Could a Modern German Tank Group Win the Battle of Stalingrad?

Welcome back to Parry This Alternate History! Join us in this captivating alternate history scenario where a modern German tank group enters the Battle of Stalingrad in 1943, changing the course of World War II. Our video explores the clash between advanced technology and historical warfare, reshaping the 20th-century narrative.
Other Alternate History Battles: • Alternate History Battles
🌟 Explore the pivotal Battle of Stalingrad in 1943.
🌟 Witness the clash of eras with modern German tanks.
🌟 Dive into the historical context of this iconic battle.
🌟 Experience the battlefield as modern and historical forces collide.
🌟 Discover the far-reaching consequences of a hypothetical German victory.
Don't miss this intriguing alternate history scenario! Subscribe, like, and share to explore the profound influence of pivotal moments on our world's history. Join us in pondering the "what-ifs" that could have reshaped our past. History is more than facts; it's a canvas of possibilities.

[@VictorianTimeTraveler]

This is just off the top of my head but I think the best use of a modern armored company would probably be to reinforce the hungarians on the right and assisting them in a push to encircle the city. Rather than sending them into the city itself. That would be minimalizing their advantages

[@handlesaresuperghey]

Well put. I literally forgot about the Hungarians.

[@lontongstroong]

Or used to stop or seriously harass the counter-encirclement of the Soviets.

[@TouringWolf42]

Even under the best circumstances there's no way they could meaningfully change much, a well placed mine could disable any tank, and considering how heavily Stalingrad was bonbed on a daily basis, I'd even say that they would be a liability.

[@barksdalehales438]

If this force is trapped in the surrounded forces, it would not change anything. If it was added to the relieve force then it could have made a difference.

[@lontongstroong]

Or used to halt the encirclement (deployed along side the Hungry Magyar, Romanian, and Italian armies at the outskirt of the city) before it happened.

[@davidkinsey8657]

The best use of a modern German armored group would have been after the Germans were surrounded. If they appeared in the city they could have led a breakout attempt (against Hitler's orders) or if they appeared outside the city they could have spearheaded the relief force and rescued the beseiged 6th Army.

[@barksdalehales438]

They couldn't go against Hitler's orders. He absolutely rejected any breakout .

[@kevinkocher9347]

@@barksdalehales438you missed the point of his statement

[@brucesim2003]

Several questions: 1: Where in Stalingrad was the tiger used? From What I can find, the 1st use of tiger in the area was in January 1943 in the Caucasus. There were never any at Stalingrad. 2: The size of the group you described is essentially a battalion - a unit that doesn't have the logistical ability to support itself for very long at all. Where are they getting their required stores? 3: Considering the German army hasn't seen significant action since 1945, how did this unit become battle hardened? Battle hardening requires a battle, does it not? 4: Why would the modern German soldier fight for WW2 Germany. Nazi Germany is the antithesis of modern German society. And a general observation: The LAVs (anything but the Leopards) are going to be almost as easy to knock out as WW2 LAVs. Attrition is going to render this unit ineffective fairly quickly, especially if used in the city. The Leopards will last longer, but when the ammo runs out, they'll be mobile roadblocks.

[@Wolfen443]

Why not, they could see this as part of the current Western-Russia conflict in the Ukraine, is a little farfetched, but for soldiers who have been denied the ability to go all out for so long is possible they could do that.

[@brucesim2003]

@@Wolfen443 So you're saying that they would think Germany beating the Soviet Union would lead to a better world than the one they've come from? You are right about one thing. It is farfetched. Although I have asked before - certain cultures aside, would the world have been radically different if Germany won in the east, and stalemated in the west? Sure, the cold war front line would have been further west, but the cold war would have been shorter. As soon as the minister of funny moustaches leaves the scene, the regime more or less collapses under it's own weight. 1989 in the 60s or 70s.

[@panzerdeal8727]

Point. Lack of fuel will stop any motorized unit.

[@josephahner3031]

The Puma IFV is highly survivable and has thermal optics. If what you say were true then the M2 Bradley IFV would have been cut to pieces by Iraqi tanks in 1991.

