputs due to elastic snapback? Long story short, standardization of gamecube controllers themselves is already ridiculously inconsistent or unattainable even before we get into Boxes and PHOBs. PHOBs are custom mobos that use transistors/chips instead of potiometers, and are able to be calibrated to perfect zeros along the axis with internal software built into the board. Using this logic you could deduce that if you have a PHOB, you don't need notches. And you'd be correct. But most high end personal retailers of GCCs (Rienne for example), have perfected the art of notching to ludicrous levels, and can sell a single faceplate (Not even a full shell) for $130USD. And her job is made even easier since PHOBs are everywhere nowadays, she doesn't need to break out the smashscope on a homebrewed Wii just to do her job anymore. Notches serve as a convenient way to have consistent angles of wavedashes, shield drops, and foxfires, despite the inconsistencies of gamecube controllers. If you mix a PHOB and notches, with enough practice you'll have the most insane consistency and muscle memory imaginable. Now, boxes (as a controversy) are mostly due to their digital inputs vs time ratio. It's a lot easier to have ridiculous SDI if you can input all 4-5 of your actions inside a fraction of a second, which just isn't as easy to achieve on a thumbstick if you consider the inconsistencies we've talked about above, and the physical travel time the stick has to have. You also eliminate any worry of snapback or a missed input.

[@YogurtGaming69]

Melee has been play to win with controllers since day 1. Was described as the controller lottery before UCF due to shield drop values being literally dependent on how the shell is shaped.

[@CocoMura]

leffen is the distillation of thirsting for top tier.

[@KittieSE123]

as a melee rep i will allow b0xx's to be called fightsticks only bc this is bringing awareness to the masses

[@Nusutto]

Hit box is already a topic in the fgc

[@noravalio]

I wasn't even really listening to the conversation I was more interested in watching Leffen get Bodied

[@ThePi314Man]

Box should be the standard, but it needs a stick to capture the nuances of micro spacing and precision movements.

[@yesitsdauzie]

i think its so cool that i'm seeing a sheik getting notable placements. well done, jmook

[@mpdrago1730]

2 sheik majors after like 15 years

[@ToonGohan]

What the song playing at the end

[@12stormy13]

Potentiometer is not "a whole bunch of nerdy tech" lmao. It's literally one of the most basic circuit components there is. It's used in volume knobs and dimmers and such. I would be shocked if there are potentiometers in a controller as they are only useful for dials.

[@tokobot]

the analogue sticks actually do use potentiometers

[@tubesism]

Basically stock gamecube controllers are inconsistent pieces of trash and melee requires needless precision and consistency that stock controllers can’t achieve. I have had multiple experiences as a tournament goer where I could not get the hang of a certain technique, but then tried it on a friend’s controller and it worked every time. Some people destroyed their hands playing this game, so they invented box style controllers. This is good, but they’re also wildly more consistent than gcc’s, which created controversy. Now we have Phobs and other tech that allow gcc’s to achieve the consistency we desire, but they’re expensive so people cry cheater. An fgc fight stick is also expensive though, and so is buying 20 gcc’s till you find one actually worth a damn. Some people still think box style controllers have an advantage over the phobs, but this is more debatable now. I say let em play! My hands could give out and force me to switch one day anyway!

[@WolfKriegV]

The box takes away margin of error.but you still have to condition yourself to it

[@Hexra_]

Ludwig is talking like a 2013 retired osu! player on how to get pp in 2023

[@christopherveal8346]

Smash players is the most oblivious people when it comes to anything other than smash.

[@davidliimatta3684]

I remember when people were saying that kadano (a melee controller modder) invented the potentiometer, crazy shit

[@snarf1851]

We either get consistent controllers and fixes or we gamble on GC controllers being good or not. I think the best option is a no brainer.

[@darcyuchiha938]

who is charlie talking to ? that voice isnt familiar to any melee top player ive heard in my entire life(edit yea I got the joke after finding another clip Ludwig’s a funny guy who baited so hard I was like “yo who is this guy “

[@miguelmiranda2544]

Ludwig

[@merciless972]

His conscious

[@user-nm9yd4wq4s]

slime's friend

[@goatfood1504]

The guy who’s wife got pissed at Atrioc

[@Frank7489]

I say let all controllers be used. As long as it’s not breaking rules like using macros let them be. Melee is so hard on the hands, if ppl can play more comfortably using boxx or remapping buttons I’m all for it.

