Reaction to Jonathan Pageau's Comments on Copts-Fr. Gabriel Wissa

[@brandonm.6604]

I am Eastern Orthodox and I have been subscribed to this channel for a long time. I want all of you to know I love you and I literally pray every day that we come back together.

[@CopticOrthodoxAnswers]

Thank you Brandon for the positive feedback. And yes, we feel the same!

[@loulasher]

I'm Catholic and also agree. Our unity is sorely lacking in a world that so obviously needs Christ.

[@andys3035]

As a Greek Orthodox, union with the Oriental Orthodox should be prioritized over union with Rome. We have more in common.

[@CopticOrthodoxAnswers]

Amen

[@thesampo]

May God bring all the Orthodox into communion.

[@CopticOrthodoxAnswers]

Amen

[@BarRafiSimon]

Thank you, Abuna! 😇 I'm a convert from Protestantism to the Orthodox Church (Coptic). When i first began looking to the East, I was under the mistaken impression that EO and OO were basically the same. Yet when I began to study Ephesus 431 and Chalcedon, I realized the Oriental Orthodox were right at along. Christology is important because it safeguards a proper understanding of our Lord and how His Incarnation saves us. I respect Pageau and enjoy much of his talks on Symbolism. In fact, I would expect him to think EO has a greater fulness just like I believe OO has a greater fullness, otherwise I would've have converted. Unfortunately our differences seem to have only grown since 451. I pray for unity too, but not at the downplaying of our very important differences. There cannot be 2 or 3 different orthodox (correct) theologies when Ephesus 431 was very clear. Please continue to do videos on this. I know many Orthodox laity who are hungery for this and aren't satisfied with the "it was all a misunderstanding" or "we're saying the same thing, we just didn't know it until 50 years ago" kind of responses. 😇🙏🙏🙏

[@CopticOrthodoxAnswers]

Beloved @BarRafiSimon, it is so refreshing to see people like you who are willing to follow Christ to the end of the world regardless of where it may lead them. I cannot but applaud and encourage such behavior. Pray for me dear as I pray for you

[@dioscoros]

This is a great video Abouna, thank you for putting this together. I hope the heterodox groups can put their deviations aside and join Christ's Church without all of the Chalcedonian problems. Time and God's grace will tell.

[@CopticOrthodoxAnswers]

Unity without love is impossible dear...

[@dioscoros]

@@CopticOrthodoxAnswers thank you Abouna. This for sure is true. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that unity with a false idea of love is equally impossible, and this I'd say from personal experience. As a former Chalcedonian, there were some Orthodox who respectfully informed me that my faith was heretical, that I was outside of the Church of Christ, and they were able to back it up with sources from the pre-schism Holy Fathers/the Council of Ephesus. Silly me, for a long time I ignored the clear statements from the Fathers condemning the faiths of the petulant Leo/Maximus/Damascene and remained in that mire under the guise that "our Christologies are actually the same, and there is no need for me to become Oriental Orthodox for my salvation." I took refuge in the people who I THOUGHT were truly loving me, who said just this sort of thing. But, looking back I saw that the whole time the problem wasn't with the people who respectfully told me that there is no sacramental grace outside of the Oriental Orthodox Church. Indeed, those were the people who loved me and sought the only true unity that can happen - my conversion into the Church of Christ. The problem was actually with the people who wanted to paint the Oriental Orthodox Church under the Protestant invention of "branch theory" that Christ's mystical body (the Church) can be divided into many communions/natures, rather than being One, Only, Holy communion of bishops. Needless to say, I pray that the day comes when all of the Chalcedonians convert, just like our examples of Sts Acacius and Anthimus of Constantinople, St Elijah of Antioch, and others who boldly renounced their old faiths and entered the Church.

[@beyondbaykar]

Greetings from an Armenian who born and raised in Türkiye. May God have mercy on us for focusing on the conflicts born out of limited capacity of our human understanding and lead us to unite on His Cross

[@CopticOrthodoxAnswers]

We need to pray for unity indeed!

