It's time to stop asking "Was Harry Potter ever good?"

[@CouncilofGeeks]

If you need to be brought up to speed on how JK Rowling is transphobic, here's some resources: Explaining JK Rowling’s Transphobia (by Jessie Gender) - kzbin.info/www/bejne/lXilhnSoeZpkgbs How is JK Rowling Transphobic? Trans Guy Responds (by Jammidodger) - kzbin.info/www/bejne/oKvPepKVrb2SbZY The Witch Trials of J.K. Rowling | ContraPoints (by ContraPoints) - kzbin.info/www/bejne/e563YZxmraxpsMk J.K. Rowling Is Just a Misogynist (by Kat Blaque) - kzbin.info/www/bejne/r5_KZoyolJqHr9E JK Rowling's New Friends (by Shaun) - kzbin.info/www/bejne/habCqamOf6-ebc0 JK Rowling is getting worse (Graham Norton, royalties, and the presumption of innocence) (by me) - kzbin.info/www/bejne/oHm2aX6np9ycfJo

[@williammorahan4907]

Let the Record state that Daniel Radcliffe does not approve. And I feel Boycotting only hurts the little guys.

[@Rexdrinksredbull]

@@williammorahan4907Genuine question here - who are the little guys in this scenario? The people involved in the movies have already gotten paid, book publishers have already gotten paid. The people who made Hogwarts Legacy have already been paid. They all get paid way before this stuff comes out. The money all these things makes goes to movie studios, game publishers, etc. Maybe I'm missing the forest for the trees here but who is the little guy here?

[@williammorahan4907]

@@Rexdrinksredbull I could be wrong mind you, I just feel that boycotting is unfair to all the overlooked masses that worked on the books, movies, games, ect.

[@Rexdrinksredbull]

⁠​⁠@@williammorahan4907 I understand where you're coming from, it's a noble way of thinking. The way I see it, the people involved in HP stuff (actors, people who work in publishing, game developers, etc) have gotten their paycheck no matter if we choose to buy it or not. When you're online, it can seem like everyone around you is being a part of the same boycott, but many aren't, so there is still money being made there. I do understand where you're coming from, I had similar viewpoints for a while, but when it comes to big franchises like HP, boycotts are difficult to see in any big way.

[@williammorahan4907]

@@Rexdrinksredbull I understand entirely. Thank you for explaining your reasoning in a respectful and honest manner.

[@thedreadpiratewesley]

This is probably a really important conversation to have right now because, to be frank, I think the "it was never that good anyway" trick is gonna be harder for people to use with Gaiman's work. We have to be able to stand with victims of harm even if (maybe especially if) the perpetrator made excellent things that we have loved.

[@owlmoose1]

Harder, maybe, but not impossible - I’m seeing it already, and I suspect it will spread pretty quickly.

[@ShanikaHart-dt4ol]

In all seriousness, I suspect people are going to generally be of the opinion, in about 30 years time that very few people are actually 'good' and that people will just turn the page when they discover some horrible scandal about me, I mean some other person.

[@polaris_draws]

@@owlmoose1 Same, I doubt it will reach the same magnitude because Gaiman is relatively more niche than Rowling and, if he has any sense, will learn to shut up about this and just hide in his house.

[@gRinchY-op5vr]

I've already seen people leave comments on videos to do with the Gaiman accusations that his work was never that good anyway...

[@thegodfeather9862]

I'm already seeing it start about Neil Gaiman. There's a post going around claiming he plagiarised other writers, but with no evidence to back it up. I've spent hours scouring the internet searching for an interview to no avail. (Which is not to say it doesn't exist.)

[@gwengoodrich]

A few years ago I saw this sentiment that “it’s good Rowling outed herself as a bigot, because it made people acknowledge that the series is problematic.” The implication that the material harm she’s causing trans people is worth it for people to have better media literacy about a 20 year old series really rubbed me the wrong way

[@moonwhispers]

Well, she could have kept her bigotry on the down-low (like a lot of celebrities and billionaires do), just quietly donating millions to the cause, and a lot of folks would never have known, so in some respects, her becoming a public rage-case made it easier. But she also became a pillar of the bigot community so overall I think you're right, and it's a net negative.

[@satori2890]

Her series is overtly racist against muggles, and House elves. Then there is Death Eaters and Mz Umbrigde😊

[@Deepstab1]

​@@satori2890 girl thats called conflict...you cannot have the power fantasy of kicking abusers in the ass if there are no abusers on your stories

[@Mynameshelenbtw]

Arent the muggles oppressr class? Since we are stupidly reducing this series to real life dynamics​@@satori2890

[@thebeccafly]

That’s weird. Since she outted Dumbledore when none of us even asked.

[@Batgirl219]

Rowling's main problem imo is an ego problem. She can't take criticism or being corrected in any form. Which is why she resists editors and why she's gone so far down the terf rabbithole, to the point she now denies Nazi war crimes. When this all started, the views she was sharing were transphobic, but they were more run-of-the-mill transphobia you might get from any un-or-misinformed cis person. But she got criticized so she doubled down and doubled down and doubled down and doubled down again. I think that every time she gets proven wrong, she takes on a new ridiculous conspiracy theory to explain it away rather than face the fact that she's capable of being wrong, like when she was proven wrong about the dangers of gender affirming care, she started believing trans supportive healthcare workers were part of a global conspiracy to milk a minute, disproportionately impoverished portion of the population for money.

[@grannypeacock]

@@Batgirl219 my kids and I had that exact conversation about her. She shared a lot of opinions with friends of mine. Over time those friends have either come around or doubled down. None of them just stayed in the vaguely uncomfortable place they started

[@thegrinchsendshisregards3542]

this 👆

[@TheDumdei]

I don't think she's unique in that. It's a problem for a lot of problematic creators. Joss Whedon is the first that comes to mind. Since his outing as a POS, it's become clear that a lot of his bad behavior was rooted in not being able to accept that his work/ideas might be worth tweaking. Examples I can think of: James Marsters has cited an incident where Whedon got aggressive with him early on after Marsters's popularity as Spike made Whedon have to retool his plans for the character, who was originally supposed to die. Implication being that Whedon blamed Marsters for ruining his brilliant plan for the direction of Buffy S2. Similarly, Whedon complained a lot about working with Donald Sutherland on the Buffy movie because Sutherland would apparently alter the lines. There is nothing that's ever been said that it was anything more than that - simply that Sutherland wasn't willing to acquiesce to Whedon's genius dialog, and Whedon just really hated that fact, especially that he didn't have the power to enforce it otherwise at that point in his career.

[@Deepstab1]

I think writers without a strong ego just dont make it in the publishing business, also every creative or artist are used to hear "you are wrong! Work this way! do it this way!" and still find themselves well and fine following their instincs

[@specksofdust]

While bigots are frequently described as "taking the mask off, in the case of Rowling (and many others), she put the mask on and it became her face.

[@HarryLovesRuth]

You gave me a perfect phrase *"To turn our noses up at the idea that Harry Potter was ever good is to act like the problem is with the fans."* I've been trying to articulate why I get so irritated with people who claim that HP, or Gaiman, or Chick-fil-A sandwiches have always sucked, actually. It's reditecting the blame to the consumer of a product, not the producer who did the harm. It's purity signaling and putting people down. It's telling people who are trying to make sense of their loss that they brought it on themselves. The fans of an author (or fast food sandwich) are responsible for the author's behavior. Moving that responsibility on to the fans is cruel.

[@QuintMorrison6]

This is an idea I’ve been jokingly calling “post-shadowing” where people look through the past of a figure they once loved or were a fan of, searching for signs they should have known all along that the person was awful. As you put it, this is to make them feel smart and superior to everyone else while they were just dumb consumers. Thing is, if their premise is correct, they were a dumb consumer as well. They can’t accept that they couldn’t see their favorite creator for who they were, either because no one could or because it wasn’t something we thought to consider. TLDR: something something, the left eats itself while the right unites.

[@SplotchTheCatThing]

I think there's an element of self-blame for letting it have meaning to you when you hold onto thoughts like that for long enough And that's not healthy or fair to yourself -- it's not your fault that years later, the author later revealed herself to be a garbage person Vera makes the point of likening it to a breakup. I think it's a good metaphor. You were misled about a person's character and then, in a sense, betrayed. I think it's important when that happens to keep in mind who did the betraying, when it wasn't you.

[@CristianMartinez-hg6xu]

Maybe it's because I fear that I have to prepare for the next scandal, but I have a scary hypothetical. What would the Internet and Fandoms do if the following people turn out to be either evil IRL or just the worst politics in the future? 1. Any of the main Star Wars creators: George Lucas, Timothy Zahn, Dave Filoni, Lawrence Kasdan 2. Rick Riordan 3. Alex Hirsch 4. Dana Terrace 5. Lemony Snicket/ Daniel Handler 6. Steven Spielberg 7. Christopher Nolan 8. Phillip Pullman 9. Bryan Konietzko and Michael Dante DiMartino 10. Cornelia Funke 11. Henry Selick 12. Any other Big Name Disney, Pixar, Ghibli or DreamWorks creative. 13. Guillermo Del Toro I want to prepare ahead of time because it seems each time I feel I can at least enjoy such and such story or franchise the "auteur" makes the news in the worst way.

[@katherinek6166]

I have a feeling that the timing of this video is at least somewhat connected to the Gaiman turning out to be a horrible human being. It's relatively easy, as a rhetoric device, to distill JK's works down to the quality of writing and specific themes and say, "Yeah, it was just bad." It misses the cultural impact and the themes that weren't bad, but again, it's relatively easy to portray this way. When you take Gaiman's work, it's suddenly harder to justify. And if all you have as a defense against a problematic author is, "Well, their work was never good, actually," then there's a problem. Absolute monsters can sometimes create really good, impactful art, even if it's not a general rule, and we have to know how to deal with that.

[@jackdavinci]

I agree with HP and NG, that just feels like sour grapes. But Chick-fil-A I felt was massively overhyped even before they were controversial. Like, it's ok, but I could not understand why it was so popular that it was causing traffic issues lol

[@SailorDisco]

Something for people to keep in mind, trans policy in the UK has taken a turn for the worst since her transphobia came to light and she’s often cited by the people with the power to make that policy. She’s not the only contributing factor but she is a major one and the loudest.

[@NathanChick-n8q]

Yeah and Wes Streeting banned puberty blockers and he's a Labour health minister, labour are not supposed to play into transphobia yet they did. It doesn't make sense from a PR aspect either being transphobic is not going to win an election, handling the economy funding the NHS Education etc that's what wins votes. So labour have no reason to be transphobic I suggest Wes Streeting step down.

[@lordmew5]

You mean for the better?

[@SailorDisco]

@ I do not.

[@sinimeg]

I saw someone making a point, saying how the problematic issues on Harry Potter were issues that could be seen in a lot of books and series made in the same period of time, because authors were less educated in certain issues back then (that doesn’t mean that there weren’t published stuff without those issues ofc, just that they were a minority). And also that the point of abandoning Harry Potter is not because it is bad, but because the author is a TERF, and making it seem like the series wasn’t good it takes the focus from the actual issue, that is that the author sucks. Same with Gaiman, we’re not giving up his books because they’re suddenly bad, but because he’s a rapist and he sucks. We need to accept that bad people can create good books and series that had value when we didn’t know who they truly were, and that we’re losing that once we stop engaging with them. Also, it’s dangerous to think that only bad people can write about dark or toxic topics, because some people just want to explore those topics in the safety of fiction, and trying to demonize that could become a witch hunt really fast.

[@saschabittner8155]

Exactly.

