What If Religion Maximises Wellbeing? - Sam Harris

[@CosmicSkeptic]

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[@polyspastos]

hey @CosmicSkeptic, doing piecemeal content, especially prerolling for three days is dishonest as fc*k, and deteriorates goodwill. well, if you need low quality people, then i guess, yay for audience capture! you lost me, though

[@AnonymousWon-uu5yn]

Not having kids maximizes well being. No life = no suffering.

[@crabb9966]

@@AnonymousWon-uu5yn what happened to evolution?

[@AnonymousWon-uu5yn]

@@crabb9966 evolution is still going on. Why do you ask?

[@billwalton4571]

If we are soulless then it would be stupid to do 'moral good' whatever that would be. It is those that take advantage of others that are smart in that case.

[@truthbetold8233]

I don't think it's limited to community. I think the actual beliefs provide people some level of order in a sea of chaos. It gives them a structure to calm their minds. I imagine the idea of a loving ruling force is inherently calming IF you can sincerely believe in the idea. I'm an Atheist, so I'm fundamentally unconvinced by the claim of a deity but I can easily understand how it can potentially structure or order reality and in doing so provide some level of comfort.

[@truthbetold8233]

Just to elaborate - Because I don't think you can reliably argue unconvinced people into believing, the question effectively becomes 'should we indoctrinate kids into religion, if religion is reliably shown to increase well being?' I think there is probably a good enough argument against deliberate deception. That an uncomfortable truth might still be preferable to a comforting lie, but I guess there's a lot of grey area.

[@kangaroomax8198]

Agreed. Churches tell people their decisions mean something, that morality matters, that the creator loves them so much they’d die for them, that there is objective good and bad, and that following the rules has a real, powerful outcome. To believe it’s only community is absurd. It’s the beliefs themselves.

[@AlmightyFSM]

I think this is generally true. Confusion about the nature of the universe ("God" made it), fear of death (eternal life), and pain of lost ones (you'll see them in heaven) are the bedrock of faith that almost all religious people, I suspect, struggle to let go. I'd be willing to wager many religious folks would give up all the other things (the weird songs, the funny hats and the bizarre rules) if they could still hold on to those three things. The biggest problem that a non-religious proposition presents is that it can't provide a satisfactory answer to these deep, deep concerns. "We don't know what before the big bang even means", "Nothing happens after you die", and "make the most of it now because it's all you'll get", are catastrophically unsatisfying for most religious folks. I mean... they're unsatisfying to me too, but I'm aware that these are the best answers we currently have.

[@kangaroomax8198]

@@AlmightyFSM It's not just the religious folks that those answers are unsatisfying for, it is the VAST majority of the world. Atheists are usually educated, scientifically literate, thoughtful, and introspective. The New Atheists and their early supporters were scientists and mathematicians. The flaw of these people was believing that everyone else in the world was like them. Most average people are just trying to get through the day. They don't have the time, space, or intelligence to consider their grand purpose, to ponder the value of life in a disteological universe - they raise their family and contribute to society because it's what they 'should' do. And in the West, that 'should' is primarily based on Christian ethics. That purpose has to be ground into people's brains every single day. It needs to be an ever-present reminder, or else there is literally nothing preventing someone from slipping into hedonism and self-serving behavior at the expense of the community. China did this with Communism, Japan did it with Bushido, the West did it with Christianity. Atheists don't have that. They have nothing. Sam Harris and others have realized they have created an enormous lack of purpose for most people, and in that void is only darkness and depravity. It's why he's trying so desperately to make 'objective morality' into a real concept - so we can teach morals as if they were scientific facts. But he is undone by his own skepticism.

[@Blobbybobbyboy]

I think ritual structures are a great example of this. In ritual, what matters is that people orient around some kind of higher- order framing, which can really be directed at anything. Some ritual cultures were quite violent and chaotic. Chinese ritual culture orients around the concept of 'propriety' or right way of doing. Other rituals orient around beliefs in gods, reverence to nature, myths etc. We need to be collectively engaged in some kind of value system outside of the material/individual framework, but this deosn't neceessarily have to be a religious framework.

[@MattCrawley_Music]

"Community" is the keyword here. People in religious communities are better because they are in community.

[@BeyonceStan95]

100% I cannot find a community that resembles church in a secular environment. An intergenerational group of people who (in the best circumstances) care about you and your wellbeing and check on you when they haven’t seen you in a couple weeks!? Yah it’s very helpful for the community part

[@Jd-808]

Yes, that’s what religions are

[@brianh9358]

I think that the concept of "community" could be expanded to include "positive social interaction". In the US we have obliterated just about every chance for that. Our cities are no longer walkable, everyone drives to and from home and remain isolated from their neighbors once they arrive at home, children don't play outside anymore, social clubs in small towns are dying or gone (my town use to have many - Civitans, Masons, Rotary Club, Kiwanis, American Legion, etc). I myself have joined a FreeThinkers group in my area, but we don't meet often enough. However, I don't think that religion is the only thing that can improve the sense of community. Many Scandinavian countries are considered the happiest in the world but religion has a lesser role. What they DO have is much stronger communities than we have in the US. I'll give you one example - I visited Iceland a few years back. I noticed one place where social interaction takes place are the natural hot baths. Everybody goes there and they talk to each other in this setting.

[@belgiumhr3524]

There are a lot of toxic "Communities' out there and a lot of those have some religious ground. Forced communities are not a good thing.

[@danielholder7979]

I agree that is part of the equation but speaking as a religious person my self the main joy of attending a religious service for me is not just that there is community there but that I actually experience God in those settings.

[@cod-the-creator]

The part where you say people go to church even when they don't want to is an important note. Think about how hard it is to get people to go to a birthday party for example - something that is almost always a blast. Getting people to put on clean pants and leave their house is really hard for some reason.

[@AndarManik]

When you take church out of many peoples lives, like my parents who have no kids at home, they wouldn’t have much of a reason to go out to meet people.

[@Hreodrich]

@@AndarManikI got to church weekly and I loathe meeting new people. It’s a duty the way I see it.

[@stephenzaccardelli5863]

I go to churches cathedrals and public houses when others die if the religion of your choice is heading to worse potentially then get out when you have the chance that's a free moral decision.

[@iamjwns6277]

@@Hreodrich yes

[@Brissles]

​@matthewphilip1977whose

[@jordanbabcock]

Alex is excellent at playing devil's advocate. I think this is because he is legitimately curious, and is honestly seeking the truth. He is able to steelman views that he doesn't hold himself (like religion in this case). You can tell a lot of commenters haven't listened to much of Alex or of Sam before seeing this clip. Alex is NOT religious and does not ACTUALLY want Sam to remove The Moral Landscape from publication lmao get a grip. He is just pushing Sam on these points so he can understand his position better!

[@judegrindvoll8467]

This is definitely a quirk of British interviewers - I think it stems from the BBC having to be fully impartial so we now just accept it as an excellent interview technique. I remember Ben Sharpiro being subjected to this by Andrew Neil and he stomped off set like a petulant child ranting about how biased and liberal Neil was (words to that effect) and of course Neil is known for being fairly conservative 😄 Alex did a great job here I think.

[@noorzanayasmin7806]

I think Alex has been on both side of the isle. It is easier to play devil advocate if you were on that side at one point

[@JohnnyTwoFingers]

I don't know of anyone that can practice login in realtime at the level Alex can, he is exceptional. He's deceitful sometimes, but I'm pretty sure he knows he's doing it, so I don't mind so much.

[@mindovermatter3328]

I agree, but I think it speaks more about the lack of integrity in Sam as a philosopher or seeker of wisdom. His attachment to his own judgment is ridiculous and glaringly obvious. I can't take his views seriously because of it

[@bastiaanvanbeek]

Alex's devil's advocate role is a sign of honesty. However, people must understand that it's a role and that it has a specific purpose. I saw him doing it in the case of Dawkins and Hitchens too. In the case of William Lane Craig it's better to be a real devil (figuratively speaking) though, because those types need to be tested more since they have a lower level of thinking.

[@Shawn-nq7du]

I’m Christian and I don’t dream about heaven. I’m too busy with what needs to be done on earth and how I can serve others.

[@jshauns]

In my thirties, I was drawn to secular humanism, influenced by Hitchens and Harris. Their arguments seemed compelling, but as I’ve grown older, I’ve realized their limitations. Life is more complex than any single ideology can capture. My views have evolved, reflecting the richness and nuance of human experience. This journey of learning and self-discovery continues, making life an ever-evolving process of growth and understanding.

[@flybefree]

It’s wonderful to be free of religious dogma and all its rules and limitations and able to swim in the vast lake of spiritual ideas.

[@charliekowittmusic]

This has been my experience as well. All people, of all beliefs, and places, enjoy the full spectrum of human experience. Christians have their own brand of intense joy, deep mourning, and experience of the profound. Muslims, Buddhists, southern whites, and Hindi people enjoy the richness of life in their own ways. And something else I’ve learned through psychology and interaction, is that we ALL hold irrational beliefs. Keeping to one ideology, or worse, embracing only the negation of an ideology, is to limit the richness and depth of your own life.