[@orthoarmenian]

God bless you Abouna. It is great to see honest, yet temperate Orthodox that can land on either side of the aisle, yet still engage with humility and sincerity. I hope to see a discussion between you and Jonathan in the future. Thank you for the great content, you are an inspiration to your community. -Anne from the Armenian Apostolic Church

[@CopticOrthodoxAnswers]

Thank you dear for your kind words. Pray for this ministry. We need it.

[@ronin8898]

Union is what our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ demands of us. EO and OO Bishops need to prioritize this issue.

[@CopticOrthodoxAnswers]

Pray for us

[@nickdavila94]

I was baptized in the Greek Orthodox Church and I have attended the Divine Liturgy at my local Coptic Church. I feel that the Copts are my brothers in Christ. I felt right at home praying with them. Lord forgive me, I even feel that the Copts Christology makes more sense. Who am I but a sinner. One of the many reasons I chose Moses the Black as my patron is that he is venerated in both churches. May the Lord guide us to unity. Glory to God!

[@CopticOrthodoxAnswers]

Amen dear… so refreshing to see such positive understanding!

[@kidus_1010]

Thank you for this video Abouna. It’s great that you have used this platform to educate the public on the official Oriental Orthodox stance. Unfortunately many online EOs, (Not Jonathan Pageau) have taken it upon themselves to slander us with videos claiming to “debunk Oriental Orthodoxy” so it’s very uplifting that you are being firm in defending the truth of Orthodoxy that has been passed down from the apostles through St. Cyril, St. Dioscorus, and St. Severus.

[@CopticOrthodoxAnswers]

God bless you dear @kidus_1010, please pray for this ministry

[@Biniam_Hailu]

I have been watching videos of Eastern Orthodox churches, like @fatherspyridon. I think there is no closer church to us than Eastern Orthodox. Although we have differences, they are our close friends. They/we should focus on unity not division. From Ethiopia 🙋‍♂️

[@CopticOrthodoxAnswers]

Well said!

[@MrPeterFranc]

Thank you Abuna! Great great video 🥰

[@CopticOrthodoxAnswers]

Glad you liked it!!

[@copticconcept]

God bless you Abouna! We truly admire your work, and you have clarified and helped so many people in so many things. We would love more content like this. We need to defend our Oriental Orthodox faith, as you demonstrated here. There are unfortunately many false claims about Our Holy Church online. If one were to even search or inquire our Church on KZbin, there will be videos that attribute false statements and information about us. May God Grant us His peace and His truth in all that we do, and May He give us understanding to protect Our Orthodox Faith. Pray for us all 🙏

[@CopticOrthodoxAnswers]

Thank you dear for your nice comment… i do need your prayers. I believe God is in control and love covers a multitude of sins. Pray for me

[@FaithfulComforter]

EO but I pray we come back in Union through the grace of God. God bless you abouna and brother 🙏☦️❤️.

[@CopticOrthodoxAnswers]

Amen!

[@corneliusoswald6139]

Father gabriel, i hope you will appear on jordan peterson channel or patrick bed david channel to explain to the world , the faith , liturgy& practice of coptic orthodox church & how faith of coptic orthodox church encompass essence of seven councils that being agreed upon by eastern orthodox....

[@CopticOrthodoxAnswers]

Dear @corneliussoswald6139, God will make His Church to be known. We can count on that. Pray for this ministry, we need it.

[@Pdstor]

As a snarky little side, Abouna, so many of those in some degree against the Orientals have a deep admiration for Fr. Lazarus El Anthony!!! How many steps on his journey could've been mine, a recovered antitheist with a PhD and professorship as well! A Coptic Priest, one who I think is actually British of birth, once told me something of our getting together to hash out our deep but (in my lowly opinion) resolvable differences. He said the lack is due to just plain laziness and commitment to national pride on the part of both of our leaders. I do not know how much of that is true at risk of slandering our Church leaders (with a Schrodinger's capital C there). Nonetheless pray everyday the hard work gets done soon.

[@CopticOrthodoxAnswers]

I can’t comment on the reasons but I am sure none of them are good. Even the reason of the respective saints in each tradition shouldn’t keep Christ’s Body broken.

