Courting Scandal: The Royal Household & Jane Boleyn

Jane Boleyn, sister-in-law of Queen Anne Boleyn and wife of George Boleyn, found herself embroiled in the dangerous politics of the Tudor court. Following the execution of George and Anne for treason in 1536, Jane managed to navigate the treacherous world of Tudor politics and maintain a position in each successive queen's household. However, her association with Katheryn Howard ultimately led to her downfall, and she was executed alongside the queen in 1542. Jane's story is a cautionary tale about the perils of power and ambition in the Tudor court.
I had the pleasure of speaking with Dr. James Taffe about his new book, Courting Scandal: The Rise and Fall of Jane Boleyn, Lady Rochford. During our conversation, we delved into the intricacies of the Tudor royal household and the role that Jane played in it. I learned so much from our discussion, and it gave me a greater appreciation for the fascinating and complex world of Tudor history.
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Credits:
Host: Rebecca Larson
Guest: Dr. James Taffe
Edited by: Rebecca Larson
Voice Over: David Black
Music: Ketsa, Alexander Nakarada, and Winnie the Moog

[@michellehamilton8875]

Fascinating discussion. I ordered his book. I find it fascinating that the defenders of Jane want her to be innocent because she was a woman. People are rarely all good or all bad, and from the sounds of it Jane was a complex mixture of both.

[@TudorsDynasty]

I could not agree with you more - I deal with this with Thomas Seymour ALL the time!! But in the same breath, I can say I'm also guilty of thinking Anne Stanhope was a terrible person. The truth is, like you said, most people are not all good or all bad - they were just like you and I - complex people. :)

[@LadyLibertyBella]

I agree with the author here. Jane like all women are complex and we have to understand that our perspectives on life today can’t overshadow the way of life then. I have personally found it frustrating that many historical women’s stories are being written with almost a victim narrative. I find doing this takes away these women’s true autonomy. Women at court had huge power and used it. People are not one dimensional and should be understood as they were and why. People want to paint Henry as the villain ignoring the historical context to his life, reign and world events. Just as people don’t accept these women were very much involved in all his ‘romantic’ decisions and many huge actions. These women were not weak, subservient victims. They had great importance, influence and power they used for good or bad. No one lives in a vacuum. History like life today is complex and we have to try not to put our values of today onto them. Just as our stories will become history and the values will be different as well. We should learn from these figures, men and women, great and common.

[@flowerchild2657]

👋🏻

[@ladyshakari]

I think Jane was in the many queens households because she was giving information to the King about what was going on in the Queens household.

[@maligoddess2879]

I personally believe Jane was a spy for the king but she never forgave him for her husbands murder therefore the story of Katherine Howard

[@MD-hp6st]

That’s a really intriguing thought. He made more enemies than he’d ever realized

[@ruthceballos-oy9ht]

Interesting.

[@gonefishing167]

Wow, that was very interesting, thank you. The book sounds really good 👍👍👵🇦🇺

[@leerdee]

I really enjoyed this and the authors take on Jane. Thank you.

[@astrohaterade]

51:21 I’m really sorry you had to deal with that. Thank you for your analysis. It’s scary how emotion can override the prevalence of evidence.

[@merylmel]

Thanks for this educational and entertaining piece.

[@jmmcgee3509]

Thank you! I am a woman, and I’ve been so frustrated with the portrayal of Jane as an innocent martyr, particularly when it comes to Catherine Howard. I will order the book today.

[@annalisette5897]

What makes NO sense in this saga is how could Katherine Howard (Anne Boleyn's cousin) and Jane Boleyn (Anne's sister-in-law), have been SO STUPID???!!!! Or did they think they could get away with severe misbehavior? At minimum, neither seems to have learned from the past. The only reasonable explanation I can think of is that Henry was having difficulty in the bedroom and young Katherine consulted other men for ideas about how to stimulate Henry. Or, if Henry was so ill, due to the leg ulcer, that he would not see Katherine, perhaps she did anticipate his death sooner rather than later and she was looking at her future.