[@TheWanderingPensioner]

@@charliekowittmusic Are the women of Afghanistan enjoying the richness of experience in their own ways? Well, yes, if you include under the definition of richness ... richness in ways to suffer. In pursuit of richness of experience, should one seek out and embrace all the ways to live in pain and ignorance? Harris's point is that there is richness and there is poverty of experience, and we can discriminate between them, and it is sensible to seek out the peaks, rather than wallow in the valleys. And to your final point, to negate fascism is to limit "richness and depth of your own life"? What about negating cannibalism, as a way of life? Harris supports evaluating ideologies on the basis of their capacity to provide better or peak experiences of well-being, versus other ideologies. He does not advocate nihilism (which I think you are confusing with atheism).

[@Netomp51]

@@flybefreethe rules or limitations you are talking about are misleading the audience here, the highest spiritual mystics promise that those “limitations” are the actual discipline to become free… I invite you to read “The Spirit of the Disciplines”, you will increase in wisdom and if you try, you will experience real freedom..

[@charliekowittmusic]

@@TheWanderingPensioner Yes, every group of people also has their own claim to cruelty as well. I did say the FULL spectrum of human experience, didn’t I? Secondly, YES! Even fascists and cannibals teach us about what it means to be human! The Third Reich taught us how dark and horrific humans can be! I don’t get your point about the Taliban and Afghanistan. Did I say every ideology is good and enacted in a morally good way? That’s very, very silly of you. Lastly, I didn’t say anything about atheism, or nihilism, or Sam Harris. Did you mean to respond to somebody else? My point was that every group of humans endures life with all of the aspects we do: Monotony, joy, grace, despair, etc. and we can learn so much from each other.

[@BobbyFriston]

"When one loses the deep intimate relationship with nature, then temples, mosques and churches become important." J. Krishnamurti

[@dharmayogaashram979]

So too schools, sports arenas, business....Krishnamurthis comment very shall and selective.

[@IrishIwasJewish]

those are not the same@@dharmayogaashram979

[@BobbyFriston]

@@dharmayogaashram979 "If you have no relationship with nature, you have no relationship with man." J. Krishnamurti

[@cyberneticbutterfly8506]

Sounds like a patently untrue and unconvincing statement for anyone who isn't already in that camp.

[@BobbyFriston]

@@cyberneticbutterfly8506 Camping in nature ?

[@ShirleyTimple]

I mean, lying to yourself can be beneficial in some instances.

[@Jonas-gl9ke]

You just keep telling yourself that. 😂

[@MorbiusBlueBalls]

​@@Jonas-gl9kewhere is the funny

[@ShirleyTimple]

​@@Jonas-gl9keprove me wrong, then, champ. You're saying the placebo effect isn't real? You legitimately think that self delusion can't be beneficial in any way? Then prove it... I'll wait😅

[@Danila438]

​@@ShirleyTimple you should prove that lying to yourself is beneficial, not a person you saying it to should prove it otherwise

[@ShirleyTimple]

​@@Danila438you should probably read the words in front of you before commenting on them. The placebo effect was mentioned, and is a proven response to untruth being helpful. It's the belief in something that works, not the thing itself. Do you need further hand holding on this?

[@christhetanman2639]

I’ve listened to Sam Harris for years and he reminds me of a quote from CS Lewis: You cannot go on 'seeing through' things for ever. The whole point of seeing through something is to see something through it. It is good that the window should be transparent, because the street or garden beyond it is opaque. How if you saw through the garden too? It is no use trying to 'see through' first principles. If you see through everything, then everything is transparent. But a wholly transparent world is an invisible world. To 'see through' all things is the same as not to see. Sam seems to see “through” all of human experience in a way that leaves it devoid of wonder. Instead of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts, it becomes somehow less and that will NEVER lead to a secular community that can rival or even come close to that a religious community.

[@AlanDantes76]

There are hundreds, if not thousands of religious communities that have died out, along with the religions they practiced. There's no reason, absolutely none, to believe that our current religions will not share the same fate.

[@buglepong]

@@AlanDantes76 perhaps you could say the same for rational materialism

[@AlanDantes76]

@@buglepong Perhaps I could say that if my grandma had wheels should would have been a bike.

[@thomaspopescu9952]

​@AlanDantes76 That's like saying, "Many car companies have failed, therefore Ford will fail". Except Ford won't fail because their engines still facilitate combustion, their wheels still turn, and you can get from point A to B. It's the exact same as Christianity. It works, and so it will never fail, and nothing you say can prove otherwise because you're fighting against an 100% success rate.

[@AlanDantes76]

@@thomaspopescu9952 What a dumb ass comment, and a strawman. Ford was set to fail, as were most automakers years ago, but Obama bailed them out. Guess you missed that. Your mommy and daddy indoctrinated you into Christianity. It's sad you can't think for yourself. If you had grown up in Indonesia you'd be a different religion.

[@graemezimmerman109]

I agree with the lack of community in atheism and the benefits of church in that regard. I’ve been toying with the idea of starting an “agnostic church” with some friends; basically get together, have food/coffee, talk about life and literature. The goal is to have everything that organized religion offers in terms of community minus religious dogma

[@LightbulbTedbear2]

Clubs like that tend to have one or two awkward meetings and then peter out. To keep people coming back, you need them to be emotionally invested. In a church community, that comes from a shared belief. But it's very hard to generate an emotion in someone to the same extent that religion does.

[@mattb4494]

In England this kind of thing used to exist. We called it a pub.. people used to congregate almost daily after work to chat and drink together for about 3 hours before going home to bed. Now we have the screens

[@IrishIwasJewish]

secular states tried that, look at USSR or the n@zis, we need God!

[@myhatmygandhi6217]

This has happened in many places before and they tend to quickly fall apart. It also get's a lot of atheists/agnostics to question it because it's basically a religion in everything but name. Non-believers don't like doing things similar to what religious people do, they actively try to avoid it, hence why it's one of the reasons atheists find it so hard to create secular communties, they naturally become religious/spiritual-type spaces.

[@Soapandwater6]

Check out the Unitarian Universalist "church." I consider them to be an "agnostic church." They will meet those goals.

[@Jeremyramone]

His aversion to religion, in the sense usually attached to the term, was of the same kind with that of Lucretius: he regarded it with the feelings due not to a mere mental delusion, but to a great moral evil. He looked upon it as the greatest enemy of morality: first, by setting up factitious excellencies - belief in creeds, devotional feelings, and ceremonies, not connected with the good of human kind - and causing these to be accepted as substitutes for genuine virtue: but above all, by radically vitiating the standard of morals; making it consist in doing the will of a being, on whom it lavishes indeed all the phrases of adulation, but whom in sober truth it depicts as eminently hateful John Stuart Mill

[@tubsy.]

What do you mean by genuine virtue? 😂 The audacity for an Atheist to mock Christianity and yet pretend like they can still have objective morality.

[@ryanhenneberger2679]

@matthewphilip1977there sure is. it’s just not the abrahamic god accompanied with some delusional mythology from ignorant bronze age old men

[@McLovin201]

That's why atheists all have the same moral code. They're free from the "dogma" of religion. They never had any mass murder, preventable starvation, arbitrary "purification" of races etc 😅

[@bunny44489]

@matthewphilip1977why do you believe what you believe? As an agnostic, my outlook is without teaching. I didn’t come to believe anything. You were taught something, likely as a child, that formed your belief probably right? Not tryna be snarky btw

[@PriddyBoy1992]

Great questions Alex, as always.

[@petereames3041]

I recommend Robin Dunbar's book. How religion evolved and why it endures.

[@hokiturmix]

Uploading this as a playlist is another good way of presentation.

[@Wurldly]

I spent my entire life as an agnostic. Became a Christian a year ago. I know every atheist talking points and now the Christian/theist rebuttal. While alive, I feel now a lot happier and hopeful and the choices I’ve made with Christian morals have made me become a better person to those around me and noticed by even my atheist friends. So my faith is rewarding me while alive, even if wrong in the end. If my faith proves to be right then I’m further rewarded upon death.

[@Shawn-nq7du]

Amen! Happier now and forever. I’ve been Catholic for about 10 years now, and I’m immensely more happier. My life has meaning and purpose.

[@robertylonen1896]

Blissful ignorance is the best

[@Shawn-nq7du]

@@robertylonen1896 I think time is telling that blissful ignorance is not the best - all the so-called blissful freedoms of doing whatever you want, the sexual revolution, liberal feminism, hook-up culture, harmless pornography continues to have a devastating effect on the world. Try truth - God, based on faith and reason.

[@robertylonen1896]

In the context of religion, the concepts of truth and reason require careful consideration. Truth is generally understood as the correspondence between a statement or belief and objective reality. However, in the realm of religion, statements and beliefs are often not subject to empirical verification or objective measurement, nor is there any evidence for it. Reason, on the other hand, refers to the capacity for logical, rational, and analytical thought. When applied to religion, reason can be used to examine religious doctrines, rituals, and practices to determine their logical coherence and consistency. However, it is important to recognize that religious beliefs often transcend rational explanations and may be based on faith, intuition, or personal experience. Therefore, when interpreting the relationship between truth and reason in the context of religion, it is essential to consider both the objective and subjective dimensions of religious experience. While reason can provide valuable insights into the logical aspects of religion, it may not fully capture the deeper spiritual and emotional dimensions that are central to many religious traditions.