[@btctroy4217]

why are they using CRT screens?

[@HuSH_cptfalcon]

lower input delay

[@btctroy4217]

@@HuSH_cptfalcon thought so, but wasn't sure. thx man

[@epicthief]

Standardized the box

[@bawbehh]

Wait so after all that bullying leffen did towards haxx he's switching to box? the dude literally tried to get haxx to commit suicide and then he flops sides whenever it's convenient for him, of fucking course. The smash community is honestly so degenerate for keeping an actual psychopath around because "he has a sick fox"

[@name8329]

youre as schizo as hax is

[@majora919]

I don't understand how you can try to get someone to commit suicide.

[@Amitlu]

@@majora919 Bullying basically?

[@flashdr1ve]

leffen is genuinely a stain on society and the smash community will do everything they can to hide that fact

[@majora919]

@Obi DeBoy these guys literally go go smash tournaments I don't think bullying is an option for them here. I don't see how you get bullied by someone you barely know too in a public setting...

[@charc0al_tv]

I like Ludwig but for your next Melee video you should get somebody who knows what they're talking about hah

[@RobertAntonyJameson]

OEM controllers suck, get modded all the time. UCF also is ~always active. I'd allow everything but macros.

[@sneakysnail9225]

Mew2king said he got hand pain from playing fox lmao. I think the box should def be legal but like the guy said needs to be nerfed.

[@absolutelynathan2453]

bro potentiometers are the standard stickboxes in nintendo controllers ludwig is so out of touch lmao

[@Farkonso]

Controller discussion never gets anywhere because Hax$ can't get along with people

[@E-Brightvoid]

Melee is sick

[@keptpromise]

another day another banger this is lit fire emoji fire emoji

[@Infoagemage]

Boi using a flip phone 😂❤

[@Dman1272]

A potentiometer a resistor that can change its resistance based on the position of the analog stick which determines the movement of the character

[@Dman1272]

High end controllers don’t use a potentiometer in the analog stick instead they use sensors that can detect the electric field based on the sticks movement which is a lot more reliable since potentiometers can degrade and not be as precise

[@soulflame99]

wtf happened to leffen? puberty hit him hard

[@NotoriousTim]

I'm 27 and I still get really bad acne and breakouts. Shit sucks.

[@nyxranobody3690]

What happens when you simp for Jisu

[@chairwood]

he's always had kinda bad skin

[@soulflame99]

@@NotoriousTim True, but i remember him always having good skin and looking like a kpop model. of course couldve just been youtube lighting and effects in his videos

[@georgehernandez2156]

All them drugs

[@CarbonMalite]

There exists a fundamental flaw of the game and the best fix is "controversial" simply because it's a solution. I don't get it

[@mrwvupersonguy]

IM MOKING! IM DOKING!!!!

[@NoisyyCricket]

“People have DQ’d before because their controller broke” Why don’t they have 2 tourney controllers? How does a professional not have a back up controller on hand? Even kids with no siblings get multiple controllers for when their friends come over.

[@Summer_Tea]

Have you never tried playing Melee with someone else's controller? Going from the one you use all the time to any other controller, be it a brand new one or something else, will feel like you are a pianist being asked to play guitar. You basically lose all your skills. The thumbstick especially has like a thousand different subtle variations of stick drift that it could be at, and Smash requires you to be very in tune with exactly how much to tilt your thumbstick for a variety of actions.

[@biggiewiggie5557]

This argument has been going on in the more traditional fighting game community for decades, and pad/controller players have won major tournaments, including EVO. Just ban controller modification unless it's under very specific parameters that the community have known about for the 2-3 decades the game has been around.

[@damiancarr168]

Well the problem is more then that in melee. It's a arguement of a fair and level playing field. Because controllers vary so wildly one player can have a unfair advantage against another even using a stock controller. And it's not just easier or harder, a lot of controllers **cannot** do these things, it's mechanically impossible. So "pros" end up spending hundreds or thousands of dollars buying up all the OLD GC controllers trying to find a good one to have this unfair advantage. So players are getting P2W'd by these controllers because the tech is game changing. It's the difference between marth grabbing you at 50 and doing a extra 20% and him grabbing you at 50 and killing you off pivot tippper fsmash. I don't think any other fighting game(that I'm aware of) is having these issues. Especially because Nintendo changed the way they make controllers in a bad way. The new controllers are even more inconsistent and are still worse then the old ones. So the price to pay and compete in melee just keeps rising every year as more and more of these controllers are bought up, horded, and then eventually broken reducing supply. It's really not as simple as everyone thinks and the problem goes very very deep. I've only scratched the surface of a single issue with letting things stand as they are and everyone using "normal" controllers. KZbin comment section is too short and I'd end up writing a book that many others have written better.