[@Juanita-gf4te]

Both Culpepper and Dereham said that Jane acted as a bawd, like a madam in a brothel......and Dereham was jealous of Culpepper being chosen over him.....some in the queens household noticed things but said nothing. Although some saw Dereham's over familiarity with the young queen, whom he drunkenly responded to one telling off with "I was familiar with her before she was queen and know her better than you ever will, for I have had her by the c---t and would know it among a thousand". Of course he wasn't believed at the time by the other servants, but it came to light later. He was suicidal in blackmailing the young queen into giving him a position, and then by not acting discreetly. He and Culpepper and Lady Rochford and Katherine Howard were all suicidal if they thought they could get away with this. Some of Katherines other ladies suspected things but said nothing at the time.

[@maishaahmed915]

Great episode! Will check out the book.

[@annkelly0072]

Great discussion!

[@AJShiningThreads]

As im listening to this im hand embroidering a period replica underskirt panel using real gold snd silver period correct threads. I can hand sew -- by myself-- an entire tudor court ensemble -- kirtle, and over gown -- in 2 weeks so back then i image it could have taken as little as 3 days possibly less as many hands make light work. The hand embroidery for the underskirts and sleeve lowers (fore part and fore sleeves) can take me up to 8 weeks of working 8 to 10 hour days but i read these could be worked up in about a week with professional broiders.

[@christyb2912]

Excellent discussion - I will buy the book.

[@Juanita-gf4te]

Elizabeth of York was criticized for spending too much money on her extended family whom she was largely supporting. She had to support everyone within her budget.

[@katiejamison4238]

From what I understand and read,Jane's father and Thomas Cromwell were really good friends. And that her father stepped in and begged Thomas to help protect his daughter when Anne and George fell. He could have stepped in again to continue Jane's roles in court and with the future Queens.

[@Juanita-gf4te]

I don't believe that Queen Anne would ever have confided something so sensitive to any of her ladies. The king may have been impotent from time to time, but he did impregnate Anne several times, but he also impregnated Jane Seymour. I don't believe he was impotent with Anne of Cleves either but refrained, knowing he was going to use non consummation of the marriage as a way to get an annulment. Sure he didn't fancy Anne of Cleves or took a dislike to her but men have been known to consummate relationships with women they weren't attracted to. The old joke about just put a paper bag over her head.......

[@katescrimgeour3884]

Here's my idea - and any writer can take it on. OK - historical fiction - has to be fiction. Jane's reward for assisting the King on the downfall of her husband George and sister in law Anne is a job working a a spy/agent for Thomas Cromwell. Cromwell guarantees Jane a job as a Queen's lady in return for insight and information about the Queen's household. He provides her with protection at court and extra income that she does not get from her dowry, and she provides him with information. Cromwell masterminds the whole Culpepper/Catherine Howard affair with Jane as the one bringing it to fruition. Of course, it all spectactularily backfires on both of them - Jane most of all because she always felt that working for Cromwell would protect her. Her "madness" before her execution stems from her rage that she was used and duped as much as Catherine and Culpepper were. What do you think? Oh and of course, I ordered the book!

[@katescrimgeour3884]

OK - never mind - I'll leave the idea up here - as Cromwell is dead and can't mastermind the Catherine Howard plot. Duh. So we will need to find another spy master to continue on with Cromwell's work

[@Juanita-gf4te]

The king sent Katherine Parrs paramour away on an overseas mission so he could court her.....Katherine even though horrified, truly felt it her religious duty to marry the king and hopefully influence him over the reformation....but she almost went too far and was nearly arrested. Even his beloved Jane Seymour had no influence over the destruction of the abbeys and was firmly put in her place.

[@Juanita-gf4te]

I can't see the pious Catholic princess Mary approving any of her friends becoming the kings mistress. She didn't get like Anne Boleyn (I don't blame her) and she didn't get on with Catherine Howard at first. Neither did she approve of Lutheran Anne of Cleves at first but she and Elizabeth became good friends when she took them under her wing, even when her marriage was annulled. Mary also fell out with Katherine Parr because of her reformist leanings, even though Katherine had made them a real family and treated them all as if they were her own children. Jane Seymour also had a hand in getting the family together.