[@Shawn-nq7du]

​@@robertylonen1896 Empirical evidence is hardly the only source of truth. I would conjecture that the deepest truths are outside the realm of scientific experimentation. If you are limiting your discussion to objective truths, your statement above is correct. BOTH faith and reason are sources of authority for our beliefs. Faith includes reason, but it is beyond reason -- suprarational. Since God is not in any genus, both faith and reason are necessary components. He is not a being inside our world. As Thomas Aquinas succinctly said of God, "God is the subsistent act of being itself," where essence and existence coexist. Thus, it would be impossible for us to "prove" the existence or non-existence of God, but there are many rational statements one could make for their belief in God. Two books I highly recommend for the rational side are Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis and The Language of God by Francis Collins. Francis Collins was director of NIH for years, serving under three presidents. He is a Physician/Scientist who received a PhD from Yale and an MD from UNC before heading the Human Genome Project. He was an atheist, but after reading C.S. Lewis' book, which has converted so many, he wrote books on intelligent design and the rationality of a Creator. If you don't like to read, check him out on KZbin.

[@wread1982]

Alex you did an excellent job interviewing Samuel 💪🏽🙌🏽🫡

[@lifequotient]

This is a great question to pose to him

[@tonywallens217]

Maybe everything just isn’t about maximizing well-being, but it’s about being and doing what is true good and beautiful, regardless if it maximizes whatever your definition of “wellbeing” is

[@Netomp51]

What is true, good and beautiful?

[@tonywallens217]

@@Netomp51 what is true is that which conforms to reality, what is good is that in which perfection Is actual, and what is beautiful is that in which there is right proportion.

[@Netomp51]

@@tonywallens217 Focusing solely on what's true, good, and beautiful without considering well-being is like using a compass that always points to north when you're trying to find east-not wrong, but not the whole direction you need, also your definition of true, good and beautiful is lacking objectivity, I have a better response: Jesus Christ, he proclaimed to be the truth the way and the life, his teachings are the true good and beauty of life to maximize the well being.

[@tonywallens217]

@@Netomp51 what is true good and beautiful is ultimately God. So yeah I’m with you. But if I just say that in this comment section no one will take it seriously.

[@Shawn-nq7du]

Truth, beauty, and goodness are the transcendentals that lead one to God.

[@JMRBR]

Best ASMR video I’ve ever watched.

[@Satyr_allyn]

Believing that you have a sense of freedom/ autonomy certainly maximizes well being.

[@omp199]

What do you mean by "freedom"? What do you mean by "autonomy"?

[@mikehutton3937]

@@omp199 I think he's referring to free will , as opposed to determinism.

[@liberatesweden2404]

This is a good topic! ❤

[@hunter_lite]

Comfort more so than well being, at a serious cognitive cost.

[@experiencer-kk6xb]

I have lived an incredible life of spiritual experience and I hope spiritual growth. I've meditated 3 to 7 hours a day for over 25 years and I've experienced incredible things and have a state of consciousness that I don't know a single atheist that has. On my journey with people who believe in some kind of God, I've met many similarly devoted people who have attained very high states of consciousness. Some have attained the fullness of enlightenment. Not a single one of these people is an atheist. It's very hard to imagine a person devoting themselves to love who is an atheist in the same way that the religious people I have known do. Community is part of it, but it's the God that we all share that brings us together and it's the God that we all experience that is responsible for our awakenings. When asked about this phenomenon, Sam Harris seems to appeal to the future and a kind of faith that one day secular reality will/could produce the same results, but it hasn't and I don't think it ever will. Maybe if we get an atheist version of the Buddha with equal and profoundly deep consciousness that could happen, but I'm doubtful it ever will. Most of what Sam Harris uses for secular spirituality was borrowed from religion and would have never been discovered without it. His entire approach to secular spirituality seems to be borrowed mostly from Buddhism.... Sam Harris also seems to recognize some quite subtle and profound states that spirituality can produce, but he does also seem to reject the many miracles that sometimes come with those states of consciousness. Although rare and not under personal control I've known many people who have experienced them and I've experienced at least two in person. Miracles are a kind of proof that what we're dealing with is not just a state of consciousness, but it's a state of consciousness that can affect the physical world and affect other people's consciousness. Most deep seekers have experienced this kind of thing enough to know for a fact that there's something more than just our minds at play. For most people it would be a profound loss to not have experienced that and to not know it and would weaken everybody's commitment I think. I do not think secular spirituality can ever rise to the place that religion holds.

[@justinalvis4409]

Alex O’Connor is the most intellectually honest and sophisticated atheist/agnostic in the bunch.

[@30Salmao]

You got the words out of my mind. Exactly. Love this boy.

[@JohnnyTwoFingers]

Yep, I do not like 95% of atheists but Alex is great, so so smart.

[@ManGoatHamburger]

@@JohnnyTwoFingersyou’ve met them all?

[@chaisma]

May be bcs you are thiest,,,,its natural unconsciously you have bias​@@JohnnyTwoFingers

[@PARiderinHickory]

I really like your content Alex. Have you given any thought to sharing your thoughts on Buddhism and Daoism? I’d be very interested in your take on the value of these things amongst others, those just being used for example

[@krishnapartha]

Alex, brother, thank you for the good work and meaningful discussions… keep it up! I ask selfishly because your work has improved my well being!

[@oscargiovanniruiz8344]

"Sometimes people deserve to have their faith rewarded" - Batman

[@gorgzilla1712]

Honestly, I think the closest thing to what Sam talks about is Zen Buddhism. Has founders and saints, gets together a few times a week, has rituals and community, has a focus on the transcendent, features meditation and ethics, is focused on truth and not dogma, and is even willing to put metaphysical speculation aside to focus on the practical.

[@clemonsx90]

This is true, but once I started to get into Zen Buddhism, I realized that all of the great religions are actually quite similar, and that my rejection of Christianity was an inauthentic striving. Actual Buddhists pray for the dead and are open to a realm of religious experience that's foreign to the Western spiritual materialist who just wants to get high on his own supply. Invariably, I ended up becoming Christian, both because I saw Christ as the actual manifestation of the Tao and because I realized how important not being Christian was to me. Look up Seraphim Rose, who was a student of Alan Watts, but who later on became a Christian monk.

[@Archeidos-Arcana]

Every teaching or body of knowledge becomes dogmatic given enough time. My biggest issue with Sam's version of atheism is that it unfairly and erroneously attributes all the problems of doctrine to religious teachings and metaphysical philosophies themselves.

[@constantchange1145]

​@@clemonsx90 have you tried a Vipassana 10 day silent meditation course? I don't think anyone should be making their mind up about meditation and it's actual purpose or potential unless they've done one or two of those courses as taught by S.N Goenka. It's entirely Non sectarian. (Not bhuddist)

[@constantchange1145]

@@Archeidos-Arcana he doesn't attribute all problems due to those things. He simply highlights that progress is contigent on many factors including the rejection of dogma and un-scientific beliefs

[@susie4045]

Being introduced to most every religion out there, starting in my early childhood. I always went back to my practice of Buddhism, specifically the teaching of Nichiren Daishonin, chanting daily to elevate our life condition. It’s a truly humanistic practice. And there is so much support and community within the sgi organization. Main focus is world peace by doing our own human revolution.

[@veljkosimic2149]

I think it's not about religion, it's about collectivitist mindset. People tend to do better in supportive environment.

[@mark_tolver]

There was an Ohio University study in 2018 that found that those with religious beliefs had an average increase of life expectancy of about 4 years. Don’t know how credible the study was or if it’s been replicated but it’d be interesting to know what aspects of religious belief have a significant impact if accurate.

[@SOak145]

Its an interesting theory but it still wouldnt jsutify the actual religious belief itself.

[@mark_tolver]

@@SOak145 Does the fact that placebos have been shown to work justify the belief in the placebo effect?

[@SOak145]

@@mark_tolver Let's say that hypothetically, that religious people live longer on average. Does that occurrence in any way give a demonstration of any valid evidence, for any religious beliefs ? Or give any justification for religious beliefs ?

[@mark_tolver]

@@SOak145 It doesn’t provide evidence but it does provide a justification. If someone said to you, “Take this placebo pill, it’ll help you live on average 4 years longer” then you’d be justified in taking it. You can argue about the validity of any particular religious belief until you’re blue in the face, you can’t prove or disprove that belief one way or the other, however, if such a study was replicable and repeatedly showed that the effect of religious belief was to increase lifespan by an average of 4 years then that would have massive ethical implications for atheists. Would you try to convince a person to abandon their religious beliefs in favour of what you believe to be true if you believed that it was, on average, going to reduce their lifespan by four years if you were to convert them to atheism?🤷‍♂️ It’s certainly an interesting ethical quandary!

[@rawcopper604]

My father's biggest Mathematical breakthrough came to him in his dream. He is an atheist/agnostic, and I think he explains how this can take place very well. During REM, our brain goes through our memories/ experiences, and interprets them subconsciously, giving us a new perspective. It's as simple as that: our mind rummages through all of our information, and sometimes happens to combine it in just the right way.

[@Envi-jm8mi]

That's how some of the greatest musicians have made some of their pieces. Just because something was revealed in a dream doesn't necessarily mean anything more than that. It's just a dream.

[@brandonbooth826]

It is such a joy to listen to two very smart people converse. Just astonishing the range Harris has. And O'Connor is coming up fast.

