The History of the Demiurge - An Ancient Alternate God?

[@CosmicSkeptic]

Get all sides of every story and be better informed at ground.news/AlexOC - subscribe for 40% off unlimited access. For early, ad-free access to videos, and to support the channel, subscribe to my Substack: www.alexoconnor.com

[@japexican007]

god of this world = satan It’s in the Bible as well

[@Metso-ateco]

That tash is criminal, its got to go.

[@robertmahaney9147]

this pope ain't even catholic .

[@rob_7775]

I love this I’m glad you’re doing this.

[@finnjake6174]

I dont get it, why does he wear the kippa when he is not religious?

[@TheEsotericaChannel]

Great to be back on - thanks!

[@MythVisionPodcast]

I'm really glad Alex had you back brother!

[@folee_edge]

Esoterica is a FANTASTIC channel

[@Godisandrogynous]

your work is really cool

[@japexican007]

god of this world = satan Sincerely the Bible

[@888_vav]

Yall know how to kick ball. 🙏✌ ✝️

[@averageatom]

Justin Sledge is one of the few KZbinrs that discovered very early when he had just a few hundred views and it’s been astounding and gratifying to see him rise. So well deserved. Much respect to you both. I discovered this channel much more recently and the blending of two worlds is so very satisfying.

[@Mutantcy1992]

Plus his name is badass

[@willmosse3684]

@@Mutantcy1992Sounds like a Sledgehammer of Justice or something! Hero name!

[@ElyonDominus]

I am a fairly recent viewer of his content. It's some of the best on the breadth of religious and cultural topics he covers.

[@nayrtnartsipacify]

Its too bad he is an insufferable leftist.

[@Rabbithole8]

He's amazing.

[@Rydonattelo]

ESOTERICA! My main man. The black metal wizard/ rabbi. I absolutely adore his work. He finds the perfect middle ground to talk about religion, necromancy, the occult but with a logical way that is more of a study. He's an expert on the subject, not a preacher. Great collaboration Alex. Fantastic teacher to anyone interested in learning about this history of these subjects.

[@Rydonattelo]

@jordancrago5129 He's Jewish but as far as I know he's agnostic. He's an absolute expert on theology of religion and the the history of esoteric practice. He has a PhD.

[@josifcekic5772]

@jordancrago5129 If I remember correctly, I stumbled upon something he said on reddit and I remember reading that he said he was a Marxist anti-theist. Pretty laughably ironic

[@Mamba4.8]

​​​​​@@josifcekic5772 All Gnostic are Marxist and it's all deception. It's the antichrist which was written originally "pseudo Christ". In place of Christ, inverted Christ. " Subtle" like the serpent. Where Christ taught a communist style brotherhood that looks up to God, this teaches a communism that man is God. It acts 50 percent as Christ, while being 50 percent inversion. . it's why they brought out Dionysus at the Olympics acting like the last supper. It's why the assassin (where the Templar's learned gnosticism and brought it to the west) brought the torch (light bearer) carried the torch. That was the new order shouting out " we have now came to the surface" Gnosticism is what the story in the garden of Eden and the Serpent is about. The first serpent lie of "did god tell you this, I tell you that". Most of us that studied this deeply for years have warned a gnostic explosion is going to come around 2020, as it's the deconstruction of Christianity and the old world and ushering the new world and religion of the new age, humanism, man as God, to easier usher in Marxism. It'll be a psuedo form. It's literally the new order. It's why there's an explosion of gnosticism all over the Internet simultaneously while Marxism gripped and took over politics and entertainment. Those who warned of this, to the T, were silenced in the 90s and Early 2000s. It's the biggest deception yet. As it was written in the new testament, this pseudo Christ was always in the earth, since the beginning. Of course Christians don't understand their religion either, and we can all argue whether they think it was a good religion or not, but objectively this is what it is. Which makes me wonder deeply, as an agnostic objective person, if Christ predicted this so perfectly along with the new testament writers and came at the exact perfect time at the end of the age, and they are so hell bent on undermining him since the start, people need to question to themselves. He may be real, and it's the most important thing anyone will ever question. Spiritually and politically. And even with that, everything mainstream Christianity gives us was perverted as well. But it's the fact that Christ prophecies and the writers alleged as Peter and Paul so perfectly predicted this, that should give anyone cause for concern. Over 2000 years ago, it was written this would come at the end of the age. And that's where we are right now

[@JohnnyKooter]

​@@josifcekic5772Highly doubt he said he was anti theist, he probably said non theist.

Figures the guy making fun of Christmas would be a literal fking Necromancer.

