Could NATO Kick Out Turkey (to let in Sweden & Finland) - TLDR News

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Frustration at Turkey seems to be growing in NATO, with the country seemingly willing to block the accession of Sweden and Finland & not aligned with the other NATO countries. So in this video we explain if NATO could kick out their problem member
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[@aanrrat1354]

You didn't properly explain why turkey and Russia have had 17 wars, while they did fight over influence in the Caucasus and Crimean/southern Ukraine you didn't mention the underlying reason: black sea acces. Russia throughout its history has always attempted to get out, to entangle itself in the great European trade and cultural space, to catch up. A crucial point to this was gaining acces to the black sea, the only place they could realistically get a warm water port. The last factor here is the Bosporus straight. Without it russian trade and influence could at any time be cut off by turkey, in his will the Russian tzar who pioneered this strategy, Peter the Great, wrote a sentence to be read at the coronation of every subsequent tzar. Conquer Constantinopole.

[@faeezf]

Well, the russians killed their own tzar. So..

[@pete_lind]

Kick Turkey out , it was taken in for one reason and one reason only , that reason is obsolete . All Turkeys western weapons , no spare parts , good luck with those Russian made military tech . Turkey lets Russian engineers in to inspect their NATO weapons anyway , so one more reason to kick Turkey out .

[@Melih_R_Calikoglu]

That is true. Russia is a strangely land locked country by the North Pole in the north currently leading to nowhere (may be as ice melts), the East which is too much far away from its strategic centre, the Baltic Sea exit controlled by Scandinavian countries and Mediterranean exit controlled by Turkey. IT has been vigorously fighting to get control of the latter and it must be exhaustive after 500 years.

[@aanrrat1354]

@@Melih_R_Calikoglu not just turkey as well, the UK holds Gibraltar and Egypt holds the Suez.

[@elpantheon4309]

@@aanrrat1354 egypte holding suez isn't really a problem for them since it is kind of an unaligned country like India Algeria and some other countries in south asia and north africa and south america

[@curseofpenguin]

Turkey's nato membership process isn't as simple as you told. We didn't just demand and join. Unlike other nations, Turkey joined Korean war and paid the price with lifes.

[@eneskayacan4583]

Came here to write this

[@Swede.from.Boston]

Sanction Turkey like Russia until they let Sweden and Finland in Nato.

[@gulll3076]

You are agree

[@josephmonk9041]

Korea is not on the Atlantic, it has nothing to do with NATO. The UN fought in the Korean war.

[@icup4318]

@@josephmonk9041 yeah, the UN called up on Turkeys military and promised to let them join to the UN. EU also made a similar promise and said they would let Turkey join EU after they let Greece rejoin NATO but back paddled after it's acession to NATO. EU and NATO are whole jokes tbh, and we wonder why Turkey acts like this towards us and sides w Russia more. if we want Turkey to be a part of NATO properly we should first fulfill our promises to them.

[@cagatayyavuz2786]

Military personnel numbers are not as important as "battle experience" and "tactical discipline". American and Turkish troops form the basis of NATO in this respect.

[@berkk1993]

🎉

[@shifusensei6442]

NATO's charter has provisions to defer to UN policy and procedure on issues which it doesn't explicitly address, expulsion being one of them. The UN provision requires a unanimous (except for the nation state being expelled) vote.

[@IKEMENOsakaman]

Turkey has a strategic importance geopolitically for NATO. The country is a gateway and also a fence between Europe and the Middle East. Turkey knows that NATO cannot kick them out, and is playing a game to benefit themselves (of course, every country does that, so it's not necessarily an evil thing to do).

[@erdemiskooo]

Turkey also has one of the biggest militaries in NATO and acts as bridge between russia and Europe. Losing it would be a big loss

[@SkepticalChris]

at the same time Turkey is no friend of Russia. The two nations hate each other and Turkey needs NATO more than NATO needs Turkey.

[@PerryKobalt]

@@erdemiskooo I will be glad if Turkey got kicked out of NATO and soon we will invade them from Greek brothers 🇬🇷🇬🇷🇬🇷🇬🇷

[@sueyourself5413]

@@erdemiskooo Never underestimate our racism. It's on full display over how we even view Ukraine. Kick out the Ottomans in favour of Nordics? Yeah I can see that appealing to some.

[@chrischarlton8225]

Its evil to do when its at others expense, like the lives of the fins and the sweds

[@SwedenTheHedgehog]

Dude, I am Swedish: While there is a fair bunch of misinformation (or at the very least misleading omission of information) coming from the Turkish government, mostly concerning our position on terrorism and what we think of PYD, YPG and PKK. However, even I realize that there is *no way* that NATO would drop Turkey out of the alliance; especially not for the sole purpose of getting Sweden and Finland in.

[@grumpydinosaur2347]

Agree, sweden and finland alrdy has alot of guarantees from strongest nato members and turkey even if not democratic (even if they should be according with "spirit of the Natos contract") is still far more valuable than finland and sweden. Just because black sea and borders in middle east.

[@kreb7]

I wouldn't be so sure about that if is Sweden and Finland vs Turkey especialy. you might be surprised

[@SamAertgeerts]

@@grumpydinosaur2347 Untill Turkey stabs NATO in the back when one of his dictator friends attacks a member. 💁

[@MrDanisve]

While i understand Turkey is important geopolitically. Cause of the straits into the black sea.. I dont really care for the semi dictator. They never embraced academic freedom etc... Honestly dont care if we throw out the Turks. I will allways stand by my neighbors Sweden and FInland. Greetings from Norway. But Turkey can be pushed with soft power, and its mostly Finland that support the kurds i think. I would be ok with dropping Turkey out of morals/ideology. We cannot bend to much on our values. Like democracy..

[@kreb7]

@@MrDanisve Actualy theyr is away around blocking dardanelles UNCLOS says is 12mile of territorial waters which that allows Greece to effectively block access to Dardanes to all but the smallest boats even then have to follow such an arduous trip that isn't sade

[@AcAc-fi9jf]

Turkey is also the first country that is invited to join the nato, the reason for this has a lot to do with the korean war in the 50’s. Adnan menderez was president at that time, he hasn’t even asked the turkisch parliament to send troops to korea, because he had tthe majority in the parliament.

[@lunafringe10]

The US got thrashed in the Korean War. China wanted to finish the U.S., but Stalin was against it

[@ozkansolmazjr]

At 5:52 in NATO countries you have included Greece as a NATO member country. In fact, both countries gained accession to NATO pretty much at the same time.

[@jackholler3572]

Greece left NATO with France later accepted NATO again

[@Husayn0318]

Kicking out Turkey would be a strategic blunder. NATO would lose control of the Bosporus and Dardanelles straits, which in turn would make way for Russian expansion in the Mediterranean. Not to mention, the Turks might end up joining the Chinese bloc.

[@nostro1940]

@Stue_Pidhow Iraq had the largest army in the world and look what good it did. Cannon fodder

[@nostro1940]

_turks join the Chinese_ 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂😂😂🤣😂🤣😂

[@m_cahit7952]

@@nostro1940 I hope for 21. century

[@staticgrass]

This is the main reason why Turkey was allowed in to NATO to prevent the USSR taking over a Mediterranean country.

[@neilnelson7603]

@@nostro1940 How long did it take USA and its allies to occupy Iraq? Am 100 percent sure it took Americans more than a month to do so. Iraq army lost because it was defending itself from a number of armies from different countries.

[@bertangundogdu]

Turkey joined the Korean war in 1950, just before becoming a member of NATO, and although it seems unrelated to NATO, it was actually the "price" or the "goodwill" act that Turkey paid to get into NATO. Also, even though I agree that buying weapons from Russia was a stupid move, it was a reaction to US not selling Patriots to Turkey. And Finland and Sweden has weapon ambargos towards Turkey... I am disappointed that these "details" are overlooked in the video.

[@Sadoyasturadoglu]

Thats true.

[@mirandapillsbury7885]

you are right Bertan.

[@kinga6347]

I mean every news channel has biases so its not surprising they also have a bias. Especially since TLDR has on occasion "missed" important details in videos about Turkey

[@iCarNaya]

Nobody wants to sell arms to a bully, except maybe, a bully. Like Russia.

[@JasTheKariol]

Why not embrago Turkey? It is not threatened by ANYONE. It is actually the one that is threatening others, I mean just look at the sea they want to steal from Cyprus and Greece. I would embargo a regime with the same head of state for 2 decades now (!) any day of the week.

[@SlayTYT]

It’s in the name, North Atlantic… not Middle East Treaty Organisation

[@subvet3668]

Turkey is too important to kick but a rules change for adding members should be made so that it doesn’t have to be unanimous. Perhaps an 80% threshold.

[@frederickpurcell3925]

Besides they could Russia oout of spite

[@BoxStudioExecutive]

This would severely undermine the mutual defense provision of NATO

[@thecurrentmoment]

Requiring a unanimous vote gets more difficult the more members you have, which I guess means that membership becomes less and less likely as members are added and the increase in members will inevitably slow down

[@schedarr]

That would make NATO easier to join but unreliable.

[@inflames433]

You cant force countries to be allies. They should all approve

[@steffenscheibler5849]

Cyprus isn't a NATO member, but your map shows it as one. Although Turkey being out of NATO would see that change fairly quickly as they are the (main) reason for Cyprus not being in NATO.

[@peterfireflylund]

The Turks have to be kicked out of Cyprus first, though. NATO doesn't accept countries with border disputes (even if -- as in this case -- it is extremely clear what the border is). I, for one, would very much welcome the Turks being kicked out...

[@sen_ex]

They're the main reason for many problems in that region lol, mind you they're still illegally occupying half of Cyprus since their invasion in 1974, which had more or less the same arguments Putin's invasion of Ukraine had

[@traindude80]

But I think Cyprus would have a similar case to Ukraine as why it would not be allowed in. Ukraine is being occupied by Russia and Cyprus by Turkey. So as soon as they are allowed in, they could invoke article 5 which would start an instant war.

[@cravingtuna1561]

Literally the only reason. Turkey is the source of Cyprus' border conflict and is the one vetoing their application.

[@steffenscheibler5849]

@@traindude80 An argument I have heard many times in Cyprus. But that is not how Article 5 works. Equally Article 5 also doesn't work if the NATO member being attacked starts (in the eyes of NATO) the conflict which leads to it being attacked.