[@cassif19]

I think that there are definitely things out there that provide us with social and persomal wellbeing better than religion does. But for many people, religion is the best tool they have access to for that purpose. Edit: I used the term "tool" to replace the term "technology" so that everyone can be happy ✌️

[@pnut3844able]

Technology??? 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@fordprefect1925]

He’s embodying sam harris with the weird vocab lol

[@cassif19]

Alright, let's use the term "tool" instead of "technology" so that we don't have to focus on semantics I'm really not that interested in 🤷

[@360.Tapestry]

such as.... ???

[@TikkunFiat]

Examples?

[@SoroushTorkian]

Nice video as always! :)

[@threestars2164]

Would any of these religions still exist if I went back in time and randomized the human population? Would Christianity still exist if I relocated the Jewish people to the Amazon? Without the specific cultural, historical, and social factors that contributed to the formation of all religions, I imagine they would be drastically altered, leading to the potential emergence of entirely different religious traditions or the absence of organized religions seen currently on this planet altogether. A much more important thought experiment instead of wellbeing I think.

[@giuffre714]

That is a great question. I think Roman gods would still be all the rage. 😀

[@hmb8801]

🎤I was once atheist due to Harris and others like him but i finally reverted back to faith of god and Islam.✊

[@islamvibe2]

alhamdullah 🎉 🎉

[@TaninshqDesai]

Why?

[@SalmanMalik-eo8uo]

Alhumdhulillah ❤️

[@MikkoRantalainen]

Could you elaborate a bit? What made you revert back?

[@hmb8801]

@@MikkoRantalainen I realize I need Faith and Hope and faith has this utility of providing purpose and meaning and morality to life .

[@writerblocks9553]

How does he measure wellbeing, and how do we measure how our actions harm the wellbeing of others?

[@koenigcochran]

I think he concedes, in a different part of the interview, that no one knows the right way to do this calculus

[@AshBowie]

First we have to start by acknowledging that well-being is the goal and thus requires a scientific methodology to study it. We've already started to establish this-check out the studies behind Positive Psychology to start. This domain of inquiry is in its infancy and Sam doesn't claim to have all the answers. He is only claiming that we need to start asking the questions.

[@somersetcace1]

It's a bit of a false correlation between `wellbeing` and religious communities. It's more about community and fellowship in general. That appears to be the common thread. Slightly different context, but it reminds me of a movie quote, _"in all our searching, the only thing we've found that makes the emptiness bearable... is each other."_ In my experience over 58 years, I've found that the more meaningful relationships I have, the richer my life is. Moreover, the more people I care about individually, the more I tend to care about people in general. Seems to be a natural consequence.

[@jacksonelmore6227]

All is Self, that’s why Christ said the first two commandments are most relevant because they demonstrate that All is Self, and embodying them is acknowledging Truth

[@stephenzaccardelli5863]

Is that consequential to yourself or religion?

[@somersetcace1]

@@stephenzaccardelli5863 I'm not entirely sure what you're asking here. Can you reword/clarify it? I just don't want to give an irrelevant answer.

[@drewmcmahon2629]

Wrong

[@somersetcace1]

@@drewmcmahon2629 Oh well, silly me. Thanks for the wise explanation. 🙄

[@pcnoad]

The problem is, we can't determine what story is the most beneficial to believe unless we know all the alternatives including the objective truth. So knowledge of the objective truth would still be important regardless. Also, who gets to make that determination? For me the truth is important. I'm not saying I would necessarily be able to handle learning the truth. However, assuming I'm ever presented with the opportunity, I think that should be my decision.

[@shredx81]

I suspect the positive benefit is one of placebo. People of faith are capable of deluding themselves into believing that god will make everything alright. No different to Ron Weasley winning Quidditch for Gryffindor after ‘believing’ he’d taken a luck potion.

[@pixboi]

Having belief in whatever, despite cold material circumstances, can be highly beneficial.

[@travisbloomfield303]

Placebo is denying God

[@jellslixcy6168]

There are many secular examples of community that are as useful as religious communities for mental and moral wellbeing. If you think about those that did badly / worse during COVID you get an idea of them- sport (watching and participating), art, music, exercise, reading. We do have secular versions of religious communities that share moralities and are mentally beneficial. People get together to go to music gigs, art shows, sports fixtures etc. it’s ridiculous to argue that these don’t have equivalency with religious get togethers. The morality may be different but no less important. Hearing your favourite band play your favourite song is transcendent, watching Djordevic score against Caen for Nantes is transcendent.

[@alspezial2747]

As someone who was an atheist for 20 years, i can say that even without comunity, live gets immeasurably easier when comming to believe in something. Believe provides comfort and certainty for the mind.

[@TonyLambregts]

For me, the only way to achieve any degree of certainty is through evidence. Wishful thinking provides me with no comfort. Delusion looks counterproductive to me.

[@tedarcher9120]

Why would you believe in Jewish zombies tho?

[@petereames3041]

And religious rituals enhance social bonding.

[@alspezial2747]

@TonyLambregts it might sound cringy, but finding the love of god is some sort of evidence. When you follow gods guidance, and everything just works out against all odds, i think you can call that evidence.

[@TheHuxleyAgnostic]

​@@alspezial2747 That sounds like you haven't read an ounce of history. And, why does Finland top the list of happiest countries, with only a third of the population saying they believe a god exists?

[@wzywg]

A sense of purpose and a sense of belonging. Clearly seen as better than reality.

[@joshuagonsalves3904]

I'd say going to the gym is better than church by a landslide.

[@KGchannel01]

Fascinating question to explore, thanks for digging in a bit! My uninformed guess is that the experience of enhanced wellbeing by religion depends on the individual; that it is true for many, and untrue for at least a significant minority. If so, to maximize wellbeing, it is important to give people options. A book undermining faith can be therapeutic to people for whom faith is not experienced positively, helping them let go and move on to something that works better for them. For people who experience faith as a wellbeing enhancing influence, it would still be important to educate them about the risks associated with various forms of belief, and teach critical thinking skills; so that they can better sift through the good and the bad of religion, and maximize the good. Anyway, just thinking out loud, this question (whether religion enhances wellbeing) is admittedly not something I've researched, outside of belonging to various online support groups for people whose religious beliefs have crumbled, and who are trying to find ways to move on.

[@rogeriopenna9014]

why go for witchcraft? A much simpler example is horoscopes and astrology! My horoscope told me I would not get COVID, so I relaxed and I didn´t. Simple eh? (just kidding)

[@equi]

"Is that the best way to do that better" uhh ok.. even if its not, its better than the currently known alternative. Just sounds like he doesnt want to admit that could be the case.

[@stevenlancestoll629]

The humanist community where I used to live has a weekly get together as well as book and movie discussion groups and talks. It depends where one lives.

[@MelFinehout]

And compare these people against Christians and see what happens. What the studies reveal is the community is important. Not the actual belief in a creator deity.

[@riverjustice]

You are meeting up for socialization and shared interest. Going to church is not for socialization, but to consciously get together to know there's something beyond yourself.

[@buglepong]

@@riverjustice id say churchers are 99% socialisation

[@MelFinehout]

@@riverjustice well, then have someone do the study. I’d update my hypothesis. This is my intuition based upon my experience and is possible to be wrong.

[@gsp3428]

humanist communites must suck.

[@davidmontoya6672]

If you ever wanted to learn how to have a good conversation. Watch every single one of Alex's videos. It's pleasing and chill to listen to them they are like lofi beats

[@user-soon300]

i love that

[@gavinriley5232]

It is not only community. Judaism teaches me that each and every action I take is in an effort to repair the world and bring heaven closer to earth. When I say a blessing over my food, when I put on tzitzis, when I put on tefillin, when I pray, when I give charity, etc. etc.. The fact that on even my worst day, when I feel I have accomplished nothing, or my plans are falling apart, I can look at the tzitzis hanging from my shirt and say to myself “I am bringing heaven down to earth by wearing these fringes.” Is immeasurably beneficial to mental health.

[@jarrichvdv]

As long as you can admit your wellbeing is being maximized by actively believing in foolery; then yes. It’s one or the other.

[@TheRaveJunkie]

It‘s a powerful delusion, yes

[@gavinriley5232]

@@jarrichvdv No. I believe to Torah to be absolute truth. The world being 5784 years old, the whole 9 yards. It is not possible to believe in something that you also think is “foolery”. You cannot hold a belief that you also believe to be false.

[@jarrichvdv]

@@gavinriley5232 I do respect your personal rights to hold these beliefs; but I cannot grasp (I tried) being a serious adult in the 21st century who still holds on to ancient relics and mythical books to find comfort; especially when the sole reason you hold these beliefs is because you just happened to be born in the country and family and culture you were born into. That in and of itself should immediately disqualify any legitimacy that we still grant to these belief systems. I am not trying to be disrespectful; I just really struggle trying to understand.

[@gavinriley5232]

@@jarrichvdv I was not born Jewish. I was not born in a Jewish community. I had never met a Jew until I was in college. And a proper Orthodox conversion (that I went through) is a years long process where the Rabbis are required by Halacha to discourage you. My family, while ultimately supportive of me overall, made sure to consistently remind me of the Holocaust and Pogroms. Until I went to Rabbinical Seminary where I met a few other converts, there was not a single human being that encouraged or promoted this to me. To be frank, there is no logical reason for belief. And I am more than willing to admit it. What ultimately drew me in was an internal innate need that I cannot explain. When I saw tefillin being wrapped, I simply needed to do it. When I saw the Torah, I simply needed to read it. When I saw the Talmud, I simply needed to study it. I am obviously not trying to convince you. I have no desire to do so. But the closest I have ever been able to get to explain how I feel (and the other converts I have spoken to seem to agree) is the following: Yes conversion was a choice. But it did not feel like one. In the same way as feeding you children is a choice that you make every single day, but ultimately you cannot choose anything else.