[@SAWS1234]

thats what UCF and phobs are doing.

[@biggiewiggie5557]

@@damiancarr168 Yeah, holy shit, I have never heard of any other game PERIOD having that kind of issue. I don't even know where to start if you wanted to regulate that kind of thing besides literally inspecting the controllers of every participant, and that just isn't viable with how long Smash tournaments tend to go on, even the smaller ones.

[@YightLagami]

⁠@@damiancarr168 controllers are going to be outdated. So just allow the hit box controllers if that is the case.I don’t get why you would want to ban it unless it’s too expensive/inaccessible to the common player

[@Ick.-]

If Charlie knows nothing about Melee, he could at least listen to someone who knows what they’re talking about lol. Lud wrongly complaining about potentiometers and spreading misinformation is insane.

[@mxcascade]

Controllers with Melee suck so much lmao 5 of the top 16 players at BoBC5 had some form of controller issue

[@slamkam07]

Lmao dude said potentiometers are cheating. Yeah bruh it's cheating to make sure your stick doesn't degrade.

[@RTU130]

Lol

[@boneapart2250]

lol. A potentiometer is just an adjustable resistor. Like a volume knob. So I don't think there are any in a controller.

[@python395]

What's funny is every GameCube controller has potentiometers. It's part of the analog stick box. I believe it uses the value of the voltage to determine x/y values on the stick.

[@boneapart2250]

@@python395 ah, crap. yeah that makes sense. My B.

[@ThePi314Man]

It's a shame Charlie quit chess because he legit could've been a master ranked player

[@waretafai]

Absolutely not. He does not have what it takes to master anything. He begins learning quickly and then his ego gets involved and removes his ability to accept loss, thus, removing his ability to improve in any significant margin at anything competitive.

[@WellToastedBagel]

Look, since Ludwig is retired, imma just come out and say it. Former top player? I feel like that title is reserved for people who consistenly make it LEAST top 48 at higher ranking majors. Which if you look over his placings, he did not do whatsoever. He had one good placing at Smash the Record 2017, and that is about as big as some regional monthly tournaments. Placing higher than the likes of Hugs, S2J, Chillin and Lovage isn't a bad accomplishment at all. But doing it at a 128 man tournament just isn't the same as doing it a bigger event.

[@michelada831]

he can easily top 8 any tourney if he didnt stream. he's the baby goat

[@MintyPolaroid]

I agree placing high consistently is more important. But placing high in a small tournament like Summit would still be a tall accomplishment

[@DarkSnP]

Im extremely put of the loop on console ES. Why tf is not everyone using the same basic classic controller or a base line controller? Hearing a joke about how hard to use another person's controller sounds like someone is cheating unless controllers now have button mapping!? Why allow anything other than a base controller everyone is using!?!?

[@vj7248]

Gamecube is about two decades old, that 'baseline' isn't produced anymore. And even when it was, every controller was manufactured inconsistently. Some never break, others breaking after a few uses. And if anyone wanted to make a third party baseline, they'd need to get permission from Nintendo. And Nintendo hates competitive Melee.

[@DarkSnP]

@@vj7248 ah that explains a lot then I appreciate the comment, I never thought the company itself was in the way of baseline controller. Tyvm

[@Junya01]

@@DarkSnP and for the record Nintendo sometimes does produce GameCube controllers still, or GameCube style controllers for switch, but their quality and build isn't nearly as good as some of the older ones used for melee today. I recommend watching asumsaus's video on melee controllers to know more

[@ZeroOverOne]

stick fight

[@Chicken-nugg]

I want someone to slap me with there stick

[@sleepyv2000]

Duh box is like a keyboard pretty much in comparison to a console controller

[@Glitch935]

Why is it a big deal to use someone elses controller aren't they all built the same? I'm genuinely curious.

[@HuSH_cptfalcon]

stock GameCube controllers can vary greatly from one to another and then if you add mods to that it makes it even worse

[@Captain_Bobvious]

I play Rushdown Revolt with a boxx style controller, but that's only because I'm 32 and don't want to kill my hands lol.

