CONTROVERSIAL Empire Knights BETTER than Bretonnian Knights?! | Warhammer The Old World

[@David-mx1os]

I think the Empire should have comparable knights to Bretonnia really. I'd still rather pay the extra to get all those Bret knight special rules though, particularly lance formation. Empire's big advantage over Bretonnia is war machines, so they're able to sit back much more. Bretonnia has some ranged capability but they're more geared towards charging in. I think GW did a good job designing both armies - they're both humans, but they play differently and feel balanced against each other

[@Giledhil01]

The last FAQ cleared up things and confirmed that Drilled allows to reform before a charge. That makes imperial knights even more interesting, for fast flanking units!

[@Tigerheart01]

I really hope that when The Old World gets to the Empire one of the NEW sculpts released is the Empire Knights.

[@Bog_Dog]

Seems not but, can still hold out for a character who knows

[@JamesTillmanjimthegray]

brets are going to hit with more knights usually do to lance formation which means more damage output and survive hits a little better

[@scelonferdi]

Yeah, my first thought. They aren't equal in terms of damage due to lance.

[@Jewus19]

are they? only if your lance is bigger than 6 models. In most cases (at least for my personal bretonnian lists) the number of attacking models is about equal.

[@janehrahan5116]

@@Jewus19 So, compared to a single line of empire knights, lance will always have fewer attacks per model, however in practice unit widths above 5 are unwieldy, above 8 virtually unusable. For an empire knight unit to get the same combat resolution as knight of the realm 6 lance, you need 7 knights attacking (each knight averages less than 1 kill)

[@JamesTillmanjimthegray]

you almost always imho want a lance of 9 , @@Jewus19

[@Marc-jz6bb]

@@Jewus19 Also supporting attacks are limited as only 3 models are in base contact with the lance. Horses not in base contact will not get an attack

[@markmooney9416]

HRE Theme > Feudal Anglo-Franco Theme. Points efficiency is usually a solid strategy when list building, I would say. Taking 2-handers allows them to slug it out and therefore probably a better core unit than lances. Would you say they are better candidates for marching column, so if you get charged you wont be losing anything with 2-handers. Dare to suggest Drilled to reform for free out of said column?

[@CyrodiilCome]

On the charge with two handers they lose to all bretonnian calvary

[@jacobeliasson8665]

Dude, I´ll always go for the silver horn on my Preceptor. Hate to roll that 1 on swiftstride. Also i use charmed shield on my sargents, I think it´s worth it for 5 pts. Could also do luck stone but then i cant have that horn. Love the content! You have inspired me to take up my old Empire army from 20 years ago and im making good progress. Cheers!

[@acrylnick2281]

Mix and match for what you need. Great weapons seem great for small flanking units. But units of lances to break enemy lines seems great too.

[@MagicJuggler]

I've been running Empire Knights as a "taxicab service" for Demigryph heroes, essentially granting them Drilled by proxy.

[@Ageing_Grognard_]

If your more interested in lore than meta then my choice of Middenheim has given me a great choice of knights. Panthers with lance and White wolves with massive hammers

[@samueljosephwilson-lassall7508]

Flavour on flavour on flavour 🎉

[@mcairns2846]

Looking forward to Inner Circle knights. They are even better :-)

[@chookee1080]

Lore wise: Empire knights are just dudes with lances told to charge and win, Bretonnian Knights are dudes with glowing sticks that uses a dubious god's bathwater as steroids

[@samueljosephwilson-lassall7508]

She smells so good tho

[@SpriteAndSmite]

I see very little reason not to always go with demigryphs to secure the flank and turn the centre of the board into a hail of lead. I mean empire knights are a solid core choice, but demigryphs do it all even at minimal investment

[@lucianaurelius2418]

Yeah no lol

[@Armageddon11011989]

The amount of copium being smoked is quite high. Tbf this edition they really did empire knights dirty by removing access to plate armor for regular knights. Brettonian knights for 2 points more get +1 movement and a 6+/5+ ward save. I mean it's not even a contest at this point 😂

[@janehrahan5116]

@@Armageddon11011989 and finest warhorses ability, and lance formation which lets you get rank bonus with near 100% combat capacity.

[@T0beyeus]

@@Armageddon11011989 Empire was done dirty in many ways, the high cost of State Troops and the Detachment and Regimental Unit rules being distributed to other armies. If the Empire Knights also lost Plate Armor that is another nerf :(

[@janehrahan5116]

@@T0beyeus elite knights and grifknights still have it.

[@Jewus19]

@@janehrahan5116in what way does lance formation impact rank bonus?