[@polaris_draws]

Fucking thank you for saying this! I've noticed there's a trend in criticism of JKR where the problematic elements in her work are framed as "we should've seen the foreshadowing, this was here the whole time." And that's not entirely true and we might be in a very different place right now if there was more criticism of JKR that wasn't satanic panic nonsense, but writing that stuff doesn't make JKR a bad person. You can write a bad trope on accident, you can't write "TERF wars" on accident. Focus on things we absolutely know she did with intent when calling her a bad person please.

[@saschabittner8155]

@@polaris_draws So true. Now I'm seeing videos in my feed about HP being ableist, which I would usually be interested in if I were still in that fandom, but I don't care at this point. (Also, JKR was FAR from the only one writing even more ableism than there is now.).

[@dante6985]

I do think the anti "Cho Chang / Seamus Finnegan" crowd is fishing for problems when those really are Asian and Irish names (a little on the nose but not racist). There absolutely is e.g. fatphobia, that's fair, but the bipoc name microaggression allegations always annoyed me.

[@polaris_draws]

@ Seamus Finnegan is a stereotype, but as I understand it the main issue with Cho Chang is that while "Cho" and "Chang" are real Chinese names, they are both surnames. It's like if you named a character Johnson Barker, it's just not a thing. Cho is also evident with Rowling's larger world building issues with the Wizarding World outside of Britain, and especially the anglosphere, where a lot of the names in other languages read like she used Google translate. And that's not even touching her issues with how she's talked about indigenous American stories fitting into the Wizarding world...

[@pallas9113]

When a creator is exposed of being a piece of shit, there's often a wave of people saying "their work was no good anyway", which... I understand the impulse, but is actually quite dangerous, as it links talent with morals. Someone who made wonderful things can still be a piece of shit; someone who's a piece of shit could still have made something wonderful and impactful.

[@HansLemurson]

It's kind of a "sour grapes" attitude.

[@Tobelia]

Yeah it’s propping up the idea that authors who make good work can’t be bad people, which absolutely propagates the same problems and means that artistic reputation can *continue* to act as a shield for abuse and bigotry.

[@SageWon-1aussie]

Success and rewards are the measure of value, right? /s

[@LolaLink]

It reminds me of "attractiveness means good". If it's a commodity that can be used, then it's woven into morality. Doing the right thing is a lot harder, it's a constant and deliberate effort. And that doesn't benefit capitalism. Selling morality as a thing you can achieve by using the right products or being productive in society is more lucrative. If someone wants to try and be a "good person", then they need to be aware of their mistakes and constantly try to make the right choices for the good of others. None of us will be perfect, but that isn't the point. It doesn't take perfection to not actively hate an entire group of people or to hurt others to satisfy yourself. My favourite books from childhood have not come out unscathed from problematic authors. I still love the books. I can't read them, I can't recommend them, but I can't say that they didn't engage me. I can't lie and say they weren't my best friends. But if I was to throw them away as absolute trash in my mind, I'd just be more open to idolizing another person or assuming they're good because I like what they make. Harry Potter was a huge comfort in a very difficult childhood. Saying it wasn't very good doesn't help. An IP isn't as important as real people who are suffering, no matter how important it was to me.

[@FinK-gz9xv]

I agree. I mean I still believe JK Rowling is a bad writer independant of her lack of morals, but there are plenty of good writers who are bad people (like Neil Gaiman and Dan Simmons.)

[@multiverserift]

Me listening to Vera while chopping potatoes Vera: "super easy" me thinking: "barely an inconveniance, ehehe" Vera: "barely an inconveniance" me: WHOA

[@rainydaygaming5507]

I was folding my laundry and snapped to attention so hard.

[@aazhie]

😂😂 our boy Ryan is becoming a part of collective consciousness ❤🎉

[@celescoles]

Also I really dislike the “I never liked it that much anyway” stuff that comes out after a creator turns out to be a horrible person. It’s like washing their hands off of responsibility and try to have the moral high ground. It shifts the blame to people who liked the thing and it doesn’t help the conversation at all in terms of where to go from there.

[@larissabrglum3856]

For me it's not that I never liked Harry Potter (I was a moderate fan as a child), but it has genuinely been eye-opening to look back on the writing as an adult and see how much of Joanne's immaturity and mean-spiritedness come through. That's not to say that I think bad people will always make bad art (plenty of bad people have made great art), but I do think Ursula LeGuin had a point about Harry Potter in particular.

[@Urmumlel7025]

Hey, don't invalidate the people who actually hate Harry Potter from the jump.

[@aarondubourg3706]

I also hate that too but I'm on the other side. I never was a fan of HP. Sure I watched the movies, but either they were airing on TV or I was forced/pressured to go to the theater (I hate movie theater, all the loud noise and such). Now when I say that I wasn't a fan of HP I kinds feel the need to "prove" or "justify" it when it not there (as strong) for stuff like Hunger Games and Percy Jackson etc I don't need to "justify" not being a fan of those.

[@SageWon-1aussie]

There are probably a lot of people who never liked HP but didn't want to have to argue about it with the fandom.

[@WhiteWolf496]

I genuinely never really liked it that much. I was and still am wayyyyy more of a star wars guy. My sister loved HP, I've seen the movies and tried reading the first book as part of a school assessment. I got like 3 pages in and gave up. I'm just far less into fantasy than scifi. I watched the first 2 fantastic beasts movies, I didn't watch the 3rd because I didn't want to support jk despite the fact I work at a cinema and my tickets would only constitute $0.50 but the 2nd movie was so terrible that I had no interest anymore lol. If something similar happened with star wars, which itself has its fair share of problematic things, it would be very different. Although thus far, only the actual shows/movies have problematic content rather than outwardly terrible creators. However, The game star wars eclipse was announced a few years ago, developed by quantic dream, I've still not watched the trailer because david cage is a terrible person. If that game ever releases I would not be purchasing it.

[@darkishphoenix]

Well, another example would be Orson Scott Card. When I brought him up as an author I can't support in a scifi-fantasy reading group, people criticized the choice to cut out authors because of "opinions". I pointed out there are a lot of authors I'd probably have different opinions from but still read, but there's a difference between saying something ick in an interview and being on the board of an organization actively fighting against people's rights. Many people in that group just thought people were against him for being religious and had no idea he was on the board for the National Organization for Marriage at the time that they were the largest group fighting against marriage equality. The critics went silent after I pointed that out.

[@Donnagata1409]

Certainly. It was more difficult to give up Ender than to give up Harry Potter.

[@rebeccat9389]

Yes I’m still working on giving him and Ender up. I think less active social media / lower profile didn’t make it as in your face. :(

[@MidnightChimey]

I suspect there are many people out there who would have a similar reaction about JK Rowling because they just see her as someone who shared some controversial opinions one time while also adding that she "knows and loves trans people" and got a lot of hate for it. We have the media to thank for that.

[@cazandopixus]

Oh wow. I didn't know this. Thank you for sharing.

[@TheDawnofVanlife]

I think the hardest part of losing Harry Potter for many was not losing the best book ever (many of us have read other books, some we like better or as much), it was losing the Harry Potter community. When a good bulk of your identity is wrapped up in being a Harry Potter fan, giving up Harry Potter is giving up the shared community of that fandom. Rather its Harry Potter or something else, when the fandom community of it is so big losing it is usually harder then letting go of the work itself which may not even be your 'favorite'. The work is just a part of a larger experience of the fandom. And there has been a definite loss in not engaging in that community any longer, but I honestly can't see myself doing anything else in good consciousness but letting it go.

[@A6by]

I think the main reason those videos are so popular is because people want it to make sense - they want to see how horrible the books were, how horrible the woman is, and say "Ah, if I had looked closely enough, I could have avoided being hurt. Next time I'll pay more attention and my heroes won't be evil, because I'll find their awful views in their works and leave." It makes a lot of sense. People don't want to waste their time on a JK Rowling again. Who would? The problem is, sometimes, there's legitimately little to no indication in someone's works that they're evil. Not always - JK was an excellent example that her disgusting worldview was written through Harry Potter like rock candy. But you're not going to find the same level of evil if you go looking in Good Omens, or Ender's Game, etc. Sometimes it's just not apparent. We want there to be a trick to find authors who are terrible people, and it being hidden in their books makes perfect sense, but it's simply not always true. Sometimes it is, and that's why the videos on JK work so well - it's a perfect thesis. But it's not transferrable. That's the misleading part.

[@Lia-zw1ls7tz7o]

And also, that can happen when you don't have context for why some of the themes are bad. I noticed how many who point out the house elf slavery theme make parallels to US history and Americans would probably think of that at first. As a German, as a kid, I knew nothing of American history beyond the general "Columbus discovered it, they defeated us in WW2" and so when I read about house elves being slaves, my first thought was of Greek and Roman antiquity and their slaves. I only learned about slavery from the Asterix comics and didn't think that it was evil. I just connected it to the lack of machinery so they used other people, it was an aspect of the times.

[@Donnagata1409]

Ah, Ender's game!!! Such a disappointment! Thanks for bringing it up.

[@HumbleWooper]

@@Lia-zw1ls7tz7o On a similar note, Rowling's antisemitism flew right over my head as a kid. There's plenty of wrinkly twisty weirdly-proportioned people in fantasy, so the (now very obvious ever since it was pointed out to me) Jewish caricature built into her "banking race" meant nothing to preteen me. It just didn't cross my mind as a kid to think about it any more than that. Tons of nonhuman races in fantasy settings have a particular job or career field their people cover, it's been a trope since way before Rowling's days.

[@CreiwryJay]

To be absolutely fair, there was a thing in Ender's game (I think it was the third one? More Peter centered I think. It's been over 10 years since I've read it) that made me look up his politics because there was one scene/phrase or something that was really icky. Genuinely can't remember what it was and if someone knows, please let me know. I think it had to do something with a woman on another planet? You can't always tell, definitely, but I for one know that I am willing to give more of a benefit of doubt to artists whose art I enjoy consuming, simply because I think that they're actually trying to comment on the issue and maybe critique it or it's a character's pov not the author's. I get more immersed and invested in the story, so it can't be that bad, right? Just a general tendency to try and identify with the art. And when it turns out that the thing was on purpose/intended maliciously actually, it can be embarassing, even, to feel like you're duped. So the two options that are the least damaging to the ego: "I never liked it to begin with", and "actually this person is right/didn't mean it/it's not that serious bro".

[@404maxnotfound]

I fully agree with this video, but I think that there still is a place for discussing the issues in the harry potter books people just need to reframe the dicusssion from "was the series any good" to "How can I use the popularity of this series to get people with very little knowledge in what abelism, anti semetism, bigotry in general looks like unlearn their biases"

[@Moshenka]

Thank you for this video. It did hurt, closing the door to that world knowing that I could never in good conscience go back. It felt like ripping a part of my heart out - and everyone expecting me to be happy about it. Harry Potter was what got me through high school. Yeah, I got bullied. I had days when I went to sleep hoping I wouldn't wake up. I had nights when I couldn't stop crying. You know what helped? Escaping to Hogwarts. Harry Potter was what gave me the hope that no matter how bad, or how dark things got, there could still be a happy ending. That better days would come. That people were there, in my corner. FF a couple of years, JKR opened her ugy mouth and wrote that damned manifesto and it was like she dropped a nuke on Hogwarts herself. I remember watching your video on it. I was in uni, a couple of years out of high school and didn't have a lot of money to spare. During high school I wasn't buying any merch for various reasons either. But I wanted some! Merch, slytherin paraphernalia... I always wanted a wand, so much! I was saving up for it! Guess what? I never bought it. The manifesto came out and I never bought anything. And I wanted to. Ever since, every time I see some Harry Potter merch that I like, I want to buy it. But then I think of you, and Jessie and all the other trans people who are harmed by her money and I don't. And it hurts every time. It was JKR who took it away, not anyone else. It's 100% on her and I hate her for it. I hate her for what she did to you, to me, to us, to everyone hurt by her words and actions. And I don't need to have that acknowledged, I don't do it to be the tiny hero, I do it because it's the only right thing to do and because I want to be able to look at myself in the mirror. Because if it was ace people she was hurting, it would be me in need of your support. But it still feels nice. It feels good to not feel bad about hurting when I turn away from something that once meant a whole lot to me. That once helped save my life. So thank you and godspeed. Take good care of yourself, because you're a wonderful person who deserves good things. I mean that. Aaaand now I made myself cry, so Imma stop this... essay? confession? word vomit? and go finish watching the video. I just needed to get this off my chest, please ignore it.