[@lowhat]

the phrase maximize wellbeing makes me gag. it betrays a misunderstanding of human nature.

[@MikkoRantalainen]

They were discussing theoretical concept of maximal well-being and about the question "What if religion maximizes wellbeing from the options that are available to humans right now?" - the underlying idea being that we know that religions are based on imaginary stuff that cannot be proven but it seems to lead to somewhat successful life. If we cannot know what parts of the religion are important, should we be teaching religious stuff to our children even though we know it's not real (that is, there's no god or heaven).

[@teampower7820]

I think of religion as a feeling of being connected to "the one", meaning you are not alone. Also community is big, as someone else mentioned. It does not exclude pursuing truth, logic or anything else. A positive aspect of Christianity is that it promotes self reflection and work on one self. All major religions probably do that but this is the one I'm most familiar with.

[@Shawn-nq7du]

Religion gives you the bookends of life - you know where you came from and you know where you’re going. Religion answers the soul’s deepest questions- why, instead of how. Without religion, you’re just floating and teetering around in life. Life with little meaning and purpose. I’ve been Catholic for almost 10 years and I’m far happier now than in the past. I’m content.

[@troyzieman7177]

I had to have a defibrillator procedure in the hospital. I was put under with Ketamine. I can assure you there is no religious or secular belief to emulate the experiance . You are totally conscious just completely unaware of the outside world. It was a disconnect from all external stimuli. A fascinating and wonderful experiance . You are not high , you are clear minded in a way you have never experienced before . I am not advocating it as a recreational experiance . I am just saying that of everything that can be thought, felt or experienced. Those moments I was under Ketamine, are a stand alone. There is no category to insert them in

[@LeoDas688]

Religion made sense when we didn't know about scientific facts, and we needed answers,it is no longer the case

[@tylere.8436]

Scientific facts like two genders?

[@cybersandoval]

some secular community gatherings: sporting events, fine arts down to amateur theater, local to national political action, professional cultures, conferences

[@TonyKeeh]

Lol imagine centering the core of your existence around one of these

[@jacksonelmore6227]

Those are all religious yet you call them secular Secularity may be their religion

[@aitismarka9483]

@@TonyKeeh What's that got to do with anything?

[@TonyKeeh]

@aitismarka9483 did you watch the video? I just mean in the context of centering a community around something transcendent...which Alex and Sam seem to agree is good.

[@aitismarka9483]

@@TonyKeeh To be brutally honest, I didn't. I was just browsing the comments. Anyway, I don't see why a community would need to be centered around something transcendent in order for it to increase the well-being of its members. Furthermore, I don't see what any of this has to do with the core of anyone's existence.

[@perfectdawah4535]

At the age of 25, i decided that God doesn't exist. That was because I didn't have the right knowledge. Many years later, I gained knowledge and realized that I was wrong, so I converted to Islam and I am very glad.

[@MikkoRantalainen]

What kind of knowledege did you gain to come to conclusion that Islam is the reality?

[@perfectdawah4535]

@MikkoRantalainen if you are interested, I can share it with you. I am releasing my book in a few days about my journey to Islam. If I should tell you shortly, I found the source of all the problems humanity is facing, and the solution was in Islam. The source is the jungle system rolling the planet, and the solution is equallity, which Islam recommends it.

[@SQ1316]

​@@perfectdawah4535 did you publish your book?

[@perfectdawah4535]

@SQ1316 hi. Thanks for asking. Yes, I have. It is called "Why Islam? A Journey from Doubt to Belief. "

[@perfectdawah4535]

@SQ1316 it is on Amazon. Please let me know what you think if you read it. 🙏🏻😊

[@AlmightyFSM]

Sam's response here feels undercooked. I think a far better argument would be something like: "There may very well be a marginal improvement in wellbeing, or at least a religious individual's perception of their personal wellbeing, but the goal shouldn't be an incremental improvement. I think we'd all agree that on a scale of 1 to 10, we're barely a 1 when it comes to creating a society which enables and actuates universal wellbeing, and what we're looking for is a pathway toward this. The problem with religion is not that it provides a fleeting, ephemeral hit of comfort, it's that it actively retards progress towards a much, much more long-term and difficult goal of universal wellbeing; and the best, likely only, pathway to that is via reasoned, rationale, and critical thinking which above all prioritizes intellectual and factual honesty about the nature of humanity and the universe in which we find ourselves."

[@Pheer777]

Not sure how we’re “barely a 1” on the scale

[@AlmightyFSM]

@@Pheer777 The poorest countries have a third of their population below the poverty line. Life expectancy in the worst countries is around 30 years less than the best countries, and for all of recorded history there hasn't been a single year without war. One can argue that universal well-being is not an important goal, but if it is, we're pretty bad at it.

[@Pheer777]

@@AlmightyFSM Sure but most relevant well-being metrics have been on nearly constant upward trajectories for decades, it’s very easy to miss that fact that billions have escaped poverty in that timeframe, and the world is becoming more wealthy with each passing year.

[@AlmightyFSM]

@@Pheer777 Fair point. We can amend my response and say, "barely a 3" then. Fortunately this doesn't really change anything in the spirit or substance of my point. Unless you're arguing that we're more like an 8 or a 9, in which case it's unlikely that debate would be resolved here.

[@AlmightyFSM]

@@Pheer777 Addendum.. an interesting side effect of your point is that all those improvements in wellbeing you mention, emerge from science, and essentially zero emerge from religion... so that's actually an interesting addition to the argument 🙂

[@lolersauresrex8837]

Every time I hear this guy talk I wonder why I ever thought Sam Harris was a formidable mind

[@paddleed6176]

Ok.

[@ericcurtis7176]

I never knew Ben stiller was so well spoken

[@MelFinehout]

Comparing someone with a religious practice and community against someone with no practice and not community is the problem. Find a group of people that gather for secular spirituality and meditate daily. Compare them against the Christians and see what happens.

[@Raphael4722]

That's hard to do. Even if you get a group of atheists to meet up, they are not going to have the same sense of comradery as a group of religious people will.

[@darbymori350]

Maybe replace secular spirituality with secular volunteering? Like a group that does river clean ups, birdwatching or Comic Con. Those are communities not based on religion, that promote relationships/social interaction.

[@mpeters99]

@@Raphael4722 and I think you hit the nail on the head. Is it even possible for a group of secularists to gather and discuss a topic that has as much meaning as God would amongst religious people. If the secularists can’t find the same amount of meaning in that group that makes the camaraderie to them that much more special, then it’s unlikely they will achieve the same wellbeing as churchgoers.

[@jacksonelmore6227]

If you gather together to meditate daily, you ARE Christians But you’d need not call yourself one

[@jacksonelmore6227]

@matthewphilip1977in our infinite multiverse all things are both possible and manifest; yet you say “no such thing”

[@hmoen]

Alex, please interview Francesca Stavrakopoulou.

[@charliekowittmusic]

Alex’s challenge to Sam’s Moral Landscape here is nothing short of genius. Sam is contradicting himself. Either “truth” is the primary moral axis. In which case, spreading untruth is immoral. Or “well-being” is the primary axis of morality. In which case, a lie that improves well-being is moral. You can’t say “Well-being is the objective measure of morality” and then reverse course when that well-being is a result of religious belief.

[@TheWanderingPensioner]

Where does Harris say that “truth” is the primary moral axis? Surely he is saying that well-being is capable of being evaluated (scientifically) and those situations that promote it are more moral than those that don't. Certainly he would assert that truth (aka scientific method in search of best explanations) is a more useful tool to investigate how we get to well-being than adherence to dogma. I'd imagine he would concede that religious belief can and does bring about well-being, and in a particular time and place may be the only viable mode, but that other modes of belief/experience also can promote well-being, and that we should explore alternate modes in search of peak modes. This reference to a primary moral axis sounds very categorical imperative-ish. Harris is clearly a consequences guy, not a deontologist guy ... or only to the extent that moral rules lead to good/better consequences.

[@Pietrosavr]

​@@TheWanderingPensionerYou don't have to be a genius to read between the lines... Sam definitely switched to "truth is the highest value" when he rejected the scientific data that religion provides more wellbeing.

[@TheGolfCommunity1]

What did he just waffle about, "is that the best way to that better" well if religious people do better, then it is the best way. The level of mental gymnastics with sam harris is beyond belief

[@MikkoRantalainen]

I think you missed the point. I interpreted that the point was that should we intentionally lie because it seems to work, even though we don't understand why it works?

[@orthochristos]

Sam Harris has become the living walking meme of idiocy

[@MattT-P]

How so? 🤔

[@thomaslodger7675]

​@@MattT-Pthe way he completely dismisses opposition with wild assertations and how he can't just stay consistent and say "yes, if lying maximizes wellbeing we should do that." Speaks Volume that he doesn't really believe what he's saying

[@partydean17]

Excellent clip

[@barryjb]

No matter the number or magnitude of the benefits of ignoring, trivializing or being too stupid to understand or value what is true; lies, untruths and fiction will never maximize wellbeing. The benefits of actually living in a world where the number one priority by far is trying to establish what is true far outweigh living in any alternate world. Furthermore, despite how stupid the world has been and currently is in so many ways, the only way things become irredeemable is if we get to a post-truth world where we are living in a way where what is true is no longer the most valued principle. Some people and corporations already operate in this way but it is not yet the majority. If it becomes the majority, it's game over.