[@brucesim2003]

@@josephahner3031 There are 2 differences. 1st: The fighting we are talking here is city fighting. Iraq, by and large, was not. 2nd: The Soviets were competent troops, lead by reasonably competent (vs the previous year, in any case) leaders. The Iraqi's were neither of these.

[@Bass_Playa_Two_Point.O]

The scale of the battle and the nature of the terrain makes it doubtful that any operational difference would occur.

[@knightingale9833]

You had the modern German tank group joining the battle already months into it? They wouldn’t be able to win the battle, by then the Soviets were already putting in motion their strategy of encircling and cutting off the German forces at Stalingrad. The modern tank group likely would have been able to break out and save the 6th Army from being captured, but the sheer number of Soviet forces being thrown at them would have been far too great for them to defeat with what ammunition and supplies they want into the battle with.

[@nikobellic5198]

In the end, i don't think it would make too much of a difference.

[@timwaeyaert8339]

I think the largest point that was missed was the themal/night vision would make an immense difference. The scout vehicles with the ability to scout/engage/disengage at will with almost zero chance for the soviets to retaliate would be a massive advantage. This would only require fuel, which they could get, and little to no ammunition expenditure.

[@brucesim2003]

How are they engaging if they aren't expending ammo? In the rubble of the city, thermal imaging would lose a large chunk of it's advantage. Ranges are fairly short. On the outskirts, they may be better, being able to see the front line at night, but other than artillery observation, what could they do that wasn't being done during the day by existing forces?

[@ekulzonum]

Hey man, Im loving your videos, Ive got a suggestion: Napoleons Grand Armee goes up against the Union in 1864, replacing Robert E Lee's Army of Virginia in a bid to save the Confederacy

[@bobguylikescheese9878]

Napoleon wins no contest, like its not even close.

[@michaelhenry6712]

​@@bobguylikescheese9878On shear numbers, maybe... HOWEVER we are talking about 50 years of technology and strategic advancement since Napoleon's time. Breach loading firearms, 5x the range, far more superior artillery and trench warfare. Napoleon gets crushed.

[@bobguylikescheese9878]

@@michaelhenry6712 You are forgetting discipline, moral, training. The forces that fout in the American civil war were not trained very well and there officers were not nearly as good. There Calvary was mostly dismounted infantry with breach or lever action rifles. This ment that there was no need for the union army to train for square formation, the very nummurus and good nepolonic lance and saber cavalry would get very good charges and route large portions of the union army. Speaking of technology, there were breach loading cannon and rifles used by the union, but the majority would have been muzzleloaders with no firing speed increase over Napoleonic infantry. As per the increased accurate range of a rifle, the average engagement range of both wars was about the same. The rifles at the time had a much sharper rate of drop compared to modern rifles, much past 100 yards the bullets would quickly drop. This could be accounted for, but that requires training witch the Americans didn't have. Napoleonic cannon gunnery while smoothbore would have been much better and more nummurus then then the American artillery witch was mostly smoothbore its self. Inconclision, the Napoleonic army was better trained, better lead, more nummurus, had for all intensive purposes about equal in technology and possessed fantastic Calvary and artillery. In all categories the nepolonic and American armies would have been at worst equal in any category and usually with a major edge to the Napoleonic army.

[@kiakaha307]

​@michaelhenry6712 bro Napoleon was feared for his strategies and for his improvisation mid battle. We see time and again Southern generals out maneuver better equipped and numerous union units. Napoleon may lose a large portion of his force but he will dominate any battle field

[@user-ig3el6zt6c]

Well being they actually had a navy. I don't doubt the French would lose

[@DeutzFarmer96]

Excellent video, as always. Enjoyed this very much.

[@pyeitme508]

Interesting, wish for if 21st century M1 Abrams tanks, Bradley IFVs, MRAPs, Humvees & so on during the Battle of Kasserine Pass in 1943AD.

[@npc.no1]

Honestly this should have been the battle of krisk

[@basiliohernandez5111]

I love the hypotheticals this can get into. A pair of AH-64D Apaches at The Battle of the Somme, a flight of F-15s already on patrol at Pearl Harbor, USS Texas supporting the C.S.A., the Texians at the Battle of the Alamo but with .45-70 singleshot rifles and SAA revolvers instead of what they had.