[@RodencyRoyalist]

I am beginning to fear that moustache is the demiurge... We protest and protest yet it endures in its malevolence.

[@Arcticpiano303]

Literally

[@rech3771]

😂

[@justacanofbeans8217]

Exactly, please Alex, please.

[@Wetstache]

That stache is weak.

[@willmosse3684]

It’s definitely not the perfect platonic form of a moustache - That’s the evil worldly bodged version 😂

[@thefrostyscoop]

Dr sledge was one of my professors at MCA, really made me interested in esoteric history before he even had a channel! Stoked to see you sit down with him 2 of my favorite channels collabing!!!❤

[@jeffh2166]

Justin was your best guest so far on these biblical deep dives episodes

[@maryc9919]

'The most dangerous thing to scripture is to simply read it.' That is an enduring truth. At 13 yrs, I read the Bible as preparation for my confirmation sacrament. It reenforced every doubt I'd ever had about god and the church. I've been an atheist/humanist ever since.

[@michaelvess6507]

Now explore NDEs (Near Death Experiences) and discover a perfectly loving “God”, and it will liberate you from all of the lies of religion.

[@ruirodtube]

I also found that people who call themselves Christians never read the Bible and don’t know the stories in it. 😅

[@michaelvess6507]

@ Mark Twain said “the best cure for Christianity is reading the Bible “.

[@ElDogeRenacido]

Let me guess. You started from the Old Testament and now think God is some cruel and evil entity due to a dangerous presupposition YOU walked in with, in reading Scripture. Inevitably found the unapologetic historical narrative, then mistakenly took those cruel acts done by sinful men to be the perfect will of a merciful and loving God... Sister. I say this with love. Scripture isn't "cut and dry." It is far more nuanced, esoteric, and intentional in its language than you can possibly imagine. And you realize, Bible=collection of books? Written years apart from each other. Centuries, even millenia apart, depending on which book of Scripture to which. Come to your local Eastern Orthodox Church with all of your inquiries. It sounds like(and please correct me if wrong) you were a Roman Catholic. Please, genuinely pause, and reflect on this. The value of a human soul is a human soul; we are all the image/icon of God, and He does love us, even as we are unfaithful. The sun does shine, and rain falls upon the righteous and wicked still, is this not true?

[@ShatteredWindowpane]

Please do 50 more episodes with Esoterica! These are the best episodes

[@IfYouSeekCaveman]

Been waiting for this. The last podcast with Justin Sledge is my favorite you've done. His breadth of knowledge, and his ability to recall and communicate that knowledge is incredible.

[@Fearia6]

I'm loving the gnostic deep dives, this is one of my favorite topics.

[@ilanraeayalabaciu2957]

Why are sucking the gnostic cock?

[@Stoneworks]

I love Esoterica, fantastic channel. Can't wait to watch

[@kapasian9009]

The legend is here!

[@jooseppielleese7156]

I remember that dude too was suprised he ended up on here, is he jewish?

[@spiralsausage]

Dr Sledge is brilliant and I'm so grateful that you are both making high quality discussions public and accessible ❤

[@danielmcdonald6227]

This is exactly what I needed right now. Just been reading a similar wiki article only for this to pop up

[@AndrewHill-ly2mh]

That’s a sign from some version of some version of some god or other. REPENT TO ALL OF THEM NOW, TO COVER YOUR BASES! 😂

[@danielmcdonald6227]

@@AndrewHill-ly2mh haha oh shit you’re right. Well, I’m off to commit self-flagellation now then…

[@AnonymousAlcoholic772]

I never understood why, given their history, Jews insist on believing that their God is benevolent. One would think that all the evidence points to the opposite.

[@rodrigomachado5291]

It’s a kind of spiritual Stockholm Syndrome. Just look at Leonard Cohen’s last album. His bitterness towards his God.

[@SineN0mine3]

It's fairly simple, within religious thought things like benevolence, goodness or love are defined by God's actions. Benevolence just means whatever God would have done so whatever God does is automatically benevolent. If it appears to you to be cruel and that appears to contradict benevolence that's due to your failure to understand God, benevolence or cruelty. A lowly human cannot understand God's plan or why the things he does out of love appear to be cruel, and to try to prove God wrong is a fool's errand if he defines what is right. I think that's why, as the guest says the history of Yaweh is nore compelling than philosophical and logical arguments. Philosophy and logic are ultimately tools for thinking and they can be used or abused for good or bad, the history is what it is for good or bad. Ok maybe God invented all the stories that came before his story, but why would a god do that? Of all the cryptic things God has ever done, telling us all the ither gods existed was probably his biggest mistake...