[@DoctorDeuce]

jesus christ youre not gonna kill your hands because a single professional player who grinded 1000x more than you developed hand problems that may or may not be related... just an excuse to cheat

[@DoctorDeuce]

also that game sucks

[@Captain_Bobvious]

@DemonZonkey I suck at the game much like you suck at life. Try spending your time doing something more productive.

[@0008loser]

​@Doctor Deuce Jesus christ could you cry anymore harder lmao

[@DoctorDeuce]

@@0008loser solid counterargument

[@dontassociate]

So just tell Nintendo to make new controllers or just swap all to box if there’s so many issues with the original controller compensate your players

[@sage798]

You got more faith in Nintendo than me that's for sure

[@Mousyy]

Nintendo actively fucks tourneys, why would they do that?

[@damiancarr168]

They already did when they released Smash Ultimate and the controllers were worse(for melee) **and** had terrible QC issues so they were even more wildly different from controller to controller then the old ones.

[@Mousyy]

@@damiancarr168 and this

[@ferretyluv]

Nintendo doesn’t care about the pro community.

[@celnocks_2354]

…… ALL controllers use potentiometers…. Man shows his ignorance right up front.

[@JnL_SSBM]

*Both controllers are pretty good!!*

[@aimlesslyalex7210]

Quality upload

[@chasesmith7215]

melee is so deep and nuanced

[@americantimemachine7128]

If there was an easy way to create a "standard controller" that would solve all issues. It could probably be cheaply done if it weren't for copyright issues. That being said, I don't think BOXX should be playable with GC controllers. It's like showing up to a soccer game with a different ball.

[@mazterhaze122]

Doesn't that just mean it's a macro

[@blackoriginthreshold7126]

Leffen lol im surprised he isnt banned yet

[@tpete096]

All Leffen does is whine and complain

[@JKallday19]

Used to love this shit but who can break out this and the og out the closet😅🎉

[@namufoxy]

Only watch like a third, Ludwig is saying some nonsense rofl

[@metalsonic2099]

Playing a modded version of the game on modded controllers.. not melee.. literally.. this chet isn't real melee..🔵✨💨

[@ThatOneGuyEef]

I think we as a community should allow the use of the boxx. They’re people who can’t play the game without a controller like the box due to the hand pains the game causes. What we should do is find a fair way to nerf the boxx.

[@DarkSnP]

If one is known for pain would any sense be made to making a box standard??

[@georgehernandez2156]

Hitbox are for tryhards.

[@theredwedge9446]

Keyboard enjoyer

[@AzizTheGOAT72]

goated

[@negativenancy3738]

I just want to be allowed to play at locals on my ASCII Keyboard Controller without being laughed at🥹

[@Addison-wq5cq]

Ludwig was NEVER ever ever ever a top player. Not even close. So fucking fraudulent for him to even say that. He was a subpar commentator who played. Thats it. Slime and about 20 others were and are better than he was as a commentator. He blew-up on twitch not because of melee, but he acts like a cartoon and appeals to children and teenagers.

[@KFSenpai]

If you have to make a bunch of concessions and changes and then modifications to even get to pro level play; you are no longer playing the game. No items, flat stages, and now not using the controller the game was made for? You aren't even playing Smash anymore you're playing some Streetfighter clone.

[@ferretyluv]

And that’s why Nintendo hates the pro community.

[@KFSenpai]

@kk12ie Gee golly, you’re right I have no idea what I’m talking about. How about we play Mario party, but no mini games, those are unfair. No random stars those are also unfair. That way we can get into the core gameplay. Rolling dice. It says a lot when the default mode the game ships in isn’t played because random items aren’t “balanced” dude it’s a party game designed for fun. If you replace or change every part of a ship at what point is it not the same ship you started with.

[@HuSH_cptfalcon]

​@@KFSenpai the only part being changed is the controllers, items off and choosing certain stages is completely accessible in vanilla melee

[@morganlak4337]

Literally why do you care lol go play with items on your own. People the game fun for themselves, what's wrong with that

[@armbusk]

i think this whole argument is generally dumb, and the fact that you see it so hard in the smash community is a perfect example of why everyone shits on "pro smash players" because they demand the most absurd shit out of their controllers for one, which just extremely increases the barrier for entry. I think any game competitive or not should allow any control type, but i also don't think you should coddle an obviously worse choice, take FPS games, and controllers having effectively aimbot, if you choose the inferior option, you should get punished, and if hbox is so much better, then hey finally a new controller type that's viable, that should be celebrated.