[@Erakius323]

Could they be? Yes. Will they? No. Strategically, Turkey is far more important to NATO then Sweden and Finland. After all, Turkey has the ability to cut off the Bospherus Straits to all warships. Turkeys drones are currently helping Ukraine fight back. It’s Army is one of the strongest in the NATO Alliance. And Erdogen, regardless his views on economics, is politically smart enough to know that all of these factors, give him serious political leverage. He knows he can demand concessions on this matter, and he will quite likely, get them. Even if it means slowing down Finalnds and Sweden’s NATO membership.

[@davidjma7226]

Erdogan is desperate for cash. He went on his knees with his begging bowl to MBS - and got nothing other having to lift prosecution of Khashoggi's murderers. His country's central bank is broke and the Lira has cratered. Turkey is dependent on Russia for gas. Putin can turn the lights off and trash the beleaguered economy overnight. Both parties know this. I suspect he has done a deal with his Putin. Totalitarian Dictators stick together especially since Erdogan is cratering in the polls and there is an election next year. Like most Turks he is carpet trader from the souk and will behave just like one - to save himself and his family's own interests.

[@ForgottenGames]

Agree , not to mention having a cork on the Islamic Extremist side of Europe (despite them being increasingly Islamic focussed).

[@azahel542]

It would be very shortsighted to kick out Turkey. The world needs to find a way to get rid of Erdogan instead.

[@wangyi8031]

dont agree with the Army thing, size yes its big but id say the Turkey Army is the same as Iraq in 2001 big with terrible leadership , average tech and poor tactics. Turkey always lost many battles and wars even when numbers were on there side. The uk and Australia held them back in ww1, and really greece with its far smaller country and budget could match them in my opinion. You see how many Leopard tanks they lost, there just like Russia over rated. Apart from there location they have far more in common with China and Russia than USA, any country that has military coups does not belong in NATO period

[@serenaso4669]

Pretty much. Its position is too important to give up. There were rumors i actually find believeble that Erdogan would have swiftly double crossed NATO, if Russia would'nt have proven to be so deeply incompetent with Ukraine invasion. THAT tells a lot about Erdo's awareness of its importance in NATO and how far he can push his BS. His people, on the other hand, looks like are getting more and more fed up with his shanenigans...

[@iam.damian]

No matter how difficult partner Turkey often times is, it is a very strategically placed one, so it is worth having it as an ally. Not to mention that the common membership of Greece and Turkey in NATO alliance deters them from being at each other's throats all the time. And yeah, I know that there are disagreements with Sweeden, but they should be worked out, because there is a common enemy: Russian bear.

[@adrenalin4122]

Erdogan will never let sweden in. Russia will attack them hopefully 😅🎉

[@justinrozario2003]

Western scums, you'll support an islamist dictator who's pushing for genociding and annexing Armenia because "muh strategy" but nooooo Putin is the big bad!!

[@justinrozario2003]

Shame on u

[@adrenalin4122]

@@justinrozario2003 shame on your values. Stockholm 82 🇹🇷

[@justinrozario2003]

@@adrenalin4122 ok terrorist sympathiser

[@fjw-AT5145]

There is always a way. Dissolve the current NATO framework and make a new one (NATO 2.0) without Turkey and include a mechanism for kicking out troublemakers in the future.

[@lustergo]

The main reason why Turkey didn't sanction Russia is that of economy. Turkey has an even bigger energy problem than the rest of europe because we import more than 50% of our oil and gas from Russia. Not to mention the huge amounts of tourists coming from Russia and the nuclear energy plant which is being constructed right now (We are building it with Russia). It would basically mean an economical suicide for Turkey to sanction Russia.

[@bertangundogdu]

Also note that Turkey provided Bayraktar drones to Ukraine, which Ukrainien people wrote a song about, and closed off the straits as Ukraine requested. So, it’s not that Turkey sided with Russia at all.

[@casbot71]

The 80% figure was from before the invasion of Ukraine? Because Russia is spent as a power, their military _and their military equipment_ is now considered a joke, and they'll have a hard time filling any export orders due to sanctions on imports of vital components. And as for their diplomatic influence …

[@alexhennigh5242]

@@marcosolo6491 To that I says there's the fucking door genocide deniers.

[@ameyas7726]

Which basically means NATO is useless...because Russia-dependent Turkey will forever Veto anything that goes against Russian interests....Putin simply started this war to humiliate the West.

[@jonmcfarmer6954]

@@ameyas7726 No we just remove the veto rights. Anyway Finland and Sweden will join NATO and Erdogan the blackmailer will have to back down. Its all a lot of huffing and puffing from a little unimportant man.

[@selcuk7410]

This video is full of inaccuracies… First of all its such a bold claim to say for Turkey it was a marriage of convenience.. Turkey has expressed her interest for Nato membership from the beginning. However as it was originally designed solely as a transatlantic alliance, US wasn’t really willing expand Nato southeastwards. Only after the membership of Italy it actually became a matter of discussion and consequently Turkey and Greece became Nato members SIMULTANEOUSLY back in 52. More importantly, implying TR to be “in cahoots” with RUS is appalling to me and totally disregards the fact that TR was literally fighting proxy wars against RUS in SYRIA as well as LIBYA meanwhile supplying UKR with weapons even before the war breakout (I would also like to remind you that EU countries were expressing their concerns for this) And a final point, while TR has been one of the biggest supporters for the UKR membership, within NATO, some other members were dragging their feet. we don’t question their place in the alliance for their objections but when TR expresses its security concerns as a precondition for the enlargement the alliance she immediately becomes “the Russian trojan horse” TR has many shortcomings, its democracy is in shambles (hopefully it will start changing in 23), its foreign policy time to time lacks finesse and more. But I strongly believe TR is not the only party to blame for the poor status of its relationship with the west, I think keeping TR in this family is beneficial not only for TR citizens but also for Europeans and N. Americans as well because the alternative is just perpetual instability at the alliance’s southern flank. TLDR: I appreciate NATOs utility of anchoring TR to the west in these shaky times but to repair structural problems we need more empathy on both sides. … cannot believe I wrote my first ever comment on this shit

[@icup4318]

If US and NATO actually stood by Turkey in their times of needs esipecially handing over FETO I highly doubt Turkey would be like this.

[@zjeee]

@@icup4318 NATO has no agreements about handing over political opposition figures to each other. Besides EU and US are democracies you cannot just hand over individuals for political reasons. Turkey would actually have to prove that these individuals committed crimes that would constitute as crimes in the states they are currently residing. Just because Erdogan says they are BAD DUDES does not mean we can simply ship them off like that, that's not how it works in countries where the political system and the judiciary are separated.

[@zjeee]

​@UAE Emirates Turks have a really hard time to understand that there are no laws against having a PKK flag. Yes the group is designated a terrorist organization but that doesn't mean regular people aren't allowed to wave their flags. There are no laws against waving an ISIS flag either but if you're part of the group you'll get thrown into jail or extradited. It's a different system and maybe it's hard for people from the Middle East to understand the concept of freedom of speech and expression but there is a huge difference between waving a flag and being a member of a terrorist organization to them. I know a lot of Turks also could not understand why it's not a crime to burn a Quo'ran in Sweden. Different system, different laws. Freedom of expression and speech is a factor.

[@thesoundinyourhead1782]

@UAE Emirates and how does that mean that Sweden supports pkk you smart? Have you completely lost the meaning of freedom or so used to staged provocation that you think this act had some secret support from Swedish deep state?

[@samilo28]

@@zjeee there is more than enough evidence for FETO and PKK. You just need to google for 5 sec. But even he calls PKK a working Party in this video. Which is wrong. PKK is a terrorist group like FETO.

[@RiversideWarrior]

Well there is the matter of the Treaty of Vienna on the subject of treaties and a finding of "material breach" where a member who no longer holds the goals and values of other members on a treaty organization could be be subject to suspension or ejection by the other members. Setting aside the Treaty of Vienna argument there is nothing to prevent 28 of the current NATO members from voluntarily leaving under the current NATO treaty agreement (with Turkey and Hungary being left behind) and joining a new security organization along with Finland and Sweden to form a new 30 member alliance dedicated to mutual defense and security. The new organization could be called the Atlantic Treaty Organization (aka ATO) and assume the current functions of NATO. They would also need to include some new treaty agreement provisions for suspension/ expulsion to prevent future Turkey/Hungary behavior scenarios. Turkey's isolation would be fairly complete and Hungary could hangout with their troublesome Serb neighbors while the rest of the 1st World in Europe and North America moves forward.

[@folken1761]

That's more of anti Turkish rant than a proper analysis of NATO-Turkey relationship, the fact that you couldn't accurately describe the Kurdish militant as a terrorist group even though it is recognized as such by the NATO member shows a deep bias against Turkey. The fact also that it didn't seem to bother you that France a NATO member would sign a defense pact with Greece a NATO member, while the latter was on the verge of war with Turkey another NATO member is also a bit fucked up because it shows that the problem is not that Turkey is the odd member of NATO but the Christian group of NATO is behaving like a pack against the one non Christian member, which pushes Turkey to find alternatives elsewhere and use whatever means to defend its interest. THE PROBLEM IS NATO PRETENDING TO BE A SECULAR, INTEREST BASED ORGANIZATION WHEN IN REALITY IT BEHAVES ALONG CULTURAL AND RELIGIOUS LINES AND INTERESTS.

[@mackenzielamb6513]

Christians and Muslims won't ever coexist. Can't, the law is completely different between the two. Shiri law, Islamic law, calls for the death of all Christians and for them to be sent to hell to burn, I believe this is Quran chapter 4.

[@antoniosdimoulas3566]

Turkey should be kicked out of NATO, it cannot be trusted. Curds deserve their freedom, and other minorities within the Ottoman Empire.

[@illusivec]

You're conflating EU with NATO. NATO is a defensive pact. It doesn't care if it's members are "democracies" or if they are Islamists. As long as they are willing to defend other member against external threats and doesn't cause too much internal strife, everyone is welcome. Also, you mixed up the timeline for the TR's arms embargo. Turkey tried to buy US made AA systems. The US didn't allow that. Turkey said if the US wasn't selling, they'd buy from Russia. US thought this was bluff. Turns out it wasn't a bluff(surprised Pikachu face) THEN weapons ban on Turkey was implemented. Also, it's important to mention, Sweden and Finland are two of the countries that banned weapons sales to Turkey. Don't you think expecting Turkey to promise to defend SWE if they are attacked by Russia while at the same time SWE is banning weapons sales to Turkey is a bit hypocritical? I think this videos tone is a perfect example of why many westerners think Turkey is "the problem child of Europe". You wouldn't expect the UK to protect France if the France was inviting IRA members to their parliaments and allowing them to do demonstrations against the UK on their streets. Yet all of Europe is expecting Turkey to just forget about Sweden doing all of those things for PKK. You might see the PKK as brave freedom fighters but that doesn't change the fact that they are considered a Terorist organisation by UN, USA and EU. Not to mention they've killed tens of thousands of Turkish civilians since 70s in bomb attacks. This is the irony of modern Turkey. Too "oriental" for westerners, too "western" for Arabs. I think Angela Merkel put it best. EU is a Christian club. No matter how "progressive" Turkey is, it'll never be a European country nor it will ever be a "natural" member of any Christian club as you rightly said in this video. Honestly, once the Russian thread is dealt with, I wouldn't be surprised if TR left NATO on it's own and forged closer ties with Asia.

