Cooking with Kawaii: Do big pulls actually matter?

#FinalFantasyxiv #FFXIV #endwalker #Dungeons #xeems #shapenchair
I'm like a month late to this party Q_Q, but the "mane tank" drama got me thinking, so I ran a little experiment :) While in the midst of a bit of a rebranding of sorts.
this is mainly brought up becasue of how ‪@XenosysVex‬ runs ahead and pulls...but my group ran out of time to run that last test, but oh well! And i could imitate, but i in no way could say "a gain on two" better then the man himself, ‪@MisshapenChair‬
PS. Healthy disagreement is totally fine, and I mean no ill will towards anyone in this video. I'm just a silly dude doing silly things.
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[@crimsonbok]

It's just basic math. If you're fighting a pack of 6 monsters, your 100 potency AoE becomes a 600 potency attack.

[@KawaiiDespair]

Well, I decided to run this experiment because the big button aoe spells all have falloff, so smaller packs would mean full potency on more targets. myb for leaving that bit out :(

[@pimpyshortstocking764]

@KawaiiDespair Damage always falls off past 1 enemy for the skills/abilities that state any type of falloff, so even a small pack it would activate. These are mutually exclusive. So either the attack deals full potency to all enemies (Healer and Tank spammable AoEs), or it has full potency to the first enemy, with fall off after (MOST but not all DPS AoEs).

[@KawaiiDespair]

Yes, but what I meant was. if I have two packs of three, I get 100% potency on more targets, versus one pack of six. For spells that don't have fall off(i think there are still some), potency wise it's a wash. Though, it takes more GCD's to clear multiple smaller packs(thus, longer to clear), it seems to be a bit of a minor loss.

[@pimpyshortstocking764]

@@KawaiiDespair I had to do the math some more to understand what you're saying but yeah okay I get it now. I still will never do it but I get it haha. Ultimately I am glad you did the video and put it to the test, so much appreciated :D

[@bluumberry]

It's not even about the speed for me at the end of it all. Single pulling is just less fun. And I want to have more fun with big numbers and pressing more buttons giving me the goodygood feels.

[@KawaiiDespair]

This is totally fair. Though, i do kinda wish dungeon trash was more like criterion and a little more involved but thats a different discussion lol.

[@metaknightmare1234]

like the video, one thing i have to add though is that if people are really doing single target on mobs in dungeons, chances are they aren't using the "correct" or optimal rotation on top of that. from personal experience, what it means is no dot, no song bard, no iaijutsu samurai, whm that never use holy, assize, etc. And so that *on top* of not doing big pulls is what *really* makes it drag on even longer than you might expect with testing. Especially considering how two categories in the video were raid buffs on cd, and raid buffs before boss. But realistically, for actual problem players, they might not even use raid buffs because they don't know what half their buttons do. So the real time differential is likely larger still.

[@KawaiiDespair]

Yeah, and at that point, it doesn't really matter how much stuff is pulled, it's gonna take a while and tanks are rolling through more mit.

[@michaelbart7014]

Yeah if I have a tank single pulling im not using my oGCDs and buffs. Feels extremely wasteful, and I imagine a lot of people are probably similar, especially when I watch them just doing their basic aoe rotation not using their stuff I already know we are doing less damage. As for tanks going through more mit, in a dungeon that doesnt really matter I personally feel. By lvl 90 they have so much mit, and no boss TB hits hard enough to be scary unless they have like 3+ vulns. Even Mt. Gulg which I think still have one of the hardest if not the hardest pulls in the whole game (a quadruple pull and a triple pull) with lots of mob aoes are manageable with on lvl tank cooldowns and healers while the DPS slaughter everything in the dungeon in record time.

[@KawaiiDespair]

Running out of mit is more a problem with the trash doing a lot of damage, not the bosses.

[@GloaNeko]

This was surprisingly well made, I love the editing and work that went into this! :D Shoutout to the algorithm for bringing me here for no discernable reason!

[@KawaiiDespair]

Ah thank you! I've been working on improving my editing a lot!

[@vincentbeton]

I thought the Drama was about the Tank refusing to use AoE, thus failing on Enmity, not just pull solo packs. Either way, interesting to see some testing here, though of course a bigger sample size would be great. It is way less of a time loss than I expected

[@KawaiiDespair]

It was. But ehhh..it was a good excuse to talk about something a little bit more defendable :p.