[@Neognostic-pk5wu]

​​​@@SineN0mine3it's like you're so close to making that philosophical leap, but your dogmatism has just prevented you from quite landing it yet. You even illustrated the complete inconsistent nature of divine morality that a lot of apologists tend to skirt around in philosophical discussions about morality being objective because they know how utterly circular it becomes when God becomes the arbiter of an "objective" standard. But unlike them, you fly into it head-on. Bravo 😅

[@arturhashmi6281]

Yeah, cause Leonard Cohen's album is theologically representative for Judaism and the problem of evil, because Cohen was Jewish. Atheism is kind of cosmic nihilism, just look at Lovecraft and his books. Atheism is kind of comical rationalism, just look at Ricky Gervais and his comedy. Anecdotal evidence is a common logical fallacy, It is better to be aware of that.

[@arturhashmi6281]

The Book of Job is lit. their answer for that, this book is a poem about the Evil in the world and why it exists. Is it a good explanation? Thats not for me to say. Im not Jewish nor Christian, but It is clear that they were asking themselves that question about 2,5k years ago as well and I recommend you to read it, It is undoubtly one of the classic books of western culture. We need to remember that Yahwe starts his career as one of the bronze age patriarchal Gods representing particular tribe and later he is transformed into monotheistic God of all, probably during Babylonian exile, because we can see that shift clearly in the Book of Isaiah, where the God is eg. said to be the creator of good and evil as well. When the multiple people creates one canon of books during more then thousand years, It would be surprising if all of their beliefs were completely compatible. Sorry for my poor English. Cheers.

[@foppishdilletaunt9911]

Thank you @Esoterica Dr Sledge for your learning, sophistication and humour. Always interesting and edifying.

[@thenobody9755]

I love the myth of the demiurge - having Alex ask all the best questions and esoterica having the most knowledge on the topic - this is a treat 😝🦔🇿🇦🖤

[@JACK-OMARI]

Where in SA are you from ?

[@zevkurtzman8108]

Ive been waiting for Dr. Sledge to come back

[@eM_Wu]

What a delightful theme for Sunday evening

[@drdre3903]

Hello. I have been a "marcionist" for almost 15 years now and i really enjoyed this talk. Glad to see that the world is more and more interested in this topic. This is not a faith but an onthological way of understanding the foundations of morality, thats why we call ourselves gnostics. The only real reason for suffering can be boiled down to simple ignorance, and this ignorance we inherited from the demiurge (The one who plays with people). As Jesus said " forgive them for they do not know what they are doing".

[@johdewit9327]

Not trying to be argumentative but looking at the original Greek, it seems to suggest that not everything is forgiven. (Koine Greek had no commas) "Father forgive them not for they know what they do". "We reap what we sow."

[@MythVisionPodcast]

Perfect guest for a not-so-perfect world! Great conversation so far ‎@CosmicSkeptic & ‎@TheEsotericaChannel ! This should be an ongoing series of conversations. ❤

[@pilotnamealreadytaken6035]

Agreed I love getting to listen to Justin actually conversate. He is very well spoken and carries a convo on a pro level

[@willmosse3684]

Two of our finest thinkers! And explainers! And for a bonus - Mythvision in the chat! What a team!

[@markbell9973]

​@@willmosse3684 Agreed! Love you two. ...to the point of hanging on every one of ya'all's words. Here comes a case in point. Alex: I "got hanged" (read: ya killed it / sick, man!) when you advanced a word we all knew was not quite "le mot juste." Then ensued an atypical pause, which was beautifully respected by your interlocutor. (!Bravissimo¡❤) But finally you resorted to a 3-fold gradation, which made your mind clear as language can be. All in the space of about 3 seconds. Mad respect! I just ditched a much longer comment. Why? I had re-become a doctoral student pounding out my dissertation. Had I continued with that tack, what I originally intended as a validation plain-n-simple would have become ... hmm: idk. And that would have taken me the better of a week. Ugghh. IVORY.tower-ism. === So. Just 1 random quip from my aborted dissertation. RE: the construct named trinity/Dreifaltigkeit/la trinité Your critique of/take on this construct would have earned you the death penalty by slow roasting at the stake with wet wood and a public orgy of ridicule as the roasting dragged on. Where? In Calvin's Geneva. Was about to say that we as a worldwide civilization have made progress since then. BUT. Have we?? Now in 2024 we are "making America great again" which in some highly influential circles is code for a return to Geneva, 1500s style. Sounds insane? That's bc it is. Crudely, wildly, savagely insane. Thanks for your work, men! Mark (rural Arizona by birth and upbringing)

[@misterOphilies]

These are great conversations you have with Dr. Sledge. Thank you.