[@illusivec]

Oh also, coups in Turkey aren't like coups in other countries. None of the military coups in Turkey's history resulted in military staying in power for more than a few years at most. What happened in Turkey is, military took power, "disposed of" the undesirable political elements wether they be Islamists or communists and then they do an actual democratic election and let go of the political power.

[@mustafaozcan59]

How do you know all these stuff are u turkish

[@minerran]

Flanker, I've never heard "westerners" claiming Turkey was the "problem child of Europe" as you claim, nor do I hear anything negative said about Turkey, certainly not here in the U.S . media. If you are a Turk and are offended by comments the Europeans have made about Turkey then please say "Europeans" and not "Westerners" because that includes everybody including U.S.A, Canada, etc. Document who is saying it and how others can verify its true.

[@realtalk6195]

@@minerran US mainstream media doesn't cover Turkey too much (but US online media certainly does) but politicians, lobbyists and think-tanks certainly do. That's why they have arms embargoes on Turkey and even trying to sanction Turkey's own domestic industry. The Armenian and Greek lobby (and some Indians) were trying to get the US to sanction Turkish drones, and 28 congressmen signed their letter, just last year. Biden even signed a bill to "investigate" Turkish-made drones.

[@realtalk6195]

@@minerran If US politicians like Bob Menendez and dozens of others like him, and hundreds of anti-Turkey lobbyists weren't getting the US to crack down on Turkey's interests even though it makes no geopolitical sense and is 90% of the time counter-productive to US' own interests (AKA the US' schizophrenic foreign-policy), then the Europeans would have no room or leg to stand on to do the same. They do it because the US does it.

[@yulusar]

You completely skipped the part how Turkey fought in the Korean war and lost thousands of soldiers to get accepted into NATO

[@mateenundre1415]

Brother this is western style propaganda channel,

[@tsifty1]

My man many nations took part in the war, so there isn’t any propaganda taking place for the 5000 soldiers you send over. Pocket Change under the circumstances …

[@yulusar]

@@tsifty1 5000 soldiers?!? Nope. Turkey lost most soldiers after USA and UK in that war

[@tsifty1]

@@yulusar oh y’a Genius, what’s the number then and the source of your info. ?

[@yulusar]

@@tsifty1 History books. Or have you heard of 'google'????

[@amirhosainpirmoradi6754]

i know there are a lot of hats but i think video was so good and had some really good points keep it up👌

[@TheScalysnake]

This question was on my mind thanks, looking forward to watching it. *** Man that is some colorful history on turky.. would love an update on this

[@Solapunk]

Not a chance. They will work it out. Dardanelles straight is too strategically important. Turkey can use this as an opportunity for some favourableness. Finland are pragmatic enough to say some niceties to get this over the line.

[@TheRagingPlatypus]

Correct

[@charlotteinnocent8752]

I feel the relevance on the straights is NOT as strategical as it used to be. I feel its time to ditch Turkey.

[@kristianfagerstrom7011]

Erdogan seems to have a bigger beef with Sweden - likely due to Swedens condemnation of genocide.

[@Meoldson]

Turkey could be suspended via the Vienna Convention.

[@TheRagingPlatypus]

@@charlotteinnocent8752 Still hugely important.

[@Homer-OJ-Simpson]

1:48 you have a list of the Russo-Turkish wars. Most of those before 1800 were europe helping the growing Russia because Europe’s main concern was to weaken the ottomans. There is one war missing in the map in Crimean war of 1853 with ottomans and Europe against Russia. Europe at this point saw ottomans were weak and now wanted to container Russia. Russia lost the Crimean war

[@user-ku6bt9ob5j]

As usual Europe does, in my opinion russian should to gang up with Turkey in the past

[@davehue9517]

Turkey and Erdowan reminds one of that "fairweather" friend that just can never be counted on ...

[@larsnielsen1852]

Actually most other NATO countries don’t. They have values in common Turkey no longer shares. For example none of the others are threatening their allies with war everyday as routinely as they say good morning,

[@tonyhawk94]

Turkey is a smart country, as a French i know we often do not get along but i respect their strategic vision, something many europeans are simply lacking.

[@irfanbozkurt9194]

mostly because European citizens live inside the bubble created by the media & European academics(only on social sciences, of course). European sovereignty has been built upon some keywords like democracy and free press, hence public thinks these values are preserved by the EU and not by other countries. That's one of the main reasons why anyone would list the Jewish genocide and the Armenian genocide as the worst things happened in history, ignoring all the crimes committed by the white man: Chinese Opium wars, a controlled famine in India, Belgian invasion of Kongo, The French on Africa, ENTIRE Native American population getting killed (not even called a genocide) etc. Real-politics is lacked by EU/US citizens. Hope it won't cause so much trouble with the Russians upcoming.

[@getyourfactsstraight6120]

Well every French with knowledge in History should know that even Napoleon knew how the Turks are.

[@TunaFish556]

we do be thinkerin lol

[@getyourfactsstraight6120]

@@irfanbozkurt9194 French colonial history is full of white - washing to this day

[@MelkorPT]

@@irfanbozkurt9194 Don't even get me started on what white people did to the Neanderthals! We truly live in a bubble...

[@asdawece]

Before asking this question think about "What if Turkey was alligned with China and Russia?". Imagine Turkish drones was destroing Ukranian forces instead of Russian forces. Think about the countries neigbouring black sea. How world would look like if Turkey was hosting Chinese military bases instead of NATO military bases.

[@icup4318]

ppl just dumb tbh

[@ampulsuper]

It would be better for turkey. Europe doesnt like turks they would find better place in china iran russia 😚

[@zjeee]

@@ampulsuper Yeah let's ignore 600 years of history why Russia and Turkey have ALWAYS been rivals and constantly fighting each other for 600 years. If Turkey liked Russians they would not have joined NATO in the first place.

[@ayhanceyhan7426]

China is our 5,000-year-old enemy 😂 My ancestors defeated the Chinese armies 10 times their size with few people, we were born warriors, so we have a name all over the world

[@cobaltbomba4310]

@@ayhanceyhan7426 none had ever cross the great Wall of China since the emergence of this planet. I don't know how Turks have something to do with China thousands of miles away. I can also claim to have conquered the world by my ancient ancestors, that doesn't mean it is truth because histories are mostly fabricated and mythical.

[@emirhandemir3872]

Probably could but why to? Turkey is a great ally. It's army and geographical position is important for NATO.

[@perlovgren55]

SOLUTION : Just give Turkey an exception that states that they do not have to assist Sweden in any way in case of War and then move on and sign in Sweden and Finland to NATO. Turkey stays in NATO reinforcing the black sea area and the bospuros. Finland and Sweden joins NATO and reinforces the baltic sea and the north. = Everybody happy (Except Putin) If Russia attacks Scandinavia it is highly unlikely they will do so via Turkey since Russia already have a border to Finland and are very close to the baltic sea. Scandinavia and Tureky can continue to live happily ever after separeted from each other ......until Turkey will become a democratic state and can be accepted in to the EU. CHEERS ! Per

[@sabomarov7279]

Now why would anyone think its a good idea? Turkey is the ONLY NATO country that's DIRECTLY fighting Russia in 2 fronts: Libya and Syria, on top of fighting them indirectly in Ukraine and the caucasus. Turkey is NATO's 2nd largest army and its southern front. Is little Bulgaria going to protect NATO's south from Russia? Edit: its also worth mentioning that Turkey is why the black sea isn't a Russian lake

[@winterinvicta]

Well NATO doesn't need protection from the south... Russia cant launch and sustain a naval invasion into Bulgaria or even Romania. The only thing Turkey is doing is annoying Russia it has no purpose you can barley drive a army through turkey its too hilly.

[@sabomarov7279]

@@winterinvicta so you're willing to sacrifice NATO's second largest army because its "hilly" and "we don't need protection"? One thing I forgot to mention is do you know that the only reason the black Sea isn't a Russian lake is because of Turkey?

[@winterinvicta]

@@sabomarov7279 well your wrong its because the Russian Empire collapsed also because France and Britain are annoying.

[@joetrump2983]

That's explained NATO hypocrisy, cries about russian aggressions but it's okay for European aggressions against Libya and syria

[@robertolsson1058]

Turkey army is same shit standard like russia.

[@Emanon...]

Turkey is strategically and militarily vastly more valuable than Sweden or even Finland. Effectively controlling the Black Sea, projecting power into the Caucasus and Middle East is more important than "winning bigger" in the Baltic and North Sea.

[@Swede.from.Boston]

Sanction Turkey like Russia until they let Sweden and Finland in Nato.

[@dos3722]

As a swede i Agree ,but if Finland were to join and not sweden . The only possible russian acceptable island for Nato would be swedish island gotland . Artikle 5 for baltic states would be even Harder to achieve witthout sweden in and with Finland in ..Thats the hard fact.... that puts sweden in a very strange position. bilateral agreement instead with us uk and Other northern european countries Will be needed . Lets Face it ...turkey is to faraway from Estonia..

[@sirsurnamethefirstofhisnam7986]

Turkey causes vastly more problems for its own “Allies” and than Finland and Sweden would. One of natos biggest problems is two of its own members turkey and Greece fighting each other

[@johni9073]

Finland and Estonia in NATO can easily blockade St Petersburg by sea. The Baltic as a NATO lake is going to guarantee that Russia strengthens Kaliningrad with nukes and the like, right in the heart of Europe. What brilliant strategy from those who believe that not only Britain (and Turkey) can have stupid politicians, but Finland and Sweden too. A more intelligent bunch would have sounded all this out BEFORE going public with any moves. Incompetence by the Stoltenberg crowd arrogantly and unthinkingly trying to bounce Turkey, and now trying to cover for this incompetence with fig leaves and talk of U-turns by Erdogan, when he may not be around after elections in 2023! Luckily perhaps, the stupid MHP in Turkey with its senile leader who has never won any election other than that for leading his progressively diminishingly, marginally popular party which may well not make it into parliament next year on its own, is now touting for Turkey to leave NATO. Some nitwits even think that this issue should lead to the EU cancelling Turkey's candidature for membership, which of course, Erdogan would love. It would play straight into his hands in this game of brinkmanship as to who would cancel first!

