CP 5803 EAST STALLS AT THE UPPER SPIRAL TUNNEL

[@williambalyx1053]

My first job with CP was on the "Yoho" Gang, we lived in converted cattle cars in the backtrack at Yoho all winter and picked ice everyday out of the spiral tunnels. Crazy job as we would stay in the tunnels when the trains came through, as soon as you fely the wind you ran for cover, that was winter 0f 77/78. Hired back on in 1981 in Revelstoke as a trainman, qualified as a LE in 1985, retired 2013.

[@MrMASSEYJONES]

I find it highly gratifying, that loco CP5803 has been r/n CP5903 and preserved at Exporail just south of Montreal, after serving with a few regional railroads before retirement and static display, as part of their very large collection.

[@Fishformalnsr]

Absolutely amazing footage..thank you so much for sharing....just recently there was a major derailment on that section..this video sure shows all of us the steep grade and challenges the line has...my heart go out to the men that lost there lives in this recent tragedy ..

[@wishusknight3009]

1 in 46 (2.2%) !

[@MrMASSEYJONES]

Yep! 2.2%. Check it out online. Before the tunnels, it was a dangerous 4.4%, some say 4.5%. Visualize one of the old wood burners, going down that grade over 10 miles, from Wapta Lake to Field B.C.

[@MrMASSEYJONES]

Something I could have mentioned that i mostly found in advanced railfan literature; is that, while the 2 tunnels have the same grade and curvature, the upper tunnel is slightly longer and, while the lower raises the train by 50 ft (15. 24 m), the upper raises the train by 56 ft (17.069 m). In winter at that altitude, the upper tunnel is probably more slippery than the lower one. Then, there’s the steady rise of 2.2% between the tunnels at Yoho, to factor-in also. The vertical rise between the 2 tunnels is about 500 ft (about 155 m). Both tunnels have the train running through a 3/4 circle (240 degrees) mfj

[@jonathanvoigt2690]

Old video and an old comment but I should add: There's also the relative increase in friction due to more of the train occupying the rest of the curved track leading up to and inside the upper tunnel, compared to the track leading up to and away from both tunnels

[@MrMASSEYJONES]

For the information of those not aware: The video was shot in an era when cabooses (vans) were still in service on freight (goods) trains; and at the end of the video, the caboose and some of the cargo is still into the tunnel (on a 2.2% grade), one of you wrote 1:46 The shake is due to telephoto, about 1/4 mile Away from the train and a telephoto lens magnifies every small movement. A tripod was not carried on this hike and it was cold, with the bad westher quickly moving in.

[@brenthill3241]

Wonderful footage and a great explanation of the details.

[@MrMASSEYJONES]

I like my videos on the technical side; runpasts are a dime a dozen and I photographed (in 35mm), hundreds of them over 60 years; some on fantrips; others alone.

[@MustangsTrainsMowers]

Reminds me of the Lionel layout I built in 2006 with a 3.5% grade S curve on 48” diameter Fastrak. An 8 car train would stall in the same place almost every time.

[@margaretross9150]

Impressive video. It makes me appreciate those who haul our goods through this difficult terrain.

[@MrMASSEYJONES]

I'm surprised about the amount of views. I will be frank that it is a video which I hesitated in publishing, because there are many of better quality out there. Sorry that the editing wasn't better; it was one of my early videos.. Thanks a lot to all of you; I have been trackside for 60 years and do my own railfanning, usually away from foamers.

[@MrMASSEYJONES]

I pologize for the shaky video, i’s my heart beating too hard, plus a 40:1 zoom with no tripod.. I am also not too well positioned on rock ledge and expected the usual 10-minute climb by the train. and it took well over 30 (not too warm) minutes and the weather was turning bad.