[@samwillard5688]

Glad to listen, thank you for having this conversation.

[@Vampyr_000]

Alex o Connor and my favorite occultist

[@I-am-Hrut]

Dr. Sledge doesn't believe in any of the occult knowledge he studies

[@zacharylong7717]

Right!!!

[@brendanwiley253]

Empiricists: "That's an interesting theory on how the world was made Plato, care to back it up with a Source?" Plato:"My Source is that I made it the fuck up!"

[@Nick-ij5nt]

theists: can you empirically prove empiricism? empiricists: we can prove empiricism if you grant us empiricism

[@Anon-f6j]

Almost as good as him literally just flexing his muscles as his counterargument.

[@CatastrophicDisease]

@@Nick-ij5ntDing ding ding

[@BennyAscent]

​@Nick-ij5nt i mean, the proof of the pudding is in the eating. The computer you sent this from was made using the discoveries of empiricism. So is any medicine you take, any vehicles you use to get around... it all requires observing the way that the world works, taking data points and building relationships between those data points. Unless youre a solipsist, in which case, like, whatever, continue your navel gazing philosophical masturbation ad nauseum.

[@NorbertNahumEvreuklovic]

Ok Brendan. You know MORE than a greek philosopher😊 Mitigate your f ego you prat...

[@joshuasheets9236]

Your videos are never short. But these feature length interviews are great. Dr. Sledge is such a smart dude, I’ve been excited for this video since you announced it in your QnA. If I ever learn his secrets in how to find buried treasure I’ll cut you in too.

[@petebrennanmusic6939]

'Demiurge' is a great name for a Death Metal band and that thumbnail would be the perfect artwork for their debut album.... 🎸

[@RepublicofGilead-br4uv]

Meshuggah does have a song called “Demiurge”, which is my favorite song by them.

[@pilotnamealreadytaken6035]

I agree this is death metal material 100%

[@onimusha13]

Demiurge by Meshuggah, although a song - not an album, fucks

[@raz0rcarich99]

​@@RepublicofGilead-br4uv Badadum badadum badadum badadum badadum badadum badadum badadum badadum badadum badadum badadum badadum badadum badadum badadum

[@deathmetalglenn]

​@@raz0rcarich99😂😂nice

[@Newcras]

Two of the KZbin philosophy channels I respect the most collabing? I'm here for it

[@WolfoxBR]

Dr. Justin Sledge is such a treasure. So glad to see him here again. Thanks for this!

[@nikibankov1218]

I cannot get over the fact that I love and hate Alex's moustache at the same time

[@okktok]

Are you 14

[@GOG-KING]

Are you?​@@okktok

[@pilotnamealreadytaken6035]

That's the definition of art 😂

[@joshuakohlmann9731]

He's gone from Oxford philosopher to Freddie Mercury with a few strokes of the razor.

[@DickRarrah]

Its a cock sucker moustache

[@yurironoue5888]

ESOTERICA is one of my favourite KZbin channels on KZbin! Dr Sledge is brilliant!

[@TheAmericanAmerican]

As a former catholic now atheist, the more I learn about the beginnings of Christianity the more of what I "learned" in church makes sense on a historical level. The idea that early Christians used aspects of the ancient Egyptian religion to form the origins of Christianity is so fascinating! And all the talk of the Old Testament God being pretty much evil makes so much more sense when learning about how the early Christians wanted to distance themselves from Judaism. The lore is so incredibly deep!

[@roylaufer9233]

I realize that this is not a zoological discourse, but donkeys are fertile (where do you think we get donkeys from?). He is getting donkeys confused with mules, who are cross-bred donkeys with horses, that are very rarely able to reproduce.

[@kiefersands720]

This man is an idiot, he is making claims about beliefs that are way to specific and controversial to be said without giving a direct source.

[@TylerJames-yu5hf]

Lots of facts they don’t have straight in this episode…

[@24kanthony]

Great guest. His videos are so informative and he doesn't present any of his assumptions as if they were hard facts, that should be considered in a more dramatic way then appropriate

[@kameelffarag]

Justin Sledge is a treasure of knowledge. Thanks Alex for connecting with a great academic

[@Greg29]

Donkeys aren't sterile, otherwise there'd be no donkeys. Mules which are the offspring of horse and donkey are sterile.