[@user-mh6hw3ed6q]

i think Finland and Sweden will declarate pkk as terrorist organization like EU and USA did and they will get in NATO.

[@paxromana5834]

I have my issues with Turkey, but i don't think it's right (or wise) to kick them out because they have beef with Sweden. All of us have the right to deny a member from joining because we are expected to die for the sake of that new member.

[@traindude80]

An interesting irony of history is that the Russian SFSR actually helped Turkey get to a more powerful position after WWI. While Mustafa Kemal (later Atatürk) was organizing his resistance against the occupying Allies, the Turkish nationalists secured support from the newly established Russian SFSR (which was also in the midst of a civil war for control of their country). Lenin viewed Mustafa Kemal's campaign as a way to contain expansion of the west's sphere of influence in the middle east. Russian support of gold and weapons greatly helped the Turkish nationalists in their military campaigns against Greece and France and the Red Army even helped secure Turkey's gains in the east, following the Turco-Armenian war. Once the Treaty of Laussanne was signed, this saved Turkey from being an impoverished rump state in central Anatolia (per the Treaty of Sevres), to securing its full independence in its current borders (except for Hatay, which joined in 1939). Ironically it also helped Turkey kick the Allies out of Constantinople (Istanbul) and put the Turkish straits under Turkish control again. Roughly 20 years later, Stalin's expansionist policies would be set back due to the support his mentor and predecessor offered the Turks. Also a quick addition, Turkey heavily westernized in the interwar period. As president, Atatürk greatly reformed the country and transformed it from an Islamic monarchy to a secular, modern, western state - which is why Turkey is light years ahead of the Middle East in terms of societal norms and culture. So the Turkey that joined NATO in 1952 wasn't the same country that fought the Allies in WWI, it was seen as a potential ally of the west. Turkey's only real setbacks with NATO was its troubled relationship with Greece (Aegean islands and Cypurs) and more recently Erdogan trying to socially set the country back by 500 years.

[@ersinhuseyinoglu7872]

True, Soviet Russia helped Turkish independence War and later the young republic. It is still possible to see the effects in Turkey in terms of several established industrial facilities and even some statues (emphasizing the workers' efforts). It came to stop when they increased their 'interest' in straits and politics in Turkey. Sometimes i wonder what would happen if the relation between Turkey and Soviet Russia stayed better with no hidden agenda against each other.

[@theyeening]

>Occupying Allies Yes, because Greeks and Armenians were definitely "occupying" their own indigenous homeland...

[@traindude80]

@@theyeening Since you seem to purposefully miss the point, here is the definition of "occupation" from Miriam-Webster: "the holding and control of an area by a foreign military force" The term "Occupying Allies" refers to the militaries of the UK, Greece, France and Italy. NOT the people of non-Turkish ethnicity that live in the region. So yes, Greece (the Kingdom of Greece, so you don't get it twisted) was occupying east Thrace and west Anatolia, since they were part of another country.

[@peterfireflylund]

Yet another crime by the Communists :( Imagine how much better off Turkey would have been if the smart parts didn't have the morons of Anatolia to drag them down.

[@peterfireflylund]

@@traindude80 Oh, alright, so by "occupying allies" you actually mean the people protecting the Greeks and Armenians against Turkish oppression? In other words, they were the good guys?

[@Aabergm]

I feel that with Turkey controlling Black Sea access they will never be expelled from NATO they like most of history are in a really really really good strategic location.

[@hieverybody4246]

And Turkey, likewise, needs NATO. They are a good match politically, militarily, and even culturally. This whole video is clickbait.

[@alikurt9771]

no they can't be expelled from n*to because its not legally possible

[@chriskalogrias926]

I'd like only to add 1 thing to that. Black sea is a closed one. Whoever wanna come outta the straits answers to greeks. I don't want this little information to be forgotten. No matter who controls that sea. We are in control.

[@hakang1331]

@@chriskalogrias926 False the Eagean see is not controlled by Greece, Greece have just Islands there. Thats why greece try to expend the see border from 6 to 12 mile but Turkey rejeceted that, it would mean that Greece could stop Turkish ships from Black Sea, and thats not acceptable. As Humans we like Greeks and Greek culture, its just politics

[@chriskalogrias926]

@@hakang1331 Well, we have islands right next to your coast, you don't suggest we don't control that sea around them do you? I am pretty sure, you can let us do that and have even special passage right forever as our very good friend and neighbour. You see who we are, it's all in your hands. We want to be smart together better. You do this for us, with assurance of undisputed passage, we do something for you on some other place. Why not solve this finally? What happened is a wake up call. We don't really hate each other, no matter how selfish we become and write hurtful things here. We can find solutions. We must, so you and we can both prosper. We both need that more than a war.

[@sultanipanj]

turkey shot down a Russian jet, something no other NATO member has ever dated to do. NATO needs it more then vice versa

[@MyLittleMagneton]

They actually CAN kick Turkey out of NATO based on the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, article 60 2.A.

[@minerran]

Turkey is a very important and powerful Nato member who also controls access to the Black Sea! We should not be talking about kicking out Turkey. Its up to Sweden and Finland to convince Turkey to let them in. It depends on how badly they want in. Other countries should not interfere. That's my opinion for whatever its worth.

[@GokhanYilmazturk]

You are absolutely right ! And this video is really shameful and absurd. I don't know who is financing this channel but it is obvious that the source of their money is not just the stupid things they sell online...

[@UltraCasualPenguin]

PKK members can't get to Finland. What else can we do to you? If you want YPG and that third group classified as terrorist groups then give your evidence to EU. Before that there's nothing we can do without making it civil or human rights issue.

[@GokhanYilmazturk]

@@UltraCasualPenguin haha are you serious? Where do you think the PKK admins live? Iraq? Syria? Nordics are heaven for them (pretty far away from Turkish jurisdiction and Turkish armies' operation range)

[@LosT4088]

Turkey controls the straits to the Black Sea, meaning easy access to Russian held crimea and other regions. So, no, Turkey accession to NATO makes sense, your video does not depict the whole story

[@redgevhere]

He actually does state this exact reason for inclusion, so obviously you didnt watch the whole video

[@balam314]

It's useful for NATO, but Turkey doesn't fit in. Also this exact point is mentioned in the video that you clearly didn't watch before leaving a negative comment?

[@thesoundinyourhead1782]

Straits are not so valuable as they used to be. Alexandroupolis port in west thrace have completely replaced it. Alexandroupolis port and eastern Balkan is the passage for defence equipment support to Ukraine.

[@chadleonidas3061]

Greece can also block anyone from going to the Black sea or getting out of it

[@paulfribbs8516]

France & England refused to side with helping Turkey upgrade pre WW1, as they wanted to carve it up as it continued to gradually fall apart! That is Why Germany stepped in to fend off the French & Poms, with the technical help they needed to modernise!

[@idontexist1681]

And they gave practically 0 modern weapons to the ottomans. Germany just wanted to block british access to india, but their battle plans failed miserably because germany's worst generals went to the ottoman empire.

[@pagarb]

There have been some big oil and gas reserves found off Cyprus and Turkey is one of the countries planning to develop this resource. If they are a big as indicated, Turkey would no longer need to buy oil and gas from Russia, which would be a big improvement in their international balance of payments and a big boost for their economy.

[@CDang-ms6dc]

Even if there is a mechanism that could be used to kick out Turkey, such an act may well push Turkey to Russia's side.

[@pezhmand3056]

​@Christina Evans neo Nazi Swedish politics ? I duno what part of the world u live in but Sweden and Finland are as close as u can come to real democracy, they value human life and rights.

[@wololoooxd3288]

Oh we are in russian side in our minds dont worry , only in physically we are in nato. We know how europeans are backstabber

[@sk8erbyern]

@@pezhmand3056 good joke

[@user-ot2yz7it7i]

@@pezhmand3056 yeah human rights by kidnapping children away from their parents and brainwashing them and giving their trauma for life. I have no idea if they are true democracy or not but they suck and should be viewed as hostile.

[@michaldenkiewicz4050]

good job turkey,sweden should not be in nato

[@buttercupwisely]

If Turkey leaves NATO, it will spell the beginning of the end of NATO

[@GeceBulusmalar]

i agree that Turkiye is pure power of nato

[@Epikindinosepikindinos]

Nato is already DEAD

[@sbd03]

@Christina Evans It could happen if Finland and Sweden hand over the terrorists they harbor to Turkey.

[@henryaybaz7409]

@Christina Evans yes, sweeden and finland need to stop supporting terrorist organnisations in middle east.

[@syarifidayat]

@Christina Evans U.S refuse selling air defence to Turkey that leading Turkey bought S-400 even get sanction from US and Greece also bought a same thing but no one give sanction on them, NATO also refuse to help Turkey built Nuclear Plant to reduce Russia influence in energy cost, even helps Gulen and PKK making chaos in Turkey. Be more realistics, it because religion but no one said it is

[@thehoogard]

Sounds weird to me that the Americans wouldn't leave a route in there (in the charters) for getting rid of a troublesome member.

[@bomb274]

Claiming to explain Turkiye’s NATO membership history but not mentioning the sacrifices and 890 casualities from Turkish army during Korea war, can be explained by malevolence or ignorance… you pick one.

[@cengizsogutlu]

Turkey sacrifice a brigade in Korea to join NATO. While Sweden and Finland enjoying neutralism

[@Pidalin]

But why? What has Turkey to do with Korea?

[@alvdansen7172]

While Sweden is being neautral (on paper) we saved millions of lives! Saved many jews and held shelter for refugees in WW2 while traying to keep the peace in a situation there we were surrounded by two enemy power houses (Hitler and the Suvjet union). We also did fight alongside the finns when the Suviet union attacked Finland (The winter war) with at least 15,000 of swedish volunteer soliders. Swedish volunteer soliders helped America in their military too and we were the only nation that were able to crack the secrets codes that contained info about Hitlers plans so we gave that info to the nations we considered to be our allies. Sweden decided to be neutral (on paper) because it was the safest way to keep innocent people from dying. That is nothing you should blame us for you idiot!! Excuse us for not wanting to sacrifice our people, we are in good terms with Nato because we help alot. We help other Nato memebers with their military tech and more so we don't need to be in war in order to show Nato what we can do, we already reach all requirements.