[@Frogface91]

❤

[@KittenLove536]

Thank you for writing this. I'm trans and it bothers me that when JK's mask first slipped, until i watched Vera's videos i still wanted to buy HP merch. Because i was also barely out of high school, i was trying to pinch pennys for college, and dreamed of buying so much merch. Then Rowling dropped her mask and i initially wanted to put my head in the sand. In some ways, i did. But the reminders that i was just a kid who wanted Harry to be a protective big brother against my bullies and that i'm not alone with that is nice.

[@aazhie]

​@@KittenLove536understandable. I think it helps knowing that the actors who play HP, Ron and Hermione are good people who would protect you from bullies, if they had magic ❤

[@notjamin]

In my opinion the claim that Harry Potter was always completely bad also plays into the idea that talent is tied to morality. It's like people desperately want bad people to be incapable of making good things, because it would be so much simpler if that was the case. Unfortunately the much more complicated and uncomfortable truth is that horrible people can be just as talented as saints, and that some of the things you like, no matter how well made, will end up being created by shitty people. Talent is not an indicator of morality.

[@TheDumdei]

Some of our greatest filmmakers were absolutely terrible people.

[@IndigoAlpha]

As someone who’s an ex-HP fan, I’ll acknowledge that yes, the Harry Potter is an iconic, good series. Almost a childhood rite of passage in my family circle. I honestly wanted to go to the Wizarding World in Orlando for the longest time. But when JK dropped her manifesto, I knew I could never give her another dollar. No more Ravenclaw gear, no Hogwarts RPGs, no Wizarding World. After all, money IS power. I may have loved Harry Potter, but I love the trans people in my life and trans people *more*. So, so much more. I want them all to be safe, loved, happy, and have all rights and opportunity that this life has to offer. I’ve also watched a good amount of those “HARRY POTTER: PROBLEMATIC” video essays, they are a lovely schadenfreude salve and they bring up many good points, my take on them is this; Harry Potter is a beloved, iconic, and enrapturing work with some deep, dark flaws that say a lot more about the woman who wrote it than any of the fans whose hearts were broken by her.

[@tardisnet9487]

My problem with the "it was never good anyway" argument is that it implies that art of merit only comes from good people which is unhealthy. JK Rowling, Joss Wheadon and Neil Gaiman are still artists with talent and its worth at least acknowleding that in order to examine the complexity of the issues surrounding them. If Wagner wasn’t talented he wouldn't still be discussed today

[@brqh3gre]

I'm sure that there are good artist who are bad people, but those are terrible examples. Gaiman's books are mostly just watered down knock offs of Tanith Lee's. Almost everything Whedon produced is trash except for Buffy. And in that case he activity worked against a lot of the elements that made it such a good show. Like he wanted Spike to be a one dimensional villain who dies. And was furious that he became a main character. Rowling is the better out of those three, but that's not saying much. Picasso gets my vote for being a good artist who was a bad person. But I'm willing to hear arguments to the contrary

[@uriel7395]

@@brqh3gre And this comment right here is a wonderful example of the childish thought processes people have when someone gets revealed to be awful

[@brqh3gre]

@@uriel7395 Which comment? Mine? I actually thought all of that about those people before they were revealed to be awful. And like I said I do think Picasso is a great artist. It just the under capitalism the artists who become the most successful are the ones hellbent on exploiting others, not the ones devoted to creating great art. Then the average person who isn't exposed to much art and only knows the the art made by capitalist exploiters loves it and thinks that it is 'great art' because they don't know anything else. It's like if a whole county only drank diet orange soda they would think that it was normal. And would probably be grossed out by real orange juice if they tasted it We've been conditioned to love mediocre garbage and project meaning on to it that it doesn't actually have

[@Splattedable]

@@brqh3gre You're making this about how you have good taste and always saw these artists for what they are. It's more than a little condescending towards those who did enjoy their work and contributes nothing to the discussion. It also makes me wonder if you actually watched the video?

[@brqh3gre]

​@@Splattedable Taste isn't just taste though. F D Signifier just dropped a video called 'If Drake is you favorite rapper.....' that sums up a lot of my thoughts about Rowling, Whedon, and Gaiman....and a lot of their fans (hopeful not all of them). Like when I was a kid in the early 2000s every adult in my life who was crazy about Harry Potter (which was most of them) was in hindsight really abusive. While the ones who didn't get HP and thought it was over hyped were the somewhat good and supportive ones. No exceptions! The only reason I know about Whedon is because my ex was really into him. And she would straight up do the same kind of stuff to me that characters in his shows did. And every Gaiman fan I've ever met is either a really creepy guy, or a women bounces from one abusive guy to another and never seems to understand why they are so bad. And I have of course consumed all types of messed up media too, but it always made me feel sick, and I always wanted more. That's not just 'taste' So if you love and defend cheep garbage made my really bad people that endorses their beliefs......then that says something about you. I'm not saying you're bad for liking it in the first place because that's all of us. But you should be able to recognize how and why it's band and move on. You don't even need to stop liking it. Just give people the space to say 'yes this is trash that is a product of and a contribution to the messed up culture we live in'

[@matt0044]

Frankly, I’m more intrigued in the aspect of how JK Rowling made such a cultural juggernaut yet turned out like this. How Harry Potter stood the test of time, warts and all. What exactly keeps people coming back and new readers coming in? And I mean outside of those who know the depth Rowling sunk to. I see shelves dedicated to nothing but Potter at Barnes & Nobles galore to this day.

[@ZannyAisling]

i mean, ‘standing the test of time’ in “general audience popularity” & financial success i guess, but like. DID it stand the test of time otherwise? i do not believe it did, even setting aside my gut instinct to demand it be recognize as having “Always been TERRIBLE!!!!!!” due to my general hatred of the caricaturism its styles of childrens storytelling and fantasy tends towards utilizing + my overall political (and economic) philosophical biases against it as both brand and mechanism for moral narrative. also that most of the comments i’ve read so far including my own are literally still pondering the question of if harry potter was ever good, in contrast to the premise stated by the upcoming title, is very funny to me. i don’t believe this is a “we shouldn’t doubt harry potters quality-as-media-product-divorced-from-authorial-politics” video but probably a “it doesn’t (shouldn’t?) matter whether harry potter WAS ‘good’ or not” video. which i kinda disagree with tbh unless its intended in a COMPLETELY divorced-from-if-the-themes-are-good-is-the-story-well-written sense (like, being a ‘good writer’ is not a signifier of personal morality, while there are moral failings that CAN make someones writing worse it is never reliably 1:1 and to act like it is is to ascribe to the same moral chauvanist ingroup-hypocrisy that makes HP so infuriating) but its foolhardy of me to argue with a video that isn’t OUT YET. to engage more directly (and please i mean no insult or disrespect in my. contrary-to-the-spirit-of-your-wondering answer) i’d reckon that JK Rowling made such a cultural juggernaut, well, one by being situationally quite fortunate wrt when and how HP did get successful (movie deals that resulted in at-least-decent adaptations, fan culture going through a period of metamorphosis due to the internet, generally decent licensed merch in general, shifts in book store culture maybe???), and that while i struggle with praising them even on technical grounds i still have to admit the books aren’t the WORST things ever written, but. I do not see at all how JK Rowlings’ character flaws made her primary series’s success at all improbable. Maybe since then sure her failures after the main HP series cound be indicative of SOMETHING but when it comes to fresh-faced childrens’ media theres tons of examples of their creators being rotten in a way that made their properties MORE successful. HP, i’d argue, is one such example of a media project whose creators’ negative ethos made it MORE successful for its primary and secondary target demographics of kids and adults interested in kids stuff. The lows she’s sunk to were what -in absolutely lower doses- made her this successful in the first place. (also like again i’m not trying to be mean or anything, the brand success of harry potter IS something that i would also love to see studied in proper capacity, i just do not think how JKR ended up is anything but an extension of how she got here in the first place. that particular aspect does not give me pause.)

[@EmpressOfCatsup]

Something has not stood the test of time when the author and the original audience are still living.

[@defrostedrobot77]

@@EmpressOfCatsupI’d say if it’s been over a quarter century since the first instalment came out and it’s still being discussed I’d say it can qualify for the time standing test discussion.

[@lizvtaz6]

I think it is very important to stop talking about this fandom. No, Harry Potter did not "stand the test of time". Because the test of time is not over yet. Harry Potter is getting that much attention because many people born in the 80s and in the 90s actively promote it. Harry Potter ended up being one of those "childhood fandoms" from "the good 90s where things were not as bad as they are now". Also, Harry Potter movies are well made. And they are relatively new. And the media and the bookstores keep talking about them endlessly because the entire generation is unhappy with their life now and is obsessed with nostalgia. Harry Potter is not loved because it is really good. It's not bad either but the character development in those books is just non existent and almost no societal issues are addressed in those books. Not in a good way anyway. I think everyone gets it. The series is loved and promoted because it represents nostalgia. I think we should stop talking about it. Us talking about it all the time only inspires conservative people to promote it more. Rowling is set for life boycotting her by not buying her stuff does not work. It's a better idea to ignore it. We talk about it too much.

[@defrostedrobot77]

@@lizvtaz6 The last of the main Harry Potter films came out over 13 years ago now. They aren't exactly that new. Fantastic Beasts films are more recent but those aren't really talked about nearly as much. Also, if we're saying Potter hasn't stood the test of time cause all the people nostalgic for it are still alive than you can't really include anything before 1970. Also, this suggests that older things don't get carried on in popularity because older generations are suggesting them to newer ones or that the youth these days aren't discovering Potter on their own. Nostalgia isn't gonna be the sole deciding factor in something like this.

[@TonksMoriarty]

Think one of the initial video essays on Harry Potter post Rowling showing her true colours said it best, recognise the things you brought to the work, take it whatever it is and divorce from the series as anything other than an origin. Go on and make something better. Take the life lessons you learnt from it and be better. I speak as someone who got their name from this series, but ultimately I'm coming up on 13 years of thinking of myself as Tonks. It's no longer the name of a character I liked, it's my name. So little of what we got from Harry Potter was ever in the books.

[@djadelaney]

Tonks the character was ruined in the last two books, everything I really loved about Tonks came from fanfic

[@Urmumlel7025]

Kids aren't attracted by good writing. But, they are attracted to epic and relatable writing. JK Rowling is like a Micheal Bay crossed with a Tyler Perry of writing. You stay for the wands and house sorting and broomsticks and being liberated from a bad living situation. You forget about the bigotry, eugenics, and overall mean spirit.

[@Keltaryn]

That's a really great way to look at it!

[@Dave102693]

You couldn’t of described it any better. 😂

[@RilianSharp]

if people want to keep reading it, it's good by definition.

[@Tillyard86]

I've always loved the book for the stories and characters, nothing more.

[@infinitemonkeytheorem4327]

​@RilianSharp unfortunately that's not how that works. Often times people will keep wanting to read or watch something because they relate it to on some fundamental level but that does not inherently make it good. You can also enjoy something because it's terrible for instance the room people love that movie and watch it over and over again but it's not a good movie. There are some stories that are good but you only want to watch once for whatever reason. Saying that a story is good because people keep consuming it does not make it good.