[@Tracer_Krieg]

There's a serious issue with this. Unless you make the modern tank group crewed by nothing but Neo-Nazis and Skinheads, the modern day German would refuse to assist their WW2 counterparts just on moral and ideological grounds. In fact, if stuck in this situation, they might have to actually fight their way through German and Soviet lines to reach Turkey, where they could surrender themselves to the British in Mesopotamia.

[@user-ig3el6zt6c]

Uhh. The modern German would be aware of what the communist would do to civilians of conquered territory and soldiers regardless of being national socialist. And would join out of mere survival

[@covertcounsellor6797]

The Bundeswehr troops would be very conflicted. Great storyline for a movie, actually!

[@AJ-pc5ln]

And they would join Communist Soviets? Yeah okay lol.

[@soulbreakerthelastmanalive]

​@@user-ig3el6zt6c The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

[@Blox117]

so you're saying modern germans are kvckolds?

[@user-co8fp6td2b]

Got an idea for you, 7th and 3rd US Fleets, modern day against Imperial Japanese Navy.

[@carlbirtles4518]

There was a movie in 1980 about a late 20th century aircraft carrier travelling to December 1941 called “The Final Countdown”.

[@Wolfen443]

Naval simulation channels have done that to death, the Poor Japanese Navy have been targeted so often by all modern combinations of modern navy forces that is a punch line. The difference is the rate of fire power, range of attack and accuracy that makes the smaller but more improved modern warships and aircraft impossible to beat by a navy of WWII.

[@441cessna]

I doubt it. Tanks are not intended to fight in urban close quarter settings. To easy to ambush and Tanks work best in open areas.

[@bardyjones5759]

Very good! The first that might have really changed history.

[@gavincourchesne4564]

Saturation by artillery fire defeats anything. It's also soviet doctrine.

[@NickZhukov]

nimber of rounds of fire before the need of replacement of gun (1000, as i remember). In same time, all types of anti-tank mines were available that time. Same with propelled guns of large calibers. Narrow, full of crushed bricks and concrete streets. Luck of dridges. Moody soil on spring and autumn (what a good stuff for overweighted tank). Freezing cold winter and Extremal heat on summer. That "Leopards" will be not a sitting duck, but normal ti hit target...

[@kom23a]

A very interesting thought but i am not quite sure your use of Them in the dense Urban terrain of the city would have the same power as you hope no matter how superior a Force it would quickly start to face the grinding attrision of MOUT I think it would come far more in hand either in the start of the operation to get the germans inside the city far before it could be fortified and reinforced to become the symbolic struggle it became or at the end where it could shore up the defences of the german flanks to either slow or halt the soviet counteroffensiv this is a unit that was made for the open plains where it would roame with godlike optics, mobility and overwhelming firepower

[@covertcounsellor6797]

I agree. I would have thought the dense urban environment of the City would have been the worst for the Leopard 2s and Pumas. I would have thought a demonstration in the City, followed by deploying them to reinforce the Romanians and Hungarians on the flanks would have been the optimum. Whether five MBTs and 10 IFVs on each flank would have been enough to blunt Zhukov’s pincers is a question. Obviously, the modern German officers would have studied the battle as part of their education, so would know exactly where to position their men.

[@panzerdeal8727]

A battalion of modern Rail road Engineers [ construction unit] would be MUCH more useful. GET the SUPPLIES forward. This just burdened the Germans with another battalion to feed, and nothing to feed them with.

[@revanati222]

Stalingrad was probably the worst scenario that tank group would be deployed. No doubt they would see a dramatic increase in their ability in combat, but the battle was an attritional grind. Unless the modern force could be completely supplied (which the germans weren't) it's combat ability would be blunted severely and the losses they could have inflicted on the Russians would have dropped dramatically, essentially putting the modern force in the same position as happened in the original battle. We aren't talking about a short and limited battle within the city either, the entire campaign stalingrad was part of was an immense effort across the southern front. Sure, the modern force might be able to secure the city in the right circumstances, but the subsequent Russian counter-offensive was what doomed the German force.