[@granthillman4998]

God bless you Abouna. I’m from the Armenian Church and I’ve enjoyed your videos for years. Unfortunately, comments like this from Jonathan are just the tip of the iceberg. We Oriental Orthodox need to realize together that in this current age, the Eastern so-called “Orthodox” are not our friends. What Jonathan said about us here is actually CHARITABLE compared to the vile slander many in his church say about us on a daily basis.

[@CopticOrthodoxAnswers]

Dear Grant, thank you for your nice comment. I need your prayers. I know that some Eastern Orthodox opinions of us are quite out there but you are right that Jonathan’s comments were quite charitable. Regardless, our reaction should always be towards unity in faith in love. If we fail to do so, we fail to have a proper Christian attitude. God bless you

[@cbasallie]

Jonathan Pageau claims that he had a “spiritual “ awakening in College. He said he was a broke student who couldn’t sell his art. Suddenly, he realized he could paint and sell orthodox icons while, , coincidentally, god reached down and convinced him to become an Orthodox Christian. Thank you very much Father, for this very beautiful video.

[@CATACOMB_TOC]

Eastern Orthodox believe in two natures and two wills .

[@dioscoros]

That is very unfortunate, pray for them to repent and join the Church of Christ. The Council of Ephesus condemns those who make Christ into a duality of any kind.

[@CopticOrthodoxAnswers]

Let us always have a spirit of unity founded on the correct faith and looking forward. If we don't, then we will not have the mind of Christ. God bless you

[@BeALearnerAlways]

Greetings father. Just wanted to ask something. It's pretty unrelated though. Why does the Oriental church use Byzantine icons while the reverse case doesn’t happen? Like why don't we just use icons of churches in our communion? Do let me know your thoughts!

[@kevinseptian5020]

Good content Abouna. ❤

[@CopticOrthodoxAnswers]

Thank you dear!

[@GGME7777]

Unfortunately, Rime started all this mess in the 4th century and here we are now

[@CopticOrthodoxAnswers]

Humility is a must in the Church. I will start with myself.

[@corneliusoswald6139]

Father Gabriel, i think you are best person who can alleviate this polemic between eastern and oriental. Even with assyrian church of the east. You like every coptic orthodox people certainly admit eastern orthodox and assyrian church of the east are much closer to coptic orthodox. I wish you can dialogue directly with eastern orthodox priest and assyrian church of the east priest....

[@CopticOrthodoxAnswers]

I doubt that… there are many better than me. Pray for this ministry

[@homelesbillionaire]

Hello does Coptic church give communion during Lent?

[@CopticOrthodoxAnswers]

Yes we do... with the exception of holy week where we only have one liturgy

[@danielandrew201]

Greetings Fr., Glory to God, and thank you for the edifying KZbin content. Is there really a dogmatic theological difference between the Eastern and Oriental Churches? After 1500 years of history, I know that we are still not officially in communion - for reasons that may be complicated - and, that some maintain till this day - per the original cause of the 'schism' - that there is indeed a difference in the Christology of 'miaphysitism' and 'dyophysitism'...Still, there are other Orthodox faithful, Church fathers, who believe that there is no substantial difference - that miaphysitism and dyophysitism are not actually a contradiction, when properly understood as the terms were perhaps intended. A late 20th century Orthodox joint commission conference produced 'agreed statements' - the Church fathers expressing full agreement regarding the Christological dogma, finding 'the same truth expressed'. In his article 'St. Cyril of Alexandria's Miaphysite Christology and Chalcedonian Dyophysitism', Fr. John McGuckin explores how these terms can correctly coexist... So again - is there really a dogmatic difference between the two Orthodox Churches - Eastern and Oriental? - both 'sides' confessing the one holy Catholic Apostolic Church....(?)

[@CopticOrthodoxAnswers]

From a dogmatic perspective, I don’t see any current differences other than the WAY we arrive to the same conclusion.

[@danielandrew201]

​​​​@@CopticOrthodoxAnswers Father, Thank you kindly for your reply. I would like to ask if yourself or Fr. Anthony perhaps have an email address, to have further dialogue, correspondence about this topic..? I have a few specific questions that relate personally to my family dynamic...Thank you.