[@imogenwren]

I tend to read really quickly and, apparently without focusing too much on specifics, so the poor quality of the writing was lost on me. Its only when I listened to the audiobooks later, and suddenly there was Stephen Fry, someone I considered to be very eloquant was tripping over the awkwardness of the sentences. Thats when I was like "oh this is what people mean when they say its badly written"

[@jaimerose1313]

I read quickly too so definitely missed the writing quality (should have listened to the audio books), but I did pick up on the story quality change. I was in denial in book 5, made excuses for book 6, and the day book 7 came out I sped through I got so angry about how disappointing it was.

[@imogenwren]

@@jaimerose1313 Book 5 was actually my favourite, by 6 I felt like it was kinda loosing the plot a little, and after the 7th I literally shut the book and said "all of that and you made him Jesus ffs"

[@adorabell4253]

This is almost exactly my experience tough I did love book 4. The plot was just fun. I found 5 to be very annoying. 6 was ok. By 7 I was reading it to be done with it. I just wasn’t interested. Maybe that’s why it was so easy to just dump it when everything came out? By book 5 I had found Tamora Pierce and HP just doesn’t hold up either in terms of plot or writing.

[@allenkwan8310]

There's a story Fry tells about how he asked her if he could change a line in the audiobook version because I couldn't read it and she decided to include the line in every subsequent book to troll him.

[@musenightingale]

I didn't really like book 7 and I was in denial about that for years. And like, it doesn't really matter, but it felt good to finally admit that.

[@knitandcatboodle]

For me, Harry Potter was the book series that actually got me into reading. And that was a really hard thing to work through with all of her rampant transphobia. One thing that helped me is applying something I learned in therapy; that two things can be true at the same time. Harry Potter launched my love of reading AND Rowling is actively harming the trans community. They don’t inherently cancel each other out. But I can take that recognition and appreciate it for what it was while moving forward to being a better ally. Sitting in the discomfort really sucks, but it’s what helps you grow. Thanks for using some of your spoons!

[@thebitterfig9903]

A little bit off topic: I watched a Worst Witch adaptation a while back. My first impression was that I literally thought it was a newer thing that was just a HP ripoff, except that it's a girls school. Someone from outside the magic world stumbles into a witches academy, has a kind but bumbling best friend, a headmaster who seems doddering but is whip sharp with a taste for lemon drops and non-witchy sweets, a stern teacher who mostly has it out for the protagonist and everyone thinks is about to betray the headmaster to the badguys but is loyal to the core. Toss in the stuck-up bully, the broom flying classes, the potions classes, hijinks that felt entirely of a piece. Nearly everything felt 1:1, not some "well, HP and LotR have similar elements" reach. It felt one-to-one. Are some of these things common? Yeah. Was my immediate reaction was to think that this show was just a cheap HP knockoff? 100%. Then I look it up, and the Worst Witch is from books first written in the 70s, decades before HP. I find that amusing. It's funny to me. Particularly because Worst Witch is all about girls and women, and HP is mostly about boys. As if... their genders were all changed. I'm not calling anyone a crook. I'm just saying I find it hilarious.

[@casualcraftman1599]

Funny thing is a similar thing happen with the Netflix show Hilda also staring Bella Ramsey. People accused Hilda of ripping off Gravity Falls when it was a book adaptation of children books series a decade older than Gravity Falls. Hilda being compared to Gravity Falls was just Gravity Falls fans being pretentious EvErYtHiNg RiPpEd OfF tOlKiEn while I would have actually assumed The Worst Witch plagiarized Harry Potter if I didn't know about the original book series. The Worst Witch did a much better job at clarifying that the magic world is secretly separated and non magic users don't see it. Making Mildred Hubble heritage a mystery box of she is the only magic user born from a non magic family avoids every plot hole Harry Potter full blood and half blood system creates. A secret magic world is going to publicly get exposed to the normal world if multiple magic users are randomly born into non magic families.

[@TheDawnofVanlife]

the worst witch also had a TV show in 1998, the Netflix adaptation was actually the second time the books had been adapted for TV.

[@thecrispymaster]

I loved the Worst Witch 90s show. I never read the books so I don't know it it was in there but the show had a running gag that if you ever talked smack about Ms Hardbroom she'd appear there behind you as if by magic. It worked though because there wasn't any special effects so it's ambiguous about if it actually was magic, and I feel like that's happened to many of us as pupils at least once 😂

[@wyrdness1]

@@thecrispymaster third, there was a TV movie adapting the 1st book as a Halloween special in 1986 with Tim Curry

[@TheDumdei]

There is an argument to be made that an extremely large percentage of the stories we tell and enjoy are just fanfiction. And I'm talking going back millennia. Shakespeare? Fanfic of existing stories, plays, and history. Greek playwrights? Fanfic of mythology. Dante's Inferno? Catholic fanfic. Basically all of Doctor Who since the 2005 reboot? Made by people who were fans of the original run of the show when they were younger - all just fanfic. Just because it's made by professionals and extremely talented artists doesn't mean it isn't fanfic.

[@dandelion_16]

honestly I think part of it (at least initially) was also a counter-reaction to the way the fandom worshipped her. It's not an exaggeration to say that regarding some parts of the fandom. She was "the woman who made a generation read", "reading her books was a sign you were a good person". Those are statements I saw so many times over. When it turned out she was shitty instead, people might have dealed with that betrayal and self-doubt by demonizing her instead.

[@thecrispymaster]

And there were some people who made being a fan of Harry Potter like a part of their identity (and some people still do). When all this started happening there was almost a mini existential crisis happening where some of those people did a total 180 out of a need to remove that part of their identity from themselves, and others doubled down and became part of the more ravenous crew who won't hear anything bad said about JKR

[@Nemo12417]

I don't think ANY work of fiction could ever be worthy of the pedestal Harry Potter was put on.

[@poppie267]

LOL They claim that reading her books is a sing you are a good person and whenever someone in the HP fandom like a character they do not or have critism they get angry and insult people. Not my idea of how good people act 😂And face it the so called good guys in her books are even worse the the bad guys. Because hardly any of their flaws gets adressed.

[@poppie267]

@@thecrispymaster Oh God yes. And some of them are in their early 40s and never read anything else. And the ones who do see one similair trope as HP and claim that it is a rip off.

[@zainmudassir2964]

I had read a comment comparing Harry Potter with modern anime isekai. It's not about quality of writing (it's often terrible)but the power fantasy of going to another world and do exciting things. The main character is often unremarkable at the beginning so it's easy to project and feel like you're going on an adventure. It's appealing for people with tough mundane real lives,this is why isekai stories are hugely popular among Japanese men and even South Korean manhwa have same trends

[@numb3r5ev3n]

The thing that made her TERF turn so painful was that there were some really good things about her series, despite there being room for criticism. And I think for a lot of people, it's not even just the books. For a lot of people, Harry Potter was the friends we made along the way, going back decades. The communities across multiple platforms. This thing that we loved so much, this thing that united us, ended up betraying us and hurting us.

[@merebear143]

Honestly I still have trouble divorcing myself from the series because they were such a huge part of my life growing up. I used to reread the series on a yearly basis, and still remember an insane amount of the story. I still own Harry potter merch, furrowed in the back of my room. I have a copy of Lego Harry potter that I occasionally go back and play, because to me it only feels like a Lego game that brought me joy. I still read Harry potter fanfiction occasionally. But I cannot and will not funnel a single dollar more into her pockets. The last Harry Potter product I meaningfully engaged with was the second fantastic beasts movie.

[@jeremyadler9620]

Same here. I still read fanfiction. I still have the books, although they're in another room and I don't really look at them that much. Sometimes I go and play the Lego games, which were the last things I bought back in early-to-mid 2020. Haven't bought things since than and won't buy or watch anything new. I'm even unsure if the purported reboot will be happening at this point, given how many years its been since the announcement and we've seen NO actual casting or know who's behind the thing. On a side note, if you want to read a different book series, I HIGHLY recommend Derek Landy's Skulduggery Pleasant. It's a GREAT series and a fun urban fantasy. Landy has even gotten into Marvel comics, writing some stuff every now and than. It's pretty cool :)

[@PeteOtton]

I'm glad I saw the second beasts movie before I found out how horrible she was. It made it much easier to drop the whole series and her.

[@iwontdowhatyoutellme3466]

I think you've found a good compromise. You can enjoy the franchise without giving her a dime.

[@zorroazulapex]

Before anyone in this comment section reads Skulduggery Pleasant, while it is a great book series, it is nowhere near a lighthearted, charming adventure. Major characters will die and be tortured left and right, and the magical world is very grim and disturbing. The main characters are very likable and compelling, though!

[@jeremyadler9620]

@, Well said! Probably should have added that when I first mentioned it! Thanks for adding that disclaimer :)

[@UncleAndyArt]

There's something I've been saying for several years now in regards to both Harry Potter and My Hero Academia, where people have no idea how it got so popular when "it was never actually good" and honestly, that's technically exactly why they both got so popular. The reason why people fell in love with HP and MHA is because the stories are so plain that it's basically seamless to add your own self-insert into the world. I like to say that HP and MHA are like bread. Bread is good. You can eat bread on its own and it's fine. But, if you really want to elevate the bread you toast it, put toppings on it, dip it in a sauce, pair it with a meal, etc - and that's the fandom. I fully believe if all I did as a kid was read the books and that's it, I probably wouldn't have been nearly as distraught about the revelations we all experienced in 2020. But that's not all I did. I didn't just eat the bread, I made several different sandwiches from the same loaf. I explored Pottermore, I read fanfiction, I theorized with friends, I was an active user on the Leaky Cauldron, I went to the midnight premier of the Deathly Hallows book at my local book store, etc. Harry Potter on it's own wasn't much of a loss. At first my thought was "I will no longer read the books or watch the movies, but I'll still enjoy fan content" but that wasn't enjoyable anymore after a while. Sure, Harry Potter is just bread, but that is still the corner point of all the meals I made. So, without it, there was just nothing left for me to enjoy. And that's the real damage of losing Harry Potter.

[@ZukiTanuki]

Over the last few years I have found myself re-assessing the story, with the new understanding of who wrote it, and the critical thinking I applied made me realise a few things. That I was so very blinded by the awe and wonder of the bigger picture that the details of things like the slavery, racism, ableism and so on just somehow went under the radar. It was like when you hear a song from your childhood as an adult and realise how inappropriate the lyrics were for a child to be singing.

[@AshAshBaby]

I cannot tell you how much I appreciated this video and how needed it is in the never ending conversation about Harry Potter post-2020. It was good. It was good, and the author is not, and we need to sit with that as a society.

[@robbiesmith8055]

I feel similarly. One video in particular irritated me immensely - it was talking about the female characters and how they‘re generally crap/underwritten. And while I‘m not gonna go to bat for how Rowling wrote a lot of female characters, several points made in the video misattributed movie exclusive details to her, or simply misremembered details to make her sound worse. Joanne bashing is certainly fun, but there‘s already plenty of bad things in Harry Potter without us needing to make up some Just to make it seem worse than it was.

[@hellogoditsmesara3569]

I also think that “x was always bad anyway” thinking is harmful bc you’re trying to separate “good” and talent and worth to people who deserve and don’t deserve as of bad people are incapable of making “good” like they didn’t get there in the first place from having some sort of merit Great art can come from terrible people and what do we benefit from as a society to act like it doesn’t I also think it continues to prime us to petestalize people who like an admire bc we want to believe that if your good and talented you’re not also equally capable of being awful

[@Snakie747]

"Separate the art from the artist" being invoked in this context is a misusing of an academic argument. It was originally about how we evaluate the themes and overall interpretation of a work from a literary point of view, and how we can justifiably do that while removing the artist/author and their own beliefs from that equation. It's about what you can take from a work, not what you're justified in putting INTO a work. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not it's ethical to provide economic and social support to those works. "Separating art from the artist" doesn't shield you from the moral issues that come from giving her and her projects money or eyeballs- that's never what it was for.