[@Pidalin]

@@alvdansen7172 But even before, you attacked half of Europe and took our art to Sweden. 🙂

[@alvdansen7172]

​@@Pidalin You mean the Swedish Empire? Or when we were Vikings? Everyone started war with each other for power and land at that time so it was popular. Things def changed! :)

[@Pidalin]

@@alvdansen7172 I mean when you looted Prague during 30 years war. 🙂

[@flowerchild8450]

Hmm, not sure how smart of a move that would be considering it could move them closer to Russia’s orbit which would run contrary to the goal of isolating Russia.

[@dervakommtvonhinten517]

question is how relevant russia will be in the future

[@tiaelago-oretukaumunika7017]

@@dervakommtvonhinten517 apparently relevant enough for traditionally neutral finland and sweden to want to join🤔 if the threat is russia (which it clearly is) then turkey, being the second strongest NATO country is far more valuable than the swedes or finns

[@AIArtworks45]

You underestimate the hatred between russians and turks. Not even Erdogan can sell a friendship with Russia to his people. As of now, Erdogan is more neutral than other nato countries, but turks are not. In fact, turks are so happy that Russia is beeing spanked in Ukraine that Erdogan is in a tough spot.

[@arcticwulf5796]

Question is how much is Turkey willing to choose the Russian to be under the sphere of influence of Russia. It is not like Turkey can play ball and be more cooperative to benefit itself more.

[@adhirbose9910]

Considered the fact that both Russia and Turkey are financially broke, and run by a bunch of thugs, and the historical enmity between the two, it's likely to be a match made in hell. The Russians would initially be thrilled that Turkey is no longer a NATO member, but they are not in the position to be a ( economic) alternative to the west, also without the NATO sheild the Russians will come down on Turkey like a ton of bricks! So maybe Turkey can form a new ( Islamic) alliance with Qatar ( financier) Pakistan ( nukes) Iran ( mutual dislike and awe of the west)?

[@Ironage99]

The comparison of military personnel equalling military power is totally ridiculous.

[@allenyeong4771]

Who is trying to instigate NATO to kick out Turkey to admit Sweden and Finland, NATO can add in Sweden and Finland without kicking out any country, period

[@ovuncozkan125]

When Korea war stalled, Turkey help please. When genocide happened in Bosnia because Dutch couldn't keep Serbs away or in Kosovo War, Turkey help please. When invading Iraq, Turkey please let us use airfields. When escaping Afghanistan while people falling down from planes, Turkey please hold airport away form Taliban. When Russia attacks Ukraine, Turkey please help Ukraine with drones. Turkey did more than any other nation for NATO yet this video claims it doesn't align well.

[@aldindurakovic8828]

They want the Monetary Collonisation of Turkey . The Turks can not allow that. Turkey must go it' s own way.....

[@Insertnamehereplz]

Every NATO country does their part

[@x3kuuta]

@@Insertnamehereplz Pure bs, delusional western.

[@rickversglaciers]

@@Insertnamehereplz you mean provoking

[@bobblue_west]

Turkey please the hell out of Cyprus ... Turkey, no you can't join the EU 'cos we don't want a crazy man from a predominately muslim nation messing with Europe.

[@furkanorbay6691]

some misinformation. First of all, you said Turkey doesn't fit nato however, you didn't tell the wars Turkey was in to give large support to nato. Korean war etc. You didn't tell that USA refused giving patriot air defense then Turkey purchased air defence from Russia. yet Turkey is not the first nato that pruchased russian system. Greece got the same air defence system from Russia and nobody tells anything. Moreover, where potantial Turkey-Russia war just a few years ago. You didn't even mention plane was shot by Turkey. Plus, Proxy wars between Russia and Turkey again You did not mention. In Armenia, Syria, Libya. Turkey had proxy war with Russia. You don't know anything mate sorry. Just read all of sources if you can Thanks

[@mrnorthz9373]

Bunu neden anlamıyorlar

[@Lord_Merterus]

A correction: The US did infact agree to sell us Patriots Though they did not fully accept our technology transfer requests so we ended up purchasing S400's

[@mrnorthz9373]

@@Lord_Merterus sagol kanka

[@GkTheodore]

You are the one who is misinformed! >Greece got the same air defence system from Russia and nobody tells anything. 1) It was Cyprus which purchased the S-300 system. Cyprus Is not a NATO member! 2) Then turkey started bitching about it because it said it disrupted the balance of powers! (Which is turkey's way of saying that "we hate whichever change makes it harder for us to attack neighbours")! Because it is clearly a defence weapon, they even started "spreading the word" that the S-300 could be used to attack civilian land targets in turkey! (I remember because I was talking to turks in IRC chat rooms back then! SOoo STUPID)! 3) To avoid war, a US brokered solution was followed where the S-300 would be transferred to Greece and stationed in a distance that would deprive turkey of any excuses. 4) You also "conveniently forget", that back then in the 90's, NATO was no longer seeing Russia as a threat. Not by a long shot!

[@9000giannis]

Greece got s300 air defense not s400, and it got it a long time ago.

[@froodtube]

I would take that trade. Sweden and Finland have strong militaries and recognize the concept of everyone in NATO 'being in it together' If Poland or Lithuania were attacked they would "get it" and immediately be at the ready and on board with NATO decisions. Turkey is in NATO also to deter Russia, but to deter Russia from attacking Turkey only, not so much the other way around. If Russia attacked Lithuania, Turkey would be the first to say "Well that doesn't really affect Turkey, our economy already stinks, and we are far to intermingled economically and politically with Russia to get involved" They play both sides of the fence almost as part of their culture, and if you try to do something for the common good (like admitting Sweden and Finland) they are the first to pipe up for an opportunity to say "What's in it for me?" As stated well in the video, Russia would love to snatch the Bosporous straight. Turkey is in NATO to prevent that but it is kind of a one way street for them. We can't even integrate NATO weapons into Turkey because anything Turkey has access to the Russians somehow immediately have, and a good chunk of Turkey's military is Russian weapons which aren't compatible in many aspects.

[@bambinaforever1402]

Well said, exactly my thoughts. I m from Finland. I curse stoltenberg

[@harryhatter2962]

Forget the comments and let's focus on the question and with this question it would seem that NATO itself as a group of aligned nations with a common goal to defend each other and the incidence that MOST NATO members in Europe are also members of the E U and it makes sense that the community of nations SHOULD be able as a bloc to vote within rules as to whom they want and don't want in it. This allows stability , consensus, economic co operation and every thing else based on common goals and those who would be voted out would be those countries that don't agree with the rules or goals and the nations invited in BY vote would be those that agree and therefore a more affiliated and progressive state can move forward to become on political union. THIS is how most things are done , Turkey should not consider it is more special.

[@jackholler3572]

You contradicting yourself dude. Being a NATO member is no ones birth right and a country should not be a safe heaven for the terrorists that are targeting the terrotorial integrity of another ally. Period

[@izetsalihbegovic115]

It is ridiculous that we are even discussing this. Turkey is not thinking it is more special. All they asked was to ban the people they consider terrorists. Like USA would ask to ban support to Alkaida. So it is totally legit request. What we have here is double standard applied to Turkey.

[@jhonbus]

It's an interesting one, and I have to confess when Turkey started making a fuss about this the thought did cross my mind! Sweden and Finland joining benefits the rest of the alliance as much as keeping Turkey as a member, and in terms of long-term political outlook they're both far more closely aligned with the rest of the alliance than Turkey is too. But this isn't some sort of high school cool kids gang and the minute a member gets kicked out for exercising its right to object to a new member, which is enshrined in the articles of the alliance then the whole thing just falls apart. What's the point of having rules if you're going to kick member nations out because the rules make it inconvenient for them to be in? Who's to say if, for example, Poland gets attacked, we won't just kick them out too because we don't fancy a war right now, thanks? And look at it from Turkey's point of view - they've been in it since the very beginning and have been ready to come to the aid of the rest of the alliance if called upon (Well, more or less ready 😂). If Sweden and Finland want to join, well, they've had 70 years to do it and they only want to join now that they're worried about getting attacked. They weren't all that interested in defending the other NATO members when they weren't in much danger themselves.

[@realShikha885]

Turkey is naturally autocratic, even their national hero Ataturk was also a dictator LOL.

[@yogibear7840]

Yes you are absolutely right about the rules. You can see how this apply to the Swift system that Russia is now kicked out of. All other countries understand very well that they will be next when US feel like it. It was a terrible blunder to do this and will help Russia and China greatly because they will make a new system and ALL the sanctioned countries will be allowed in and the sanction as a weapon is no more... and the same goes for the dollar as a world currency.

[@jhonbus]

@@yogibear7840 I think you're drawing a bit of a false equivalency here. There is nothing in the rules of the Swift system to say that you're allowed to invade a neighbouring country and brutally murder its inhabitants, let alone a rule stating that doing so is part of the mechanism for governing membership of it...

[@yogibear7840]

@@jhonbus Sorry did you say "Invading Iraq with the evidence of NOT having weapons of mass destruction and NOTHING happening to the US and GB and all the others who was involved in this farce"? Stop finding excuses for the Russia/Ukraine situation and start getting real. Im not saying that attacking other countries are ok but everyone must stop a second and think about why this happened too? If Russia have been speaking about the worries about their own safety for about 15 years and that NATO should not expand. Russia have been trying to get a new security structure for Europe going for a long time but noone is interested? You can only say "This is a red line for us" so many times

[@yogibear7840]

@@jhonbus i dont see Turkey getting kicked off the swift system for going into Syria do you? So if you make "rules for thee but not for me" then the system will not work.

[@Valerie-fk8ux]

The Turkish military launched an operation against the PKK yesterday. The most effective weapon seized in the operation is the Swedish, made AT 4 anti tank missile. The serial number of this anti tank is known. This is a Swedish made weapon. What do you want from the Turks now?

[@nikosnikos8184]

Turkey has invaded Syria along with Syrian rebels. this area is Kurdish land.the king of syria said that this is a war crime. Also Europe has different laws. Turkey is not europe country

[@roach2179]

@@nikosnikos8184 kurdish land? How u know about this lands idiot, also you think we want to be european? F*ck u and f*ck ur imperialist laws

[@berkaysulek7058]

@@nikosnikos8184 Right, Greece not accepting immigrants from Syria is not a war crime.