[@evdomos]

The only one that does bug me is Battle on the Big Bridge; for some reason the tanks drag all the adds to the final room when stopping on the second set of adds to kill them all is significantly faster.

[@KawaiiDespair]

I've only done big bridge a couple times but yeah, its like "bro we got everything. lets just kill it now"

[@moosecat00]

It's worth noting that big pack pulling was also encouraged by the TP system, as spamming AoE dumped your TP extremely fast. Doubt it was intentional design, but I thought it was nice. Core game mechanics that would encourage players to play better are such a scarcity these days.

[@KawaiiDespair]

I miss TP. Just not when sprint ate it all lol. Take me back to stormblood lmao

[@leerylapine3728]

1:20 that guy is disassociating so very hard, he probably thinks he's in the matrix or something

[@KawaiiDespair]

yeah xD

[@saragillier]

I mean it also depends of party comp like, big pulls will melt way faster with good casters as their aoe rotation is way stronger, like 2 good BLMs bis and that know what they're doing will wipe big pulls in ~20s or less making the time difference between the w2w and single pulls much bigger. Another thing is when I do the latest dungeon with my group of much better than average friends we clear bosses faster so we skip downtime mechs which just amplifies the feeling of slowness when getting the dungeon through let's say mentor rolo, where people also die on mechs and so on, spending 27mins in there compared to 11:50 is of course biaised but very really numbers

[@KawaiiDespair]

Yeah, that's fair. team comp will probably play a factor in differences. But relative numbers, but going off my test runs, I'd still assume the numbers are fairly similar to each other. Just they would be lower across the board.

[@Jorvalt]

Instead of using the stopwatch on your phone, you could've just used the ingame clear times. Those start at entering the instance and end the moment the boss is killed afaik.

[@KawaiiDespair]

Yeah, bt we didnt always start running as soon as the gate fell so it also wouldn't have been perfectly accurate :( but that's a bit of our fault lmao

[@Backflip2002]

This missed the point of the original video, it was not pulling single packs that was the issue, they were complaining because the tank was only using single *target* moves which was causing the dps to pull aggro when they used AoE moves and get killed because the tank was also not using provoke. So it would not be AoE single groups vs AoE wall to wall pull for the comparison it would be Single target with no call or heads up who the tank was targeting without using target of target vs AoE wall to wall.

[@KawaiiDespair]

Kind of, maybe I did a poor job, but I at least tried to explain the issue with the original drama - this was meant to be a spin off per say, and not a direct response. But yes, the for sure the tank only doing his single target and not grabbing aggro is most certainly like at the very bottom of the skill floor.

[@cdsbradley]

How about the mentor special: single pulls, single target, gcds only

[@KawaiiDespair]

that sounds awful haha

[@loomingdeath1758]

Honestly long story short. Respect each other. Yet tanks you choose this play style. Respect your class more. Gear up properly, use materia, learn your class. At lvl 90 you should not be pulling slowly. You have had more than enough time to learn your class and your playstyle.

[@KawaiiDespair]

It's possible they bought a boost(which is terrible for a new player), or leveled it as an alt job through pvp or fates or something. But *personally* I don't really stress about other people's skill, I have no control over that - just how I react to it.

[@czarkusa2018]

No need to be apologetic about the length of this video in any way, you put hours into this and delivered 4 minutes of relevant contextualisation and 2 minutes of informative result analysis. That's a worthy outcome!

[@KawaiiDespair]

ah, thanks :)

[@Asin24]

I think it's good to also mention that single pack pulls also likely feel extra slow due to the fact if a tank is doing smaller packs, chances are they aren't that familiar with the game and how to play. It's going to make the run that much slower the more players who are clueless about their job works is in your group which will only further increase the amount of extra time it takes to clear the dungeon. Likewise how a really cracked team of amazing players will likely end up saving even more time wall to wall pulling on top of using raid buffs on adds.