[@MichaelK.-xl2qk]

This seems consistent with my personal observations from reading Church history, that the choice to engage in schism over what are essentially semantics and subtle shades of meaning on terms which are generally agreed, points to the fundamentally political and cultural nature of the split. The two sides were alienating from one another due to a lack of love already present in Christian society, and the theological arguments are mere pretexts to justify the antipathy arising from the flesh and blood. It is not possible for me to justify either side if this is the case. I am a convert to Greek Orthodoxy, which I believe. But I find Greeks almost impossible to deal with, and maybe the Arabs do too. In any case, the schism opened the door to Islamic heresy to destroy the largest part of the Church in Africa and Asia, proving not that the Copts were wrong, but that they were sacrificed in the process of maintaining Greek supremacy in Church politics.

[@CopticOrthodoxAnswers]

We hope for a brighter future and for a more united and stronger Church. God bless you

[@MichaelK.-xl2qk]

@@CopticOrthodoxAnswers I hope for the return of HIH Selassie to a united Ethiopia, with peace and justice for all.

[@George-ur8ow]

I am Greek by blood. I am EO and attend an EO Antiochian Parish that is majority Arab. Forgive us, we Hellenes can be a very prideful people. At the same time, I ask that you not be too married to the thoughts you have expressed here. These thoughts are not unreasonable, but they are unprovable. How and why history has played out in the manner it has is a mystery, and it is not a small one. "Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who has known the mind of the Lord? or who has been His Counseller?" Romans 11:34-35

[@MichaelK.-xl2qk]

@@George-ur8ow That's quite reasonable, and I am only speculating.

[@sesomyort]

Unfortunately, Chalcedon was rife with Nestorian theology, as evident in Pope Leo's Tome and the _Three Chapters_ of Ibas which they later condemned in Constantinople 553. It is time for them to fess up and repent of the scandal of Chalcedon so that we may be healed.

[@CopticOrthodoxAnswers]

Let us always have a spirit of unity founded on the correct faith and looking forward. If we don't, then we will not have the mind of Christ. God bless you

[@findlife7838]

@@CopticOrthodoxAnswersthe final conclusion of the Joint Commission Agreed Statements is Miaphysis (Ecumenical Council of Ephesus) because ‘In Theoria’ is properly applied. Moreover, ‘Dyophytism’ is actually condemned explicitly in the Ecumenical Council of Ephesus by St. Cyril of Alexandria, St. Celestine of Rome (legates), St. Bishop Theodotus of Anchyra, St. Bishop Acacius of Meletine and the entire Ecumenical Council. There is no way around it or tight roping this. Why have the Chalcedonians rejected the Joint Commission is the real question and places them squarely in a suspect position.

[@JamesR-f9l]

Although I admire Orientals, Christological issues are particurally important so I can respect why Orthodoxy wishes to resolve these differences instead of accepting a foreign doctrine of Ecumenicalism. It would be interesting if there was a debate between a respectable Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox. Going to Eastern Orthodoxy from Protestantism I had to navigate Oriental Churches, Assyrian Church of the East, as well as GOC as they all claim be Orthodox. My conviction is that EOC is the only Church compatible with Theosis which is confirmation which hints at the correct Christological formula.

[@CopticOrthodoxAnswers]

Thank you for your comment. We do agree that faith is essential and ecumenism based on a foreign faith doesn’t work. But there’s already an agreement between both Orthodox groups on Christology written in 1990. There has also been many discussions since then. Also, Oriental Orthodox believe that we are meant to become in the likeness of God (theosis). This is the ultimate purpose of a Christian. Unfortunately, too many have been told that Orientals are monophysites and ppl just believe it without doing an ounce of research. We hope that the future is brighter…

[@MinaDKSBMSB]

Do you know the Palamas version of theosis? The Oriental Orthodox believe in theosis/deification/sanctification as St. Athanasius and St. Basil taught but certainly not in apotheosis. Palamas, whose apotheosis dogma the EO fully accept, believe that we become like God to the extent that we become unoriginate. For us, this is akin to the sin of Satan in Isaiah 14. As St. Basil teaches, "we partake of the divine nature so much as our human nature allows." St. Athanasius tells us the same.

