Could The Loyalists Have Won the Istvaan V Dropsite Massacre? | Warhammer 40k Lore

[@majorkill]

Last chance to pick up the 400k Merch before we unlist it and go balls deep in Christmas : www.majorkill.shop/ Go balls deep in something else here : www.patreon.com/majorkill

[@Delta-bh7pc]

talk about the difference between chaos champions and princes, god dammit.

[@15DAnglo]

damn it Majorkill dropping all this merch back to back...THIS IS HERESEY... *HERETICALLY GRABS WALLET*

[@15DAnglo]

I don't see the hat on the website... THIS IS TRULY HERESEY!! *Weeps in treachery* ( obviously just a joke folks)

[@withlovefromlightindust591]

Hey Majorkill. Would you please make some lore videos on the Imperial Truth, the Imperial Creed, The Ecclesiarchy, Commander Shadowsun, and the High Lords of Terra? Thank you.

[@bogansrun]

Roane merch lol

[@ratman505]

I think the Ultramarines and Blood Angels would have sufficed because what are layers of ceramite compared to layers of plot armor?

[@bigpp9978]

Facts

[@macshadow1150]

In 30k neither of them had much of plot armor, they won but not without heavy loses

[@ratman505]

@@Pemmont107 I mean, as far as I know the Ultramarines have been dialed back as well. I don't mind them winning, I'm just bothered if they always manage without notable help - hence I love Dante and Szarekh fight against the Tyranids together

[@SymbioteMullet]

@Mac Shadow but if the ultramarines are destroyed we will never see the rise of Kato Sicarius, the main character of the Ultramarines! They have to have plot armour!

[@arjandosanj6131]

There are atleast 5 or 6 more plot armoured leigons

[@urranrell2721]

The fact that three legions betrayed Big E was enough that no one thought that the heresy ran deeper than those three.

[@obamaprism4168]

4*

[@misterkillroy2952]

@@obamaprism4168 To be fair, two were tricked into thinking Big E betrayed him.

[@obamaprism4168]

@@misterkillroy2952 I assume your talking about the death guard and world eaters, if so how?

[@misterkillroy2952]

@@obamaprism4168 I had a typo, and it was Big E. The 2 were Magnus when he thought Big E was having his chapter killed off for him sending a warning, and the other was Horus himself. He saw the future where E is a god. And to be frank, that may have always been his plan, or the God Emperor may have manipulated things to go that way, resulting in it's own creation, against Big E's plans.

[@obamaprism4168]

@@misterkillroy2952 Ah, I thought you were talking only about the first 4 traitor legions

[@mickbrown7793]

A large portion of the Imperial Fists were supposed to be with the Loyalists on Istvaan V, but they got marooned by a warpstorm. Realistically, the Dropsite Massacre was the the result of Horus doing an excellent job of drawing out legions who could be beaten quickly, while other legions were kept away. His strategy was excellent - he won the battle before it even took place. If different legions were sent, Horus's strategy would have failed and he'd have probably fought differently.

[@Valnotersc]

Absolutely. There had been a large effort by Horus to ensure certain legions were unavailable and he likely would not have revealed himself if he could not ensure that the legions sent to censure him were the ones he wanted.

[@7hart2]

Exactly. And those 3 would have been disaporportionate in use had they been left alone: Raven Guard can out ambush Nightlords and stymie Alpha Legion hijinks. Nipping at Horus' entire logistics train required for Terra: Invaluable scouts for the White Scars and acting as assault troops when needed to free the Khan's forces for rapid re-deployment. The Salamanders and Iron Hands represent the 2nd and 3rd toughest individuals after the Death Guard, respectively. The Salamanders with their preference for warcrime armaments acting as short-ranged support would have been a massive buff to the Blood Angels favoured warfare. There smiting skills would assist the Iron Hands in all other endeavors. The Iron Hands have the means to repair machinery along with the battlements at the Imperial Fists' direction - never mind granting the loyalists a fully functional version of "heresy pattern" armor. Honestly, these tiny Legions were more important to destroy in the long term than the Ultramines Legion as they offered more for the siege than just numbers and logistics.

[@TheWarmachine375]

The Loyalist Legions had to suffer The Worf Effect in order to show how ruthless, dangerous and cruel the Traitor Legions have become in the early stages of the Horus Heresy.

[@omega5179]

True but by doing this GW just makes chaos into a joke because seriously how the fuck do you lose a war with like a 3 to one advantage in your favor

[@lewishorsman2219]

@@omega5179because money and secondly because chaos United is still chaos. Chaos is chaos. Meaning there is no meaning or order to it. All the chaos gods would be scheming. No doubt Angron would try turning on Tzeentch or even Fulgrim as is Khornes way. Nurgle would probably send off Mortarion off to hunt Eldar to try and stop them getting cures from Isha. Fulgrim would just attack anybody. The only ones that would make it out of there with any sense would be Horus, Konrad, Lorgar and Perturabo. But even then we forget that Lehman would absolutely have killed Lorgar meaning that a lot of the chaos worship would cease. Dorn would have cut down or obliterated the world eaters to a man. The lion would still kill Konrad or even Horus. Corax would probably try hunt down Fulgrim if not Mortarion. That’s if Istvaan IV never happened. If the heresy was noticed before all that fuck me the traitors would be so fucked even the chaos gods would have to reassess going after humanity like that. The loyalists would be too strong. With Vulcan pumping out god tier weaponry, Dorn making sure every world was well defended, Guilliman backing up every legion with about 10-20k of his own troops, Sanguinius bringing the shock and awe down on everyone, Iron hands beating every siege down, Jaghatai striking hard and fast at retreating/reinforcing forces, Corax playing hide and seek picking them off one by one. Dark angels being dark angels & Lehman being kept back in case anyone gets through. The traitor legions would be hunted down to a man in under 20 years.

[@williamk033]

It was also a massive sacrifice. A word bearer explained that brotherly betrayals had the greatest effect on the warp to an ultramarine, just before he shot him in the chest.