[@tomo2807]

The Legacy of Kain has a great Demiurgesque idea explored paired up with a great determinism vs free will topic, amazing video game series

[@cathymelanson7119]

Two of my favorites together AGAIN!!!🎉

[@robgrabowski2572]

Absolutely love these collaborations with Dr Sledge, thank you so much! I hope to see the two of you again in future episodes 😊👍

[@Philusteen]

So happy to see Dr. J back. Caffeine engaged. 🖖☕

[@veganostra7388]

My favourite people on youtube talking about my favourite subject, what a treat!

[@psicologiayneurocienciaoficial]

Awesome conversation! 😮 Thank you, both of you.

[@johdewit9327]

Beautiful podcast. It hits me at the core.

[@Thumbs81]

Wicked, this is perfect Sunday evening viewing

[@dead4419]

i love this collab. been watching esoterica for ages and its really cool to see my man getting some exposure!

[@elephantsface]

Commenting on the first part cause I haven’t watched the whole video yet, the Yahweh video stuck out to me in a weird way like you guys were talking about. I think because growing up catholic I had often heard atheist arguments against religion, like the problem of evil, so the rebuttals were known to me. But I had never heard of a recorded beginning of Yahweh and recorded changes to how he was defined so the idea I had that god has always been around and always been the same being contradicted with evidence was a very new thing to think about and with how entrenched I had been in religion, it was jarring to be introduced to the new way to think about it.

[@pablokagioglu2546]

Thanks Alex and Justin. 👏👏 Another amazing talk on religious perspectives that totally escape the public discourse. So much context that is totally missed. Bonus: we walk away with a clever quote from Justin that reflects the sad state of affairs in the world. “People don’t respond to philosophy, they respond to mythology”

[@Orikon25]

Holy hell what a magnificent fucking podcast, especially towards the end when you touch upon all the meta truths and universal principles that the Gnostic Christians seem to have been be pretty close to and the various influences stemming from philosophical and cultural machninations on a local level. Each time I think I know a lot about this entire topic, I'm proven wrong. Thank you so much Alex. This kind of insight, knowledge and wisdom used to be reserved for the few, but here we are listening to it for free from the comfort of our homes.

[@JonathonPawelko]

The Yahweh episode was so interesting, I listened to it again just to catch some of the nuances. If others haven't listened to it yet, it is well worth it. Cheers from Canada

[@nancinyols8015]

Re: Truth about Santa: I felt unbelievably sick when I was finally told Santa wasn't real. I think I was about 8. So, when I had my two sons, I never lied to them. Ironically, my eldest took it well while my youngest heard us and then went off for the next 5 years ignoring what we said and believing in Santa because he chose to. Nice outcome, I think.

[@minahana1112]

This was really great! Thank you Justin and Alex and I hope you can talk again!

[@tompatterson1548]

If it weren’t for the syncretism with El, I think Yahweh’s history wouldn’t be quite so problematic to some people. It could always be that “oh, this region is just where he first revealed himself” until he’s two gods combined.

[@Phantasmeels]

I'm absolutely psyched that you guys filmed a follow-up episode

[@TheAnnaK74]

Thankyou for this video and for letting Dr Sledge talk freely because he has filled in a lot of gaps and answered a lot of long term questions for me.

[@douglasperry8211]

This has got to be the most random subject to stumble across that i found almost impossible to NOT watch. I quickly got the feeling Dr. Sledge knows what he's talking about, and is very interesting to listen to.

[@ЧЕРНЫЙ-ТОВАРИЩ]

Just subbed yesterday. This channel is fascinating.

[@felixmidas2020]

It's not good to let yourself be dominated. You should definitely reconsider.

[@ЧЕРНЫЙ-ТОВАРИЩ]

@@felixmidas2020 you’re projecting brother. I love you.

[@felixmidas2020]

@@ЧЕРНЫЙ-ТОВАРИЩ I appreciate it. Just don't be a sub. If you must be anything, be a dom.

[@ЧЕРНЫЙ-ТОВАРИЩ]

@@felixmidas2020 lmao ahhh bdsm pun. I get it 😆🖤🙏🏼

[@felixmidas2020]

@@ЧЕРНЫЙ-ТОВАРИЩ Now we're talking, buddy. Have a great Sunday.

[@Maldo_DJ]

I pay internet only for this kind of content, thanks to both, what an enlightening podcast

[@folee_edge]

Thanks for bringing the Esoterica Channel to my attention. I love his topics, his humor, and his delivery. Dense but delicious!

[@ozone20rulez]

Eyy. Esoterica channel. Im a huge occult nerd so I've seen this guy around. This is a pretty good collab!

[@chriswilliamsCKG]

Watching the last conversation led me to subscribe and enjoy @TheEsotericaChannel content. Let’s see where this one leads me.