[@Juanita-gf4te]

Anne didn't persuade Henry to leave his wife.....he was already planning it before he ever met Anne (se Mark Holinshed). Henry wanted a son and Katherine was by now in menopause. He had Wolsey secretly scouting France for a suitable princess or noble lady he could marry, and was sure he could get an annulment once his case was set out. According to Holinshed if was Wolsey who put the idea in Henry's head that his marriage was not legitimate. Wolsey had his own agenda.....he hated Katherine of Aragon and her nephew, the Emperor, who had promised numerous times to make Wolsey Pope, but Wolsey watched Popes come and go.......and he realized he had been tricked. So he didn't want an alliance with the Emperor or with Spain, he wanted an alliance with the French instead. He felt that Katherine had to go and any alliance with Spain. He had investigations into the kings marriage going on in secret while he went to France looking for a suitable bride for his king, and the French king was going along with it.....he didn't want England allying with Spain either. Sadly for Wolsey when he returned he found the king chasing Anne Boleyn.......which he hoped was just a passing fling but when he realized it wasn't he was humiliated after all the efforts he had put in while in France. What would he tell the French king now? He had no choice but to go along with his kings wishes even though he didn't want a Boleyn influencing the king, or sitting on the throne. Ironically if it had been anyone but Anne Boleyn, say a French princess, he would likely have gotten an annulment as kings often did then, because his wife was older and barren and he had no legitimate male heirs......and if they had struck early enough before Rome was sacked and the Pope held prisoner.....the schemers may well have gotten an annulment and poor Katherine sent away.

[@Juanita-gf4te]

Jane was well rewarded for her complicity......until Katherine Howard, and that duplicity.

[@Juanita-gf4te]

Anne Boleyn enjoyed dicing and gambling against the king and she won quite a lot of money from him. However she was generous in her charitable donations.

[@selinakyle_]

Jane, in my opinion, was not a victim. I'm sure she was envious of Anne at the moment, but they were once friends. It's just that George was never interested in Jane. I believe his love for his sisters and mistresses, as well as the Boleyn ambitions, drove Jane over the edge, and as a woman scorned, under pressure, seeking vengeance, and desiring a reasonably secure life, she lied about her sister-in-law and husband. That had been their downfall, and it was about to be hers as well.

[@topcat9852]

Bad behaviour should be called out no matter who it is or when it happens. The bad behaviour in this case is betrayal of many people. My take is this : Jane WAS jealous of Anne and George. Those two believed they were way better than anyone else at court and thought that making fun of people was amusing which is very unpleasant. I also think that the forward in George’s translation of some religious tract or other which was dedicated to Anne was downright creepy. No one talks to a blood relative like that in writing or in any other way ( unless any of you tell me you have proof to the contrary and no, I don’t think the Borgia’s are a good example). In fact, Anne was heavily influenced by Marguerite of Angouleme who was notoriously suspected of having an incestuous relationship with her brother Francis I of France. It’s text book narcissism. Anne and George looked into each others faces and minds and saw perfection. Jane had enough of their shenanigans and made trouble for them. I don’t care if she did write to her husband while he was in the tower - she was probably playing both ends off against the middle. Jane knew that Henry was a vicious son of a gun, gave Cromwell what he wanted and knew it would not end well for the pair of them. She wanted to come out smelling of roses AND SHE DID. Anne should have kept her narcissism in check ( ie every man wants to sleep with me, every woman wants to be me) or else she wouldn’t have self snitched with Henry Norris. Just because Anne was a very clever , ambitious, calculating and manipulating person who happened to be a woman doesn’t make her any less reckless, boorish and ultimately a victim of her own self regard. The same goes for Jane. There were several men around at the time with massive personality defects who are equally famous and have been equally criticised. It’s misogynistic to try and assert that woman CAN’T behave badly or that it was solely a sexist environment which made them behave badly. It’s called personal responsibility.

[@richardpearce1114]

Reckon Jane was a bit of a sweetie, she must have felt sorry for that young girl lying underneath that rotting grotesque hulk night after night, anyone decent would've smuggled a handsome groom in up the back stairs, it would be the least you could do.

[@jmmcgee3509]

You know, I can see that. At least it must have been awful for Catherine. No wonder she had an affair.

[@dragonclaws9367]

The smell must have been unimaginable... rosewater isn't gonna fix that. I agree.