[@robertnelson9599]

That line was awesome.

[@Justquitalready]

Great analogy

[@mahiralraisyi3344]

Optimus pride says:how would each of the primarchs would react and rule the imperium if they were to return before guilliman

[@TheMusan970]

yup he done did it 😂

[@dominushydra]

I like how it states that if Dorn wasn't on Terra, Alpharius could solo Terra with The Alpha Legion. That's crazy

[@pry9990]

Yeah, no clue how Alpharius and his legion could get through the Custodes.

[@dominushydra]

@@pry9990 Alpharius got the drop on Valdor before

[@snipeyboi5934]

@@dominushydra doesn't explain the rest of the legion getting through the sol system intact

[@waragainstmyself1159]

Doesnt even make sense.

[@dominushydra]

@@snipeyboi5934 I'm Alpharius and everything but even I know this is a bit of a stretch 😂

[@adambartholomew6575]

This just goes to show how much of tactical genius Horus was, tailoring every engagement to ensure the utmost advantage for his forces. Truly he deserved the title of Warmaster

[@alphariusomegon8507]

more like the title warmaster 40k. after all. he truly is the warhammer 40k

[@magicmanscott40k]

Honestly I doubt it was horus idea. He probably did spend more time with his brothers than anyone else but I'm sure whatever brought him back to life was it's idea

[@OmicronX-1999]

And yet he somehow still lost even with all the massive advantages he'd gained.

[@norrecvizharan1177]

@@OmicronX-1999 Primarily because of in-fighting, if I recall correctly. If they all stuck together as a cohesive unit, they'd have dominated, but things basically fell apart once whole legions started to ditch the last fight

[@kurkilles]

On the flip side, what would the traitors have to do differently to win the heresy?

[@macshadow1150]

Not be assholes to each other would be nice start. Not betraying each other also would be nice.

[@ismaelsantos5378]

He already sort of covered that here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/o4fQaKaqa9yEhpY But if you want to read my ramblings: 1. Horus should keep Lorgar on his side 2. Not allow Alpharius to charge at Dorn, as the latter killing the former took the Alpha Legion out of the siege. 3. Show some apreciation towards Perturablo, as treating him like shit was the main reason he rage quitted the siege of terra. 4. Use Lorgar to control Fulgrim (since Fulgrim was now a daemon and knowing his true name granted some control over him, Lorgar knew Fulgrim's true name) 5. Better use of Angron (who was a rampaging daemon by the time of the siege) by deploying him either at the front line to soak damage and maybe breach the main defenses or throw him at the Blood Angels after the death of Sanguinius (which triggered the Black Rage on every BAngel) 6. Do not allow Kerbor Hal to unleash the scrap code from the vaults, as that screwed up the forges of mars, which were largely under traitor control. Still, as Majorkill pointed out, even if they killed the Emperor they would have been wiped out by the incoming Space Wolves, Ultramarines and Dark Angels.

[@kurkilles]

@@macshadow1150 you're right. So maybe what could Horus have done differently :D

[@macshadow1150]

@@kurkilles For example? Trying to convince Jaghatai himself, they were much closer to each other. Second, use Burning of Prospero to further degree. Take his forces and bring Exterminatus on the planet when its defensive systems were destroyed. He would wipe out Leman, Space Wolfs and Constantine in one move. Death of Magnus would also be beneficial, becasue without his help Salamanders would not make it trough the warp storm and die with their Primarch. The last thing would be a better treatment of Perturabo, the last sane Primarch on his side.

[@S_047]

Not ditch Perty during the siege of Holy Terra to do all the work like in every group project.

[@TheWarmachine375]

The Traitor Legions asked the Loyalists how's their health plan. Apparently it was great.

[@flowryan163]

When the Traitor Legions take a walk through the woods... a very enthusiastic walk

[@HalIOfFamer]

"Bitches love cannons" -Perturabo probably

[@sars910]

"When you get to the Warp, tell them it was Vulkan who sent you, and then apologise profusely on my behalf."

[@sars910]

The Lion: "Who are we ?" Dark Angels: "The necessary evil !" The Lion: "Why are we necessary ?" Dark Angels: "To rid the galaxy of corruption worse than man !" The Lion: "And why are we the Emperor's chosen few, ordained by Him to undertake this holy task ?" Dark Angels: "Because no one else can !" The Lion: "AND BECAUSE IT'S FUCKING FUN !!"

[@bishoppope2921]

Loyalist: "well bolter rounds won't do shit for dick against powerarmor this thick. How thick is this powerarmor? Well about half as thick as my dick. Which means you'll need AP bolter rounds to pierce it, and I don't even see a heavy bolter on your heretic ass" Heretic: *blows a space marine in half with AP round" Loyalist; "OH fuck, that's AP rounds. OH FUCK THATS AP ROUNDS"

[@kirillpotov7553]

Imagine saying "yes" to plan in which u are supposed to be backed by night lords

[@lUseMyBlade]

good point

[@vencislavgynev8282]

😂😂😂

[@Commander1991NOR]

Even the thought of dark angels, blood angels and ultramarines fighting together with their respective primarchs is utterly terrifying.

[@vencislavgynev8282]

Exactly! Horus was one smart bastard. His first goal was to send them away before to start his HH.

[@josephvoskuhl878]

I'm starting to think our favorite Lore-Master is ignoring that one guy who's commented every video for a while asking Major to theorize what would've happened if other primarchs woke up before Guilliman.

[@AdrianMartinez-ho6db]

Still Sucks that the imperial fists couldn’t join the retribution fleet. Not a huge fists fan but the skills they brought would’ve been a massive boon as most of us know

[@FYAjibber000]

Also sucks the Dark Angels chose to wander off instead of going with Perturabo to Istvaan

[@AdrianMartinez-ho6db]

Ikr. At least they busied themselves torching Horus’ rear lines and weren’t completely idle

[@Franz0818]

@@FYAjibber000 I think it was a distraction so that the Dark Angels wouldn’t join up with the rest of the legions. Like imagine if Lion were there, the Dropsite Massacre would’ve been for the Traitors

[@thewerdna]

Unless Matt Ward was writing it, in which case the blueberries would solo all eight traitor legions and win the heresy.