[@KawaiiDespair]

Yeah, but it feels a lot slower then it actually is s;. But also, a tank gabbing everything doesn't always mean the rest of the party is cracked. :shrug:

[@chrisvargas5335]

Bad Video here are the Reasons. If you use ur Buff on the first Group it alwas comes up early/mid Boss fight. If you did Pull Wall to Wall and used everything Properly u start the Boss fight With alot of Resources (Resources Big Numbers) If Played Properly u will end a Dungeon with Wall to Wall packs under 14 min i Even did the newer Dungeons in 12 with random People. What i dont get is Why People wanna Waste there time in a Dungeon with Single pulls that Content is Boring enough on its own

[@KawaiiDespair]

I've probably done some EW dungeons in about 12-13 minutes, but because clear times are kind of relative, a 12 min wall to wall pull would only be like 15-ish if you didn't grab everything. yes, buffs come up early in bosses if you use them on the first pack, I'm really surprised that holding buffs for a "proper" opener on bosses is barely a time loss, I thought it'd be like at least 30 seconds lol. Yes, content is easy i don't disagree xD. finally, yeah, going war and 3 dps is going to save a lot of time but I wanted to try out how things would look with a DF pug. :)

[@PolychromeNEET]

Would limit breaking the mob packs as a range dps make a difference? I started doing that after I saw someone else do it.

[@KawaiiDespair]

Yes, you do a lot of extra damage using ranged/caster lb's on trash. :) We didn't have that option in this experiment tho :(

[@dracocrusher]

Thinking about it, a lot of the time is probably on the actual boss rooms, themselves, right? 14-17 minutes probably doesn't seem like that huge of a difference until you realize a lot of that is time that physically has to happen either way because you can only optimize fighting a boss so much. I know the results are the results, but if you looked at how long it took to kill JUST the mobs with and without big pulls, I'm sure the results would feel a lot more extreme, right? Just a thought.

[@KawaiiDespair]

It's probably about half? maybe less depending. The bosses are usually like 2:30-3 minutes each. I had thought about just doing just up until, or through the first boss but wasn't sure how that'd be in practice. Like if with big pulls we kill so fast that we don't have 2 minutes after the first boss, and if the smaller pulls we do get 2 minutes after the first boss that'd be more representative, probably?

[@dragoonsunite]

For my SHB relics, to get all jobs, I had to complete level 70 dungeons 15 times for each weapon, there are 19 weapons. That's 285 runs of level 70 dungeons. Now... if ONE tank is 3 minutes slower (Or to be fair, 2:30, since that's a bit closer, and I should round down not up), thats only 2:30 lost... However, the "standard" should always be respect peoples time, I can handle the exception, but it better be the exception, and it should be okay for me to tell them, "ya know, in the future you should consider pulling more." Since the golden rule matters here. To judge the moral value of a proposition, you compare the application of the proposition universally. Thus, lets assume your single pack mob pulling was the universal rule, not a one off, to explain WHY we make the standard wall to wall pulling... In that case, to finish my relics would cost me 285 runs times 2.5 minutes longer, or put another way, their lack of consideration would cost me 11 hours and 52 minutes of my life. Thankfully, MOST people aren't that discourteous... Why? Because we stigmatize them for being discourteous... So... Guess what, I'm going to keep stigmatizing them... Why? Because this is hardly the only dungeon running I have to do and farming dungeons is a large part of a LOT of content in this game, just thinking about weekly tomestone caps... Given the amount of time most end-game players or raiders have logged, I'm sure if this stigma disappeared, you'd start eliminating hundreds of hours of some peoples lives, and entire lifetimes taken in aggregate, the fact that its nickled and dimed 2.5 minutes at a time doesn't make it okay to me.

[@KawaiiDespair]

I have like..3 shb relics lol x.x, i salute your dedication. That being said, yes, I do think that everyone should go at the fastest pace they are comfortable with, and offering advice like, "hey, can we grab more" is totally acceptable. Though, for me the take away of this video shouldn't be "just grab stuff one pack at a time", it should be "flaming people who don't waste's more time then just vibing" apologizes for not being as clear as I could have been ^^.

[@eredkaiser]

There are only 17 Shb relics.

[@pforgottonsoul]

for me what has always been the detirmining factor of big pulling or not was whether your healer can handle it, because pulling everything to the end, dying, then having to do it all over again could be an even bigger waste of time rather than simply single pulling.