[@francesconicoletti2547]

Thank you. The way the term is being used in pop media discussion is annoying both because it is used technically incorrectly , which might be fine usages change, and every one is behaving as if there is some other agreed usage which there is not. Does it mean to its pop media proponents, ignore the author ? Read into the text what is not there ? That would seem to lead to a shallow understanding of the work. In general finding out more about an author , even when those things are bad leads me to a deeper understanding of a work. Sometimes I like it less, but deeper nonetheless. Does it mean stopping the economic relationship with the author ? That seems orthogonal to the art , that is economics.

[@GENERIC_CHANNEL_HANDLE]

One of the deeply, darkly ironic reasons it has been so difficult for me to give up my ties to the Potterverse is in how it helped me discover my identity as a genderfluid person. Realizing why I had such a profound hunger for polyjuice helped guide me to the understanding that I am not CIS. JK helped me realize that I'm not CIS... and she has a visceral disgust for my existence that is difficult for me to grasp. It's a hell of a thing when the person who wrote the words that helped define you later reveals that she hates you on principle.

[@GorensteinMedia]

There's a reason bookstores are still promoting the fuck out of this series. Because it sells well. I know there are "better" books out there that don't hurt trans people but I am suspicious of everyone who tries to promote Percy Jackson/Animorphs/His Dark Materials as some kind of cruelty-free alternative to HP. And I say that as someone who LIKES His Dark Materials. Because at the end of the day, none of those things are Harry Potter. And yes, when I'm forced to choose between supporting trans people and supporting Harry Potter, it's an easy decision, every time.

[@djadelaney]

Yeah HDM is not even vaguely a replacement for HP, I think it's better of course but it's soooooo different. Harry Potter isn't nearly as challenging

[@marocat4749]

Animorphs are definitly a good alternative, in valuable to read, but its still dark. Like really doesnt shy away from dark issues, if in a way i think is good. So the cruelty free selling is, maybe not great fun is how irt does deal with nmarure issues well. His dark material is different too. I get percy jackson thou, its similar enough i guess? In its fun YA that gets better on its issues.

[@thing_under_the_stairs]

I'm just SO glad that my nieces got into Percy Jackson (and everything else by Rick Riordan) in a big way. The books are better written, and transphobia free!

[@GorensteinMedia]

"Suspicious of everyone who tries to promote [X]" also applies to the folx posting below me in the comments. :)

[@bookswithike3256]

... Suspicious in what way? What does that mean?

[@aviendha1154]

Alyship IS hard. But it’s worth doing. We need our allies to stand strong with us, and to be prepared to give up things for us.

[@Yakmage]

i have exactly one harry potter product still in my collection on my bookshelf. it is a collector's edition book 1 that my elementary school librarian bought for me as a graduation gift with a very personal note in it. she was my favorite teacher in the school and has since passed on and it is the only harry potter item where the personal love involved gets me to keep it

[@akaneh1989]

Interesting points, thank you! I agree with you, the only thing I could add about the topic is that to me, it felt less "sour grapes"/"Never good to begin with anyway" and more "Yeah she didn't just have a moment, it isn't just a random thing, it's deepseated and it is even reflected in the book, you can't separate it from her in that way. And it isn't her only bad take/opinion in the books either, she has several." kind of explanation, as in "this didn't come out of nothing, this didn't come out of a vacuum".

[@naomikenzia-davis4148]

Thank you for this. I hear so much criticism online that makes it sound like anything needs to be perfect in order to be valuable or 'good'. And you are right, it doesn't matter if HP is good. Its creator is doing active harm. I'm kinda tired of authors being bad people, though. Not that they all are, but enough prominent ones have turned out to be that it's discouraging.

[@maurinet2291]

11:01: The problem you noticed isn't the writing per se, it's the editing. The first three HP books were tight, nothing was there that didn't need to be there; nothing in that story was wasted. And yeah, they stopped editing her. I'll actually take it a bit farther: this actually happens to all high level authors. It's why the breakout book is often the best. Because unless that author seeks out criticism and actively tries to grow as a writer, they are going to get nothing but praise. I can list author after author whose later work suffered or became a hot mess due to lack of editing. Editors are notoriously overworked and underpaid anyway and no one wants to risk pissing off the golden goose when there's no need. If you've built up enough of a fanbase, readers are going to buy it anyway and publishers know that.

[@RavenOfCen]

The 4th book is also notoriously bad terms of editing. Rowling herself has stated that she thinks it's the worst one to the point that she's kind of embarrassed about it. So like... if the last HP book you read was the 4th one, it's not exactly the most fair point of comparison for books 5-7. Although I will agree that the editing is still more lax in the later books, just not as egregious.

[@vdvklaas]

Something I think I actually have never said to anyone: I have this thing, maybe it's part of my autism and the way my brain can't always handle moving forward in thoughts (like in a literal sense, like I need to 100% understand what I'm saying is what I mean to say in oder to move on to the next sentence). And, cos HP was such big part of my life, I even listened to the audiobooks for a good 15 years every night in order to fall asleep, cos they used to be so familiar and comfy; my brain is so build upon HP being there in it's core, that when I get in those mind "errors", and something breaks, cos I can't process the sentences, my brain goes "Harry Potter", like it literally tells me these words. They put a needed halt to the trying of processing sentences and made me go back to a peaceful place to start over my thoughts. Sometimes these words are repeated ten or more times. I don't ever choose these words to pop up, they just do, chosen by my unconsciousness, they're just there, to comfort me. Needless to say, these words do not provoke a happy feeling no more, but my brain still does the thing, only to now divert me into something that feels like heart-brake. They now provoke anger, sadness, and thoughts of all the harm JK has caused.

[@Splattedable]

That sucks. I do the same thing with characters from my favourite books but luckily Harry Potter fell out of use before it became a problem.

[@plows2940]

The knee-jerk response from many people saying, “Oh, it was never good anyway,” feels like sour grapes to me. It seems easier to distance yourself from something because of the author’s actions if you convince yourself it had no value to begin with. Ultimately, though, the question of whether Harry Potter was ever “good” is irrelevant to the fact that J.K. Rowling continues to profit from the franchise and uses it to campaign against trans rights. People have become more aware of and critical of Harry Potter’s flaws since Rowling revealed her bigotry, which makes me wonder how many former fans would even be questioning its quality if she hadn’t embraced transphobia?

[@soullesscadmium30]

Actually fans had already been criticising harry potter for quite a long time before jkr started making transphobic statements. I read the books 10 years ago and have seen criticism about several different aspects about the writing pretty much since then. Some of the posts even then were a lot older. However everyone agreed that she had created an amazing world and characters with a lot of potential but ended up handling a lot of things very poorly. Harry Potter was loved by fandom not because of what it was, but what it had the potential to be. What jkr's bigotry did was push these criticisms to the mainstream and tainted basically anything good about the series. I still have a love for the world of harry potter and the characters, but I don't think I can ever read the books again or consume any media jkr makes. Thinking about it doesn't bring me joy anymore, only a sinking feeling.

[@citrinedragonfly]

Thank you for the video, Vera. Dealing with this as a former-ish fan of Harry Potter and a trans ally has been difficult, yes. When this was first all over the news in 2020, my trans kids (I teach high school) were trying to do the "separate art from artist", because Potter was, for many of them, a safe space they'd grown up with. We actually talked as a group about why we couldn't just pretend someone else wrote the books. We talked about how to square the circle, if it was possible, of liking something by someone who actively hated you and wished you harm. Each of them came to a slightly different conclusion over the year, and it was really difficult for them, and made worse by the fact that the conversations couldn't happen face-to-face because of lockdown restrictions. The only time we were all in one place together was just after the news broke, because most of us were marching in a student-led protest over George Floyd's murder, and the social-distancing rules hadn't truly gone into effect. For me, personally, I got to the point where I got rid of my set of books and DVDs, donated my Slytherin robes to Goodwill in a clothing donation, and started getting rid of other things piece by piece. I haven't bought official merch since 2020, and will not buy anything official merch-wise firsthand for gifts, presents, etc., for people who do want it. I've bought things for my sister and sister-in-law from local crafters or from etsy, because Rowling doesn't get the money (I know, it still adds to her relevance, but I'm falling on the side of "support small businesses and fanmade items" when I absolutely "have" to purchase something Potter-related). If I ever decide I want to own the books/DVDs again, I'll get them from the used bookstore, where again, Rowling doesn't make money from the purchase. I do still like the story, and in a world where Rowling wasn't an actively harmful person, I would buy all the adorable Pullip-style dolls, because they are gorgeous and I collect dolls. But I don't buy them, and I won't buy them, because I refuse to give that woman my money. I hope, probably in vain, that Rowling's own kid(s?) will one day speak out against her stance, and when they inevitably inherit her estate and IPs, they will use them for good.

[@austin.luther]

One of my newer colleqgues a few months ago mentioned the HBO show and was asking us in the lab if she should renew her HBO subscription to watch it. Everyone went wide-eyed and looked over to me, the only transgender person in the entire lab. I sighed and said, "It's fine, I don't think she knows." After a quick rundown, my colleague was going on about how it's like Kanye all over again and why does everyone keep going crazy and depriving us of a good time? She's fantastic. A great ally, didn't doubt me for a second and immediately decided not to pay money for something she sincerely wanted to see.

[@StonedHunter]

I think instead of saying "this was never good" we should say "this was always problematic" as I've noticed every time I look deeper into series made by these kinds of people that their mindsets and ideologies end up being present that I had looked over because of how young I had been at the time or how wrapped up I was in a story that reached me. I don't wanna say it as "it's the fans fault they should have known better" but more to highlight how willing we can be to overlook something we shouldn't in favor of a story that resonates with us at the time. Also taking into account how many of us were kids who hadn't developed deeper media literacy (although I do also wanna point out POC have been calling JKR out for a while and it is important to remember how many of us blatantly ignored them when they did if not actively shout them down).

[@TalonSky]

12:00 I think, and don't quote me on this because it's been more than a decade since I read about it, that Rowling had to rewrite basically the entire second half of GoF. Apparently she wore herself into /such/ a bad plothole that the entire premise of the series (not just that book) fell apart. I remember reading that her editors essentially told her that it was unpublishable. I'm not sure how much those editors continued to have influence after that, but I suspect you're correct in that it wasn't much. Rowling writing out all the Time Turners in OotP was...sloppy and a direct response to criticism, as was everything involving SPEW. I do know that there were a team of 'Potterologists' employed on staff to make sure the universe stayed consistent with itself, because Rowling would routinely forget how her own damn magic system worked, but those aren't the same thing as professional editors. That, and Crimes of Grindelwald was a mess explicitly because no one wanted to check Rowling's creative influence. Essentially it was the George Lucas effect.

[@Rmlohner]

She admitted pretty early on, when she was still willing to say she wasn't perfect, that the whole thing with the moving staircases was because she knew there was no way in hell she'd ever be able to stick to a concrete layout of Hogwarts.

[@DawnDavidson]

@@Rmlohnerthat’s actually a pretty brilliant way to work around a bad memory. JKR is still a bad person though.

[@Dormant_Chrysalis]

I agree with most of what you say, but I don't think reexamining the books is without merit completely. I grew up with the Harry Potter books and they had meant a lot to me, especially during my childhood and teen years. When JK Rowling turned out to be explicitly transphobic, I stopped wearing my merch in public, because I didn't want to, at best, be seen as someone who didn't care or, at worst, someone who supports Rowling's ideas. A while later, I couldn't even look at it at home/in private anymore. I got rid of it all. I knew I couldn't 'support' Harry Potter in the same way I had anymore, but it went past that. The whole subject matter turned weirdly tainted for me. It was painful and I felt guilty for longing for my comfort story. So for me, seeking out "why Harry Potter is problematic actually" content was an attempt at finding closure and helping myself get some more distance from the subject matter. It helped. I won't go around telling people that the book was always bad and that there's nothing powerful about it. Rowling managed to press quite a few buttons for many people, myself included. But looking at the ugly side of it helped me lose my attachment. Or at least most of it.