[@JamesR-f9l]

@@MinaDKSBMSB Eastern Orthodoxy recognizes thr essence/energy distinction so the incarnation allows us to become gods by grace or energy not by essence which is impossible. The burning bush is a clear example of this. This is the importance of Christ being fully man and fully God in that he was able to participate fully in the human experience and sanctify it is as the second Adam. In Christ, the Divine is fully superimposed and intertwined in His humanity and inseperable but both natures human and Divine exist and are not some other thing such that Christ is the perfect mediator between God and man.

[@MinaDKSBMSB]

@@JamesR-f9l Christologically speaking, how does the miaphysis Christology not accomplish that? And regardless, are you in acceptance of this unoriginate dogma?

[@JamesR-f9l]

@@MinaDKSBMSB I believe unoriginate is without beginning. Eastern Orthodoxy does not hold to this instead we believe grace to be an uncreated energy of God which we can fully participate in transforming us into an icon of the prototype Christ. This book covers Theosis and the essence/energy distinction thoroughly kzbin.info/www/bejne/hZCcgoiCqs9rgtEsi=H2q0Y3jFHchMBXs_

[@homelesbillionaire]

chose good.... bro that literally means christ AKA GOD had the potency to sin. how is this not heretical???

[@CopticOrthodoxAnswers]

It’s actually not heretical at all… it doesn’t mean that God had the potency to sin either. That would never happen since His humanity is united with His divinity and therefore His ultimate will is always one which will always be sinless. But if we would theoretically speak about his human will only, He needs to have a free human will that He submits to the Divine one so he can heal our own human will. What do you think happened in Gethsemane when Christ says to the Father according to Your will and not Mine?

[@findlife7838]

Luke 22:42, Matt 26:39 All through the Divine Economy of Salvation…our Lord laid down His life by His own will and authority and took it back by His own will and authority subjecting Himself to all things on our behalf and for our Salvation. In summery, the Universal pre-schism Fathers (Alexandrian fathers: St. Athansius, St. Cyril, Cappadocians. Syriac Fathers, Early latin fathers) teach that: -The prayer at Gethsemane is ‘Internal communion’ within the Holy Trinity. This internal communication is always in perfect harmony and perfectly unified in Gods will to save humanity and in all things. This internal deliberation within the Holy Trinity was permitted for us to witness externally so that the love of God for us in saving us might be known for it was Gods will to save us. -‘Will’ is properly understood as: Personal Will and Natural Will. Thus, our Lord personally willed to save us/endure suffering unto death and also Naturally willed not to suffer as no true human would desire to suffer but at the same time He personally willed to redeem humanity as there was no other way but death to restore life. He willed and unwilled at the same time to suffer and die on the Cross as He is truly the Incarnate Logos. His Will is one and the same from the very moment of conception/Incarnation. -Thus, the prayer at Gethsemane was to Naturally express human aversion to suffering but in the same moment He willed it/is determined out of love to endure it for our salvation fulfilling all what was required (fulfill sentence of death, mediate, Offer perfect obedience/intercession, redeem etc…) from the fall of Adam at the beginning. He was truly Incarnate without change and became Man perfectly except for sin. He willingly offered His life and took it back by His own authority subjecting Himself to all things for our sake, on our behalf and for our salvation. -The prayer at Gethsemane is to teach us (exemplified in Himself) to pray and align our will with God in our own weakness and adversity. -The prayer at Gethsemane reveals the will of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit is always the same. The Son knows this “cup” will not pass as it was for this very purpose that the Good Father sent the Son through the Holy Spirit. Salvation is the work of the Holy Trinity. This prayer confirms Jesus Christ the Son of God offered perfect obedience to the Father on our behalf and for our salvation. -The prayer at Gethsemane was necessary to declare His innocence yet despite this He voluntary willed to suffer, die and rise for our salvation. In declaring His innocence God is justified when He justly judges the Jews and soldiers who arrested Him in the day of Final Judgement as their blood will even be upon their children for crucifying the Lord of Glory.