[@maracaegrizzley8734]

Might be interesting to make this a full test. Multiple groups all working with different compositions and all recording their clear times. Heck, with the drive to get those uncapped tomes for Relics right now, you could probably recruit a good spread of people. I don't think that it'd end up disagreeing with your result, though. Single pulls is longer, but not by a margin that's worth complaining about. And the reason why Trust runs are even longer than the Single Pull example is because other than the Tank, they only use single target moves. They're *designed* to go slower than players because they didn't want "running with the NPCs" to be "optimal".

[@KawaiiDespair]

Yeah, having a larger data set would be a fun test. Just gathering people together is not a strong suit of mine haha..:( And yeah, guild wars version of trusts really killed the game, because you can freely kit out their gear and loadouts and micromanage their rotations they were way better then people most of the time lol.

[@safermurderweapon]

"bit of drama recently" ppl have been debating big pulls for years

[@KawaiiDespair]

hopefully..we're one step closer to ending the debate now! lol

[@penultimania4295]

Nobody has been debating it, it's the standard. Even more so nowadays because there's no fcking healing to be done. You have no excuse.

[@adno4]

Great vid! And I must say that white mage has impeccable taste in glam.

[@KawaiiDespair]

lol, i think all four of those goobers do :)

[@TheDireLynx]

i'd love to see a video that goes all the way and shows things from the best you can do with savage raiders and synced gear all the way down to people at minimum ilevel to get in who don't know how to play their job but that would be way too much effort

[@KawaiiDespair]

like, how fast you can go in bis as a premade group vs going in with the last tier's tome gear and no materia and just pushing random buttons? Or am I mistaken?

[@Silidirian]

Based on the stuff shown in testing, it probably would have been even further apart from single pulls and group pulls, as double melee, meaning no 4% buff, and weaker overall AoE when compared to what the rPhys and casters can output (or even NIN), but most notably of all, not even considering speed, is tank and healer CDs. Single pulling packs means that the time in combat overall goes up, and as a result, the amount of defensive CDs or healing resources diminishes and eventually dries up, forcing more hardcast heals, slowing the rate down even further, or potentially resulting in a death (excluding if WAR is the tank, because they're just unnaturally busted in casual content this expac). The ability for DPS to just go nuts is a bonus benefit of the big pulls

[@KawaiiDespair]

I prolly shoulda asked adno if he had to do extra healing, and yeah party comp will change clear times. I think the speed run is like double black mage+melee or something silly. But at least with the guys I roped into this experiment, we never seemingly had any issues where the tank was getting low, and that was with a paladin. But ye, war is super giga busted in more casual content lol.

[@Null_Experis]

the single target vs AOE thing is exemplified by trusts vs PF. Mind, Trusts are programmed to basically use super attacks when a fight goes on too long and they will start doing 1000+ potency actions repeatedly to put an upper limit on fight times. If you go in as a DPS and AOE, the instance is usually 10-15% faster.

[@KawaiiDespair]

Oh, I didn't know that increase their dps as a fight goes on. Neato!

[@AnAverageBox]

great video. very funni editing

[@KawaiiDespair]

yay, Glad to be entertaining :)

[@blastedt]

if you get toxic and argue about it, it might not save you the time, but it can save future parties the tank terrorizes that time

[@KawaiiDespair]

maybe, or the tank would prolly just think that person is a nutter and disregard it. something about attracting more bees with honey then vinegar.

[@penultimania4295]

@Slukke and they are garbage for feeling entitled to my time.

[@dracocrusher]

Really, it just comes down to what the Tank is comfortable with. I'm not going to blame someone if they don't want to pull too hard because they're new to a dungeon or still fresh at the game, and any death is going to be slower than not dying. But at the same time, the big pulls are ideal and they just show the skill of the Tank (and healer) whenever you pull them off to speedrun a dungeon. Not everyone is going to be an expert that knows how to manage Tank Cooldowns, though. And that's okay, but the hard way was always going to be the fastest and most effective way. Just be sure to talk to your team if you're a newer Healer and you don't think you can handle these crazy speedrun strats. It's a cooperative game, after all, at the end of the day.

[@KawaiiDespair]

yee, all of this. And I'd even be okay with a tank "trying" to pull more to get used to it, even if it means we wipe. I'm all about that self improvement life.

[@petree]

Iooono i have had 25+ minute single pull runs

[@KawaiiDespair]

The idea for this video is that, if that same group had pulled everything, you'd like still be taking 19-21 minutes to clear with that specific group, ya know?