[@matt9591]

I love empire knights.Ive played a few games where I gave them stubborn and used them as MSU and it was a nice role player in the core slot

[@fiskcakes]

I agree. They look like really good multi purpose units, that can defend against enemy chaff well. People say that stubborn is wasted on MSU units, but I’ve found it really useful, because the unit has a small amount of attack dice, if you fluff the dice you have stubborn to fall back on.

[@Stobo087]

Shroud of iron on a decent sized unit is a useful bonus ward save for 10 points. More cost effective than praying. And you can throw in a warrior priest for rerolls

[@KyleMiddleton7]

Imagine having heavy cavalry that you can't resurrect when it dies. Blood Knights baby!

[@ToAqui210]

Between Empire and Brettonia I'd rank: Knights Errant < Empire Knights < KotR < Inner Circle Knights and Questing Knights < Grail Knights. Demis are monstrous so fill another niche, Grail is a whole other level. Questing Knights and Inner Circle have different uses, but both are top of the line. Empire knights even with stubborn and drilled assuming you can reform before charge are strictly worse than kotr. Knights Errant are the most cost effective, you can field a fuckton of them and they do basically the same damage in lance charges, but in terms of stats are worse and impetuous is shit.

[@janehrahan5116]

Knights errant are the best for chaff clearing, them charging without orders against chaff screens isn't really a downside.

[@LSOP-]

You've gotta do a break down of the Empire characters - I cannot for the life of me tell them apart.

[@Jewus19]

I use regular knights to fullfill my core tax. In small units, 4-5 men, on the flanks. great against skirmishers and screens of any kind. As a hammer I use a bigger unit of inner circle knights to overload a flank. Fill the rest of the points with shooting (including a couple of fat wizards and engineered hellblasters) and you have a strong list.

[@michaelf.7339]

Seriously thought about 4 man units of empire knights but I think having to panic after 1 gets shot is not worth it for me personally so 5 is my way to go for flanking and redirecting.

[@barator03]

You need to loose more than 25% for a panic test. One knight out of 4 is exactly 25% and doesn’t trigger panic

[@michaelfechir5581]

Good point, thank you for clarifying. In that case, 5 is just more attacks and it gives unit strength 10, which is needed to break heavy infantry and kav in the flank and rear.

[@nicholasbizzarri9043]

Where is Empire full plate armor? Is it safe? Is it alright?

[@normtrooper4392]

On the greatswords and knights of the Inner circle

[@dan8981]

@@normtrooper4392 and Demigryphs

[@jacobeliasson8665]

I had a game last weekend against Undead. I had 7 knights (might have been inner circle though) with an Grand master carrying the Laurels of victory. It was insane - they probably smashed about 80 skeletons ands run over the necromancer without losing a single knight. I think the "regular" knights are great against chaff. Ill try to take 4 or 5 of them with a Chapter master with Laurels of victory and see how it plays out.

[@Tangodownmtndew]

How come you didn’t mention inner circle knights and full plated armor? This makes them a ton better against one another. I would say the advantage of Bretonnia knights is that you can use the different knights to do different things. The regular knights with strength 3 I probably wouldn’t charge monstrous creatures except in dire cases. Grail knights and inner circle knights I would feel more comfortable. Also, any enemy unit with strength four with lots of attacks in which I know I’ll be in prolonged combat, I wouldn’t use any knights with strength 3 against.

[@MordianGlory]

Coming in a seperate video!

[@Tangodownmtndew]

@@MordianGlory is the man! Thanks for all your work on these videos!

[@CyrodiilCome]

Knights errant on the charge are strength 5

[@Tangodownmtndew]

@@CyrodiilCome all knights are. It’s more about prolonged combat. The strength 3 knights get worn down if they are facing high strength units.

[@CyrodiilCome]

@@Tangodownmtndew so don't charge knights with lances into prolonged combats unassisted

[@RogerComorera]

Back in the Warhammer fantasy times, that was already the case xD

[@Desperate_Measures]

MG if you think Emp knights are good you need to do a vid on mark of khorne chaos marauder horsemen with flails... insane for their points (skirmishers if wanted, 2 attacks each, warband for charge rerolls, immune to psy, move 8 swiftstride, hits at S5 ap2 on charge and always ap2 even if charged for only around 80pts for 5... quite fragile but extremely spammable distraction carnifexes)

[@Joeseph113]