[@alpdkk1869]

@@nikosnikos8184 This is a complete nonsense that America and Russia started the Syrian civil war. I don't know why, but you, the so-called civilized Europeans, see Turkey as racist fascists who are anti-Kurdish. It's funny because we are friends who have lived together for hundreds of years.

[@chronemsymphony8175]

@@nikosnikos8184 Turkey didnt invade syria . Turkey killed the terorists in syria to protect their border .

[@abstract33]

Turkey was strategic NATO ally in 1960's...... but that was before Erdoğan and the Kurdish issue.

[@janissaryone1906]

Why doesn't NATO change the rule of entry to a 2/3 majority instead? Same with EU or any organization that requires unanimous approval should change to a 2/3 majority because you don't want the tail wagging the dog!

[@kawaiiobama8079]

I feel like his videos are more about pushing a narrative than providing information.

[@richardbug3094]

Always have been

[@kasyon3150]

Yeah this channel has lost a lot of impartiality, And there is an obvious narrative being pushed. The amount of non-factual information has shot up dramatically, where opinions and fear-mongering are being pushed instead. I mean just in this video he claims Turkey and Greece almost went to war in 2020, which is ludicrious. It would also help if he proof-read his script, he states kurdish rebellions occured in the west of Turkey at 4:32 which is not true, it was south-eastern Turkey.

[@ShadowD2C]

exactly, specifically the fact that Sweden does not back Kurdish groups. this is as false as false gets

[@hieverybody4246]

Yeah. Turkey is critical to the alliance. A few rebels hiding in Sweden and Finland are absolutely NOT. An agreement is already close to being ironed out.

[@annoyedcat9291]

Simply put, kicking Turkey out of NATO will weaken the alliance's might greatly. Turkey is the 2nd largest contributor and 5th largest army in NATO. It will be a huge win for Russia as they try to rope in Turkey against NATO forces near Turkish border. Russia may also transfer nukes to Turkey as a counterbalance to NATO's expansionism. It's not a stretch to say that Turkey is more valuable that Sweden and Finland combined

[@1queijocas]

@@belgiumbunlover5787 the Scandinavians are too naive - they thought as long as they were nice to everyone, the world would spare them. Tough shit to them, Turkey is more valuable. They should’ve built their military during peacetime rather than after a war broke out

[@bradleystanley1184]

Turkey is a bench warmer for the real nato countries like UK France Germany and the US they just in a strategic place on the map

[@yarn7344]

@@bradleystanley1184 cope

[@akhsdenlew1861]

The problem with turkey is that its the only country that doesn't share the same values as the rest of the NATO. Idelogically speaking, turkey doesn't belong to nato. While finland and sweeden are perfect fits for it. On the other hand, militarly speaking, turkey is stronger than both finland and Sweeden combined. Also the position of turkey is MUCH more important than finlands and sweeden. It's a tough spot.

[@andies9817]

@@akhsdenlew1861 "On the other hand, militarly speaking, turkey is stronger than both finland and Nato combined." lol sure

[@hakansonmez3442]

NATO needs Turkey more than Turkey needs NATO. Thanks for clarifying.

[@paulvogel5582]

Not really.

[@hakansonmez3442]

@@paulvogel5582 I would extend my comment to the EU. Turkiye is a loyal ally but it takes mutual good faith and effort to build or sustain goodwill and exemplary /respectful relations between allies.

[@scp096here]

Turkey has Joined the NATO at the Korean War.They had to send Soldiers to Join NATO He didnt explain that.

[@blakedake19]

9:48 Turkey is not in need of some military protection though 10:04 number of personnel is one of the worst metric to describe the power of the armed forces. North Korea has millions and still completely suck.

[@hexusmexus6971]

How did I do the maths on North Korea

[@LeoDas688]

@@hexusmexus6971 Everyone North Korean men and women need to be part of the military, so large part of the population, that is why he might have told that

[@teaser6089]

I mean if Turkey was kicked out of NATO and Russia got their shit together in theory Turkey should stand no chance of winning. However both Turkey and Russia have shown severe lack of training in both tactical and strategic doctrine to their soldiers, as both are using tanks on their own without infantry support to deal with AT treats, which results in tank crews getting unplanned flight lessons and then putting up a surprise pikachu face when their tanks are destroyed. And I agree number of personal doesn't mean shit. Same goes for weapons or any other material. It only matters what you do with said personal and material which really indicates strength. Look at Ukraine, they have less weapons, less personal, but use the terain and superior tactics to their advantage. By using guerilla warfare they successfully counter any large organized army designed to fight another equally large and organized army. Russia's army composition was designed to fight NATO, hence why they have limited infantry per division, as Peer vs Peer combat usually involves less flanking, but Ukraine uses Guerilla tactics, a form of combat that involves a lot of flanking, due to Russias limited infantry they cannot protect the flanks of their armour from all sides, resulting in exposed tanks and exposed tanks are a favorite lunch meal for ATGMs. And even more so, comparing numbers to other NATO nations is even more irrelevant. Many NATO countries have given up the ability to fully defend their own country with all types of equipment in favour of specializing in a few subsets. The Royal Netherlands Military is a good example. We(I am Dutch) specialize in logistics, communication, working together and work really well coordinating with multiple other nations militaries. Our Navy is focused on escort and support, AA and ASW duties or functioning as Air Trafic Control. The Dutch military isn't very impressive when only looking at hard numbers, but when you take skill and ability to work together into account the Dutch military outclasses many that seem much stronger in the hard numbers department.

[@ersinhuseyinoglu7872]

"Turkey is not in need of some military protection though" ?? By same logic, neither do Sweend and Finland.

[@blakedake19]

@@ersinhuseyinoglu7872 What are you talking about?

[@prometheusjackson8787]

So you'd kick out one of the largest militaries on the planet for two mid sized countries? Gee guy, don't think that's very smart

[@georgedevries3992]

You're kidding right?

[@prometheusjackson8787]

@@georgedevries3992 what do you want?

[@georgedevries3992]

@@prometheusjackson8787 I guess it's pretty obvious. And if you are gonna argue about the straits and the army, then you got another thing coming.

[@prometheusjackson8787]

@@georgedevries3992 It's funny you can't actually articulate your point. Go away

[@zjeee]

You didn't watch the video? He did say it's unlikely and won't happen due to the size of the military and the strategic importance? So basically you just read the name of the video and assumed that was his stance lol? I will admit it's a little bit click-bait but you obviously did not watch the whole video my man.

[@retepeyahaled2961]

Very good analysis! Some additional remarks, in support of your analysis: - To me it is incomprehensible that some Kurdish individuals are free to offend Erdogan as much as they like, when this endangers the safety of the country that gives them a safe haven. Personally, I would kick them out for endagering Sweden. - Turkey does not like that the Americans used, protected and armed the Kurds in their fight against IS. - Turkey does not like being played against Greece. The do not get the weapons they want from the US for fear that they might get too strong. - Turkey has a massive refugee problem and the Western countries pay him to keep them out of Europe. But in return, the Western countries are not willing to let the Turks into the European Community. - If Turkey would side with Russia, we would not only lose an ally with an enormous army, but we would even have to fight that enormous army.

[@neilnelson7603]

Even if Turkey was to be removed from NATO, it would still be a major problem as it will have no obligation not to allow Russian navy access all the black sea routes. Turkey out of NATO will be a gift to the Russians.

[@rojavabashur6455]

Russia is not a threat. Turkey is the new threat.

[@123456qwful]

Honestly if turkey was kicked from nato it just might be what russia need to as well as make a new ally in Europe both to defend it southern region, but also a trade partner

[@neilnelson7603]

@Leah Peah Siding with the Kurds is a dumb idea cause it means Europeans are trying to once again change the borders of Iraq, Syria, Iran and Turkey all at the same time. It will literally unite the middle east, making Europeans the world's number one enemy once again.

[@neilnelson7603]

@@123456qwful exactly 💯

[@zjeee]

@@123456qwful Russia and Turkey ally? Sounds as likely as Russia and America getting allied. Or India and Pakistan. You do realize Turkey and Russia has been fighting each other for 600 years right? They are historical rivals.

[@theamericancristero7390]

Turkey under Edrogan may as well be Saudi Arabia; A geopolitical ally of essential importance despite mutual hatred and incompatibility on a civilizational level.

[@user-ir7og3lx2d]

Turkey under anyone else would have protested about Sweden and Finland, as this move has cross party support. Even though no one else would have been this bold other than him.

[@Sttm35]

That would be like giving up on the shield and choosing to counter Russians with a bare sword.

[@izetsalihbegovic115]

Or make Russians their allay. Block access to the black sea to NATO and ban the bases that USA needs for activities in middle east.

[@Teymen34]

I want the best for my country and he wants Turkey to leave NATO and enter the Shanghai cooperation organization.

[@drbobcaster]

Thanks for the history lesson.

[@carsmax]

Right now Ukraine need Turkey as a "silent partner" !! They deliver stuff to Ukraine and do not let Russia fly over turkish land and russian ships are not allowed to pass bosphorus strait Turkey is more important than ever.

[@h4ze531]

Turkey saved Odessa with closing the Sea

[@Spt23]

As a swede i do actually think we need to understand that we are entering an alliance with other members with other points of view. This will force us to make some sacrifices, it feels like we are putting ourselves on some kind of moral pedestal and that there is a heavy eurocentric perspective. This doesnt mean that we should break the rule of law that we have in Sweden but supporting the Kurds while entering an alliance with Turkey is kinda absurd in my eyes. It would be like some other party providing money for the Sami to create it's own country in the north of Sweden (And yes we do not harass them as much now but if you look at history we have not been kind to the Sami people) and then talk about a alliance where we protect each other but we provide support to a minority in the land that wants to split up. Dont take me wrong im not for Erdogan i see him as a Despot. But we cannot be unreasonable we need to be a bit more pragmatic and not completely go on ideology.

[@murielcaumette145]

Sweden is a former Nazi country allied to Hitler with the state concentration centers to sterilize gypsies and homeless people. Which has never been denazified in any way. Vikings 'blond beasts" according to Nitzche.

[@jessestreet2549]

i would personally like to see a united Kurdistan. of course the very idea terrifies any country with a large Kurdish population but as a Native American my sympathies tend to lie with the underdog.

[@sepagrile]

There is a huge misunderstanding in Europe that Turks hate Kurds or PKK=Kurds. But this is nonesense, it is quite true that Erdoğan don't like Kurds but the Turks lives along and with Kurds. You can support Kurds, maybe their rights the anti-Kurdophobia. But PKK is a Terrorist organization that killed many civilians. Even Kurds here in Turkey hate them. PS: I don't support Erdoğan either. I just wanted the break the missinformation in western media that cites Kurds = PKK and Kurds ≠ Turks.