[@jaggedskar3890]

Most people have no idea of the scope of this battle. 600,000 Germans and over a million Russians were KIA in this single battle. 10 modern tanks and a handful of modern AFV's would hardly have been noticed.

[@rainy619]

The problem is that eventually they'd run out of fuel or ammunition, or be damaged with no spare parts to make repairs with. So there'd be a lot of shock and awe at first, but this tank group would very quickly be worn down, and then the battle would proceed like it did in real world history.

[@baraka629]

4:12 wrong tank, m8. that's a KF51 you show while talking about the Leo 2.

[@cynwraeth1943]

Considering we are only teleporting the modern armored group, and not the accompanying logistical system, by the end of a single week the modern tanks would be out of ammunition, and since there would be no way to resupply, they would he useless almost immediately.

[@RustyDust101]

There are loads of caveats to this scenario. 1. Requires fascist tank troops trained on the modern equipment. Otherwise modern German troops would simply refuse the orders, and break out. 2. If 1 is fulfilled, all ammo and support would also have to be available. Otherwise after the first few engagements every vehicle from the modern tank group would at best be pretty, mobile, but otherwise useless vehicles without firepower. At worst, broken down without spare parts without any chance to get them working again, because the production capabilities simply hadn't been developed yet. 3. Assuming the first two points were satisfied, the command structure would have to understand the tactics required for urban combat with such vehicles. Ie, not only the basic handling of the equipment, but how to use it effectively in such a situation. Simple slugging matches, or even house to house combat would pretty much eliminate the pros of the modern equipment. 4. Once all three previous points were implemented you'd have to bind the radio of the modern group into the outdated equipment from the past. Sounds simple, but definitely isn't trivial. Without that, orders simply couldn't be forwarded with any precision. 5. A modern tank groups most likely efficient use would have been to pierce the rear defense of the Soviet troops to cut off supplies, and in turn force an encirclement on the Soviets. Sending a modern tank group into a city without sufficient IFV/AFV, and infantry support knowledgeable of their capabilities and limitations would still result in non-replacable losses. So those would have to be part of the definition of "modern tank group".

[@russman3787]

I'll be honest I'm not sure how impactful a modern armored group would be at Stalingrad. Stalingrad really wasn't a suitable battle for tanks, and a modern MBT is still very vulnerable in close quarters urban combat. Satchel charges, mines, or simply becoming overrun are still threats. The PUMA IFVs and Fennecs would be vulnerable to even ww2 era anti tank weapons; they aren't intended to protect against AT guns. 10 Leopards is a drop in the bucket by ww2 standards; we can see historically that a few powerful vehicles aren't enough to change the shape of large battles; at Kursk, the small number of Tigers, Panthers, and Elefants were not enough to have a decisive impact. Given that Stalingrad is unsuitable for tanks in the first place, I'm not sure modern armor would have such a massive impact as you seem to think it would. And that's not even considering the logistical issues; do they have spare ammunition? What about fuel, parts, and other supplies?

[@Johnman1204]

This'll be interesting

[@Leopard-ej7wp]

Hey mate i love the videos very much but i do have one what if i would like to see. What if in the prime of the industrial revolution countries managed to somehow find blueprints for modern systems and technologies we use today to see if they can somehow manage to reverse engineer or understand the blueprints in order to change the course of history or something along the lines. like what if the brits could find the blue prints for modern battleships back in the revolutionary war could they possibly manage to build said battleships with the resources they had at the time?

[@josephahner3031]

If you added a modern German mechanized group the ultimate result of the Battle of Stalingrad would not have changed. The only difference would be that the Soviet 62nd Army would have been driven into the Volga River and the city of Stalingrad would have been taken with far fewer casualties for the Germans. This would not change the overall strategic picture for the Eastern Front since 6th Army actually did achieve it's strategic objective in the battle which was to reach the Volga River and deny the Soviets use of the river as a communication and transportation artery and to establish a strong blocking position on the Don River. The goal of the wider operation Blau was to seize the Caucasus region and the Soviet oil infrastructure there.