[@BeccaYoley]

Couldn't agree more 💯

[@r34ct4]

Psychedelics can serve and reclaim its place as the religion and community that weve been without for thousands of years.

[@deegobooster]

The intrinsically (not extrinsic) religious overwhelmingly correlate positively with higher mental and social wellbeing. Sam’s skepticism is too late.

[@AlanDantes76]

Someone should tell the catholic church this.

[@FleeingAmoeba]

I heard a statistic that Nordic countries get the same benefits from religion as they practice christian rituals in large numbers, even though they are mostly atheist, suggesting belief is optional.

[@Tohlemiach]

"Hey Sam, it turns out religious people are happier. What now?" "Well, that might not be true, and if it is, there's a better way to be happier." Serious intellectual, btw. Objective thinker, btw.

[@pnut3844able]

Religious people aren't happier though.

[@silvastomp]

"Being deluded makes you happier" Shouldn't the objective in life try to align your views on what reality ACTUALLY is. While trying to maximise wellbeing of yourself and others. It just seems a no-brainier.

[@seriously58]

...turns out (some) religious people are happier, but also prone to attacking people who believe in another god or based on what their god tells them supress parts of their society. What now?

[@MrMrprofessor12345]

There's nothing wrong with that kind of response. It acknowledges the data could be inaccurate, then starts a claim about how while that could be true for some, there are other ways to achieve that. The only questionable part would be claiming one is truly "better" than the other, since different people value different things, and just don't factor in the same requirements for ways to be happy.

[@Tohlemiach]

​@@pnut3844able I was using a bit of hyperbole, but actually in general religious people tend to report higher well-being, happiness, and sense of purpose in pretty much all polling data. That's what Alex was referring to. The question now remains: if Sam is truly committed to "well-being" as his moral outcome, then it shouldn't matter how you get there. If you have to be deluded to be happy and the goal is happiness, then we should all be deluded. If, on the other hand, the goal is knowledge and awareness, then we should sacrifice whatever happiness we could have by being delusional and live in the potential misery of an absurd and unfair world. The reason I have no personal issues with religious people is because I think it's totally fair to live in a delusion that makes you happier. I don't accept the excesses of this delusion, i.e. the mistreatment of sexual orientation minorities, but if my dad is happier thinking the Earth is 6,000 years old, I don't really feel any moral imperative to change his mind. That's why I don't personally *encourage* people to be religious because you can get things like Michael Knowles who wants a theocracy, so there still needs to be accountability for these people, but the level to which Sam Harris seems to want the eradication of religion is equally foolish.

[@Rishabh-Dev]

Well of course it does. Just look at Hinduism and Buddhism.

[@Shawn-nq7du]

After listening to Sam Harris, who would want to be an atheist? He’s lost all of his luster. Maybe his enthusiasm is in his shoes.

[@avivastudios2311]

Atheism is not something people want to be. It's a lack of belief. Sam Harris is popular because he told people to meditate I believe.

[@Shawn-nq7du]

@@avivastudios2311 it is amazing what people get sold on and they think believing people are gullible

[@avivastudios2311]

@@Shawn-nq7du All people need is something to make them feel good and they subscribe to it.

[@MathiVelan]

He himself is a non-resistant non-believer. Many of us are. We try to find truth in gosepls, church community, religious writings, etc, and are hit with silence from God. A religious person would say we are not truly "non-resistant", but putting yourself in the same position, what can you do? Belief is not something a human can truly choose. If the Bible says my carpet is actually hardwood, I cannot just convince myself that what I'm seeing is hardwood. No matter how much I want the carpet to be wood, I cannot convince myself, just as I cannot convince myself of belief.

[@Shawn-nq7du]

@@MathiVelan Have you tried prayer? That is how I found God, or should I say, that is when I responded back to God's thirst who is always thirsting for us. He nudges us all the time. We can choose to believe, but not on our own. Jesus says, the Spirit draws us to him. So, pray for the Holy Spirit to lead you to God. Prayer is powerful. God bless!

[@user-ud7ko4cq1n]

The problem with "secular church" is that any idea, sermon, or practice the church leadership espouses, can (and should) be questioned critically by the churchgoers, because the churchgoers realize it's just thoughts and opinions from other peers as flawed and mortal as their own minds. So the dynamic would become more like a town hall, with factions and arguments over what everyone should rally behind. Whereas sacred church posits ancient, inerrant, divine mandates from the Creator Of The Universe. This makes everyone at church feel the moral code being discussed isn't up for debate. It's mandated by a God. A God that watches them 24/7, and knows if being they're azy not attending church, and could punish them in an afterlife for not falling in line with the churches' instructions. I'm not religious, BUT, in terms of psychological subservience, there's a reason sacred churches have lasted for thousands of years in abundance. It's because it gives people a community where humans aren't infighting, and all agree on what needs done, and what should be appreciated. It is THE ONENESS OF THE GROUP, that is so appealing to churchgoers. What could be better than an "in-group", where you're on the "in", your "leader" created the universe, your group will be rewarded with eternal bliss, and anyone who contests your group is an "out-group" who will be punished forever challenging you. That doesn't mean the holy books are true or the doctrine is intelligent. But it DOES mean the power of church is like a form of heroine. A powerful addiction, and "sacred church" as Sam suggests here, is like trying to convince people to give up heroine, and trade it in for some carrots. Even if it's inherently healthier, it's not going to feel as viscerally rewarding.

[@stephenholmgren405]

I doubt this. Sweden and Denmark are overwhelmingly atheists and have virtually no crime, higher education, long lifespans and generally happier people. In the USA the more religious a state the higher crime and poverty. In the middle-east that argument speaks for itself. Desperate people will believe in whatever placebo effect remedies sadness

[@Chewis555]

Finland is statistically the happiest country in the world and also a majority 66% Evangelical Lutheran Christians. Japan is among the least happiest developed countries and has a population of 65% atheists. That's not to say religion doesn't play a role in a nations wellbeing, but I think the fact there's no consistency in data shows there are plenty more factors to consider when assessing a nation's happiness other than religion.

[@blazer6708]

UAE has 2x lower crime then Denmark and 3.5x lower crime then Sweden, Finland is "happier" and more religious then the two examples so the correlation isnt there, what does education and lifespan have to do with religion?

[@roykeane1922]

Sweden has no crime? 😂😂😂 Wow you’ve been living under a rock. Have another go Stephen. It has one of the worst gang violence problems in the world. You should’ve listened to Mark Twain

[@michaeldehart3253]

Isn’t “happier” a subjective measurement? I don’t put a lot of stock in self reporting surveys based on feelings. Feelings are gauged on expectations being met. Feed a starving country everyday for a year and I’m sure their “happiness” would improve dramatically.

[@henkez6960]

Swede here. Sweden has no crime? It's the bombing capital of the EU and has the most non-wartime bombings second only to Mexico. 391 shootings last year and more bombings than any other country in the EU in a country of only 10mil.

[@lambdanebula8473]

Wellbeing should not be your focus. If you focus on wellbeing, unless you're using an incredibly vague and broad definition that essentially equates to "positive value", doesn't align with what human beings value. Instead, a sense of fulfillment, defined essentially as a meaningful life consisting of building things of high value, best encompasses what causes people to ultimately value their life highly. Further, it's their own fulfillment, not that of others, that makes their own life valuable, so there is no justification for maximizing fulfillment in general, especially at the expense of their own, as a focus for evaluating decisions. That last point is less a refutation of what Sam said explicitly, but more a refutation of an implicit assumption he's making when he discusses how information can be harmful. He assumes that information is harmful because, if it were widely spread, it would cause harm, but it doesn't need to be widely spread to be valuable to me. To the crazy person who wants to blow up the city, that information is extremely valuable. To me, it may be valuable for knowing what to avoid, or to harnessing the energy involved. Don't get me wrong, I get that the discussion is already framed in terms of Sam Harris's moral system, but it's a clear flaw with that system that it fails to demonstrate that one ever should put wellbeing in general over their own. Of course, as empathetic and cooperative creatures, it's often in our benefit to work for the good of others, but there's a limit to this in terms of for who, how much, and when we should do so.

[@AshBowie]

To not focus on well-being is thus to allow for gratuitous suffering, which cannot be morally justified. I suspect your confusion stems from not understanding that fulfillment is an intrinsic component of well-being.