[@Matt-md5yt]

Or any named marine

[@ruinerblodsinn6648]

Draigo would have stepped out of a time portal to smite Horus.

[@ismaelsantos5378]

@@ruinerblodsinn6648 While offering a tangerine!

[@dominushydra]

🤣 true

[@DickCheneyXX]

As they should have, the traitor legions were already so corrupted they were ready to collapse.

[@Knights_Oath]

The Blood Angels at Isstavsn would just be an entire Legion of Doomguy when Rip and Tear kicks in. Sanguinius would have defeated Horus, he was actually afraid of him.

[@thisisDaKing]

i would love to see a what if the heresy never happened, how would that effect everyone! would the necrons awakening be quickly clapped? Tyranids exterminautes so quick they decide not to come to the galaxy?

[@LordDeathslayer]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/pGSlmGWNgqt2pq8 Already done

[@SirEggo2412]

I’m pretty sure he already did that video

[@namickens]

It's because of the heresy the pharos beacon stuff alerts the nids so I'd say it's a good chance they never come to our galaxy or it's much later in time to the point where it doesn't matter

[@slimjim877]

If the necrons woke en mass, then probably nothing would stop them. Even at humanities hight on the golden age they didn't come close to them.

[@loganjblack]

@@slimjim877 yeah but they didn't wake en mass and I don't think the heresy not happening changes that

[@diekrahe.]

Weren't the 1000 sons not traitor at this point? They could've made a huge difference

[@sorufa888]

Assuming Uncle Malcy and Big E would allow him to with chaos everywhere knowing he has been manipulated by Tzeentch so much

[@Gr1mm4]

I'm not 100% sure of the timeline, but I think Magnus had yeeted into the Warp around that point, either that or the Wolves were knocking at Prospero's door and about to storm the planet.

[@TheGRAclan]

They didn't have the numbers. Even at their peak they were the smallest legion by far.

[@edsheeranahmet6572]

I don't think they were, but how far were they from Istvan? Imagine the distance, to travel

[@ketchupgalli6379]

pretty sure the counsel of nikea (cant spell that) was put in place so if the 1k sons were deployed and used there powers one of the other loyal legion might have gotten pissy

[@joelwinkel4715]

The best case senario would be: 1. Lion shows up 2. Lion commenses exterminatus 3. Profit 2nd best would be: Dark angels, Ultramarines/Imperial fists, Blood Angels like you said

[@zaarkeru3391]

Lion shows up and out war crime traitor Horus with dark age weapons xD

[@729060]

As we're shown in Lorgar's vision when he turned to chaos, anything that gets Rowboat out of Utramar leads to an overall decisive Imperial victory since you don't have Imperium Secundus eating up half the loyal legions.

[@dmasta200184595]

wtf are you talking about?

[@MrRawrCEO]

@@dmasta200184595 Roboute was tricked into fortifying the crap out of Ultramar because he didn't know whether or not the Emperor was alive or not and decided that the safest thing to do was to hunker down and at the very least preserve the ideals of the Imperium. He was later joined by Lion El Johnson and Sanguinius and their respective legions. If they had bumrushed Horus from the very start the siege would have never happened and the Emperor would have never been crippled.

[@dmasta200184595]

@@MrRawrCEO Thanks for explaining a little more

[@jarnMod]

I think it'd not be that clear cut. The Ultramarine wouldn't be there in their entirety as they would have left some garrison in Ultramar. The traitors had by that point, armor piercing bolters and tactics designed specifically to kill astartes. Not to mention that in the story thus far, no legion boast a bigger gun, maybe except for the Phalanx, than the Dies Irae. And if anything, the traitors goal will not be as to kill the legions but to hold them. Taunting the Fist to join the fray, and the 20th will take the cake. I think this is a fun event to theorize. Good job MajorQ

[@henrikandreason7261]

Sanguinius and the lion back to back would've been sick.

[@vencislavgynev8282]

Even to think about is scary.

[@znalniaskas]

The Lion probably would have wanted to just commit war crimes from space before even landing there, crippling them hard from the start.

[@vencislavgynev8282]

Actually this so in his style.

[@darkmadbat_]

Just imagine Phalanx amidst the traitor fleets. Not saying she would survive but neither would the vast majority of the traitors.

[@PelinalDidNothingWrong]

She'd go down swinging

[@Ancient_Awaits]

Phalanx is said to be able to take on multiple naval fleets at once and win handily, I doubt that the traitor fleets would survive the meeting with Phalanx and the rest of the Imperial Fist fleet.

[@Happyface714]

They would just have Horus take command of it before the betrayal and they would have been like okay brother lol

[@dramsac17]

@@Ancient_Awaits I've heard it also singlehandedly stopped the entire invasion of the Sol system and the traitors never reached Terra.

[@Ancient_Awaits]

@@dramsac17 unfortunately no, mersadie osidon accidently summoned a metric shit ton of Daemons onto the ship which caused massive internal damage, which did end up saving the traitor fleets. Dorn originally planned to use Phalanx to destroy the traitor fleets the moment they reached Mars, their fleets wouldn't have been able to get through Phalanx.

[@alexandrosmakris5617]

Looking the numbers in the Lexicanum, this looks quite right: The 8 traitor legions had around 750.000 marines - 1.050.000 total marines, minus their loyal members and loses at the first battle, lets say 25% (300.000) The Big Three legions, had a total of 570.000, not even a two-to-one disadvantage By comparison the Salamanders, Iron Hands and Raven Guard, had only 280.000

[@yamahadrag69]

As fun as this all sounds, what I heard was more or less "Who's plot armor was thicker?" lol

[@primary2630]

Yeah exactly lol. Loyalists winning an ambusher outnumbered 3 to 1 is ridiculous plot armour

[@dexasmoru8333]

Yeah. I made a larger reply somewhere, but basically I can see these three actually managing to kill Horus. But there is no way they are winning the battle.