[@lontongstroong]

Would like to propose another what-if still centered in armored unit - what would happen if US-Iraq War (1991) era Hammurabi Division got time slipped to Baghmom in year 1401 to defend the city against Hulugu's Mongol army. If you think this is still ridiculously overkill, you can consider just one brigade or even a regiment (with an attached artillery battalion).

[@patrickrobinson7541]

I believe this is probably the most lob sided one I’ve seen lol but I’m excited to watch it

[@handlesaresuperghey]

The army rangers at the alamo wasn't lopsided enough?

[@patrickrobinson7541]

@@handlesaresuperghey nah I think putting modern German leopards against t-34s is a little more lob sided than that. It’s like 73rd easting (except Stalingrad isn’t a desert) but even more lobsided

[@VunderGuy]

The word logistics or attrition means nothing to you.

[@VunderGuy]

It's not though. WW2 munitions aren't that different from modern day and while not as efficiently, in this instance, the Leopards get mauled ultimately, but especially if they're used as a no nothing like you used them.

[@patrickrobinson7541]

@@VunderGuy haha okay there’s no need to assume my understanding of the English language. While I think you do make a good point, I think it’s a bit misguided to not assume that the leopards already have as much ammo and fuel as they need to get the job done, I think when this scenario was considered(and in the minds of most people) we assume that logistics aren’t a problem for the leopards. And as for attrition I don’t think that would be a problem if the Germans quickly capture the city. Also WW2 t-34 tank munitions are a LOT different than modern day German Leopard munitions.

[@stargatefan10]

This would be very fun to see. In the end, i'm sure logistics would would be the downfall either way.

[@danielfilippini5606]

Interesting concept but what if both sides were brought up to date, would the outcome be the same ?

[@captainamerica6525]

What would happen? Maybe this: The modern German armor and infantry would probably save the WW11 Germans from encirclement and help with a withdrawel. After a meeting with Von Paulas and his senior staff and the situation explained the entire group would retreat and head towards Germany picking up German units along the way. Hitler and his government would be deposed in short order.

[@Dare_To_Game]

A very interesting scenario. I would rather see a Modern polish Tank Group stopping the German Invasion, that could be a fun video.

[@tomriley5790]

Unlikely to make much of a difference, Germany was invading from oneside, Russia from the other - just as the British (and the Poles themselves) assessed in 1939 Poland could not be saved.

[@williambuchanan77]

A modern German tank unit would probably refuse to take part in this battle, they have better moral standards nowadays.

[@darrenskjoelsvold]

Odds are the people in the modern tanks would not fight for the Axis forces because of the ideology of the Axis and modern Germans are strongly against that ideology. Odds are they would have found an area to hold up and hold out until they could figure out how they went back in time and if they had any way back. If not then they would try to not mess up the timeline too badly.

[@KanJonathan]

Looking back TIKhistory's Battlestorm Stalingrad E10*, if they were at 16th Pz Div on 23rd August 1942, they might reach Volga even eariler and attack form north side of Stalingrad, then only lightly defended by NKVD and militas, even counterattack by 2nd Tank Crop on next day could had easily beat off in this timeline, but by the time, the uptimers might ran out of ammo. *kzbin.info/www/bejne/oYHYZ3aon8acaqs

[@richardwolf8024]

The modern German Army doesn't have any battle hardened soldiers. They haven't fought anybody in decades, not that anyone is complaining. Yes, their weapons and vehicles would be superior ro anythng the Russians have, but. They're going to run out of 120mm rounds PDQ. While the Leos are more or less impervious to period Russian ATG weapons, the APCs and recon vehicles are not. Fighting in Stalingrad was more an infantryman's war than a tanker's. Yes the Leos would be useful knocking out T-34s and strongpoints, at least until they run out of ammo. Dunno if WW2 Germany made rounds in 120mm size, but maybe they did. They certainly could. But if they had to begin making them, it would take time to make them, and then the rounds have to get there. I'm thinking their best use would not be inside Stalingrad, but rather in a flanking maneuver to encircle Stalingrad and cut off Russian supply. Whether the force given would be capable of it, and then holding off the ensuing counterattacks, is questionable.