1 v 1 an empire knight vs a knight of the realm the KOTR wins the statistical majority of the time. The KOTR will always get the charge on the Empire Knight because of swiftstride and movement 8 vs 7. That means the KOTR will always get to use its lance and deliver that big hit, whereas the empire knight will never get to use its lance even with countercharge. Even 5 KOTR vs 6 Empire Knights, the KOTR will statistically cause 3 wounds and take maybe 1 back if any, meaning the Empire knights will lose combat. Its not 10 points more for 5 kotr vs 5 empire knights, its 12 points more for 6 empire knights vs 5 kotr and the empire knights still statistically are likely to get slaughtered in an isolated 1 unit vs 1 unit battle. Lets also remember that these units perform wildly different functions on the battlefield. Empire knights are heavy hitting but are flanking units by design. KOTR are main line units, they are used very differently in each army

[@anotherdadjoke]

Errants into empire Knights, ws3 hits on 4+, same as realm knights. Realm knights into ws3 infantry, hitting on 3+. I do not use questing knights, but I am starting to rethink my opinion on great weapons.

[@WeirdWizardDave]

Great weapons look tempting but I suspect its a trap. If you take the free option you lose that extra point of armour from the shield against ranged attacks too and going from failing an armour roll 33% of the time to 50% of the time is a big hit on a toughness 3 model. Furthermore Init 4 at best is just not good enough when there are plenty of units in the game with init 4+ as a base, especially without the shield to help protect them. Yes if the knights get bogged down they're going to struggle with just hand weapons but they're going to be much more effective if you can keep them from getting bogged down in the first place, great weapon or no. As for the vs Bretonnian Knights question, you're not factoring in the Lance formation. A 10 strong unit of Bretonnian knights gets to attack with 7 of its models while wheeling around a 2 width rank. 10 Empire knight are probably going to be in 2 ranks of 5, giving them a much wider wheel arc and only 5 models able to attack. Empire knights could spread into a big line but that is unwieldy, vulnerable to a flank charge and you sacrifice the +1 rank bonus. Bretonnia also has access to some magical items and banners which are better for Knights. Empire knights are great but they're not going to carry a game for the Empire in the same way Bretonnian knights do.

[@wakankinyan]

Loved the video, but just FYI i would pay 20 pts to have tge better unit in a matchup

[@stuntman083]

If you check the rules I thought it said heavy calvary can only rank up 4 wide, meaning empire knights will not be able to get anywhere close to the same attacks as Bret knights.. making Bret knights infinitely better

[@cmxpiipl]

Questing knights don't even have counter charge while knights of the realm do wth?

[@mitchcowan1446]

No lances I guess. They are a ws 5, great armor, blessing of the lady, and virtues. Great Cav Anvil to setup countercharges ;)

[@lupusprimealpha6198]

Bretonnian infantry better than empires? Empire knights better than bretonnias? What is this upside down world? :P Next.. Dismounted Knights of the realm with great weapons vs Greatswords! Archers vs Squires! Halfbird with catbacklegs vs halfbird with horsebacklegs!

[@jonasstenbergkarlsson5934]

Well, the empire is a few hundred years ahead of bretonnia technologically and sociall so they no doubt have better raw materials, equipment and training.

[@jonasstenbergkarlsson5934]

Its the wood elf conspiracy holding bretonnia back.

[@CyrodiilCome]

Nah Bretonnian knights are definitely better trained than Empire knights lore wise

[@anthonyallmond3682]

Bretonnian knights are literally the best human Cavarly in the old world

[@jonasstenbergkarlsson5934]

@@anthonyallmond3682 Yeah, for killing peasants. Fighting in a modern army supported by artillery and gunpowder, not so much.

[@anthonyallmond3682]

@@jonasstenbergkarlsson5934that’s what the Blessings that let cannons and Arrows bounce off them are for

[@tjturner4461]

The brets will more likely out combat res you in the end....10 empire knights is only 1 rank....brets lance give 3 ranks for 10 knights...the ward save kinda off sets the great weapons....and your inner circle does bring something to the table.....questing knights just hit harder.....demi knights are tasty and look cooler then our Pegasus knights ill give that cept missing furious charge and lance of course

[@scepteredisle]

if they're not getting new models to replace the dodgy plastic knights from 2000 which really, really don't stand up these days then who actually cares? And it's inexplicable that regular Empire Knights get Heavy Armour not Fully Plate. Where did that notion come from exactly? The models all have the same type.

[@clonetf141]

I think it has to do with the idea that its in the past so the empire doesnt use as mutch full plate as they did before the end times???