[@larissabrglum3856]

Same

[@lindsaymitchell6760]

Like I hate saying that I was already falling out of love with Harry Potter before the transfobia happened because I sound like such a hipster. If anything, criticism videos helped me put into words what I was feeling.

[@AnnaEmilka]

Same here! I ditched it after shit hit the fan, and now I'm free to examine the books from a different perspective, and these videos help me become a better reader. I know the books very well, and since I read them as a kid, lots of problematic things went over my head. Reexamining the series and taking it apart, exposing the problematic stuff or even just plotholes, helps me notice these things in other pieces of media I consume. Especially as I tend to be a gullible reader and not apply my critical thinking brain once I'm enjoying something.

[@torbs37]

100%! I also find that critique for me feels like a way I can still enjoy the cozy familiarity of a previously beloved series in a more ethical way that will make me a more critical reader going forward. I love engaging with literary critique and series I know well with creators who turn out to suck become excellent fodder for sharpening those skills.

[@dante6985]

The Harry Potter series was solid children's fantasy that made school magical fun. I'd put it a notch below Roald Dahl but two notches above Goosebumps. Somewhere in a "Chronicles of Prydain" in terms of entertaining kids reads. WAY overrated and over-celebrated in culture, 0 interest in an HBO series even if Rowling wasn't a raging transphobe (do we need to see Peeves and SPEW?). But the "it's always been dogshit" crowd is kidding themselves too, Rowling isn't a Stephanie Meyer in terms of talent.

[@thecrispymaster]

How dare you, Goosebumps was high art. I mean, I've not read it since I was about 9 but I'm sure it still holds up 😂

[@WallebyDamned]

I noticed a change in writing quality as a teen but didn't stop when I struggled to finish the final books, instead I consumed MASSIVE amounts of fanfiction that would retcon the later books that didn't matter as much to me

[@bretthansen3739]

I was really confused at first by the premise of the video, but it makes much more sense now that I finished watching it. As a disclaimer, I take things very literally (I'm almost certainly autistic, but undiagnosed). "Was Harry Potter ever good?" is definately the wrong question to ask if you're trying to figure out if you should give Rowling your money, but it's exactly the right question to ask if you're trying to figure out whether Harry Potter was good. I could go on for a while, but her particularly amateurish writing and very shallow liberalism were helpful when I was trying to learn more about writing and media criticism. The answer to whether it was "good" didn't factor in to whether I continued to read them, or even whether I liked reading them (I did like them, but gave them up. Not buying Hogwarts Legacy was an actual sacrifice). I believe Gaiman's writing is "good", but I don't like it so I didn't read it (therefore giving it up will be easy). I'm not going to pretend he's a bad author becuase he's a bad person, those are two different questions. I'm a big fan of Star Wars (special interest?), and I freely admit that some of that writing is not great.

[@PeteOtton]

I think your view point here is spot on.

[@emcustard]

Rowling wrote a series about how love triumphs all. She didn't believe it. She told the people she hates that we matter, that we're powerful and good and worthy of love.

[@poppie267]

Huh i always knew she dindt believe in love. She created the Slytherins out of petty hatred. It is one thing to create a character we are supossed to hate but it is a other thing to created characters out of petty spite out of revenge on her bullies(And this is comming from someone who was tortured in school almost dayly) And gets angry when people are intressted in said characters. And now she tells the people who hate you that you do not matter, That you are not powerful and good and wothy of love. She is such a nasty person.

[@cfsfilms5091]

Ironically the discussion about abusive people and the quality of their art is fascinating because a lot of people kind of treat it the way JKR writes morality. Where it's more about the "team" a person is on than actually looking at the face of it. You get a lot of "this person can't actually be guilty because they made something I liked" as well as "well this was made by a bad person so it can't be good". Good and bad are absolute qualities that must align, a good thing you like can't have come from a bad person so those allegations must have been fake, or it wasn't ever a good thing you liked for valid reasons, or maybe that bad person wasn't a big part of the creative process anyway and you can ignore them entirely. I'm sure you've heard and said enough about Neil Gaiman but I had a moment of reflection where on reflex I went "well maybe those allegations aren't true". And I stopped myself and had to realize that all of them being untrue was extremely unlikely. I wasn't saying that because it's an assumption that makes sense. I was saying it because I didn't want it to be true. And I didn't want it to be true because he's one of my favorite authors. And honestly speaking, looking just at the body of work, he still is. And he's a monster. I don't do myself any favors trying to look away from that.

[@bosyber]

Well put, thanks.

[@marcianemoris]

I'm a fifty-year-old trans woman. I was only introduced to the Harry Potter books (btw my phone keyboard auto-suggested 'Potter' as the word I'd want after 'Harry') in my late thirties. I thought they were great. Point being this isn't a "we were young" thing. As a kid I'd been given school-days books to read - Just William, the Jennings and Darbyshire series, Molesworth - and HP hit a lot of nostalgic notes as well as being fun and (as i judged it at the time) pretty imaginative. And I i liked the message of acceptance and friendship. That's why it hurt even me, a relative newcomer to the story world and the franchise around it, when she revealed her hateful nature and showed that I'd either seriously misread the message in those books, or that it was written very specifically to exclude people like me. Which to me undermined the whole thing anyway. I will certainly acknowledge that since she embraced hatred I've seen the criticisms of the books - the antisemitic imagery, the pro-slavery portrayal of the Elves (sorry, I mean the "House" Elves) - and i can accept that I was too caught up in the story and the world to register those things at the time. But i have to ask myself: if what's-her-wealth hadn't turned, or at least exposed her views, would I ever have seen the videos pointing these things out, or noticed them myself? And I have to admit, I likely wouldn't. Because outwith these issues, the books were good. Or at least, good enough.

[@abigaillancaster382]

One of the things I don’t see enough people talking about is grieving the almost universal community that came with Harry Potter. You could mention your house, or various characters or stories, and just about anyone who was a kid or raised a kid since the books came out would understand them. I used to use Harry Potter characters all the time to discuss what it was like to be raised in fundamentalist religion because people suddenly understood it better if I used Draco or Snape as examples. We have lost that cultural connection and I don’t think it will ever be replaced- it was a perfect storm of a lack of technology, marketing, and a compelling story that I don’t think we will ever see again. I have read a lot of books since that I adore and are absolutely better in every way, but they’re not universally loved and known. I can’t quote them and expect nearly everyone to get it. We don’t talk about that enough.

[@emb3863]

I'm still occasionally sad about having to give up hp, like it was always problematic and had some horribly ignorant stereotypes and stuff. But also, so many of my memories with friends and particularly with my mom are tied to it, and sometimes I do miss engaging in the fandom or enjoying the fanart and stuff, but I'm not touching this property ever again

[@larissabrglum3856]

It did take me several years to fully detach myself from the fandom, it's hard when something was formative to your childhood like that

[@mdstevens0612]

It's pretty much this. Harry Potter got ruined for me, not because strangers on the internet say it's bad actually, but because... Like, Rowling was being shitty. Turns out she was a regular garden variety terf straight from terf island and that kinda ruins your relationship with a thing. I ended up watching The Magicians during all of this and when Quentin finds out his favourite childhood book that's been duct-taping his severely compromised mental health was made by an awful person? Never felt so seen. But you move past it. Takes time, but you do. I've got Eragon and Little Witch Academia and Mashle and The Witcher and Skulduggery Pleasant. And when I decide to have better taste, Ursula Le Guin is waiting for me. So, you know. We move past it. Still kinda sucks that Rowling sucks. Don't know if it will ever stop sucking.

[@librabeauty23]

I was never an HP fan and never had any skin in the game on that level, I’m also probably a minority there too, but I watched those essays from a place of curiosity since I was surrounded by people that were HP fans and seeing them move along. My takeaway from those videos was more “JKR didn’t deserve the praise and power for her mediocre work” She doesn’t of course. She doesn’t deserve more money than the royals or have a generation in a chokehold like she does. But she does. And that matters, and supporting the trans community harder than ever matters. It matters more than any franchise. I always saw the HP criticism as “I dislike HP and I hate transphobia” but it’s clear to me now that we should just drop those first four words, since it’s irrelevant

[@Jammythewerewolf]

I have a great deal of empathy for former fans, HP was always something Kid Me liked, but I was never a _fan._ Adult me can look back now and think "I enjoyed it at the time, but I think really it wasn't very good." I can't lie or pretend, that is what I genuinely believe. The books were bad, and above all, uncreative. That's why a flat assertion the books were good doesn't sit right with me. BUT there's a huge addendum. What the fans created was good. They read something they liked, found common ground, and shared it with friends, talked, created and brought that world to life. It was fun, it was something people could share, and there were so many ways to connect yourself to this world. (house, patronus, etc.) There are plenty of 'bad' (quality wise, rather than politically) things that I like, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that. That's the great thing about fandom IMO, you can take something mediocre and it becomes something more. I have no idea if this makes sense, but I hope it does.

[@emmacappa]

She always had such a simplistic view about gender and sexuality. I remember when I was reading them at the time, I was very uncomfortable with the way everyone had to couple up (cishet ofc) and at such young ages. It was deeply anachronistic even at the time. I gave it a pass because, yk, children's book and possibly she didn't want to get into the complexities so she could concentrate on her core themes. But I feel in retrospect, this was a red flag and this was a mistake on my point to ignore my gut and I'll try to do better next time.

[@Sina-aka-potatosupreme]

I have a few diehard Harry Potter fans in my family. My brother and my SIL. And my little nephew is now a fan too. They would care if they knew what Joanne was doing, but I struggle enough with my mental health and (with 46) my gender identity to educate them about it. The thing is, they are not on social media at all. No Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, TikTok… they have NO IDEA that there even is a controversy. They have only a basic understanding that trans people face this much discrimination because in that small town, they don’t know anyone inside the LGBTQ community with the exception of me. German media isn’t spreading hateful propaganda against trans people though. It is not at all like US media. When talking about LGBTQ issues, they shrug and say that people should be left alone and live their lives the way they want. They are supportive in that way, but they are ignorant to all other problems. And like I said, I am all out of spoons and it is too much for me to educate them.

[@cathyn7640]

HP was never my thing. Not giving JKR my money is easy. if I go to Universal, I won't go to HP world. Easy. But I get the heartbreak of a beloved artist being revealed as a terrible person. There are so many artists I used to enjoy that I have had to cut off, music I can't listen to anymore, movies I can't watch, and after I found out that James Stewart was a racist, I can't watch It's a Wonderful Life anymore, which breaks my heart. The ongoing struggle to be an ethical human in the world is pervasive. I avoid certain stores because of who they support politically. I don't buy chocolate anymore because of the child slavery rampant in that industry. I wish I could have these things back, and not being able to enjoy them costs me something. I feel for the sacrifice of those who are giving up HP. It does matter.

[@KevinMooretoons]

One thing about the Potter works I realized a little while ago is the impact they have had on the language my friends, family, and I use. For example, my chronically ill friends refer to getting a cold as "Muggle sick" as opposed the advanced level of sick that they experience daily. (Covid has complicated that conversation, as you can imagine.) In my house we have a "room of requirement" where we dump things we don't know what to do with or just need to get out of the way. Those are just a few. It's a lot like how Star Trek, Star Wars and The Simpsons have become part of our common lexicon. While those franchises have had their problematic moments, the Potter stuff, because it is as you point out so tied to its creator, really gives me pause when I use those phrases now. I haven't stopped, I don't think it monetarily rewards her -- although I guess it still gives her some cultural capital, so maybe I should? I might. I stopped using other words when I learned about their roots in other people's oppression. Why not these expressions, too, even if they don't have a direct link like those words I stopped using? I'm thinking aloud, so I don't have a good answer. Culture can be such a minefield.