[@covertcounsellor6797]

Sound analysis, Richard. I think that’s a common feature in this kind of alternative history speculatory scenario . What happens when the ammo runs out? It especially applies in the “USS Nimitz at Midway or Pearl Harbour Scenario”, where jet fuel also comes into play. Bottom line is that, after the initial shock of the modern forces’ arrival wears off, there is the challenge of the WW2 industrial base having to re-tool to manufacture the ammunition/jet fuel/spare parts/modern lubricants. Basically, your modern troops are going to be offline, presumably being used as trainers and technical advisors until the new stream of supplies comes on stream.

[@user-ig3el6zt6c]

Germany sent troops to Iraq

[@richardwolf8024]

@@user-ig3el6zt6c Medical personnel or combat troops?

[@user-ig3el6zt6c]

@@richardwolf8024 extensive joint cooperation with American personal since the early 50s

[@Riceball01]

Germany during WWII might have made 120mm shelss but they wouldn't be the same 120mm rounds used by the Leopards. Any 120mm rounds Germany might have made would have had the same diameter but the length and size of the shell casing would have been different and probably wouldn't have fit in the Leopard's gun's breech.

[@danielramsey1959]

The Russian forces would use hidden tank traps, destroying the tank treads.

[@alexius23]

Robert E. Lee & the Army of Northern Virginia vs Napoleon & the Grand Armee

[@michaelhenry6712]

50 years of technology and strategic advancement for Lee and Lee was known as the "King of Spades" for his engineering background and ability to build fortifications. Napoleon loses hard. Research Cold Harbor and Spotsylvania Court House.

[@Wolfen443]

Why, France was like England closer too side or even intervene in the U.S. Civil War alongside the Confederates. In real history the European Alliance of France, Spain and Britain out together forces to take back the New World or parts of it. The Spanish in the Caribbean supplied, and the British transported the French forces under Emperor Maximillian in their invasion if Mexico in 1863. There records of the Confederacy reaching out to the Europeans for collaboration and if possible military alliance.

[@alexius23]

@@Wolfen443 A significant number of English & French leaders would have enjoyed a much weaker US. The key factor was the average citizen in France & the UK would never fought a war to support slavery.

[@Wolfen443]

@@alexius23 , the Confederacy had to give up slavery or find ways to phase it out. That was unlikely at that time I agree.

[@alexius23]

@@Wolfen443 Agreed, even in the 1950’s &1960’s parts of the South fought. to keep remnants of slavery..

[@UnionAndroidSRboi]

Now it became Battle of Adolvgrad

[@adamstrange7884]

Don't think the tank group would stop either Front that trapped the 6th Army...

[@tcofield1967]

One battalion of armor is not going to make much of a difference in a battle like Stalingrad. Reinforcing the 6th Army wouldn't have done much since the 6th Army, in and of itself, was not in any immediate danger until later in the battle. The Soviets concentrated their offensive power to the north and south of the city and attacked the Romanian, Hungarian and Italian positions on both sides to surround the 6th Army. Placing the modern armored unit in with that 6th Army would have just led to them being surrounded as well. Since 1942 German Logistics had no means of resupplying a modern fighting force it would have been rendered combat ineffective probably a lot faster than a normal German unit from 1942. How the battalion could have been effective was in Von Manstein's attempt to relieve the 6th Army in December of 1942. The advanced optics and infrared sensors of the Leopards and Marders would have been an advantage compared to the primitive optics of the Soviets at the time and there is a chance that they could have led a group to relieve 6th Army but even then it would have been (ultimately) a Soviet victory. Even a brigade sized unit would have had little effect in the surrounding of the German forces. The Romanian and Italian forces literally fell apart when hit by the Soviets and the few tanks of a modern unit would have maybe given them some pause but there weren't enough to actually stop the envelopment of 6th Army. The biggest advantage that would have been possible is the technological advancements Germany could glean from the equipment and their incorporation into the upcoming Tiger and Panther tanks. If there was time to do it.

[@15halerobert]

I think that with nothing more than a unit the size of the modern troops, even the vast superiority of the modern unit any help they might have given would have to arrive by October 42 at the latest. After that the destruction of the city and the huge number of soviet tanks in the sweeping counter attack would negate any advantage provided by the modern troops. Quantity has its own type of Quality. Even with a 70 year gap.