[@lambdanebula8473]

​@@AshBowie What is gratuitous is arbitrary, suffering is not just justified but necessary, morality is nonsense, and there is no confusion except your own, as I've already addressed the incredibly broad definition of wellbeing you're using here, but I will do so again. If you're defining wellbeing so broadly that it includes fulfillment it becomes useless. At that point, you're, as I said before, essentially equating it to "good" or "high value". It is no longer precise enough to even be useful as an end goal. Fulfillment is, and as an added bonus, it actually maps on to high value for humans, and is precise enough to guide decision making. Value is subjective, but humans are all the same in all the ways that matter, and seeking fulfillment, rather than freedom from suffering, happiness, or contentment, maximizes value for humans. Morality is a term which describes value, but of course, value is subjective, and thus what is true about morality must only be true subjectively. If something is immoral, then it must only be immoral given a particular subject, whether that be a person and their values, a group of people, or some standard. The problem is, no one, including yourself, actually discusses morality this way. Rather than saying "gratuitous suffering is morally unjustifiable GIVEN a particular subject or standard", you said gratuitous suffering "cannot be morally justified" for which you don't provide a subject, and you even go so far as to say this 'fact' is a logical contradiction for a non-wellbeing centered view. Words are defined by the way they are used, and morality is used as though it's objective, but it logically can't be as it is centered on value, and thus it is nonsense. Even if you try to create a morality centered, not on value, but some objective factor such as whether something is self/societally destructive/constructive, calling it morality would be a misnomer, but that's fine if you chose to do so. However, if you don't clarify that you're using this non-standard definition of morality, what you're saying still includes this contradictory meaning. You'd do better by simply stating what your standard for decisions are, whether that being maximizing personal value, or being societally constructive (in my case preferring the former above all and preferring the latter only in how it serves the former). That way, you avoid the baggage of morality conflating the subjective with the objective. Suffering is essentially, because it is the currency of meaning, and meaning is the key to fulfillment. Meaning is gained by working towards goals you deeply value, and by fulfilling your responsibilities, but the actions you take in service to the aims which grant you that sense of meaning are only those which require you to suffer. If your goal can be achieved without requiring you to suffer, they will feel hollow and pointless. Those responsibilities which require no sacrifice are not fulfilling. It's the choice to undergo suffering in service to your goals and responsibilities that gives you meaning, and the higher that price you choose to pay, the more meaningful that choice will be. This is such a powerful effect that even without those aims, suffering can sometimes give a sense, albeit temporary, of meaning, which is part of how people become trapped in depression and intoxicated with solemnity. The most straight forward interpretation of the word "gratuitous" in the phrase you used "gratuitous suffering" is essentially suffering which is unnecessary. However, what is or isn't necessary is dependent on whatever end point you're hoping to achieve. Suffering through the cold is necessary for achieving the world record for the longest distance swam under ice. However, that suffering is entirely unnecessary for simply learning to swim. It depends on the goal, and whatever goal you choose will depend on what you value. Again, just as with morality, you're running blind into the issue that what is or isn't necessary cannot be defined without defining by what values you're making that determination. To say with certainty that something will lead to gratuitous suffering, you need to have some objective standard for what is gratuitous, which means you need to have some objectively correct goal, and objectively correct values, and objective values is still complete nonsense. This worldview you have is logically unjustifiable and incredibly naïve.

[@AshBowie]

@@lambdanebula8473 That's a lot of words to say that you have no idea what I'm talking about. The "worldview" I presented is not only logically justifiable (in reality, not in your invented version of it), it is the ONLY logically justifiable position. Because gratuitous suffering is NOT arbitrary. Once you recognize that your rebuttal starts off with this profoundly and frankly deeply immoral error, then you can come around to understanding the genuine nature of morality. I wish you luck.

[@fzr1000981]

Darwinism is a religion. Hitler showed the full potential of Darwinism as a worldview

[@cinnamondan4984]

I listened to Mormon Stories about building secular societies for post-Mormons. It seems that whatever the magic juice that Mormonism has cannot be artificially concocted by well-meaning individuals who in theory should have all of the tools to make a secular carbon copy of what they admired about being Mormon.

[@LilySage-mf7uf]

The most religious countries on Earth have the highest crime rates, highest poverty rates, highest rates of disease, lowest rates of education, least amount of human rights, and the shortest lifespans

[@thekillshootable]

China has good human rights?

[@LilySage-mf7uf]

@@thekillshootable No, but that's not because of lack of religion, it's because of communism and totaIitarianism

[@thekillshootable]

@@LilySage-mf7uf Right, so maybe when there’s a lack of religion authoritarianism and communism may fill the void which was originally filled by religion.

[@prime12602]

@@thekillshootableSouth Korea doesn’t have a religion and the only issue there is lookism and sexism.

[@prime12602]

@@thekillshootablenot necessarily, just look at South Korea.

[@joshuaallen7171]

Harris's answer about transcendent experiences is quite telling - that he doesn't really get what religion is about. People consume and relate to religion (most of the time) through STORIES - like the betrayal of Jesus, the relationship between God and Job, the flight of Mohammed from Mecca, the enlightenment of Buddha etc. We understand those stories because they are about PEOPLE, and God also is a CHARACTER. Most people are not scientists who want to solve scientific problems through meditiation. They want a belief system that helps them with moral and social problems, hence why all those religious stories are about people, not chemical formulae.

[@stuffystuff3482]

Harris's MO: "Don't buy into organized religion, it's all a made up lie. Instead, buy my book and I'll show you how to live your life" 😂😂😂

[@tox_ph0b0s80]

I don't understand how people have become overly cynical like this about authors. Harris absolutely does not pitch his books as if you need to buy them to lead an enlightened life. You're talking about the guy that makes his podcast available for free for people who are poor and request access. Why should someone NOT get paid for their work is a better question.

[@SpaveFrostKing]

That's the most over-the-top, cartoon strawman of Harris I've ever heard. Besides, it's not as if people don't give a lot of money to organized religion.

[@bra-o-bra]

@@tox_ph0b0s80well said, i agree and i would take it a step further and say that the appropriate reaction is gratitude to the fact that he shares his knowledge and wisdom. And on top of that im grateful that he is rewarded for it so that he is free to spend his time on doing more of this type of thing and not sacrifice time and energy doing something else to keep food on the table.

[@stuffystuff3482]

@@tox_ph0b0s80 So Harris doesn't write books decrying and bashing religion and proposing his own ideas as to what people should do with their lives morally speaking? And he doesn't write these books hoping they sell by the millions? Are you this simple minded on purpose or just selectively?

[@tox_ph0b0s80]

@@stuffystuff3482 In basically none of the books Harris writes does he specifically advocate how someone should lead their life. On religion, he critiques it, like people have done for thousands of years, and he's a specific advocate for the idea that you can replace much of the 'good' functions of religion with secular practices. So in other words secularists don't have to deprive themselves of certain things that most people only get through church, etc. Also, his harshest critique of religion is basically focused on the more hardcore religious zealotry that is causing immeasurable suffering. He doesn't care about your average dude who goes to church once a week, leads a normal life, and is content. The idea of the books is to simply remove people from being steeped in dogma. The only book where he takes a specifically strong stance about a specific behavior is his 'lying' book, in which he argues that even 'white lies' are worse than you think, etc. But even then, he's not *telling* you what to do to be happy or to lead your best life. He acknowledges that 'don't lie' shouldn't be applied universally, but the point is to to challenge oneself to really think about if they *need* to lie in any given situation and the potential ramifications of said lie, instead of just doing it without thinking.

[@mikeuk2000]

Alain De Bottom wrote a great book about this called “Religion for Atheists”. He would be a good choice for Alex to Interview

[@Howtobe777]

What if alcoholism maximises wellbeing?

[@chadreilly]

Lol, I had the same thought.

[@HonestlyAtheist]

Humanist Congregations like Ethical Societies, Oasis, Sunday Assembly, etc., currently exist all over the US and offer all the traditional benefits of shared community and moral reflection without any of the dogmatic baggage or commitment to supernatural elements of reality of any kind. If you wish there were more communities like this, you should check them out and see if there is one near you that you can support!

[@Seethi_C]

Are you sure there’s no dogmatic baggage? Is it like the ACA where you get shunned for having unpopular beliefs about trangenderism etc?

[@HonestlyAtheist]

@@Seethi_C they do tend to be pretty progressive spaces, but I can confirm that there is no bar to membership in Ethical Societies based on your beliefs. If you can't handle being challenged on your beliefs, or if you are asked to leave for becoming belligerent or disruptive, then that's on you.

[@milaloup]

Purpose maximises wellbeing. Religion can be the purpose in people's lives. But so could binge-watching Netflix.

[@noorzanayasmin7806]

The problem is Binge watching netflix doesnt tell you to be better. If you not being told to be better and try to be better then you feel empty inside. Binging on netflix will give you depression. There is new science out there proving so.

[@milaloup]

@@noorzanayasmin7806 not if you keep setting yourself goals for becoming a better netflix binge watcher.

[@TheMoopMonster]

Binge watching Netflix, is inherently purposeless. Progression for progression's sake has no intrinsic value, even though in the moment it feels so, regardless of the direction or content. Like progressing a videogame character, your brain feels satisfied, in the flow state, and there is of course some degree of value in the information, same as netflix, but ultimately you're left with nothing in the end. Progress is not purpose, purpose comes from love, passion, attention, and self sacrifice. If you are truly finding those things in binging Netflix, so be it, but it is easier than it would seem to deceive yourself.

[@noorzanayasmin7806]

@@milaloup You can try and let us know how you feel. Usually people try to get out of mindless binge watching netflix or youtube browsing. But hey you might be the gem between all the other people

[@Quinceps]

But communities are limited by their own interests, so pretty much everyone else can eff off, from the community’s perspective. And that tends to explode when they’re met with upfront opposition from other communities. But if you want to analyze the community from inside, consider how convenient it is to have beliefs which are in common with others and aren’t falsifiable or verifiable, especially if you consider them to be principles and precepts, so that once you’re inside you don’t have to agree or disagree on them with anyone in the group. The belief that those things are what unite the group is what really matters, not the content of the beliefs themselves. That’s why members keep repeating them whether they make sense in themselves or not.