[@HuSH_cptfalcon]

the problem is that boxxs are expensive and hard to get even if you have the money, which actually makes the barrier of entry higher

[@Junya01]

@@HuSH_cptfalcon you say that like GOOD vanilla stock gc controllers are any less expensive. One, buying a random one is essentially a lottery because the ones produced back older are better for melee, and the manufacturing for controllers then was wildly inconsistent in terms of build and quality. That's why pro players gobble up the used gc controller market, to sift the crap from the gold which is in itself a pay wall to compete seriously And even then, since modding of gc controllers is allowed, paying someone to mod your controller also takes hundreds of dollars for quality mods, so the cost of that is essentially the same as a boxx or similar controller. But ultimately, if you're a casual that goes to weeklies or plays slippi online it's not like we're competing as pros who need every advantage they can get so

[@HuSH_cptfalcon]

@@Junya01 to be clear, I was just refuting the claim that boxes lower the barrier of entry when they don't because you can find a gcc that works just fine for 70 or less, also just to be clear i don't think boxes should be banned but they aren't some perfect solution

[@armbusk]

@@HuSH_cptfalcon no obviously they're not a perfect solution, but i disagree, this barrier for entry with classic gc controllers is only gonna get bigger as stock eventually get used up and decay, y'know entropy and all that. Whereas a hbox is newly manufactured.

[@dubvcronix6584]

Surely just have them as separate categories so controller and box players dont fight if its such a big problem.

[@HuSH_cptfalcon]

I think that the stupidest solution to this problem I have ever heard

[@immameme]

Hey GamesImma1st

[@TomokoV93]

GC's shoulder buttons take eons to fully press from my experience the SN30 pro by 8bitdo is like thee best controller for smash imo

[@steffan5982]

Bro enough with the mods for controllers and boxes. Play the game as it was intended with a normal GC controller. It makes it cooler to witness tech being pulled off and it makes the ultimate triumph in a set that much more meaningful because the victory is earned with raw skill. It's like if basketball players were to play with a shoe that gave them the perfect vertical leap every time to make a dunk. Sure, you could make that leap consistently with enough training but it reduces the impact of a powerful dunk when everyone on the court is able to do it consistently and ultimately sports are about players showing off their skill so why take away from that skill ceiling when it just makes the sport less emphatic.

[@Infoagemage]

I appreciate your purist take, I’m the same. If I was running a tourney it would be that.

[@Junya01]

A "normal" gc controller doesn't exist. Even vanilla controllers, some are duds and others are higher quality for melee due to manufacturing differences. This isn't like a PlayStation gamepad where the playing field between controller to controller is at least negligible. I recommend watching asumsaus's video on the subject

[@HuSH_cptfalcon]

do you allow phobs? goomwaves? notches? trigger plugs? where do you draw the line? this will also completely wall out people with hand injury's or people at risk of them

[@Invictus_Mithra]

Leffen is so full of shit lol

[@JagrasSneedandFeed]

Im so glad Im not a smash player lmfao

[@waretafai]

Dude why does Charlie talk about shit he knows nothing about

[@ocircles738]

Boxx and similar all have the problem of digital > analog conversion. It is a macro which on its own is ban-worthy just on principle. The problem comes from them having access to perfect cardinal direction inputs in a single frame. Remember that the game requires you to MOVE THE STICK, and that moving the stick actually takes time that is super impactful in the game since melee operates on analog inputs, not digital. If on one frame you're pressing 80% to the left, that will give you a different outcome from when you're pressing 100% to the left in a combo scenario. Also moving from 100% left to neutral in a frame is impossible because of snapback. This is where the controversy comes from. Boxx should be banned.

[@GibGibson]

I know this is irrelevant but I find it insane how marvel can pump out the she hulk show and accept that as a finished, quality product yet can do so well as to make the guardians trilogy.

[@nyxranobody3690]

We’re still crying about she hulk?!

[@why2k87]

Don't care didn't ask

[@Infoagemage]

Lol. Bro has an axe to grind.

[@DarkSnP]

Random she hulk shade show musta hurt this man 😂