[@ssumbra5648]

@@primary2630 What you fail to take into consideration is that 1,5 of those 3 are completely retarded and the dark angels and ultramarines are extremely large by a factor of 2 or 3. The ultramarines are 2-3 times bigger than the raven guard and salamanders, the dark angels about twice as large. I did the math with the numbers of the lexicanum and the traitors outnumber the loyalists somewhere like 2 to 1 which is not that much when you consider that they can coordinate much better since they dont have as many moving parts. Also, angron isnt that effective, since he charges in like a dumbass, lorgar is quite trash, corax was able to quite easely bust him. That and you have to remember that the other 4 come in way later. The traitors are already getting mauled by a force which outnumbers them by 2 to 1 also and like majorkill said, fulgrim is a pretty loose cannon so u only have 2 primarchs against 2 of the best fighters plus 1 extra thats an insane strategist. Battle isnt clearcut at all

[@jakobschoning7355]

@@primary2630 But it is not 3 to 1. It is 3 legions against eight, which already isnt 3 to 1 and the Loyalists have two of the three largest legions, while the traitors have only the second biggest. And four of the Traitor Legions are at about two thirds to half strenght already due to Istvaan III. So it is a lot closer to 2 to 1 than 3 to 1 which still makes for bad odds but a lot better

[@ddandymann]

@@primary2630 In terms of numbers of astartes it's more like 2 to 1 as the loyalist legions in this hypothetical were some of the largest and the traitor legions were low on numbers after purging loyalists from their legions.

[@PelinalDidNothingWrong]

Stuff like this makes me want to see an entire what if series set around The Traitors winning The Horus Heresy and how that'd affect the Galaxy.

[@joshuahendrix1901]

I mean, the cabal claimed that it was the choice move, chaos would end up burning itself out in a couple thousand years and fade to entropy

[@PelinalDidNothingWrong]

​@@joshuahendrix1901 I can see it. As soon The Emperor is out of the picture,The Traitor forces would turn on each other and begin cannibalising themselves, meanwhile the few Loyalist's left kinda just turtle up in Ultramar,preparing for the inevitable invasion from The Traitors while occasionally having to fend off Pirates,Ork's and Drukhari. I like to imagine that's what would've happened.

[@myself2noone]

I'd like to see something like that, but like if Imperium Scundus survived. Not just what The Cabal said about burning it's self out.

[@Johnc259]

This is one of your best lore videos for the past 21/2 years. I always appreciate your sense of humor I don’t know what that says about me. I’m 70yrs old and have only been reading 40K books for the past 2yrs. I have always had the opinion that humor shows intelligence. Anyway, Happy Holidays. Peace

[@zerotwoeto3123]

THIS video is refreshing, a new topic. MAJORKILL FOR THE WIN

[@inquisitormaddox8581]

Space marine capabilities Would be nice to know How strong are they how fast they are etc it’s very inconsistent Hope one day majorkill makes a video about it

[@nicolaspaglione]

A marine can run 60km/h in power armor (maybe 60mph but I don’t want to check)

[@S_047]

The stats are what the writer wants them to be for that book or codex.

[@primary2630]

I dont think they'll ever just straight up say what they can do because there will always be a named character capable of greater feats

[@nicolaspaglione]

@@primary2630 kinda makes sense because not all space marines are equal the same way not all humans are equal

[@adrienwatson2179]

Whatever the writer needs. Sometimes they move faster than the eye can see, sometimes slow. Sometimes 1 shot kills them Sometimes 100, Depends on the story and if they have a name or not.

[@freddymcshreddy6586]

I love that your description for why the BA, DA and UM would be the best chapters for this is basically: -Dark Angels: They have lots of advanced weapons and tech from the Dark Age. -Ultramarines: They have superior numbers and tactics. -Blood Angels: They have Sanguinius.

[@vencislavgynev8282]

I think, that about the superior tactics, you must put DA here to. It is stated, that they are mastets of all kinds of combat tactics and warfare.

[@crispysatyr0355]

@@vencislavgynev8282 I can think od the Dark Angels as a spear that stabs the enemy while the ultramrines are like a net that slowly covers them, both are tactical gods.

[@vencislavgynev8282]

@@crispysatyr0355 Totally agree! If we talk about tactical superiority and versatility in combat UM and DA are the right people. Just imagine to fight against both of them at the same time, it will be something terrifying.

[@crispysatyr0355]

@@vencislavgynev8282 Now imagine the DA as the bullet and the UM as the gun, since tactics is already perfect they just fill in each others weaknesses. This would mean that the Da could start a crusade that could last 50 years without ever stopping being always supplied and maintaned and with each world they took the UM would organize them for more recruits.

[@guardsmenedwin6213]

Part two of Erda. I will not stop asking on every video.

[@mrshinybald2739]

That image of vulcan holding his fallen son actually brings a tear to my eye, he loved his men and that is admirable to me

[@dudeboydudeboy-zj8kd]

Lore on high lords of terra, imperial navy, and ecclesiarchy.

[@rislingpodiumperformance]

sanguinius was such a cheat code. He alone basically rips every other primarch limb from limb unless they are the sock puppet of chaos and even then he only loses when he's been fighting for a week without rest and been smashed by multiple god tier enemies

[@Thyinternet]

I’ve thought of a retcon where a reasonable and *well-informed* Leman shows up to boot Prospero but in fact offers Magnus a chance to redeem himself by bro teaming against the traitors at Istvaan. How would a combined 1k Sons and Furry force have fared on the black sands? Or another scenario where the original Istvaan loyalists were simply forwarned of the second wave betrayal at a time too late to change course but early enough to change plans? Imagine the more level headed Corax and Vulcan telling a hot headed Ferrus to sit down, that he’s being goaded by Fulgrim, and wait for the arrival of the rest of his legion. Ferrus, pissed as he was, isn’t Angron. He does have a (very) logical side and could acknowledge that Vulkan and Corax’ particular legion specialties in two distinctly effective kinds of asymmetrical warfare could turn the entire Istvaan system into a quagmire for the traitors, and slim advantage could be found in the traitors just not knowing that the loyalists in fact already know. It wouldn’t be a loyalist victory by any stretch but imagine the headache intact 10th, 18th, and 19th legions - plus a level headed Ferrus actually willing to delegate to his brother’s specialties - could inflict on the traitors. The road to Terra would have been very different.