[@joestrainworldvideos3977]

That is one of the most interesting train spots, if not the most impressive. Joe

[@MrMASSEYJONES]

Unfortunately, the viewpoint changed a lot over the years; no longer giving rail enthusiasts, the view it once did. I started to visit in the 1960s, and by the 2000s, the trees had grown so tall, as to obscure the view of the train entering the llower spiral, and, a few minutes later, passing in front of the visitor platform, with full view of theb lovomotives and train. All there is this time, is a couple of toots by the VIA “Canadian”, which no longer circulates thrre; but now goes through Edmonton and Jasper; with the only passenger train being the (daylight only) Rocky Mountaineer, between Banff and Vancouver , with about 15 cars. CPR Freight trains continue to use the tunnels almost hourly; with an average of 4 locos of late generation; sometimes incliding either amid train unit or a pusher or both. Infortunately in this video, I was hiking the 10-mile hill and hadn’t brought a tripod on the Greyhound; and it’s with afterthought, that I climbed straight up from the highway, where the observation post is located. My main regret in this video is the sudden jerk I encountered, when the lovid suddenly revved up, after a period of fairly long silence. In hindsight, I also wish that I had registered times on the screen. The whole operation took about 30 minutes, and the weather was fast deteriorating; there were about 7 miles to go downhill, to catch the next Greyhound bus. Notice that there is no snow by the lower spiral tunnel, but some in the sequences of the upper spiral.

[@music9556]

love the sound of those turbos

[@j.m.youngquist419]

It's kind of hard to tell but are those SD 40's, yeah they are never mind ! Great job!

[@KARTAVIDEO2TRAINS]

Wow, the recording position is very good. Greetings from Indonesia.

[@terryduane9221]

2019 Run a way CP rail grain train , were 112 cars, stopped near Upper spiral tunnel, with around 80 cars with 75 % retainers set, started to run a way from the train crew and derailed near Canada trans highway over pass,into the kicking horse river killing all three crew members. Can’t believe the train stopped in emergency on field hill by outlaw crew , only put retainers on the cars.It was in winter in sub artic conditions which made it hard to work in.

[@terryduane9221]

Canadian news media reported 80 cars with retainer valves set.

[@jamesroberts1810]

They had a clip in on line taking bout the derailment.. the earlier crew add to emergency stop the train due to horrible air break problems at the top of the mountain and the train set there in -28 degrees weather for like 3 hours and the next crew got on and the train ran away down the mountain and crashed

[@MrMASSEYJONES]

CPKC now operates with Distributed Power on most long-range trains; and it would likely have solved the traction problem within the tunnel; but at the time, the concept had not yet been thought of; and freight trains still used a rear conductor and brakeman in the caboose.

[@AlwaysHalloween000]

thanks for posting and showing this

[@MrMASSEYJONES]

@Mr99Boxer - Thanks for your kind comment. My next video within a couple of days is a 1987 trip between North Vancouver & Squamish BC. Pure steam, no diesel, no runpast, no commentary, just the train.we ride it there and back - about 20 minutes long. check out my video of the CN 6060 blasting out of the tunnel at Britannia BC. I have done my own railfanning for 60 years. mfj

[@garylarson6386]

worked for the c&w back in the 80's with 1500 hp units and bad dispachers we were always doubleing hills

[@MrMASSEYJONES]

Did you look at my video here of a 95-mile cab ride in an SD40? There were inly 3 of us, in the cab; 2 op and myself.

[@freighttrainsahpassing9790]

very nice over head view !!!

[@joehvacr2515]

When you hit the “stall point” in #8 you just wait until you move ahead or after 4~5 minutes shut it down and double the hill. Getting paid by the mile, the latter is the last option.

[@brianburns7211]

With AC traction you can wait to see if traction can be regained. With DC power like the SD40, the locomotive must be moving over its minimum continuous speed for the amount of amps which are produced. Failure to do this will fry traction motors. Beyond the continuous speed is what’s called short time. The load meters let the engineer know how long he could stay in short time. The more amps, and the less speed, the deeper into short time you are, and the less time there is to keep going. If the short time limit was reached, the train had to stop. The motors were cooled by placing the reverser in neutral, and throttle in 4. This allowed no power to be produced, but the motor cooling blowers to push more air through the vents. Later computer controlled locomotives like -8, 60 series had monitoring of the motors. They cut back power if the motors get too hot.. The engineer didn’t have to watch the meter so much. They didn’t necessarily have to double the hill. If additional power was available, then it could give a push.