[@rachelrainbowphoenix]

Amazing video, Vera. I have been kicking around in back of the council hall for several years now (near the end of the newsie cap era, I think 😉). I am glad the algo sent me an invite to this meeting in particular. Your videos and community posts (and those of others of similar character) during that time played a significant role in my exit from the fandom. I am in the process of downsizing for a move and had come across a piece of merch that my spouse gave me (in the before times) to commemorate my return to an on camera hobby under a new handle (after being away from the hobby for several years.) I still hadn't made a decision on what to do with it when I started watching. I have now. I won't share what I have chosen to do with the piece, that's irrelevant. I did want you to know that your video helped bring some much needed clarity to a torrent of anxious rumination. Until next time 🩷🤍🩵

[@HeyJay2000]

Can't wait to watch the video. But to give me thoughts before the video comes out, i agree. It's kinda annoying seeing people turn on her work in the sense of saying "It's Shit now" like no. J.K. Rowling is a piece of Shit, but if you liked her work then that's fine. She may talk utter bollocks while online, but when she put that pen to paper back in the day she was great. Like she's truly a great storyteller. And i think that's what hurts a lot about the whole thing, same with Gaiman. You fall in love with the work and you don't know how to get over your love for that work cause it feels bad to like it. And I've seen people more recently saying that they used to be big fans of her work, but now in recent years they have come to realise the books were never good. And honestly it's sad to see people say that. Cause i don't know what there will be left to talk about if we just say everything made by problematic figures is bad. Honestly my advice is that it's okay to be hurt. It's much better to be hurt by something you loved, because that thing has changed in someway overtime than it is to carry on loving it and acting like those problems aren't there even tho you know there are. Because it means you're being homest about the situation and with yourself, and although it may still make everything a little complicated, it's much better to be honest about your feeling towards the matter, than it is to hide those feelings away. Cause that's not you being you, and it's always important to be You.

[@quinnsinclair7028]

I was in love with HP with near 20 years. I reread it recently. It's not as good as I remember. Her sexism, her racism, and even her transphobia is all in those books. A good number of major plot points are taken from better works. And there are so many plot holes.

[@DaraelDraconis]

Sure, we shouldn't claim everything made by bad people is bad. Many awful people have made amazing things. It is _also_ true that Rowling's work in particular actually _did_ always contain many of these problematic elements and indeed just bad writing. These things can coexist.

[@HeyJay2000]

@DaraelDraconis Yes, but that isn't what I'm specifically on about. I'm more talking about people doing a full 180 on the Harry Potter books, just because of their views on JK. Honestly it's sad perfectly in the video. That lying about your feelings towards those books and gaslightening yourself into thinking they are horrible pieces of literature, probably isn't a good thing.

[@ThePupYT]

14:57 this metaphor actually fits because even though you broke up with your ex there was a reason you were with them in the first place. Yes I loved HP as a kid growing up in the 90s and 2000s, but it wasnt perfect and even though I don't want anything to do with that franchise because of the author, there was a reason why I loved it as a kid. ❤❤❤

[@missybarbour6885]

I've always hated the accidental implication that only GOOD people can make good art and so BAD people can only make bad art. It's bizarrely puritanical and allows artists to shield themselves behind their "good" art like Gaiman did. We have to get comfortable with the idea that just because you think a book is good the author must be too because that makes it easier to dismiss the truth when it comes out. And just like you said, IT DOESN'T MATTER if the book is good. When the author's that bad, the book isn't worth supporting.

[@enchantedlight]

I have disengaged with the HP fandom so much, I haven't really seen videos on harry potter in years. On the rare chance they come up in my feed, I ignore them. Honestly the only reason I even clicked on this video was that it was you doing it, and given what I know of your stance on JKR / HP... if you felt it was important enough for you to make, then I should watch. Great video.

[@Gotham_n_glam]

I appreciate you bringing up the decline in the writing. Both myself and my brother nearly gave up reading the series at book 5. I was never the biggest HP fan, but I did like movies growing up. In the case of 4,5 and 7, I think the movies were done a lot better and cut out a lot of the pointless fluff. In the case of 6, I thought they cut nearly everything interesting from that book and focused too much on the teen romance side of things.

[@thJune-ze7dn]

The idea that they stopped editing her books around the time Goblet of Fire came out has been known for decades, people brought it up at the time. My mum actually met one of the editors around the time that Order of the Phoenix came out, and she confirmed that they didn't really bother with editing Ms. Rowling - why bother, when you're going to sell a tonne of books anyway? See also - A. S. Byatt's magnificent takedown in the New York Times in 2003. It reminds me of a line from Tibor Fischer's review of the Martin Amis (RIP) novel Yellow Dog - "The way publishing works is you go from not being published, no matter how good you are, to being published no matter how bad you are."

[@poppie267]

Yup. Plenty of Manga editors do the same thing.

[@girlwithtiger5233]

YES, thank you for pointing out the decline in quality of those books. It's been a while, and I don't have any of them on my shelves anymore, but I remember having trouble immersing and following what happened without outright forgetting, especially the last book, which is a clear sign of plot bloat, looking back. I'm glad it wasn't just me.

[@GrainneDhub-ll6vw]

Being only about 5 minutes younger than dirt, I am an old second wave feminist. I lived through watching the wave of feminism founder on a few significant issues, one of which was that of whether or not to accept trans women. My support of trans women meant that I lost half or more of my feminist friends and was cast out of my private feminist club (that had gone to the Supreme Court of the United States to win the right to be a woman only space). So I am very familiar with the pain of supporting a marginalised group and losing friends and support systems for that support. I read the Harry Potter books because they came out at the same time my niblings were old enough to want to read them and talk about them. Crazy aunties have to do their homework to keep their crazy auntie cred, you know. Aaaaaannnnd I saw problems with the series from the very first book. It's been so long since I read them but the racism, the ableism, the bigotry of so many types were all there. I discussed it all with my niblings, not in a lecturing way but in a questions way--"did you notice that everyone fat in this book is either a bad guy or incompetent or am I just imagining it? what do you think the author was saying about it?" By the third book, my niblings were pointing out examples of bigotry in the books to me and spotting examples that I hadn't seen (there were so many examples, my brain would fry). So I was surprised by the size of the fandom. And then by how long it took the fandom to notice that the author is actually rather a repellent human being. My question isn't "was Harry Potter ever any good?" because, to me, the answer was obvious from 1998. My question is "why weren't more people interrogating the text? was it because it wasn't their toes being stomped on? it was okay when she was"'just" racist or if she was "just" ableist or if she was "just"' antisemitic but all of a sudden it's not okay that she's transphobic?"

[@NF30]

Thank you for this comment. And thank you too for your support of trans people. As someone who never really noticed a lot of those problematic parts of the books, do you have any more examples? I'm not trying to villainize the books or "prove" that they were "never any good", because at least the world of Harry Potter is still special to me, if not many of the characters. I'm genuinely just curious to hear what else I may have overlooked.

[@GrainneDhub-ll6vw]

@@NF30 It has been so long since I read them. Books I enjoy, I re-read over and over (I've re-read Katharine Kerr's Deverry series every 2 to 3 years for the last 30 years, for example) but I was never tempted to crack open the HP books once my niblings lost interest. And I never watched any of the movies. I just remember being aghast after reading the first one and having several discussions with my sister and brother about whether they really wanted their children reading such stuff. The verdict was yes, because they were so pervasive that there was no avoiding exposure, so it would be better to expose the children at home with the crazy auntie (who dabbled in literary critique, unlike my two science minded siblings) to provide a model of critical reading. Seems to have worked, the niblings all did well in AP English and scored well on essays involving literary critique. No, crazy auntie never helped them cheat although she did teach them all the shortcuts to suck up and evaluate professional literary critique. Much the same way my father (their grandfather) taught them all sorts of math tricks so they could do math in their heads rather than have to do it the slow way with a calculator or paper and pencil.

[@GrainneDhub-ll6vw]

@ After thinking it over for awhile, I think I should add that I, too, probably would not have noticed anything about Harry Potter had I just been reading the books for my own pleasure. Looking back, I realise as the super protective crazy auntie, all my sensors were automatically on high alert for every book I previewed for my niblings and that is probably what predisposed me to seeing the underlying dog whistles. I mean, it's normal... semi-normal... maybe somewhere in the same ballpark as normal to be super-protective of one's niblings, right? Okay, I may be a tad over-protective if the scale is that the Secret Service is protective of the president, they have nothing on how I feel about my niblings. I was automatically suspicious of every book they might want to read (which is why my siblings volunteered me for the task of previewing all the books).

[@LilliBlackmore]

Great perspective shift. Thank you. ❤ It's worth repeating that allies aren't people sitting on the couch saying, "I think these people should be allowed to live." Allies are the people in the trenches with you. And sure, since we're not talking about literal trenches, we might have different ideas about what the fight consists of and where it can be fought. But just being okay with someone's existence isn't being an "ally."

[@NateDHWT2023]

I'm curious for this one because I do feel like the topic of dissecting Harry Potter needs to be put to bed. There's no more to be said and its ultimately irrelevent because good or not... it had cultural impact and gave its creator a lot of power.

[@Frogsmetamorphosis]

I found your channel thanks to this video and can I just say - I LOVE the way you talk, the energy you put into your words and how you use your voice! (I OBVIOUSLY fully agree with everything you're saying, that's important to mention as well, of course, especially in this time and age!)

[@ryusaki1558]

I'm honestly so glad that I found your channel. Living with Republican parents i Was kind of indoctrinated into that lifestyle. And I always believed that trans people were Sick or they were Just Pretending, And When I found your channel, I kind of scoffed, and then I started watching. Your attitude And your Presence kind of sucked me in and I just couldn't stop watching you. Cuz your personality is so Infectious. And you have made me Rethink all of my past ideologies And honestly I thank you for that because Of you I am changed And more happy. So I really do love your channel and you just bring me so much happiness. And I'm glad that someone like you could take me out of Who I was before, You made me kind of see my true self and come to terms with me being Also a trans feminine person. Hell I'm very grateful for you and your channel And what it it has brought me. I just wanted to say that and let you know that you really do help and you do change people and I think that this video is amazing and I think the the conversation is very important. I know it can sometimes feel Like you're Talking for no reason. The words you say don't mean anything just like talking to a brick wall but You help People like me every day, every time you post, every time you speak, you have such confidence and grace with your words. And I really do Appreciate the content you make, Especially now with all of the stuff that is going on. i have struggled coming out, my parents except me, but no one else does, i have marched and spoken out for trans people because you made me realize that i was an asshlole lol, so honestly thank you, cause yea its not easy at all, but you make it worth it. but yeah. thank you

[@Logitah]

When sexual assault allegations against Danny Elfman came to light, I kept seeing comments like "He was never a good composer" or weirder "He is ugly anyway". This annoyed the hell out of me, because sometimes bad people make good art and look good/average! Bad things don't just scream that they are bad! Sometimes it goes unnoticed and there is nothing one can do about it! 😢

[@rafaela00002]

great video!! this reminds me of verilybitchie's video about harry potter and coypright, makes me wonder if these conversations about the books' quality would be happening so much if they were on public domain

[@thenobin]

HP was a very important franchise to me, and I lost my closest friends and most of my support system while trying to speak to them about the harm she was doing. I think watching some of these videos just makes the loss hurt a little less. But I very much understand your point, and it still pains me that other people are not willing to hear it.