[@TheGhjgjgjgjgjg]

What about the traitor legions having ammo that pierced space marine armor like paper? That alone gave them a massive advantage, maybe too much to overcome regardless

[@FMirage2000C]

Hey, Majorkill! Speaking of the Istvaan system, what about making a entire video around it, before, during, and after the Horus Heresy? That would be cool!

[@knightsljx]

Just a minor correction on the Space Wolves, they are actually highly, if not the most, disciplined legion. In the Horus Heresy novel involving Bjorn, he explains that the Space Wolves only outwardly look undisciplined, he said that in order to fight the way they preferred, that is with ferocity and aggression, they needed to be highly disciplined. If they were as undisciplined as others make them out to be, they would have long been destroyed or fell apart like the World Eaters. The Space Wolves only LOOK like they are fighting like berserkers, but they're really fighting as a cohesive pack

[@techypriest7523]

Space wolves are an honorable mention, since their brutality would easily put them above all but the world eaters. They’d easily enact a high casualty rate on the traitors which would arguably cripple several of the defending legions.

[@adrienwatson2179]

Not really Bjorn may say that But it doesnt make it canon, its just Bjorns opinion There are a few things in the 30k lore that disprove it Things like The Wolves taking massive damage and casualties when doing a sinple task like exiting the Warp.... a CALM warp No other legions have this issue even with insane Warp storms, the Scars, Fists, UM, etc all can keep cohension, the Wolves cant. There are quite a few examples of this The Wolves were also the 2nd pr 3rd moat viciously brutal and enoyed tormenting and torturing people They were an awful legion If you had said this aboit 40k Walves under Grimnar, id agree fully. They are a whole different story than 30k savages

[@dubstepXpower]

Sure lmao 😂. I think he just hates the world eaters.

[@adrienwatson2179]

Or that time the Space Wolves tried to kill Thousand Sons and Word Bearers because they were protecting a library. Totally undisciplined tbh

[@FoxHound-ut1hu]

@@adrienwatson2179 when did the Wolves ever take massive casualties during a calm warp jump?

[@Channel-23s]

Biggest W besides Big E turning into Fucking Furniture and our Angel being slapped down and made to meet FarrusManus and Alpharus/Omegon

[@AEGISDEFENSE]

I think the space wolves would have done fine. Maybe this is because of inconsistent writing. I also thought the wolves were savage yes, but in Lemans fight with Angron, he compromised Angron through tactics and had him surrounded by his wolves showing h the strength through tactics and team work.

[@josephbrunt7678]

The wolves get shat on when they make cameo appearances in other books.

[@TheWarmachine375]

0:13 Space Guts vs Space Fulgrim

[@2shadesofgray752]

Griffith

[@boartank]

It can not be overstated enough, pre-heresy Ultramarines are fucking massive. Emperor's Children and Death Guard wiped more than half of their fleet and forces in Calth.

[@g0dsr2ng3r]

Something is wrong your saying it was word bearers that surprised ultramarines at battle of calth like coward they were but if ultramarines have known that was trap word bearers would be destroyed entirely but what happened was just coward like word bearers were but that was heresy era battle I don't know other than that were ultramarines get high losses but word bearers were also slaughtered losing most of their forces in calth that they send there

[@ricktickb00m]

Hearing how the Dark Angels, Ultramarines and Blood Angels would have won Istvaan nearly made me cry 😢

[@odeon6139]

Ode to Darktide : "Some folks are born made to wave the Warp Hoo, they're green, pus and mildew And when the warband plays "Thank god it ain't Tzeentch" Ooh, they point the aids cannon at you, Lord It ain't me, it ain't me I ain't no Emperor's son, son It ain't me, it ain't me I ain't no Astartes one, no Some folks are born Tertium boon in hand Lord, don't they help themselves, Lord? But when the Inquisition come to the door Lord, the hive lookin' like a rummage sale, yeah It ain't me, it ain't me I ain't no Nurglefag' son, no, no It ain't me, it ain't me I ain't no fortunate foul one, no"

[@greengirl1818]

The fact “Orbibital bombardment” is still said, is amazing. So glad my ears didn’t deceive me!

[@The_trees_have_ears]

*8v1 siege against dorn and co* Dorn: jokes on you, I’m into that shit

[@have14theroad]

Pretty solid reasoning there Majorkill. Your takes on the lore are damn entertaining to listen to.

[@jewsheisty8133]

Video 30 of requesting each primarchs reaction to chaos and demons

[@KharnDaLoyal]

Can we get majorkill to make a vid that tells us how many marines each primarch could absolutely BODY

[@brandonwalker5011]

Space wolves were actually the perfect legion to send. At this point in the lore they are the only loyalist legion who had experience fighting astartes. Also the idea that they are mindless bezerkers is more of a meme than something supported by the lore. Granted it is both an in universe and out of universe meme but the books which have first person acoounts of them fighting do not corroborate it.

[@davewarner7046]

Completely agree. The SW extremely chaos resistant, anti-astartes force, and inherently the most cohesive units on the field.

[@orionparish9858]

There's also a chance that Ferrus, being who he is after Fulgrim's betrayal, would go to Isstvan V no matter what, perhaps arriving in time to catch the Traitor's fleets between his Legion and the Loyalists and making sure none escaped. Just a thought though. Would require the Emperor himself overriding Horus' orders to the Dark Angels, Blood Angels, and Ultramarines I would think. Or giving Dorn the power to do so.