[@petree]

@KawaiiDespair oh I get it. But there are too many variables that cannot be controlled in a pug setting is what i was getting at. I shoulda been more specific. I can't control how well others want to play and while on average ya I usually finish all my runs fairly quickly. On single pull the whole waamy, there is fundamentally bad play at hand from someone and on average my runs on those have mostly been 25 mins+.

[@KawaiiDespair]

Though, I will say, group's who are only grabbing one pack at a time are more likely to be less skilled then group's that balls to the wall everything. But I have no freaking idea how to test for that lol :(

[@xslingy]

My stance as a support main (tank and healer) whom played all 8 to 90. .. If a tank or healer is not comfortable with wall 2 wall, then they just are not comfortable. Everybody plays at different levels. People who berate sprouts not yet comfortable with their move set really just need to take a breath of fresh air and realize that they are only trying their best. To those who activate no tank stances or healers whom over heal / dont attack monsters, those people do deserve just a light hearted pat on the back and told how they could play their classes a bit differently not overwork their healers, or to just speed along things. As for DPS who do spend all their time writing an autobiography on how the tank is being slow, yes you are indeed making the dungeon take incredibly longer. Again, not everybody is on your you exponential standards of being a nerd at a video game. This video was very well written out. thank you and good job to those that look out for people getting belittled by such toxic players. Its fortunate the toxic player base is a small minority, but I came across my fair share of them, and just want you to know, newer adventurers whom are reading this. Keep trying your best and have fun.

[@KawaiiDespair]

I can be pretty sweaty myself, I enjoy tackling hard content for the trill of it and wanting to continually be better at it. But I still remember back when I first started playing and still didn't *fully* understand weaving, and thought that alliance raids were harder then savage lol. If I see a healer not casting anything, and just hitting like cure, I'd prolly point out that the tank isn't in any real danger so they could throw out some damage, but as advice and not flaming lol. But thank you for the compliment! I appreciate it! ^^

[@Jorvalt]

Nobody's asking everyone to pull wall to wall. Just at least pull more than one pack at a time. I don't even really care about the completion times, for me it's about fun. Playing a healer is boring as shit when your tank single pulls, because you hardly need to do anything aside from spamming your one AoE button.

[@penultimania4295]

@Jorvalt playing a healer is boring as shit even when the tank pulls wall to wall because the Square fucktards have tanked the difficulty and damage of dungeons. There us no healing to be done.

[@penultimania4295]

As someone who has all supports at 90 and mains tanks/healers and played this game for over 10 years - If they are not comfortable they better start being comfortable. There is barely any damage nowadays in dungeons because Square Penis tanked the difficulty to braindead level. If they refuse i leave the dungeon - I'd rather take the 30 min lockout that deal with idiots. I don't care they are new. As the toxic casuls of this game love to say - you don't pay my sub. I'm not here for you as an NPC to fcking serve you. Play the game as it's expected, learn - or fck off.

[@Namingway248]

Ultimately if your tank/healer isn't comfortable with big pulls, the time that gets spent rezzing or wiping in random places is going to make wall-to-wall way less efficient anyway, there's no reason to force the issue imo.

[@KawaiiDespair]

I really wanted to try xeems method of dying and ressing at start but we ran out of time :( lol

[@penultimania4295]

If they are not comfortable they better start being comfortable. There is barely any damage nowadays in dungeons because Square Penis tanked the difficulty to braindead level. If they refuse i leave the dungeon - I'd rather take the 30 min lockout that deal with idiots.

[@godqueensadie]

Is it faster? Yes. Does it matter? No? In the grand scheme of things an extra 2-3 minutes in a dungeon does not matter. Not everyone is going at full efficiency 100% of the time. As a Tank sometimes I just don't want the stress of a tough Wall2Wall, especially with randoms, and as a Healer it can be nice when a Tank only pulls like 1/3rd or Half of a full w2w and I don't have to pay attention to their health much. At the end of the day it's a collective toy we're playing with, and arguing and getting salty that not everyone is playing with the toy as efficiently as you is silly.

[@KawaiiDespair]

Yeah. While playing better is more preferred then playing worse. we can only work on ourselves, so getting angy at stuff you have no control over is silly. :D