[@feidreth2504]

Knew/know a guy who insisted he, by buying the Harry Potter game, was saving the developers because if it were to bomb, they'd look bad at their jobs to future employers. I was like.... uh... wut? Just donate to some workers' rights thing or something if you're so heartbroken over their terrible fates. lol

[@CouncilofGeeks]

Seriously. Help fund unionization efforts if you want to actually help with job security.

[@DoctorBabylon]

I agree with most of what your saying. The quality of the work isn't really relevant to the harm JK Rowling causes or that buying anything new from this franchise would make me complicit in that harm. That being said I really don't have any positive feelings towards this franchise anymore and anytime I try to look back at the books all I can see are the flaws, bigotry, and the red flags that went over my head as a kid (the worst is the House Elf slavery thing because I did notice how fucked up that was when I was a child but just compartmentalized it and kept on reading and enjoying). In hindsight I guess it was lucky that Cursed Child and Fantastic Beasts were mediocre, because that made swearing off any new official content easier. A lot easier than not watching Sandman Season 2 is going to be.

[@AurinneA]

The vast majority of people or videos I've personally come across seem to be from people who never liked the Harry Potter series from the start (which is fine, no story appeals to everyone). It's like they finally get to totally bash something that they found annoying that other people liked and know that nobody can defend it anymore without having their values questioned. But, even if some (or a lot) of their criticism is valid, the fact remains that that series had some merit and the proof is that masses of people around the world were capitvated by it and many found solace and inspiration. That is just the ones I'm seeing (I'm sure it's not what all are like out there), but they feel like the kind of narrow-minded, bad faith snobbery that often exists in creative circles, rather than sincere re-evaluations of something. You make so many great points in this. Honestly, this is the first HP video I've watched fully in a very long time. I'm trying to do my small part not to make anything about Rowling relevant anymore and not to make content related to her or her works continue to be appealing topics for content creators to discuss. Let's relegate her to sitting her castle silently counting her billions... 🙃

[@subtlegong2817]

You can say “Was it ever good?” about any franchise that elevated to cultural mythology. Star Wars stilted and flatly written, Lord of the Rings reads like dry history text, Lovecraft is repetitive and overly dramatic. The details are often ignored if the story resonates with the audience. Harry Potter resonated with its audience and became mythologized by the public. Then, like Lovecraft, the author got outed as a bigot. That’s the issue.

[@annaphallactic]

I've been making the point about the series' editors (or lack thereof) for years. It's nice to hear someone else pick up on that!

[@layneathebutterfly4959]

I love how kind you are to fans like me who grew up with this, and who are now feeling bad for liking it. I am a huge fan and have been going back and forth if I should by the game. One hand: Everything you said. Other hand: I'm disabled, can't work and live in chronic pain, I do feel like i have had sacrificed enough joy in my life. Should i now sacrifice something i truly love and my biggest escapism to support a community I'm not part of? And this video actually made me more okay with that. I'm not saying 100% I'm not buying it. But its like 60-40 to not buying it and not feeling sad in that decision.

[@Travelenthusiastrk28]

Honestly this video was amazing Vera. I never grew up with Harry Potter but I had older millennial friends who did and it confused me why. But letting go of fandoms you care about is hard. It's hard but necessary entirely especially when we know the creators or industry are actively committing harm.

[@GarnetHeartIllustrations]

I still despise the fact that she uses the pseudonym Robert Galbraith. The lady who showed a penchant for “clever names” using the name of the guy who created conversion therapy? That’s no accident.

[@ZoeMalDoran]

I am perhaps fortunate that I never got into Harry Potter in the first place. I may well be mistaken, as I don't always pay attention to the misdeeds of various creators, but I think the biggest "Am I a horrible person for still liking this?" for me would be Buffy the Vampire Slayer (and Angel) after everything that came out about Joss Whedon abusing the cast. There are almost certainly other things, but that's the one that springs most readily to mind... and I'm blanking on what else to say right now. Thanks for providing food for thought, Vera. Stay safe out there 🖖

[@lfrancis8980]

A smaller note, but I also think it's perfectly fine to like "bad" media. Some romance and YA authors write at an eigth-grade reading level (not moralizing just a fact) and are the sweetest most progressive people you'll ever meet. The "quality" of someone's art is not indicative of their character.

[@e.malloy7530]

This is how I feel about enjoying Fourth Wing and the Empyrean series. Is it groundbreaking literature? No. Is it enjoyable? Absolutely yes. Is the creator progressive? IDK (ex-mormon apparently??) but her main character has a disability and they don't just hand wave that trait away with magic. I think it's always important to be aware of the underpinnings of a work, even if it's fun, because that's how the bad guys get you - no one is immune to propaganda - but it is also okay to enjoy something and then leave it behind because of personal/political/social reasons or just not liking the work. These things don't always have to align perfectly. The world is a morally grey place.

[@sonyakinsey4376]

I think it's also the age of the first wave of the fan base. They are now in their 30s and able to look back with some emotional distance and objectivity on something that was a huge part of their adolescence.

[@carschmn]

I have always thought the value in Harry Potter was not the actual quality of the work as much as how effective it was in getting children to read. I consider it kind of in line with Goosebumps and Animorphs as YA book series that got kids to read in the 90s and early 00s.

[@AmbrGlw]

Just based off of first impressions, it's nice to see that we're finally getting beyond the first wave of reactions.

[@craftypacaderm]

My partner and I both read the books growing up, watched the movies. And they had a really hard time with the idea that they shouldn't buy the game. We still have our movies, our books, and a scarf we got, like awkward keepsakes that gather dust in our apartment. It sucks that JK can't seem to see that her fear of men is a huge issue that she needs to work through and not trans folks' problem.

[@erics3367]

11:00 I read the books (the German translation that is) back in school from like 6th grade 2004 upward. I then didn't feel that they were written badly maybe the translation fixed many problem the original had on a sentence base. But with book 7 I needed like three attempts to even get through it all. The first half was a bloated mess. For them to then go and make this into a part one movie with all the problems that this part has is still beyond me. 7.1 is for that reason the movie that I just skipped when it came out in cinemas, And I went in for all the other movies since 3 basically week one. I was young and JK hadn't revealed herself back then, please don't come at me

[@Engineer_Who]

I'm grateful for the creators who aren't asking whether HP was ever good and have moved on to the more constructive question, "How harmful are the messages in Harry Potter?"

[@writeathomewithRachel]

Thank you for expressing your point of view and take. I think people can and should objectively question any art at any time; art exists to be questioned, to be examined, to be admired or to be challenged; whatever the artist's original intent in putting the art into the world might have been (including pure commercialism). But I get that if the motivation behind the questioning feels less like an objective questioning of the art and more like an exercise in making the questioner and audience feel better because the artist has turned out to be a terrible person, it feels like a redundant and nonsensical exercise. The core concept of Harry Potter remains captivating to the imagination to me despite Rowling's views which I utterly oppose (and my agreement that the writing after book 3 is either poorly edited, not edited, or the editing notes were ignored and the ignoring was accepted because of the wild success of the series). Admittedly, I fall into the group which is "I continue to love the art created, even if I hate the artist." That said, for all the reasons you elucidate I generally can never abide looking at anything new once the artist has revealed themselves or been revealed. The art they go onto produce may be just as objectively great and captivating but I will never give them future patronage.

[@rebeckajarl3934]

I really love how good you are on leading the narrative through videos like this, leave room for all the different points to really sink in before you bring it back to the original point again. I'm just sorry you had to do it with a topic like this again. I really appreciate your approach, voice and honesty.

[@adamdavis1648]

Why do so many people assume the goblins are meant to represent Jewish people?

[@JennaGetsCreative]

Harry Potter was legitimately a magical, welcoming thing to read in its time and I can't ever deny that it meant a lot to me and I'm very sad to have put it away. I watch some of those videos you showed because I like seeing other people finally acknowledge the problems many of us were realizing before 2020, and some of those creators are doing it in a very entertainingly sassy way. But I also still watch creators who enjoy Harry Potter trivia (not specifically to watch them do that, though.) I packed away my Harry Potter books and DVDs and Lego Harry Potter games with a lot of sadness. I didn't buy the new game or watch the rest of Fantastic Beasts or start introducing my daughter to the series even though I dreamed of those things a decade ago. I've made sure anyone in my life who might buy me a gift knows I don't want money spent on Harry Potter in my name. I don't look at the question as "Was it even good?" because it was. I look at is as "Which valid criticisms were ignored before the author showed her hand?"

[@aricho3558]

I do think that the point you made about the fandom being finally willing to listen to criticism once the author made it clear she was a terrible person is an understated part of this entire discussion. As someone who hated the series since book 2 it felt LIBERATING to finally be able to say that I didn't like the series, that it had problems, and not immediately be called a made up slur from their not very good series of books. It frustrates me to see people pushing back on the criticism, saying that they actually were good because they were popular. A lot of things have been popular that were, not very good. Disco Duck made it to number 15 on the billboard charts (look it up) and Yes, I would agree that if the creator of Disco Duck were a bigot causing actual harm that "Disco Duck is not very good" would be sort of a non sequitur. But it would still be true.

[@jackdavinci]

I unironically adore Disco Duck 😁

[@musenightingale]

I used to be a big fan of the series, but even I found it liberating to finally be able to talk about some of its flaws. Certain parts of the fandom were really not open to listening to criticism.

[@AmarisFrede]

I love the HP fandom more than I ever loved the books. I stopped reading after 5 when it came out and was disappointing to me. But the fandom with their stories and fanart is dear to me, even just as an observer. So even if "it never was any good", it still gave people something to make good out of. And watching these video essays actually shows me so much about the world that the fandom is sourcing from, which I find so interesting. I also learn a lot about how to structure critique. So I do like to watch them. But I'm very glad you're pointing out how this can be a coping mechanism, to possibly avoid making choices that might sacrifice joy from your life. I remember when Legacy came out, how many creators showed their true colors (or rather just their priorities), and how it ripped fans apart, those that wanted to boycott in solidarity, and those that didn't care. I unfollowed a few peeps I enjoyed watching, because they just didn't care, and that did hurt. But them not caring disappointed me more. Sorry this isn't well structured, I'm tired. But wanted to leave a comment with my thoughts. Thank you for your sign-off. I'm always touched to hear your validation. 🌺🐀🐀🐀

[@palomaroggeri8680]

Thank you so much for voicing my thoughts about this after I had them for so long. I loved harry potter, I loved the world and characters, I bought the books and went to universal when I was a kid, I cried when I saw the castle. But the stuff came out about JK and I stopped. I stopped engaging with the property, buying things, I don’t watch the movies. But it felt so weird and out of touch when people made so many videos criticizing if the movies or books were any good in the first place because that’s not the point of all of this. I was at a Christmas party with my step dad’s family, and I was sat at the “kids” table even though all of us were young adults, and I knew that one of the people there was a massive raging harry potter fan, the type of person that met JK in real life, owns every single piece of merch that exists from harry potter and will brag about it. And that’s what happened, she kept talking about it with other people in the room and I just felt so uncomfortable. I spoke out after like hours and said “I really liked harry potter but I try not to be a fan anymore.” And she just asked me why, slightly offended but also kind of alloof, like she had no possible idea why someone would say that, and I said because JK is a terrible person. And then she kept going on about death of the author and I just said “yeah but I don’t spend money on it, that way I don’t give money to her and her transphobic causes” and she said “but there are so many people that also worked on harry potter and any ways I just can’t give up Harry potter its the best thing ever made and hogwarts legacy is the best game ever made-” and I just gave up. It was so weird, and awkward and I just wanted to get out of there.

[@ShadowTiger.4000]

I agree completely. If I ever feel the need to buy Harry potter merch (whether for myself or as a gift) I always make sure to buy fan-made stuff. I don't want to be giving her any money. I also try and stay out of fan spaces since they've become very toxic