[@thcbenji42069]

You two are my two favorite channels, estatic you guys collabed

[@ZaiDrizzleDrop]

I honestly find it amazing that even thousands of years ago, people read the bible and went "Huh, this sounds pretty evil doesn't it? No way the god of love would do this stuff, it has to be a lesser, evil god who created the world and commands all this genocide." These guys were so far ahead, the god of the bible really does line up with the demiurge.

[@adamplentl5588]

The Bible hasn't existed for thousands of years.

[@sowersass2]

Crazier to me is how anyone reads the Bible now and thinks oh yeah that makes sense.

[@robotaholic]

​@@sowersass2exactly...like Adam and Eve getting punished for disobedience when they haven't eaten the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and bad yet or how did God make day and night before making the sun lol or planting vegetation before making the sun lololo - why worship someone who admits they killed everyone on earth except 8 already and they will tell the story he wants, too....

[@SavannahEasom]

@@sowersass2god loves you beyond reason. The older you get, the more sense it makes.

[@SavannahEasom]

@@robotaholicgod loves you too! Try looking at the Bible with softer eyes. This world is not as He intended, which is a byproduct of giving free will to man and his angels and demigods. Which also ties into the Flood and the slaughter of canaanites. Micheal Heiser really tied this together for me.

[@AnonymousAlcoholic772]

Δημιουργός can mean craftsman, but it could also mean creator, and further, it could also mean instigator.

[@Pootycat8359]

Hmmm...Might it ALSO mean the "Architect," as the Masons might put it? 🙂

[@AnonymousAlcoholic772]

@@Pootycat8359 i dont think so. That is Αρχιτέκτονας. Or Αρχιτέκτων in ancient greek. Its own specific word BUT… implication is more important i think. In any case, it means one who makes something come into being, whether that is a universe or a riot.

[@Pootycat8359]

@@AnonymousAlcoholic772 At any rate, it's an interesting coincidence. An architect IS a "craftsman," of a sort, and he IS "[O]ne who makes something come into being..."

[@BoogieMurder]

@@Pootycat8359 not really a coincidence, while its correct that in modern greek they have become their own words. In greek, the Masons are called, "Τέκτονες". That comes from Proto-Hellenic *téktōn, from Proto-Indo-European *tetḱō (“carpenter”), from *tetḱ- (“to create, produce”). Cognate with Sanskrit तक्षन् (tákṣan). Αρχι-τέκτονας (Architect) Literally means the Great Creator, a synonym "Δημιουργός", hence the Masons phrasing it like that. Though I doubt most know why.

[@johnmejia4428]

This was such a great conversation!

[@MicahBuzanANIMATION]

If the Demiurge is real, then that solves the problem of pain and suffering from a perfect God paradox: evil MUST exist if the creator is inherently evil.

[@patrickday4206]

It's why masonic beliefs end up teaching at the highest levels that God and the devil are the same thing.

[@virilian]

And good must also exist to be able to contrast evil, it doesn't solve the paradox it flips it on it's head

[@patrickday4206]

@@virilian or it's a super powerfull creator as flawed as us

[@kho7491]

@@patrickday4206 absolutely not the father of jesus is not the demiurge

[@nugzly6304]

Is the "optimal but imperfect world" angle also a plausible explanation for the existence of pain and suffering? Or did I miss something?

[@Maldo_DJ]

Dr. Justin with his alchemical lab in the background, this guy is amazing.

[@siriusthecat]

Your last video with Dr. Justin was also my favorite of yours so far!! I had a renewed interest in gnosticism at a similar time to your series beginning. What a treat

[@MrEvasto]

Thank you very much for this deep dive! I'm a more or less Christian believer. Have been agnostic most of my life since two years ago. And I have to say that Alex's channel is one of the place from which I learn the most precious philosophical bricks, so to say.

[@danielmartin7505]

Rather than evil demiurge, what about a god who is well intentioned but incompetent? Ive often thought the universe is a botched job.

[@jdm5570]

I'm loving these collabs, and Dr Sledge is a freaking national treasure.