[@the1stman817]

​@@jessestreet2549 🤡

[@dronur6194]

@@jessestreet2549 very funny lol 😂

[@jonasfermefors]

There is a bit more to the situation with Kurds and Sweden. There are a lot of Kurds here in Sweden. A lot of them are openly against Erdogan and some are very visible such as being members of the Swedish parliament. Add to that that Sweden has been fairly open in it's criticism of the Turkish regime and it isn't to hard to see why Erdogan - who jails any dissenters within the country - is less than keen to see Sweden as a member of NATO.

[@VeritasOmniaVincit176]

Short answer: no it can’t. Turkey’s position is even more strategic and it could easily become an adversary to NATO if it is ousted. Meanwhile, Finland and Sweden are NATO members in all but name. There’s already alignment and cooperation with its members, but without the obligation from a mutual defense agreement (Article 5). Kicking Turkey out in favor of Finland and Sweden doesn’t make strategic sense, regardless of how aligned they are with the west. That said, I hope they reach a compromise with Turkey and NATO accepts the two new members to thwart any new Russian expansion attempt. That would probably bring the alliance to its final size: Switzerland and Austria will remain neutral in their cozy location, the reaming Balkan states are too unstable, Ireland will be the last potential member (albeit improbable).

[@peterfireflylund]

The Treaty of Sèvres is still valid -- so if we really wanted to, we could dismember Turkey without breaking international law or needing a UN mandate. This won't happen as long as we in Europe still need NATO and as long as the US plays such a large role in our security. It might happen once we get a stronger and more coordinated EU military.

[@Kapito13]

@Utku Güney with your F-16s that you can't even maintain and your 40y old frigates 🤣🤣🤣

[@MeinUnterkampf]

@@peterfireflylund The Treaty of Sevres was never even ratified, dummy, it was replaced by the Treaty of Lausanne

[@halifecansahin7074]

@@Kapito13 yes greek troll

[@zjeee]

@Utku Güney Not sure which war you are talking about but Turkey's economy is in a weak state so I certainly hope they won't try to get into a serious war. They are an important NATO member but they are in no shape to have a serious military conflict by themselves right now.

[@ozanaksoy7230]

Another point, this is an incredibly Eurocentric view. It is not just Turkey, but USA who is interested in the Middle East affairs. Europe's lack of desire to get involved in the world issues is more of an issue to be discussed on why Europe ended up being a light weight on world politics while being an economic giant.

[@kristianfagerstrom7011]

Light weight?

[@ozanaksoy7230]

@@kristianfagerstrom7011 compared to its potential, yes

[@hmmm3210]

Good. Europe has no idea how the world works or don't have the people's intrests in heart and shouldn't be an element in middle Eastern conflicts. Brutal dicatorship of Assad is preferable now once Europe realised that any government of the people would probably place a greater emphasis on Islam than Assad the secularist( being a Secularist makes him free of all the warcrimes he's commited).

[@xander1201]

Having deadly 2 world wide wars in a century in your continent does that: Isolation

[@calasalos]

Middle East countries are inhabited by religious fanatics, with little or no education compared to the average European citizen.. Their economies are almost exclusively reliant on exports of oil and gas, and they are ideologically against the West and its culture, moved as they are by a sick inferiority complex

[@dodohando8287]

A person named Amine Kakabaeh is in the Swedish parliament. Photographs of Kalashnikov. And even this woman can threaten the pkk, yog, sdg ptoaganda and the Swedish parliament with her only vote. Weak Swedes. You don't think of terrorism. These groups will be a problem for you in the future. The Swedish Parliament, which has fallen into political impotence.

[@davidelliott5843]

Turkey is currently keeping Bosphorus Straits closed thereby keeping the Russian Black Sea Fleet boxed up. Turkey effectively controls the Black Sea. Like it or not, this makes Turkey an important NATO asset.

[@mehmettuncar]

Hungary is also another nato member who did not sanction Russia , but You said Turkey is only one..

[@mab9614]

Washington will certainly say no to that. The Istanbul Strait is the key to control the Russian Black Sea fleet. In the end, it’s probably the US who will have to give Turkey money to make Turkey agree to Finland and Sweden’s NATO’ applications. TBH, I was quite delighted back in 2020 when Macron angered Erdogan.

[@blakedake19]

What Russian Black Sea fleet?

[@farright118]

Well we could kick turkey out of NATO and threaten to anex the straight if they allow Russia to annex it

[@A.Martin]

@@blakedake19 the one at the bottom of the sea.

[@Cygnus888]

@@blakedake19 There are still at least 2 rocket ships left and some other boats.

[@kaamilshaikh7814]

It's not that simple i think the Syrian corridor, oil rights in Mediterranean area removal of weapons export ban on turkey could be few things to look into

[@enigmagrieshaber5555]

Even if it's possible they won't since according to Montreal agreement Turkey controls the Bosporus straight and can decide whether they can let military ships or not Letting turkey go is bad shit and turkey wouldn't want to leave as well because of economic reasons Being part of the rich boys is beneficial anyways and they've been waiting for EU membership for decades One thing IDK why they haven't put in the table is the EU membership for Turkey

[@Markfr0mCanada]

8 months later and this is just as relevant. By now I personally feel that the other 29 members need to find a way to get this done. If that means making a NATO 2.0 that is an identical copy, but with an added expulsion mechanic this time, so be it. It can have 31 members, then Turkiye can beg Finland and Sweden for permission to join.

[@beratoren7627]

lmao are you 13

[@balporsugu7046]

First of all, we were involved in the Syrian war, we fought with our soldiers because an additional 5 million refugees would come to our country from Idlib. We are already looking at a lot of refugees, the addition of new ones would affect us sociologically and economically very, very badly. Assad and Russia were forcibly moving the dissident indigenous people to our border, so many people, changing the established order would affect us badly. We got involved in the war to preserve the status. The fall of Idlib meant 5 million refugees, this would be a problem not only for us but also for Europe, because it is obvious that not all of them will stay here.The same day, Russia struck our military convoy and 34 of our soldiers were martyred. They didn't even give us time to take our wounded and they closed the airspace. Despite Russia closing its airspace, Turkey decided on a military operation and the "spring shield operation" began. We disguised the Bayraktar TB2s with the Koral jammer and destroyed the targets. Our f16s hit targets using guided missiles from our own airspace without crossing the border because Russia had closed its airspace. Data shown as casualties are like 2500 soldiers these are the Iranian revolutionary militia and russian mercenary wagners. In this way, Idlib did not fall and the refugees there did not clog our borders. They continued their lives in their own countries. I would like to tell you about the Libya issue. We signed a maritime continental shelf agreement with the legitimate government in Libya in order to determine our borders in the Mediterranean. But the Russian-backed Haftar administration said that it does not recognize our continental shelf. We got into a difficult situation regarding our continental shelf in the Mediterranean. Greece also became one with Haftar and turned against us in the Mediterranean. Two NATO countries were on the brink of war in 2020. The only way to diplomatically salvage this situation was for the legitimate government to survive. We also provided military support to the government recognized by the United Nations, our soldiers went there and fought, just like Syria, we used Bayraktar tb2s there. Likewise, the airspace of the region was closed by Russia, but we stopped the general Haftar by preventing the tb2s from appearing on the radars. We helped both sides form a government with no war elections, the agreement with us would be valid. Finally, Azerbaijan doesn't need much words for this, Azerbaijan's personal issue is a personal issue for us. Azerbaijan is an Oghuz Turkic nation and we are two countries of the same race, from the same blood for centuries, it is very normal for us to help when they need help. Turkey may be a NATO country, but it has waged proxy wars with Russia for its personal interests. Ukraine, after seeing this, approached us and wanted to buy Bayraktar tb2s. They bought from us the tools They use most effectively in the field at the moment. Not only did they buy, the technology transfer agreement was signed, they wanted to produce together. I can explain it briefly like this, I hope you read it. In short, while our country was implementing a policy of diplomatic balance with Russia, it was fighting proxy wars in the background this is why it is used in so many wars. Now you will say why Russia supported the Haftar, let me explain it too. The emergence of hydrocarbon and natural gas reserves in the Mediterranean is not a good development for a natural gas exporting country like Russia. One way or another, Europe has a dependency on Russia on natural gas and the Russians make money in this way. If the reserves in the Mediterranean went to Europe by a longer route, not our border, it would be more expensive than Russian gas, and the Europeans would not want to use expensive gas or they would continue to use cheap Russian gas. That's why the Russians provoked Greece against us. This deadlock was very important for their natural gas trade. That's why 2 NATO countries came back from the brink of war.

[@Paerigos]

Just a Question - why the hell should Lybia have any say where Cypruses marine borders are??? Should you talk about that with Cyprus? Also no codification with Greece can actually change Cypruses opinion about it....

[@peterfireflylund]

You don't have a higher percentage of refugees than we do Muslim immigrants/refugees in Northern Europe. But now that you have seen the trouble they bring, perhaps you should think nice thoughts to the host countries in Northern Europe of many an uninvited Turkish family?

[@mickelodiansurname9578]

Why would anyone fight a war to stop refugees... wouldn't that make more refugees? And last I looked those refugees had no intention at all of staying in Turkey. What turkey does is simply allow Syrian refugees to walk or bus across Turkey to the EU where they are welcomed as refugees. Also 5 million refugees isn't even the total number of Syrian refugees across the entire world. Had Turkey played by the rules then the EU would have paid for all those refugees. Instead Turkish officials stuck their hand in the pie and stole the first, second and third Funds set out by the EU... and that's the end of that... no more free money for Turkey. You're problems now... deal with it. All nations are required, by law, to accept refugee status from people fleeing a war. That's the law... you do not get to solve that by invading the country at war and causing more refugees. The actual reason Turkey invaded Syria and is invading it again next month in a 'Special Military Operation' (otherwise known as an all out war) is to grab Syrian ports...and then claim they are part of Turkey... becasue presumably they were part of Turkey at some point in distant history, or some other stupid excuse. Ohh and to keeps folks minds of the complete collapse of the Turkish economy and lack of food. Simple as that. Anyway I think you get the picture... we are pretty much sick of authoritarian fascist leaders like Putin and Erdogan here in the EU... and for sure Turkey can't be removed from NATO but it could be a very long time before anything Turkey wants again is listened to by the US or EU. For sure it'll be 50 years or more before Turkey see's any move to allow Turkey into the EU... there would be massive protests if that was even suggested these days. And I can safely type this here in Ireland... what do you think would happen to me if I tried to post it from inside Turkey? Hell you can't even suggest speaking Kurdish in Turkey! Axaftina bi kurdî li Tirkiyê qedexe ye

[@SKY-sk9ts]

@@Paerigos because they Was a federal goverment in cyprus but greeks start a genocide over civil turks and we cannot remain silent to a Turk Gencoide So Turkısh Army Saved Civilian People

[@hieverybody4246]

Thanks!