[@PrimordialNightmare]

I got myself a box of brettonian knights to see if I can kitbash them in a way that makes them look empire -ish enough while selling that heavy armour visually. But yeah, without new sculpts, playing non-inner circle knights isngoing to be weird.

[@TheDelta07sev]

Breaking news, 16th century Knights better than 12th century Knights

[@ProxyHammer1]

4+ because they came in units of 8

[@leonemaledetto1500]

It's crazy! Empire knights better than bretonnia Bretonnian infantry better than Empire

[@acrylnick2281]

Drilled needs to be FAQd but given that you reform before the move you cant marching columb up and then reform to charge. You can turn into marching collumb move sonewhere and give up charging next turn as you cannot charge in Marching columb and would need to either drilled again for a shorter move. Great for late game repositioning but not something that yoy can abuse as much as people think. Also i dont think you will be able to charge and use drilled as your making a charge move not a regular move. We will see where the community lands on this in a few months.

[@chetmanley1885]

Both are terrible compared to the mighty Boar Boy

[@Tangodownmtndew]

Empire knights have always been better. Britonia a little easier to use with ranks and points.

[@MrRlsquared]

Greatweapons on knights is a meme. lances all the way.

[@janehrahan5116]

20:30 yes, in terms of damage alone kotr are less efficient than empire. but in terms of combat resolution they are superior. So, lets take the average damage of a knight vs a state trooper (spear) knight and horse average .7222 kills less than 1 combat res bretonias lance lets you have 5 attacking knights (one champion) for 6 models to get the same combat res as empire you need 7 knights (costs more) in one line (starting to be unweildy) or you need 9 knights in a double rank(thanks for LSOP for reminding me). I don't think I need to explain why thats worse. 22:10 kinda, its more about being a space marine program for an elf waifu, but yeah its kinda weird that the cav is only slightly better for bretonia. one last note, bretonian paladins are one of the most point efficient killing units, and can be spammed in knights far better than imperial chapter men.

[@Raygun9000]

What it if were two units of 4 EKnights? It's a bigger points sink, but 2 champions would be tasty, and one unit could have great weapons.

[@janehrahan5116]

@@Raygun9000 Let me be clear, imperial knights are definitely good. I would absolutely reccoment any imperial take them to fill out core, but they are gonna struggle vs their feudal bretheren in practice unsuported. Thankfully you lot have artilery.

[@LSOP-]

Cavalry ranks are 4 wide not 5.

[@janehrahan5116]

@@LSOP- correct, my bad, you'd need 9, my point remains the same though, 9 is more than 6. Furthermore unless blunted a lance works with as few as 3 models, meaning they keep their bonus through 3 losses while one loss through incidental fire will break the 9 knight rank bonus.

[@anthonyallmond3682]

@@janehrahan5116as they should Bretonnia is the Cavarly faction

[@mohamedmaiza3866]

so Bretonnia has better infantry and empire has better cavalry lol wtf is going on!

[@jamestompsett6234]

saying "W" out loud has more syllables than just saying win.

[@jurgen4466]

Do you need to scream and act like a salesman on a Tv show?? I would like to hear your views but its just to much as it is. 🤔

[@beanspud88]

​@@bikinibandit2398 please show us on the mordian Blow up where he touched you. Was it the nono place?

[@jokerman9623]

Bro just leave. Its obviously working out for him.

[@davidbrand7316]

It's part of the charm

[@blurg9677]

Dude if it’s not for you, KZbin is filled with other old world content

[@klauskeller6380]

Imagine you are a loser bretonian knight in your lance formation and try to charge the chad empire knights. And then they blunt your lance with a countercharge and slaughter you. Obviously the empire knights are better.

[@janehrahan5116]

if the bretonians charge within 8" the empire can't counter charge, if bretonia counter charges empire they keep lance, empire loses both ways (empire can't move into safe charge range of bretonia without giving bretonia a safe charge first) no matter what bretonia will keep its lance, no matter what bretonia will keep its combat res, its extra ward save, no matter what if the bretonian plays correctly the empire knights cannot win point for point.

[@klauskeller6380]

@@janehrahan5116 if bretonians countercharge, they are still charged by an enemy unit and become blunted

[@troybirch6478]

P111 forces of fantasy. Blunting the lance. They are not blunted I'd they counter charge.

[@mitchcowan1446]

​@klauskeller6380 wrong. They are only blunted if charged in a flank, and they cannot counter charge outside their los, so can't be both.

[@janehrahan5116]

@@mitchcowan1446 Thanks, didn't want to have to look it up myself but knew he was wrong.

[@janehrahan5116]

reeeeeeeeeeeee (detailed response coming later)