[@smartyjones7459]

Excellent explanation... thanks...

[@brianburns7211]

Smarty Jones Doubling is good for lap back miles though! One rainy night I had a unit oil train. On the steepest hill of the run they put on a 10 mph slow order. We had no buffer car on the rear, so no shove was allowed. The local was behind us and suggested running around one of their cars for a push, but the brains said no. We ended up getting the train back together at the top, and that was it. We were out of time.

[@MrMASSEYJONES]

Today’s unit trains are a lot longer (average 10,000 ft (2 miles - 3.2 km); with 2 units in front, a mid-train unit and sometimes, a pusher; all latest generation diesels. Don’t expect too much if you are at the Trans-Canada viewpoint, as the trees have grown a great deal and this is a national park (Yoho Park), where the trees will not be cut down, ever. The nearest habitation is Lake Louise, a few kilomers east of the Spirals, and 10 miles (16 km) downj “The Big Hill” (which is why the Spirals were constructed), is Field BC, a hub of railroad activity, where crews change, from that, to or from Calgary; to the one which will be driving the train through the Canadian Rockies to and from Vancouver on the West Coast; through several tunnels and bridges, where the train through scenery, practically photographs itself.

[@trevorjones8520]

And to think this track and tunnels were built by normal everyday people using pucks and shovels with no gps.

[@jamesburnside3023]

Great video Thanks for sharing

[@anderswakatsuki]

This is great footage!

[@MrMASSEYJONES]

Except the part immediately after the stall, when the units start up again. It caught me by surprise and I jumped. But i chose to leave it into the edit. It got cold and miserable up there and my fingers were alsi slightly numb.

[@MrMASSEYJONES]

Unfortunately, because it is a National Park (Yoho Park); the trees will never be cut down, which impedes the view of trains around the Lower Portal, from the Trans-Canada Highway. A higher point helps (by the Upper Spiral Tunnel (as here); but care must be taken to avoid being on CPR property (the right of way). For the hardy, the rest of the mountain is just fine; the higher, the better.

[@superazusaandazusarailroad6783]

Awesome video👍😊

[@kaisanhoque6976]

I hope that bridge still gets used 😢

[@paulhansen3078]

So I am curious about this splitting process. Does that mean cars are just left on the track with hand brakes until they can back another set of locomotives in to them? I remember hearing once that they used to add extra power there to push trains up the grade. Great video. Also thanks for taking the time writing out the great description.

[@MrMASSEYJONES]

After the train has left the Upper Spiral, there’s a bit of double tracking (a hole) where trains can wait for one another, that are using the (single track) tunnel. you can see a waiting train in a video I submittted, while riding the Rocky Mountaineer and a CPR freight is waiting for us to pass at the top. So... it’s plausible that the locomotives ran around the load and picked up the other section, which was then recouped to the first and I don’t know about the caboose(van), which were still in use then. At any rare, there would have been the head end conductor and the tail end conductor to help with operations, each equipped with a radio. CPR is a large Class I railroad and operations would have been directed from Calgary, about 3 hours away as the cro flies. we’re sure that many handbrakes were applied, it’s a 2.2% grade (downhill for the cars); we’re dealing with a professional organization, here, that’s been operating in the area since about 1888. The spirals were built in 1909 through 2 mountains. I figure the recovery would take about an hour and it was getting colder and darker, so I climbed back down and left. The temperature when I took the video was around +10C ( 50F) and falling.

[@scoobycarr5558]

That looks impressive considering you probably didn't have a tripod

[@MrMASSEYJONES]

You are absolutely right. I actually have 7 tripods in different sizes, but they’re usually either too small or too big for a hike. This time, after videoing a VIA train from the highway viewpoint, I decided to climb 300 ft almost straight up and a tripod would have been a hinderance for sure.