[@hefti2459]

At 1:03:10 - His comment seems to be quite fallacious and I would like to hear the elaboration on how this passage is xenophobic. The passage he is referring to is Matthew 15:22-28. "And behold, a Canaanite woman from that region came out and was crying, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely oppressed by a demon." But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, "Send her away, for she is crying out after us." He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." But she came and knelt before him, saying, "Lord, help me." And he answered, "It is not right to take the children 's bread and throw it to the dogs." She said, "Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters ' table." Then Jesus answered her, "O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed instantly." A very common intrepretation of this scripture is: "Christ is not insulting her, or her people, but pointing out that He has an obligation to offer His "bread" to the children of God. In response-showing both great wisdom and great humility-she answered that the Master, Jesus, can choose to allow the dogs to eat the crumbs. In other words, that which was offered to "the children," and either wasted or rejected, is something the master would happily let others take. In all this, she has never wavered in being convinced that Jesus is truly the Messiah and that it is within His power to cast the demon from her daughter." - BibleRef.com

[@miniwheatz93]

One of the main ideas that brought me away from a belief in god was that I did not see his proposed effect, and I instead occasionally saw people that I believed to be good doing 'bad' things. This led me to the idea that an 'evil' being is more likely to exist than a wholly 'good' being; didnt know it had a name!

[@drunvert]

The real GOD "source" is inside you.

[@ToMegaTherionXCIII]

Another interview with these two 💕. This is the best age to live in.

[@Johnathonswift]

Excellent, I'm rewinding this back to the beginning immediately.

[@bl3df0rdays]

What a treat! Thank you Alex and Justin!

[@ramonacevedo356]

Heck yea. My favorite u tubers!!! Looking forward to the discussion bro... Doogie

[@MaleINTP]

So... Apologetics has always existed since ancient Greece... This reminds me of the excuses such as "slavery back then wasn't as bad as today's slavery... They had rights. God isn't immoral for allowing it..."

[@tactlacker]

And those same people will denounce and deny they participate in historical relativism!

[@DJWESG1]

They also offered a very good critique of slavery and bondage , as we do today.

[@tactlacker]

@@DJWESG1 reminds me of Parenti's remarks about the majority of the populations were often slaves and it's a safe bet slaves would've generally been opposed to their own suffering/or that any defense would originate from those aggrandizers who dynastically stood to gain from its perpetuation

[@NIMM_VOID]

i'm an ex-christian going on 12 years and you two are my favorite to engage with philosophically & religiously.

[@drunvert]

Jesus is still Jesus, sent by Sophia, in the gnostic texts

[@erickaufmann5174]

28:54 someone please get Alex a double espresso - or else this is going to be a tough for hin..

[@loganperry5669]

I hope he has this man on again

[@A20-w8l]

Humans are so eager to not be responsible for their own lives, they would worship a can of beans.

[@tsriftsal3581]

Follow the gourd!

[@souldancer7389]

Great channel. I am so glad I found people who use their own mind to reason. 👏👏👏

[@angelasutherland7479]

Why "yeah right" concerning the Trinity? Many Gods are able to take on different forms especially the Greek Gods. And if you are a God existing in 3 forms must be super easy. Your cynicism seems strange to me.

[@mtklaric]

His mask fell of right there in that moment...

[@993LD]

Great guest, great discussion, great mustache 👍 this was a win

[@Saltyarticles]

Oh man. I love Esoterica channel. Super Black Metal episode on this one.

[@steakismeat177]

I think this is the best example of a good god that has no choice in allowing evil. He tried his best but couldn’t get rid of evil

[@hissupremecorrectfulnessre9478]

I clicked this so fast, I ripped a hole in the fabric of the spacetime continuum and caused the Tunguska explosion.

[@docbauk3643]

Very, very interesting conversation. Thanks.

[@askers_]

Why is everyone talking about this so much in the last couple months? Everyone and their mother learned the word demiurge recently.

[@Neognostic-pk5wu]

I noticed that Gnostic philosophy was very much a niche interest until recently. I think James Lyndsey recently pushed it more to the front with his bizarre reach to link a dead Judeo Christian tradition to modern day wokeness via conflating Hegel with Gnosticism. Perhaps the resurgence of interest in it is an unintended Streisand Effect from people who have heard what Lyndsey has to say and wanting to find out what it actually is as a result?

[@christopherhamilton3621]

@@Neognostic-pk5wuI think it’s been a topic even before Lindsay started with his stories.

[@Neognostic-pk5wu]

@@christopherhamilton3621 it's always been a topic but it always seemed to be in fairly obscure circles. It's still not exactly mainstream, but there's seems to have been a noticeable upsurge of interest in just the last couple of years.

[@AshAll3469]

Really? I myself happened to hear of it these past couple months while researching things on Christianity. Perhaps it’s due to all the religious political stuff going on right now? People are looking at alternative forms of Christianity? 🤔

[@CaptainTitforce]

The Gnostic Gospels have just been brought up in the last years and more people are learning about them, so the popularity of the subject has surged high right now.