[@fcole90]

Given that this is TLDR EU, I think it'd be useful to convert the Nebula price to € as well 😊

[@mickelodiansurname9578]

There's always one nit-picky nerd in a bunch of nerds... lol

[@nostro1940]

It's TLDR EU but its full of unemployed turks frustrated at their visa rejections

[@maddogbasil]

This video seems incredibly euro biased But its understandable this is a british new channel so why wouldn't they be more biased to European politics

[@blackfalcon1324]

I mean euros are basically the same as USD right now.

[@housamnajjair2277]

All I heard was a guy bitch about Turkey for twenty minutes for him in the end to say "there is nothing we can do"

[@aheat3036]

Türkiye is important to NATO but change to majority NATO members votes to let in Sweden and Finland!… That will solve the problem.

[@stopmessingwithyt]

Turkey condemned the actions of Russia and defined this whole debacle as war ever since it started. Turkey is committed to the Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity since 2016. Get your facts in order!

[@realtalk6195]

Turkey is one of the FEW countries that supplied Ukraine with arms the past decade before the recent war broke out. And it's the ONLY country that actually built up Ukraine's military industry. Signed deals to build TB2 and TAI Anka combat drones factories on Ukraine's own soil, and contracted Ukraine to build engines for the Akinci combat drone. Turkey and Ukraine even discussed building warships together. A big reason Russia invaded when it did and thereby rushed the invasion (while the ground was wet from spring replacing winter) was because Russia wanted to neutralize Ukraine before it could get drone production running. The factories would have been operational this year.

[@sk8erbyern]

these people are not really interested in facts tho. Another western shill probably paid by some western government.

[@r.d.9399]

At the same time they shake hands with Putin and the Iranians. The leader of Turkey is a dictator. He's a snake and should be removed from power immediately

[@truthless4720]

A connected question: could they decide to leave on their own? I think that's been a question repeated every few years the last decade or two.

[@MartinLeong25]

No they wont They gain stuff from NATO

[@mickelodiansurname9578]

ITs a good question too. Another commenter also rephrased the question of whether they can be kicked out. While its true there is no mechanism for a NATO member to be kicked out... there's also nothing preventing it! So I haven't read the NATO charter, but I would say there is some sort of provision for members leaving for a good reason. Sometimes nations cease to exist, or break apart... etc. For example the Czech Republic... EDIT: Article 13... countries can leave NATO once they have been a member for at least 20 years.

[@idontexist1681]

Yes please I'm waiting for that day. I've had enough of nato's bullshit

[@ydhamitch7971]

They're far more likely to change the way NATO accepts new members, than kick turkey out. Turkey is so geographically important, they couldn't afford to remove them from the alliance

[@izetsalihbegovic115]

Sweden 10.42 million + Finland 5.541 million = 16 million. Turkey 85 million. Turkeys strategic position is unparalleled. Access to Black sea would be an issue for Nato members.

[@samatha1994]

Simpler to look at what's needed, mutual defence pact. There is the defence pact between Sweden, Finland and the UK for mutual support if attacked (in practice involving the 10 countries of the JEF which include the Baltic countries, Norway, Netherlands...). There is nothing precluding other countries such as Germany, France, Poland, the USA... also joining that. In addition Finland and Sweden are part of the EU, with its mutual defence clause "If a Member State is the victim of armed aggression on its territory, the other Member States shall have towards it an obligation of aid and assistance by all the means in their power, in accordance with Article 51 of the United Nations Charter. " Not requiring all members to agree to membership would seem to be another approach. However, there doesn't seem to be procedures for changing that and there are potential downsides.

[@mickelodiansurname9578]

The US also unilaterally stepped in with a military pact with the Nordics. So basically joining NATO is not even needed now. All that's happening now is Turkey are making as many other NATO countries as unhappy as they can. Doubtless Turkey will now stick their hand out for bribe money. They might be in for a shocker!

[@lottat6003]

I totally agree!

[@nikosnikos8184]

Turkey is not a European country. what is good for them must be agreed by others. this is called arrogance and neo-Ottoman ideology

[@ratatajk7187]

Mutual defense pact is only on paper. Just like any "joint/relationship", country will always find excuse. I believe UK will just invent "propaganda" to avoid being involved if Russia really attack Finland and/or Sweden.

[@xiaogangdasha]

i thought NATO forbid its members join other alliance, the formation defence pack is already exist or its your suggestion ?

[@kasperchristensen8416]

_The Ottoman and Russian Empire had fought an impressive 10 wars over a periode of 300 years._ Sweden and Denmark: Hold our mjöd/mjød!

[@robman2095]

I am guessing that means beer? 😂

[@elturco2421]

You choose a side, NATO and Europe, of course, you expect support in every way, but they treat you as a stepchild for religious reasons. The main reason why Turkey is in such a stuck situation is that the allied side does not give enough support. The biggest reason for this is history and religion. We are in 2022 and religion still has an important place in state affairs.

[@clydecash5659]

It should be either president Erdogan goes or Turkey’s membership. Your choice, Turkey.

[@kiligara3971]

Turkey doesn't need NATO, but NATO needs Turkey, what would Europe be like if the Turks joined the Russian side?

[@ArramzyChaos]

The yellow bar under the add is a great addition thank you 😊

[@modernera777]

Imagine NATO kicking out Turkey because Turkey has a terrorist problem from NATOs New prospects. Lol the group that you signed up to protect you kicking you out and recruiting your abuser 😂

[@taylordinney1484]

How are Sweden and Finland responsible? Last I checked the Turks conquered and oppressed the Kurds. Old empires reap the grain they sowed with centuries of violence and enslavement. Would anyone here willingly accept your people shattered among many countries?

[@modernera777]

@@taylordinney1484 well all three parties confirmed it. You may have to watch a few videos.

[@modernera777]

@@taylordinney1484 Well Taylor, I'm black. Most people lock their car doors as I walk pass so to answer your last question, I doubt it.

[@zjeee]

They won't be kicked out but they will probably get the cold shoulder treatment from the rest of NATO.

[@terrorgaming459]

Turkey should join russia and china nato treats them like slaves

[@Mradazol52]

Turkey is much more useful country for NATO/USA than Scandinavian countries all together. Turkey army is second biggest army in NATO and their location is extremely strategic!

[@Greksallad]

As a Swede I absolutely despise Erdoğan and his government but I don't think kicking Turkey out is the answer. They are a valuable ally and asset with major geostrategic importance. I wish we could get along better with Turkey and I'm confident we will reach some sort of solution without the need for drastic actions. Hopefully the 2023 elections will bring some well needed change to Turkey.

[@TheBiggreenpig]

The problem is that Turkey, especially Erdogan, views the Kurds as enemy.

[@lomborg4876]

Doesn't matter much, if they stab you in the back some day

[@georgedevries3992]

Fuck no. Let him stay. He has done so much damage to his own country without realizing it. A boon for the Greeks, Cypriots and us Europeans in general.

[@Greksallad]

@@anujpandita3387 But it's simply not true though, those are unfounded allegations. Both the Finnish and Swedish governments consider the PKK a terrorist organization, we don't give them any money. They haven't proved that at all and they can't because it has not happened. The ban on arms exports is because of Turkey's aggression in Syria. They felt like they weren't doing enough to oppress the Kurds in Turkey so the invaded another country so they could murder and torment the people there as well. They brought the weapons embargo on themselves.

[@karankapoor2701]

I Think Sweden messed up nu taking soo many refugees which are causing a problem themselves for you guys

[@Fishpasta4]

Yeah the strategic positioning on the Black Sea, Caucuses and Middle East isn't something that NATO is going to give up. Turkey may be unconventional in terms of what NATO expects from its members but it is just far too valuable when countering Russia.

[@rojavabashur6455]

Why is it worth something if Turkey cant be trusted?

[@maddogbasil]

Some people get blinded by politics or just trolling but reality is if war breaks out It ain't the french or Germans holding the line It's the polish, hungarianx turks and romanians If the turks aren't in NATO then they have no reason to look out for NATO benefits in the bosphorus And the chinese might start looking to move further into Europe with Also immigrants I don't know the full numbers but I think their are around 2 to 3 million immigrants piled up in turkeys southern border and with the way belarus used their hybrid warfare I'm not sure how immigration will work with them out of NATO

[@thesoundinyourhead1782]

-Bosphorus straits have been replaced for defence equipment transition by Alexandroupolis port. -in caucasus there is also Georgia and Armenia, countries that were in soviet union back then -in middle east there are USA bases on Kurdish populated area. Also Israel and Cyprus. Geopolitical Value of turkey is dropping like their lira.

[@maddogbasil]

@@thesoundinyourhead1782 wait a minute Are you saying That armenia a country that literally just lost a war to its neighbour last years and georgia which was fully invaded by the Russians years ago about to hold the line against Russia Israel is mostly protected the americans and only exists because of them The middle east is still mostly full of terrorists and insurgents groups which can't even beat their local governments let alone a full russian invasion It Russia invades the best nations defending the border are Turkey Germany Slovakia Romania Hungary Greece Poland The countries to fall would be Moldova, Georgia, Ukraine, Belarus, armenia, Azerbaijan These countries still technically to this day have many russian enclaves and their governments are mostly corrupt and financed by Putin

[@maddogbasil]

@@thesoundinyourhead1782 the bosphorus straits are under a sovereign nation so international rules are mostly out of the window once someone is invading you Equipment alone can not simply deter enemy bombing and in the black sea the bulgarians greeks and turks will have to deal with russian vessels and submarines The turks have nuclear capable missiles belonging to Americans in their border The moment war starts nuclear weapons will be on the table So that's why its important to have several strong countries as line up against the russians

[@StephMcAlea]

It's a moot point. Finland and Sweden are now fully meshed into NATO, not by agreement, but by individual nations within NATO. The UK has a defence pact with Finland and Sweden anyway. NATO is allied to the Nordic nations in all but name... we just can't put NATO troops in Finland or Sweden.