[@rileyjessup2414]

I think ideal 3 loyalists at the time would be ultramarines, dark angels and the thousand sons

[@carlosjorge3888]

Wait i thought the burning of Prospero happened during Istvaan v

[@Goblinhandler]

@@carlosjorge3888 nah, it was a bit afterwards

[@painkillerauflauf5770]

Tzeentch would have propably turned them all to Chaos Spawns before he would have let them actually alter the course of the Heresy in benefit of the Loyalists

[@michaelhowell2326]

When I see Asian-looking Astartes it just doesn't register right. It always looks "off". It's just hard to imagine giant Asians.

[@KNJpd]

Your remarkable determination of figuring the most random of video topics instead of actually reading a book to give us new content has become deserving of respect at this point.

[@jamricsloe]

No. We cannot forget that Horus controlled the movements of each legions for years leading up to the battle. Movements that were intended to handpick which legions were available. Checkmate. The Imperials were stupid not to have considered it.

[@AB-eb2wy]

I was just typing that Space Wolves would have ensured that at least one traitor primarch was killed by Leman Russ, killing more traitor marines, but likely suffering more casualties of their own-then you said the exact same thing, haha.

[@Agrargorn]

Space Wolves with their history would be one of the main Legions that you sent in this case. Their whole doctrine is, gettin the job done, no matter how. They would not rush in like the berserkers they were seen as, but probably way more tactical

[@keithgainey7853]

I agree. Remember Russ should have killed Horus, had he not hesitated. His legion alone dealt a mighty blow to the Sons of Horus.

[@soccrplayr232]

Yeah the whole the ultramarines outnumber the like 4 lowest population traitor legions by themselves after they killed their loyalists does help a good bit, honestly iirc the Dark angels were like the next biggest legion they might not have even been all that outnumbered even with the traitors having 5 more legions.

[@all_mighty_nurgle]

I got myself the black hoodie for the 400,000 sub thing and I haven’t got it yet but I can’t wait to get like everyday I check to see if it’s close to where I am or not and it hasn’t yet and majorkill keep up the good work you sexy ass Australian man live your videos and everything you do for the Warhammer community

[@15DAnglo]

the amount of joy it brought seeing this comment and reading your user name 🤣

[@all_mighty_nurgle]

@@15DAnglo I’m glad my comment was able to make you smile and my username is amazing isn’t it I am the all mighty nurgle aka the grandfather of all plagues

[@jakerooke174]

No matter how many time I hear it it is really badass that the lion was able to change the future right in front of a precogs face and he can do nothing about it

[@toddsikes7292]

for the algo, i think a vid on the soul drinkers legion would be good. first 40k book i ever read

[@Channel-23s]

The Traitors were basically a very Quick and agile enemy but were too dysfunctional and slow like a marathon runner who has a quick time at the halfway mark but loses steam and stamina and takes a long ass time to finish it going from 1ST to 10TH

[@dac314]

And if Sanguinius DID lose to Horus, the Black Rage would have swept across the battlefield, resulting in a total and 100% death rate.

[@teagers3900]

This was one of the best videos ever made. Its really showing how much better at formatting the video and understanding of the lore are on anther level from years ago.

[@adrienwatson2179]

Not really The basis for it is kinda wrong Like Majorkill said "The Traitors had a major advantage after isstvaan 5" They really didnt They were STILL massivly outnumbered after Isstvaan 5 and the Underdogs throughout most of the heresy. The Black library very deliberately shows this throughout the books They narrative is that because of Horus' genius and the help of Chaps, theyre able to push it so far. But even by the end of the Heresy theyre STILL heavily outnumbered....

[@adrienwatson2179]

I enjoy Majorkills stuff But hes not very good or knowledgeable with thr Lore

[@Jargolf86]

What to add? - For the Lion!

[@mikewaterfield3599]

I still say if Prospero never burned the whole thing goes very differently. Wolves not mauled by the 15th Magnus in play and loyal frees big E from the golden throne and has the 15th free to aid in the war effort.

[@redhood1060]

I kind of like the what if style of content. It’s interesting to hear your opinions on how things could’ve changed.

[@sakomanlee]

I feel that the Khan, Johnson, and even Roboute would have been a bit suspicious at having the Fucking Night Lords as backup. I agree with your assessment. Chaos in heaps of trouble.

[@V0IV0DE]

People saying... "Konrad would kill this and that Primarch" know nothing about Konrad's history and demised. He didn't kill any primarchs because he couldn't, he didn't kill because he never foreseen it, and he believed that he couldn't change the future when he saw it(as seen in his death and many other stories that featured him).

[@danielmcelroy8533]

Ferrus Manus not being a complete moron might have helped too. Fulgrim literally told him that Lorgar was with Horus when he tries to turn him. Ferrus files that info away under "irrelevant" for some reason.

[@Prometuis101]

If the Blood Angels, Dark Angles and Ultra Marines had been swapped out. They would have been decimated all the same, just with more casualties on the Chaos side. Konrad would of check-mated Sanguineous as for some reason he could land a blow that was fatal to him when they did meet. With those 3 legions out of the picture it's game over man.

[@PIJIM0N]

Konrad 'checkmates' Sanguinius? In what universe could that happen? The one time they fought, Sang didn't have armour and still it ended in a draw. A fully pissed of Sanguinius would decimate Konrad just as he did daemon Angron.

[@michaelkaiser4293]

Sang got merked, the rage would’ve overtaken the Blood Angels and they would wipe the deck

[@Prometuis101]

@@PIJIM0N Konrad tried to prove a point that he wasn't going to die until the assisian took him out. To prove this he allowed Sang to take a swing at him and it was stopped inches from him. Sang took the swing to prove they were not fated as Konrand believed. It's not to do with Konrands fighting ability.

[@PIJIM0N]

@@Prometuis101 I know that. But do you seriously think that Konrad is a better fighter than Sanguinius? 🤣

[@Prometuis101]

@@PIJIM0N No not at all, I think the only one possibly able to kill Sanguinuis would be Russ if and only if he used the spear of the emperor. Also think this is why he hates the spear. But I think Sanguinis is the best fighter out of all the Primarch. Other than the 2nd of course.