[@kellonmarcelo5386]

Perfeito...amo trens

[@MrMASSEYJONES]

Muchas Gracias

[@charlesdell2864]

Can't understand that 4 locomotives and still stalls out.

[@MrMASSEYJONES]

Looking at the video, there’s lots of snow around and it wasn’t a pretty day. The result of which, while the train made through 2 other mountain ranges earlier, conditions in the Spiral Tunnels were different, particularly in the Upper Spiral, which was probably cold and damp, resulting in a small coating of ice on the track. Look at the load, for the first few cars ; it’s a lot of lumber, which is extremely heavy and now, have it rise for 2. 1/4 ft, every 100 ft, on slippery rail for about a mile between the two tunnels, after struggling through the lower one. add to that the curvature of the tunnels (a three-quarter circle) for about 1000 ft and there’s the answer on a slippery rail, not planned at the outset for the load.

[@heronimousbrapson863]

I noticed there was no caboose. I thought they were in use until the 1990's.

[@MrMASSEYJONES]

If you look carefully at the video, it shows a caboose entering the lower spiral tunnel, just about when the locomotives just emerged and are now running 50 ft above. It’s easy to overlook the caboose, as the eye concentratesvon the locomotives. I invite viewers to not miss the caboose, in the description. mfj

[@MrMASSEYJONES]

Further to the above comment, the caboose is now inside, or around the upper spiral tunnel and it’s my guess that some of the crews from that caboose are now setting hand brakes; the grade is a steady 2.2% grade downhill, if the brakes let go.

[@mr99boxer30]

Interesting video. I have always been impressed with the CP spiral tunnels and wondered if any problems could occur. I guess the engineer's only option was to split the train. You can't call the motor club at that point. Although I would have called the Mounties for a push. Or better yet. the St. Bernard dogs for a drink of brandy. Or are those dogs only in Quebec Province? I would have needed them. Cheers ! (Thanks for your hard work filming this event!)

[@OrangeCrush1696]

if you do some looking around there was a triple fatality a couple days ago lead locomotive fell into the kicking horse valley all cp employees

[@jamesroberts1810]

Those tunnels have had 20 derailment an like 50 runaways trains over 4 decades

[@mattmatanovic1640]

How do you get to the upper tunnel from the highway? I’m wanting to visit the upper portal but not sure how to get there from the maps

[@MrMASSEYJONES]

Andwering your question, I haven't been to the Spirals for some time; but a simple snswer would be to park the car in the visitor area (make sure you lock everything), and then go straight up as I did; it's a fairly easy climb; aroynd 500 ft or so. While the track in CPR property, the surrounding mountain is not; just make sure you stay away from the right-of-way. There are open spots trackside, where you can photograph the train coming directly out of the top spital (many fans go there); but I was on a rock outcropping. For the lower Spiral, there's a trail nesrby, that will allow good closeups. Word of cautionhere, is that some (most) locos are no longer in pristine paint. Average is about I train per hour in either direction. Most trains are at least a mile long (no more pasenger, except The Rocky Mountaineer (may-September) snd they sre timed to arrive in Calgary from Vancouver in early morning both ways. Good time to get a train is between 10 am and 4 pm, after which the light isn't good. Also be aware that the weather changes quickly and that, up to June and starting in September, there will be snow at the Upper Spiral. Early morning and late night, you may encounter wildlife (wolves, bears); be aware of your surroundings; this is definitely not city railfanning.

[@curtnicholson7771]

I don't understand how you stahl out unless you weren't managing your power right to begin with. If you have the power to go from stopped to getting the whole train up and moving again and actually picking up some pretty good speed in just a couple of minutes?

[@K1W1fly]

that "restart" is only with half the train though.

[@curtnicholson7771]

K1W1fly Ok that explains it then. Thank you for that info. What do you think they do then? Pull it ahead to a siding and go back and get the rest or does the company send out additional engines? What is your idea on this?