[@HenryKobyla1407]

Love these alternate history video. Always a really fun way to explore history.

[@adamstrange7884]

The tank group wouldn't make much of a difference in the city fighting, the might help the 6th army break out but thats about it.

[@Wolfen443]

Fun fact, taking Stalingrad at that high cost was only going to make further gains even less likely. Actually, Germany had to win in all 3 key cities Leningrad as well, especially Moscow to really push to the breaking point the Russians.

[@ARIES5342]

That brigade would make little difference! Three divisions, at that battle, maybe.

[@brucesim2003]

It's not even a brigade. It's a battalion at best.

[@davidsteinberg9523]

The tank group you outline (10 modern tanks plus supporting smaller armor) would NOT have prevented the German defeat at Stalingrad. The Red Army would have simply continued its tactics and strategy of overwhelming the Germans and depeleting their resources; a finite resource of futre tech would have delayed, not prevented, the eventual German surrender.

[@craigmorris4083]

Well...probably not because of the factors that plagued the Germans. I hope that you took them into account.

[@craigmorris4083]

I see that you did not. So very sorry about that

[@rubiepie1158]

Still no. Because it's not about best is about Logistics why Germany loses Stalingrad in the end. Even without Modern tanks they able to take Stalingrad but was encircled in the end. Because of lack of manpower, logistics and fuel.

[@panzerdeal8727]

A modern AIRBORNE unit, maybe. Placed on the east bank of the Volga to cut off reinforcements...

[@lontongstroong]

Maybe modern construction engineer battalion is more fitting

[@Alph413]

Isn’t there a game where you can simulate this…? Keep me posted if you do it…

[@leglo4996]

And what if one of the 62.4 tonnes leopards get stuck how will they get unstuck

[@The_germanArtist]

People are alowed to have good dreams

[@easytanksgaming3238]

Almost all of modern MBT's used in doctrine - and the doctrine says that tanks do not engage enemy tank in close range. It should know about enemy location day before battle, then seek targets directly from 2-4 kilometers and strike them, being covered by terrain elevations. Stalingrad battle is eeeeeextremely close quarter combat for everyone, including tanks. And u just didnt know where the enemy and what they have - u MUST be ready to take some shots in a rear or bottom. And none of modern MBT can hold even 37mm shot from ny ww2 tank on a sides. Some obvious soviet 76mm would f0king destroy leopard in every direction except the front. And in stalingrad battle flank/bottom shots are most popular. So leopards just shouldnt enter the city at all, it pretty useless in strategic((

[@user-co8fp6td2b]

Modern German forces would need GPS for targeting. If it's available, done deal. If not you'll have to take that into consideration.

[@williamrobinson5859]

Thought they used a laser range finder that plugged into a computer to generate a firing solution

[@tomdeluca5946]

I wonder how it would have done against the forces trying to encircle the germans also the battle started in 1942 not 1943 i wonder however if they would really support the nazis

[@andyhall9721]

Are you made of spare parts?

[@alexG106]

lol the addition of a definitely NOT battle hardened German Armored Group into the 6th Army would not have been a game changer. While having a fresh armored force would be a boon, in the context of the Stalingrad battle which reduced armored divisions to WWI style attritional battles, is going to have hilarious consequences, the mechanical logistics alone means that as soon as an armored vehicle is disabled, or suffers a breakdown, it cannot be fixed. In addition, the 6th Army was already low on ammunition and food as it was BEFORE the Soviet counter attack. That’s why the first cases of death by starvation occurred by early December 1942. Furthermore, what kept the battle going on longer and longer was the cold hearted choice to keep feeding reinforcements into the city by the Soviet Union. This prevented the 6th army from uniting and fully protecting its dangerously weak flanks. So what do we actually have in this modern tank force? Basically a glass cannon. What can it do to change the Stalingrad battle? Well, it won’t affect the August campaign overly much because of the same logistical strain the rest of 6th army was suffering from. But the September and October city assaults are a different matter. Having these modern armored vehicles could make a difference in how quickly the Germans could get results but the reality is that they have to coordinate with infantry or they’ll be the biggest targets on the battlefield. My thoughts are that the presence of this armored group COULD favorably advance the German timetable in actually clearing out Stalingrad. But at the same time, 6th Army also had to protect its flank directly north of the city where it faces something like 3 Soviet counter attacks before Operations Uranus and Neptune. So they could be placed there where in the open they could function as intended and turn the Soviet attacks there into even bigger defeats for the Soviets. But in the end, they still don’t change the big picture and they surrender in Stalingrad at the same time or sooner. That I think is the more interesting what if. That even though this superior armored force is present, the strategic flaws of the German order of battle would not be overcome.