[@jacobbragg9958]

I'd agree with you're decision considering tactics. Maybe I'm biased but I think Space Wolves are exactly who you send in a situation like that. There's a lot more to them than just wolves, hence the cunning of the wolf.

[@LordInter]

Blue berries were so so large that would of made a difference but I'm not sure if any of the others had been shot in the back they'd of done better unless the blue berries were there. Sanguinius was so tired at the seige, here, not even sweating, just in a REALLY bad mood

[@RuneKingOleifr]

As a son of Russ, i reluctantly agree on Majorkill’s point. Our ferocity would only be rivaled by the maddened rage of the World Eaters, but our sheer strength would indeed not be enough to win the war in the end, as well as our poor record of discipline. We’d take out a lot more traitors for sure, but without proper tactics the likes of which Guilliman can produce, the Vlka Fenryka would fall.

[@shimazutakuma1031]

Big E: well? Gman, Sanggy, Johnny? What will we call your strike team? The Three Primarchs: IMPERIUM SECUNDUS, SIR! 😂

[@jiyuhong5853]

If they had been sensible and waited in orbit for the 2nd wave, they would have discovered the treachery in space and stood a better chance. then they could have annihilated the traitor armada BEFORE orbitally dropping to the surface.

[@joeford5181]

Horus looking at The Lion: LOL I'm in trouble

[@calugareanuvasile372]

Can you make a video about geography in warhemmer fantasy and warhemer 40k

[@alanmcdeed2795]

To be fair, Ferrus Manus charged head on because he firmly believed that numerous reinforcements would arrive and crush the traitor legions. Maybe he speculated that the Emperor's Children would retreat and Fulgrim will run like a coward if the reinforcements arrived, so he went ahead for the chance to slay Fulgrim but it turns out this was a fatal mistake.

[@shotgunsandsmoke]

Could you do a video on the Imperium Ascendant fan fiction? I think it was written really well

[@ianharrison5758]

I second this

[@ericcadman1329]

He did a video on if the Horus Heresy hadn't happened, the universe was much nicer and probably similar to that fic.

[@ianharrison5758]

@@ericcadman1329 facts, but I really liked the aspect of the lost primarchs being there and fleshed out, the emperor being a WAY better dad and the whole scene of the emperor telling chaos to Run like bitches was straight fire. Too bad it was never fully completed

[@Thought_Processing_]

A few things; 1. The Imperial Fists numbered at best 100,000 marines. As were the blood angels. 2. Dark Angles had at best 200,000 likely less as that was the number prior to the Rangdan Xenocides, so by this time they could have had maybe 170,000 3. So including the Ultramarines at 250,000 that is a grand total of approximately 520,000 loyalists 4. Traitors presentl would come to a total of maybe twice that: 110,000 Luna Wolves 170,000 Iron Warriors 140,000 Word Bearers (minimum probably far more) 120,000 World Eaters 50,000 Emperors children 70,000 Death Guard 90,000 Night Lords (lower estimate) 130,000 Alpha Legion (guess possibly way more) For a total of 880,000 marines at a minimum. It could be as high as 1,000,000. (And yes those numbers are post the purge of the loyalists) I don’t care if the loyalists have Captain Genocide on their side being blindsided by that in open terrain is going to cripple whichever legion is present. It would seriously hurt the traitors though and I do think that Guilliman would have immediately ordered a retreat and asked Lion to force a path out. 5. I do feel that if Horus could have ensured that he would be fighting these three legions or even just the Ultramarines and Dark Angels he would have done so as he could have removed the biggest threat’s possible, but since he couldn’t be sure it would just be them he opted for what happened. Source: warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Space_Marine_Legions

[@seankelly69]

Sanguinius could have turned up by himself and killed all the traitors, their primarchs, and all their titans, and then taken on Kabanda and angron

[@Kareszkoma]

I would say it's just plot armor or something, but Sanguinius was just really.. really OP. The guy was beheading dozens of traitor Astarte, mid flight, with his spear, with each strike, than went on to kill their Primarch, after he killed a greater demon, than stabbed Horus in the chest. Right through his plot armor. He also had a sword in his other hand.

[@primary2630]

@@Kareszkoma well yeah thats what plot armour is, just making a character OP for no reason except to tell the story

[@Kareszkoma]

​@@primary2630 Truthful. However Sanguinius is OP for a reason, and so are his sons. While it's probable that the Big-E stole some greater warp souls to make his future sons a bit better and maybe to create his own 'Greater Daemons', there Sanguinius received two instead of one. One dark and one light. His sons are described to have been taken from the lost and the forgotten of the underworlds, those touched, mutated, or twisted by the warp. Upon the insertion of the geneseed however, they have healed. They have been more tried and strengthened than most. Without Sanguinius however, they often were more beast than man, tearing everything to shreds. Sanguinius is both of these aspects in one. And a bit of vampire. Not always flawless or making the best decisions. Also, having some of the most combat challenges. Growing surely and steadily. His psychic powers also greatly improving, even more so after facing foes such as Kabanda. To whom he cruelly lost too. Regardless, in the end, his sons inherited both of the angels. The dark and the light.

[@jorgeserna8411]

I don't know if I was supposed to laugh at this. But I did. And really hard.

[@randomlygeneratedname]

@@Kareszkoma to be fair you try fighting the equivalent of a biological fighter jet sangi does have the right to be a bit op most of the primarchs have plot armour for the most part. Yes his space jesus style story doesn't help

[@quarkedbutt3957]

Majorkill have you thought of doing some lore on Starship Troopers the book? I think the Drop Pods there and especially the Power Armour (it's where the whole idea came from) are especially interesting.

[@tnttv5360]

One point of critic here. While you mentioned the strengths of the loyalist primarchs, you didnt reconsider peter turbo and how he would react to the new situation. The guy is a fucking genius, but the argument was a bit one sided.