[@stanpatterson5033]

Whether they drop the "head end" in a siding and go back for the rest, or if other locomotives get sent out is a decision made by the Director of operations, and it depends on the urgency of the situation, and also what is in between the incident and the location of the extra power. Sometimes, they will stop the very next train following behind, and cause it to run light power ahead to the stall, and push on the tail end to get the stall moving and out of the way. If there is nothing following, and no available power to come to the rescue, then the designated power in place will have to save themselves, cutting the train, securing the part to be left behind, dragging the head end to a safe place, and returning for the tail end. "Doubling the hill", because it represents double (or more) the work to be done. Years ago when there were 4-man crews, this was a more common solution, and was easier and quicker to do with more hands to do the work. Now, the Conductor takes a hike the length of the train in search of whatever problem may have arisen, and then often must hike back to the front after solving it. It's no fun at all because you have to carry the light, tools, a hosebag (in case it's a burst brake hose) all while treading on ballast, squeezing over bridges (if any), watching out for hazards, wild animals, in the dark (if after nightfall) and at the mercy of the elements, whatever the weather may be. All the while, you have the RTC checking on the progress, because he or she likely has other traffic wanting to get through. After the problem is rectified, you still have the RTC hounding you for answers to stupid questions (some of them make sense, others are just silly) about what the problem was, the car number, was it the "A" and or the "B" end, what position was the throttle in when the incident happened, slack action, unusual handing characteristics, and other silly questions such as when was the last time you went to the bathroom prior to the incident occurring, did you wipe thoroughly, did you wash your hands afterwards, what you had for lunch, etc.

[@curtnicholson7771]

Stan Patterson It's funny (in itself) what all you mentioned and then I think up in Canada where they are allowing CP or CN although I believe it's CP that running totally huge trains with an engineer only! What the f___ does he do on a breakdown out in the total wilderness by himself? And now not to mention all the things you brought up it made me think of one thing one night while watching rail videos, and this could even be on two man crew train. I don't know if you know the answer for this or not, but is the person walking outside in the wilderness allowed to carry a hand gun for protection from predators? I would love to know the answer to this question?

[@stanpatterson5033]

I'm not aware of any trains running outside of yards with one man only. There was a small Class II railway that used to do it on former CP trackage until the Lac Megantic incident, but as far as I know, both CN and CP don't send out a train with fewer than 2 people. And no, no handguns. Sometimes if a breakdown occurs in a more populated area where there are more road crossings (and access), it's possible that other railway personnel might be nearby. It's not uncommon for MOW workers, signal maintainers, etc. to be working within radio range of a broken-down train, and often they will stop what they are doing and use their vehicle to help with the transport of the train crew, especially if a knuckle needs to be moved from the head end back to a point near the tail of the train. Sometimes, when there is more than a single track, a train coming the same way or opposing, will stop and let the Conductor (and the knuckle) ride the footplate as the passing train makes its way around the one stopped in emergency. That's usually a one-way ride, and one-time only, because the passing train will then be on its way after it safely gets around the crippled one.

[@walterschivo9123]

How did the train wind up stuck inside the tunnel?

[@MrMASSEYJONES]

It’s not stuck ss you can see, but wheel slip, probably caused by icy track at that altitude, compared to about 100 ft (30+ meters) below, prevent the train from from gaining ground with the full load that it has, till the train is split. Canadian Pacific, being a large railroad, has carefully calculated everything, except for icy track that day and time. A train passes through the tunnels at least once every 2 hours or so, it’s the mainline between the east and west coast of Canada.

[@heinzbreuer2674]

Beethoven? GUT MUSIK AND BEAUTY TRAIN 🐘

[@MrMASSEYJONES]

Danke

[@heinzbreuer2674]

Kein Problem. Freue mich auf usa.2020 Paris los angeles Chicago to New York by train

[@markbeech3455]

Brute power

[@lalbahaduryadav163]

E

[@t0scanelli]

Noob train.