[@findlife7838]

@@CopticOrthodoxAnswers St. Cyril of Alexandria explains how ‘in Theoria’ (conceptualizing) one may err by conceptualizing too far as to dissolve the Natural Union which took place at the Incarnation. This means St. Cyril places rules and limitations when ‘in Theoria’ is applied. There is an Orthodox and unorthodox ‘in Theoria’. It depends on nuance, wording and emphasis. Uniqueness of Properties, yes. Numerical Multiplicity of Natures, no.

[@dp34576]

God bless the Orthobros, but their tendency to substitute online apologetics for real theology is despicable. I'd blame the Greek/Slavic mindset, but they're all 2020 converts from Evangelical protestantism larping as enlightened bc they finally have apostolic succession

[@dp34576]

And for the record, I'm not dissing the EO overall, just the anti-intellectualism that has permuted the American jurisdictions recently. Lossky, Zizioulas, Bulgakov, and others I may disagree with, but they're thorough and gentlemanly representatives of their Church - true men of Christ, regardless of our theological differences.

[@CopticOrthodoxAnswers]

Thank you for chiming in... God bless

[@BarbaPamino]

​@dp34576 what exactly is the Greek mindset? And why is it equated to the slavic mindset? A Peloponnesian is has a different mindset than an Attican, or a Cretan. Certainly nothing like a Croatian. I don't see the cultural mindset differences or similarities any more present in a Serbian from a Greek than from a Palestian Orthodox. From what I understand our side can't accept than any divine aspect of Christ died on the cross. So it had to be that his human nature was distinct from his divine nature.

[@Troy-Moses]

@@BarbaPamino *_"Our side can't accept than any divine aspect of Christ died on the cross. So it had to be that his human nature was distinct from his divine nature."_* Which of the distinct natures is the Christian grafted into?

[@mumak333]

@@BarbaPamino The Son is the Logos is God=The Word of God is Jesus Christ= The One Logos of God made flesh truly died on the cross & trampled death by death. This can only be done with true union, no mixture, no confusion nor separation, fully human, fully divine. The One Infleshed Word of God

[@Roman-Pregolin]

EO chauvinism toward OO is super cringe and un Christ like.

[@CopticOrthodoxAnswers]

Agreed but we have to admit that this is not necessarily what happened here. Jonathan is open minded I would believe.

[@Roman-Pregolin]

@@CopticOrthodoxAnswersYes. But as an ROC member researching this I see too much disrespect from even famous writers. if you don't mind, I have a couple questions. Do Copts have other prayer books besides the Agpeya? It's great, but there are so many prayers of Sts Ephrem, Basil, etc not in there. Do you have a tradition like Russian Stranniki, wandering spiritual laymen, like pilgrims with no geographical goal? In the 18th century, Russian monasteries owned serfs tied to the monastic lands. It bothers me that this is not openly addressed as wrong. Mistreatment of ''church serfs" caused a few peasant revolts. I imagine a monastery requires some support of laymen, and we don't always treat each other as well as we should, but is there any analogue in Coptic history? Or how did monasteries receive support?

[@societydisliker2333]

​@Roman-Pregolin we do not have a similar modern concept to laymen who are wandering, but we did have wandering hermits I don't think we ever had anything similar to that serf system in the Coptic church, as far as I'm aware, only monks and volunteers work on the land.

[@GGME7777]

* Rome

[@WilliamCarterII]

I mean I am myself Coptic but not political conservative by any stretch of the imagination. I have heard Pageau's comments before on other topics and the man just seems like a more sedated Jordan Peterson (but with fewer books) I cant think of a single thing he has said that is useful, thought provoking or even smart

[@dp34576]

I'm conservative but not Copt/Oriental - you're spot on

[@BarRafiSimon]

Jordan Peterson is a classical liberal. Pagaeu is more of a traditionalist politically, as far I understand.

[@CopticOrthodoxAnswers]

They are both great resources

[@CopticOrthodoxAnswers]

He does have some good things to say I would think