[@roguecarrick816]

Blood Angel's fleet is massively capital ship oriented. The red tear hears the Eisenstein freak the fuck out, & opens up. Rest of the ba fleet; ok guess were doing this now. Dark Angel's and ultramarine legions; follow them? Follow them. Red tear Wade's in blasting what sounds suspiciously like hearts of oak as it bee lines for the vengeful spirit. Guiliman catches an Express ride back into orbit/stays there from the start, coordinating the fleets, which is rapidly devolving into red tear decides to sodomize x traitor warship, ultramarines run screen while it does so & dark Angel's flagship sits & waits for someone to try interfering. Horus throwing a tantrum his bombardment never turned up. Hails his fleet, has ear drums ruptured by blood Angel's channeling royal navy. Why no bombardment? Apologies sir we're attempting to find a battery that isn't exposed to vacuum, on fire, or full of pissed off crimson paladins looking for someone to stab. Are those deathwing? AHH My spine! "Several seconds of screaming and plasma fire" we appear to have been boarded...

[@josephbrunt7678]

You forget the God machine the Lion has hands on.

[@Rebelcommander6]

Well argued! As loathe as I am to give Papa Smurf too much credit, this is a fair assessment

[@unintentionallydramatic]

Why's seemingly everyone covering this lately? Has there been a new book? Commemorative artwork? What am I missing? . . . . Can we please get a video on pre-unification faction of old earth?

[@somedegreeofsundown2338]

that stubble made me think: we need a bearded majorkill.

[@Jagonath]

The idea that sending the Imperial Fists would have caused Terra to fall always seemed a bit iffy. Considering they were sent. They only got as far as Phall, but still.

[@usernamunavailiable]

Not to mention there would still be the custodes, and if Russ would have allowed Magnus to surrender he could have taken over on the Golden Throne.

[@Jagonath]

@@usernamunavailiable True, but Russ did allow Magnus to surrender. He gave him one hour to surrender his legion but Magnus never replied (however the message was sent via Kasper Hauser, which the Wolves incorrected assumed was an agent of Magnus, but who was actually an agent of Erebus). In Echoes of Eternity, Vulkan also accuses Magnus of refusing to surrender, as Magnus was wrongly convinced that Russ was sent to kill him instead of disarming his legion and returning Magnus to Terra.

[@drewschreiber6423]

dude ive listened to over 50 hours of your content and this is the first notification ive got from youtube for a new upload.

[@mellasio3911]

major dont forget DON send quite a big size of imperial fist to Istvaan ....they might show up above the planet and mess stuff up in the void and help the loyalist

[@SmileyBoi21]

Anyone else thinks that Sanguinius was the protagonist in the Horus Hersey?

[@adamkiraly9805]

The wolves and dark angles both would have been suspicious enough to question the "loyal" legions

[@jovpal5685]

Before fully watching the VIDEO My bet would be: Ultramarines , BloodAngels and Space wolf would have easily won that Any 2 combination of UM BA or SW and 1 original Istvaan massacre loyalist would still kick ass

[@MrFallenone]

Not including Emperors legion killers ... tsk tsk.

[@jovpal5685]

@@MrFallenone I'm not quite good at lore yet so who are you referring to? the DA???

[@greg_4201]

@@jovpal5685 the Space Wolves are basically the anti-Legion Legion. it's stated as much. although the lore reasons don't really make sense if you ask me... the idea is that they are more brutal/ferocious, but whatever 🤷🏻‍♂️ doesn't really add up that that would be the essential factor. also there are other Legions who can be equally brutal, if not more so. there was also a hint that they are 'pure in purpose' in a simplistic sort of way... they just do what the fuck they're told and don't think much, but again, is that really required? and aren't there others like that? lastly the Wolf is described as being loyal to a fault. but so is the Lion, Girlyman, Sanguineous and others... but hey, wolves/dogs 🤷🏻‍♂️ but for sure they are a blunt force/shock-and-awe legion... anyway the idea is sold as a combination of all the above factors.

[@jovpal5685]

@@greg_4201 Hence if the SW and UM were there instead of the Salamanders or Raven Guards the outcome would have been different IronHands can survive a onslaught

[@starhammer5247]

@@jovpal5685 Space Wolves would end up doing what the Iron Hands did and die. The only difference is that they'd be a bit more effective, and a Traitor Primarch may end up dead. They don't really listen to the other legions all that often. The Dark Angels, Ultra Marines and Blood Angels have the best battle chemistry out of all possible combinations. Not only are their tactics compatible, but they're also the most sound of mind when it comes to strategy, more than willing to work together to accomplish a set goal. There are also individual Primarch abilities. The Lion's intuition, Guilliman's all-rounded nature and Sanguinius' foresight make for a much more terrifying force. There's also the fact that the Wolves are on the smaller side regarding the legion size, while the Ultra Marines, Blood Angels and Dark Angels are all on the bigger size. Also, the Lion was given some DAOT technology by the Emperor. That shit's going to hurt. There's a reason these three are the best options for running the Imperium if they're the only ones left.

[@Inquisitor_Vex]

Glorious, glorious, Hawkboy.

[@zarpp9411]

Also if Sanguinius did die the Blood Angels would go super sayan like during the seige of Terra and solo kill everyone.

[@jonnyteutonic5290]

I wouldn't sleep on the Salamanders as a potent force in the battle, they're into heavier/anti-armor weapons just as much as flamers. And let's not forget Vulkan was literally pulling apart dreadnoughts by himself and stomping traitors into the dirt, so much so Perturabo knew it took a TACTICAL NUCLEAR STRIKE directly on his position just to halt his momentum. Man was compassionate but he was also a damned monster.

[@DaisyBee11]

The fact that the Imperial Fists could alone do a better job than Ultramarines, Blood Angels and Dark Angels combined feels good

[@timothylyons5686]

That's why Dorn didn't go. He sat behind his walls because he's yellow.

[@dalemoss4684]

The element of surprise Horus possessed at isstvan cannot be overstated. The idea of a primarch and his legion turning traitor was unconscionable; if perhaps not without precedent

[@usernamunavailiable]

2-11 so it wasn't beyond doubt.