[@y5anger]

There are so many factors at play with religion that you can't take a lot from those "religions increase happiness" studies. I suspect its belonging in a community rather than belief in a higher power that increases happiness. Would be interesting to compare the happiness of the religious to extroverted atheists who self-describe as socially fulfilled.

[@lukemockabee7407]

I think it only fair to disclose that I am a Christian so my view is biased but I'm not trying to change anybody's views about views about whether that is true to reality or not. That being said, isn't that too simplistic of an approach? Scientific evidence shows pretty conclusively that what we believe about the world does shape our reality, i.e the placebo effect and various mental health disorders that can cause physical changes within the body. All things being equal in community between an Atheist and a Theist, how could believing that you'll see your loved ones again someday, believing an all-powerful being is looking out for your well-being, and believing that death is nothing to fear not have some benefit to mental health? Obviously there is a flip-side that religion can at times manifest in unhealthy feelings of guilt and shame but when it's healthy I think religion, even in social isolation, has undeniable benefits.

[@mpeters99]

I think the struggle with that is that secular communities will likely never have something that genuinely means as much to them as God means to the religious person. And this shared maximal reverence for a greater being creates a strong community and camaraderie that I am suspicious secular people would be able to truly replicate. Would like to see studies comparing secular communities to church communities though.

[@y5anger]

@@lukemockabee7407 Personally, the issues you speak of never cross my mind. On the other hand, I have witnessed the service groups, social cliques, cookouts and campouts, and mutal aid that religious groups so often have. Maybe there are socially fulfilled atheists suffering from religious angst but anecdotally that is not the case.

[@lukemockabee7407]

@@y5anger Well shoot more power to you man, I genuinely I'm happy that whatever coping mechanisms you have are working. But my best friend was a wreck for months when his dad died last year. My friend with cystic fibrosis was stressed about finances every time she had a doctor's visit. Those issues were incredibly real to them and no amount of community fully wash out the pain of the situations. I understand these are also anecdotal but since you're speaking solely from your own lived experience all I can do is speak from mine.

[@bike4aday]

There are many factors, but I don't think community is one. Monks have found liberation on silent retreat. Their brains and nervous systems are completely changed as a result. Community is great, but the contentment and peace that people seek has to come from a more reliable source, something less conditional.

[@bubaks2]

Why do some men wear eye liner, but never mascara? I just saw a mascara ad on youtube. Got me thinking.

[@petereames3041]

Religion evolved for a reason.

[@tedarcher9120]

It probably didn't. Most hunter-gatherers don't have religions. It's probably originated from how out evolved brains interact with big civilisations

[@Chewis555]

​@@tedarcher9120 Religion stems from value hierachies, it can't have evolved by itself. Without value hierarchies societies wouldn't have developed and we wouldn't have any survival instinct. What sits at the top of our value hierarchies is our "God Value" where we derive most of our morals and is the lens through which we see the world. These can be either a spiritual belief, an ideological belief, or an interpersonal relationship. It's remarkable atheists don't seem to understand they also operate on the same system of values that spiritually religious people do. Atheism is a religion, political ideologies are religions, LGBTQ is a religion, patriotism is a religion, you can even be religious to your own emotions (hedonism). Nobody is free from this complex, everybody has a God Value, everybody derives their morality from somewhere, everyone is religious to something.

[@noah2633]

​@@tedarcher9120Perhaps large-scale societies require religions or something like them.

[@threestars2164]

Ideas spread faster than genes, it didn't "evolve", muppet.

[@hasush]

Jam band show: a spiritual experience

[@mpeters99]

I find it troubling when Harris writes off these studies Alex mentions as untrue because he thinks there was probably confirmation bias on the behalf of the scientists. Harris has a great financial reason for disagreeing with these studies as they oppose the ideas he espoused in his book. Pulling the books off the shelf would be a financial loss for Harris. How he can call the studies out for having confirmation bias without acknowledging his own confirmation bias is mind boggling to me.

[@roykeane1922]

People are so fooled by his diction it’s honestly quite frustrating. Type up his responses to the challenges Alex poses in this chat, and read them through. There is so little relevant substance. A bloviator of the highest order.

[@ordermind]

I reacted to that as well, especially considering what Sam said about religious people believing in things on insufficient evidence (1:01). I thought it was ironic that his own conviction that there can be a superior, secular way of providing the benefits of religion seems to be based on a source of knowledge completely separated from the current scientific evidence which he dismisses without a second thought. He often seems to be promoting scientific sources of knowledge so I'm very curious to know what source of evidence he's found that can so easily supersede it.

[@mpeters99]

@@roykeane1922 I’ll check them out. Thanks for the response

[@mpeters99]

@@ordermind yeah I gave Harris the benefit of the doubt that he has actually read through the studies mentioned, but if these were simply his opinions without having read through the literature, then that is deeply concerning and deeply intellectually dishonest.

[@bishimback]

I'm very interested in your and Sam's take on what prof. Dawkins said yesterday on lbc

[@pockethook]

What was it about?

[@good_boy_13]

Dawkins has always maintained that he is a cultural Christian and that Christianity, in his view, is better than Islam. There's a 2007 BBC interview where he says this.

[@bishimback]

@@pockethookhe called Christianity a fundamentally decent religion and Islam not decent, and he finds it wrong for the government to decorate streets for Ramadan as opposed for Easter which is more of what the tradition should be.

[@bishimback]

@@good_boy_13 that's not the part I want commented on but the part when he said that Christianity is decent and Islam not.

[@Fromtitwar]

@@bishimback I mean you can argue christianity may not be that great , but at least the mainstream understanding of Christianity in this time is absolutely better than the mainstream understanding of islam , Maybe in the dark ages , they were the same . But not now .

[@Nah_Bohdi]

Sam needs to stop resisting his God, his Lord, Donald Trump. Submit, Sam...its time.

[@MG-ot2yr]

I'm sure there's some things that increase well being, but you'd really have to analyze it to see if those benefits can't be obtained by other means.

[@BeccaYoley]

Why can't we take the positives of religion but base it on premises that are true? This would eliminate much of the harm of relogion while retaining much of the benefit. Secular countries ae better of thsn almost all religious countries, so I think the harm we see in the US is mostly about going against the grain of the culture.

[@melkicastillo3399]

Agree, most of the countries found a healthy relation with religion due to regulation, but americans keep blaming the church instead of the Congress. Any unregulated human institution gets corrupted.

[@scottm4975]

Because you can’t. Atheists have been trying for years, but it’s not possible at scale. Religion is more powerful and effective because of the beliefs, not in spite of the beliefs.

[@BeccaYoley]

@@scottm4975 You talking to the wrong person. Christianity has caused so much damage to my family, and my life improved dramatically when I stopped trusting in Jesus. Religious untruths are not the path to optimal outcomes. It's about as healthy as crack, it's a powerful drug, but not overall beneficial.

[@ali_haidar_313]

​@@BeccaYoley Then the problem with Christianity , I suggest you to read more about Islam

[@MalachiWhite-tw7hl]

They DO have a secular version Sam--it's called Unitarian Universalism., which has devolved into largely feelgood liberalism. Surprised he didn't know that. 7:01

[@SerendipitousProvidence]

It does maximize well-being because God exists and what He wants for you is infinitely better than anything your non-omniscient mind could ever possibly imagine. And what he desires in you isnfor a strong character like God himself. Character > pleasure, arrogance.

[@ShirleyTimple]

Oh look, an actual child in need of a sky daddy... how adorable😅

[@nagranoth_]

lying doesn't support your position gov'ner

[@crabb9966]

​@@ShirleyTimple Something about this wonderful comment made you spiteful, what might that be?

[@ShirleyTimple]

​@@nagranoth_when their entire world view is fictional, what's another fib here and there? 😅

[@calebr7199]

"god exists" citation needed

[@florida12341000]

i feel that the final hurdle towards a secular world that also isnt riddled with depressed nihilists would be finally rejecting the traditional notion of "free will". I think "free will" is why religion has such a grasp on peoples emotions. If you need some sort of cope to remove the worries of whats next what better than understanding that we are all part of this thing we call the universe which could be your "god" and based on what we know of how it functions there is a causal chain happening that you really dont control. What you can control is recognize potentially dangerous patterns and try to avoid those patterns.

[@jacksonelmore6227]

The key to a secular world is to accept and integrate all religion

[@watchman9198]

These guys SOOO hard to debunk God when the evidence is overwhelming

[@MalachiWhite-tw7hl]

They may be trying to debunk religious belief; but the evidence (for God) is anything but "overwhelming."

[@watchman9198]

@@MalachiWhite-tw7hl what’s the alternative? Everything created itself without a mind or consciousness? That takes wayyyyy more faith

[@MalachiWhite-tw7hl]

@@watchman9198 I didn't address alternatives, however I have seen no evidence that could be described as "overwhelming,"

[@watchman9198]

@@MalachiWhite-tw7hl the evidence is, the world is FULL of information. DNA is complex instructions and information. Information ALWAYS comes from a mind. That is true from all human experience. Information cannot create itself. Our experience tells us it comes from a mind. (We call that mind, God)

[@MalachiWhite-tw7hl]

@@watchman9198 Gibberish.

[@scottlarson281]

"Sam, if this were true, and this were true, and this were true, and this were true....would you pull your book from the shelves?" "That's a LOT of ifs...."