[@danielhamilton3496]

41:30 I think he is thinking of Mules. Donkeys are absolutely fertile and able to reproduce. Mules are a cross between a horse and a donkey and are sterile.

[@romanmay2867]

yeah i caught that too but yanno anything to get ur point “correct”

[@EvidenceOfTheDivine]

This guy is so close to what it is. i am glad he is laying the ground for people to accept the incoming revelations. You are doing good my friend. Keep it up

[@rodrigomachado5291]

What revelations? You got me curious.

[@adamplentl5588]

You sound stupid when you say things like this.

[@EvidenceOfTheDivine]

@@rodrigomachado5291 The scientific proof for the "gods". It's going to get great my dude. Soon.

[@blizzforte284]

​@@EvidenceOfTheDivine Lol. Which god?

[@TheJosephAller]

@@EvidenceOfTheDivine Which god? at best you could reach the idea of a deist god, but religious gods require more evidence. That road leads to Pure monotheism, which is a double edge sword. How do you know it leads to more than one god and not pure monotheism? It leads to the idea of either god is good... or he is evil. And I'm not convinced he is good

[@poeticjustice1611]

So many great points were made in this entire discussion. I especially like the way it was wrapped up with recognizing how much speculative philosophy was instrumental to early Christianity’s theological development. This particularly resonated with me because it surprised me when I learned about this in college while studying to be a Christian pastor. So much so that I stopped pursuing this endeavor and chose to walk away from the Christian faith. It was enough for me to realize a lot of the core theological beliefs of Christian orthodoxy were heavily reliant on Ancient Greek philosophical concepts. I mean there were many other reasons why I chose to stop believing in Christianity, but this was one of the main reasons why I couldn’t maintain a belief in this religion any longer. This isn’t something that the normal church layman is taught at their Sunday service. And so finding out how it was all developed over time in detail made me feel like I was being lied to this whole time. I found it all to be disingenuous.

[@Brownyman]

In other word, Yaldabaoth 🦁🐍

[@AutumnleafMind]

THIS is brilliant, thank you so much for verbalizing the syntax i only had intuition over

[@befeleme]

The whole life is suffering. So if someone created it, he must have been evil.

[@E-1K]

Git here from my enjoyment of Sledge's Esoterica; found other stuff here I'll watch next. Kudos.

[@nono9543]

Any God that demands worship from its followers is not the one true God. Why desperately crave the validation of your servants? That's not love.

[@SawarimHaqq]

He does not demand worship because He seeks validation, rather it's the proper state of affairs. The dependent and insufficient should depend on the Independent and Self-insufficient.

[@randomguyoninternet1183]

@@SawarimHaqq I've heard both Christians and Muslims refer to God as independent and self-sufficient, but that just begs the question: Why would he even create the universe and humanity to begin with? What use is humanity to a perfectly self-sufficient being? Do we exist to fulfill some need or desire? If so, then God is not self-sufficient. If not, then what motivation could such a being have for creating anything?

[@patrickday4206]

Look at the hideous nature of the angels surrounding God and you will realize that he is a scary monster just like the angels covered in eyes and mouths

[@jenathent4840]

​@@patrickday4206 Yup he is the host of all demons, the container and the master of all demonic.

[@KBird204]

I really enjoy the idea of Tulpas across works of fiction and some belief structures. They are autonomous, conscious beings born from collective thought or belief. I enjoy it as a narrative device, because it would be cool to see a world where the world’s god(s) only continue(s) to exist and draw power from continued belief. This can lead to lots of different possibilities for narratives- where a god is necessarily despotic and forceful (because it wishes to guarantee its existence/power). Then, when the people become aware of this belief condition, some rise up to try and overthrow the system and presumably free humanity from this status quo. Do they try to have an ideological war, where they try to wane and shake belief, thus making the god weaker? Would it be safer to leave things as is? Or, do they create a tulpa of their own? Would that be wise- after all, that tulpa may come to the same conclusion.. Maybe the reigning god isnt even the original one, and was overthrown in a previous war? Or, what if the real deity was killed or subdued by a tulpa who became sufficiently strong, and now feasts on humanity as a false, parasitic god?! I love that idea for something: a game, a book series, comics, anime. The possibilities are endless!

[@mrchris84]

Yahweh vs God point.. you guys nailed it on the specifics of the terminology.

[@matejoh]

The 'stache isn't the reality we want, but its the reality we need.

[@dakotacole3713]

Sometimes the greatest truths are the hardest to deal with.

[@NicoleDickensNicoleDL]

42:01 that Jesus rode into the city on the donkey has total new meaning to me now.