[@jsp7205]

The Nazi uniforms were gorgeous and would look great on the soldiers inside the Leopard tanks.

[@gabrielkaplowitz596]

No. The tank would run out of ammunition and fuel before the Soviets would run out of men and machines.

[@monarchtherapsidsinostran9125]

Do you honestly think they'd not give it fuel

[@Traveller2036]

👍

[@barryfletcher7136]

Germany today does NOT have any "battle hardened tank groups".

[@Blox117]

well no one does these days. just look at russia/ukraine, both sides are embarrassing

[@jessejames7757]

No

[@Raycheetah]

I dunno. Ten Leopard IIs with only the ammo they have on board seems to be too little to swing the whole battle at that scale. As a concentrated fighting force, they might be able to punch through Stalingrad's defenses at a given point, but the ability of the German Army to exploit that breakthrough seems limited to me. You can only push so much Scheiße through a straw. And once the modern force's ammo depleted (which, given the intensity of the battle, would happen very quickly), their usefulness would diminish significantly. Finally, to call the Leopard II "impervious" is a bit of an overstatement. You can bet that the Soviet defenders would concentrate a LOT of firepower on the new machines, and, while easy catastrophic kills would be unlikely, their defenses and exposed systems would definitely degrade over time. I think the net result would be a huge military tech boost for the Russians after the battle was won, and they secured all that juicy equipment for themselves. ='[.]'=

[@covertcounsellor6797]

I agree. I think it would only be a short period of time before you would see composite armoured, 120 mil-armed “JS-IV” tanks on the Eastern Front. The Soviets were very good at replicating technologies they “acquired” (think A-bombs and B29s).

[@champisthebunny6003]

This is a foolish preposition to begin with. Historically, Germany DID attempt to open a corridor to the 6th army. It is called Operation Winter Storm. The Germans mustered: 115,000 personnel 329 tanks 1,133 artillery guns 220 aircraft For this operation. Its commander, wanted MORE forces than he was authorized. The German effort ultimately failed and the 4th Panzer Army was forced to retreat despite making strong initial gains in the drive towards Stalingrad, with the loss of much of its armor as the end result. This reinforced Battalion of Modern German Armor, would fare no better, despite being more advanced. The Soviets had committed over a million troops to the area around Stalingrad and would find ways to destroy or disable this hypothetical German battalion sized force.

[@tomdeluca5946]

What if a modern german infantry division appeared at the battle of jena to fight against napoleon

[@user-ig3el6zt6c]

Just having night vision and optics alone would win it

[@Duke_of_Lorraine]

Easiest "nope" of the channel.

[@kennetth1389]

Ahh no. Stalingrad was a series of poor decisions from the OKH and OKW. Irregardless of the equipment, the men were bled white and starved by the decisions made by personnel nowhere near the front.

[@salkey3987]

YEET

[@ParryThis]

YOTE

[@ParryThis]

YOTE

[@Durahan82]

Break out the 6th army maybe , the battle was already lost by early October.

[@user-fc3cd6mt3d]

Why do you talk so fast?

[@Blox117]

he reads from a script and cuts/edits out the pauses

[@colegilbert673]

How about: 10 heavily armed space troopers vs 3 medieval club swingers during the second battle of the marne?

[@anastasijajelic3298]

Could WW2 tank group defeat modern Russian troops in the battle of Berlin? WTF is such stupid and incomparable comparison?

[@ZacharyDarkes]

I see you're drinking that NATO Kool-aid with those mystical NATO weapons lol.