Crampton: The Basics

[@1991Shablya]

Thanks for describing one of incredible pages of railway history!

[@joelmorvan8298]

in the year 1968, i see "The Continent n°80" in action to the station of Cannes (southern region of France) . journey for comemorate electrification line of south coast, with convoy vintage. wonderfull British technologia of Mister T.R. Crampton. I was born to Epernay, my grand father work to workshop at "compagnie de l'Est" . This factory repare Crampton and "Cezanne", and building the big steam Mountain 241AXX.

[@jeanbonnefoy1377]

Crampton 4-2-0 locomotives are indeed the epitome of high speed passenger trains in France during the 19th Century and their memory remains almost as vivid as those of the De Caso or later Chapelon Pacific in the 20th, not only among railway fans but even for the man in the street, so wide was their fame.

[@furripupau]

The Stephenson locomotive Robert Fulton, built for the Mohawk & Hudson, was remodeled into a 4-2-0 during the 1830s. A four wheel truck was put under the front end, but the rear axle was relocated to behind the firebox. As Robert Fulton was an inside cylinder engine, the drive was sent to the rear wheels via outside connecting rods and a jackshaft, à la SER's Folkstone. I have to wonder if Stephenson had any knowledge of this modification before building Folkstone (it seems many American roads wrote Stephenson to report on their use or misuse of his engines, so I wouldn't be too surprised either way).

[@dennisadrianmiddendorp4013]

In the 1965 film " Lady L " I think The Duke's ( David Niven ) private train is hauled by a Crampton.

[@hythekent]

Another fascinating and highly researched offering. Many thanks Anthony

[@uncinarynin]

"My name is Crampton and I really have to invent something befitting my name." "How about a locomotive with a cramped firebox?" Looking at these I always think of them as oddities because, how do you bring enough weight on the single driving axle located far behind the centre of gravity? How do you prevent a single huge wheelset from slipping? I guess that is why they didn't last longer than one generation of locomotives: Trains got heavier and required more drawbar force that the Cramptons couldn't provide. Multiple coupled axles of large diameter, however, meant that the engineers had to dare putting the boiler in a much higher position, as has been done throughout the 20th century. As mentioned the express trains of the era were very lightweight (80 to 90 tons) so in their era the Cramptons were sufficient.

[@captainufo4587]

I wonder what kind of hell was being on the footplate of one of those locos at 60+ mph with little to no windshield.

[@channelsixtysix066]

And NO ROOF !! Crew had to work in all weathers. Not a pleasant job in the dead of winter.

[@connormclernon26]

@@channelsixtysix066 at least they had the furnace of the boiler to keep them warm

[@channelsixtysix066]

@@connormclernon26 Yeah, it only took until 1924 when GWR figured it was time to provide a proper cab for their locomotive crews.

[@Uftonwood2]

The cab was originally for the protection of the instruments. When men on GWR asked if a seat might be provided, Churchward refused saying that the footplate of a locomotive should be like a battle ship; clear and ready for action at all times and that there was never a moment when the crew should not be attending to the good running of the engine.

[@RockyRailroadProductions_B0SS]

Ooh, I've been excited for this one! High-wheeling, low-slung Cramptons are such aesthetically interesting engines!

[@saucypan-8796]

G ay mate I know you I love your video s

[@FQP-7024]

Well a very unique solution to a very much obvious problem of the engine designs of that era

[@brandonscherff9344]

Those British Cramptons look so cool. Hopefully one will get the new build treatment someday.

[@AnthonyDawsonHistory]

There is a plan to build one, but the project has gone very quiet of late :(

[@saucypan-8796]

Is it still going

[@douglasfleetney5031]

Wonderful Mr Dawson, just wonderful. Thank you very much for taking the time to do these.

[@AnthonyDawsonHistory]

You are very welcome

[@johnjephcote7636]

It was so popular in France that 'Prendre le Crampton' became synonymous with 'take the train'.

[@brianjohnson217]

Great videos on the old locomotives Andrew and very well narrated

[@AnthonyDawsonHistory]

Glad you like them!

[@robinforrest7680]

Les lévriers du rail! (Railway greyhounds) Most interesting. Merci. For a long time I thought the locomotive that featured as driver Jacques Lantier's machine in Emile Zola's "la Bête Humaine " was a Crampton. But he describes "La Lison" as being a four coupled machine (2 coupled axles), So it was probably a 4-4-0 of some sort (a 220 on the continent). Apparently Emile Zola was always a big railway fan and used to drive locomotives unofficially with crews from La Chapelle dépôt in Paris (the mpd that served Paris Nord) so he might well have driven a Crampton, and would certainly have been familiar with them. He published La Bête Humaine in 1890. By all accounts the impressionist painter Monet was also a frequent unofficial footplate visitor at St Lazare station in Paris in the 1870's. So the cutting edge technology of the time caught the interest of artists and intellectuals. Not a lot of people know that! as Michael Caine might have said 😁

[@saucypan-8796]

My first lego steam train that I named Robert has it driving wheels under the cab and behind the firebox so Robert is a crampton

[@TX200AA]

Germany had quite a few Crampton locomotives. In fact with 135 it had more than any other country as described in M Sharman's book. The most surprising Crampton of all was the Chemin de Fer L'Est number 604 which was formerly PLM number 22 La Belgique. This engine was fitted with as twin drum Flaman boiler and displayed at an 1889 exhibition in Paris alongside locomotives from Britain. A speed trial afterwards, this strange and ungainly locomotive set a world speed record of just under 90mph.

[@ilike_trainzzero2402]

Amazing

[@eduardobarrezueta5247]

I love all the steam locomotives but the crampton is my favourite. I love it so much, that was my preferee at TRAIN STATION THE GAME ON RAILS. Btw i only saw it working twice on KZbin; a small part on a german documentary that is in castelian spanish about the german rail company and the other one was a french small journal/documentary from the 1960's.

[@nicholaskelly6375]

I would have loved to have seen the amazing 6-2-0 'LIVERPOOL' ! Interestingly the only surviving locomotive designed by Mr Thomas Crampton built by Horlock for the 4' gauge Padarn Railway in North Wales 'FIRE QUEEN' is frameless and the four wheels were mounted virtually at the ends of the boiler! Whilst the other Padarn locomotive 'JENNY LIND' was scrapped in 1886. The 'FIRE QUEEN' was bricked up into a shed in Llanberis and not liberated until the late 1960's!

[@williamhoward2731]

I wish to thank you for sharing this awesome & Historical video with me .

[@tonywolton]

I am fascinated by the history of early steam locomotives, and how rapidly they evolved from 1804 to the 1840s from slow moving wagon pullers to engines capable of speeds up to about 60 or more miles per hour. My point here being the plight of the locomotive crews, not of course just the Cramptons, but many other types also, who had to work on a footplate totally exposed to the elements. Can you imagine what it must have been like in the dark, temperatures below freezing and sleeting or snowing to boot, and the train for an hour or two averaging speeds about 40 mph? They must have been made of tough stuff back then.....

[@AnthonyDawsonHistory]

I've done it with the replica of Planet in authentic (or as authentic as it can be) kit. White fustian trosuers, short jacket, cap, overcoat. You get very cold and very wet. But, that's what people were used to. Stage Coach drivers and Stage Coach guards got cold and wet; Mail Coach drivers likewise. Railway guards used to sit on the roof, so they got wet. Passengers of stagecoaches sat on the cheap seats on the roof - same as travellers going third-class who had either open topped carriages, or open toppers with no seats and stood. Not neccssarily "made of tough stuff" but it was considered normal. Transport occupations were an outside job. Travelling often meant travelling outside. And indeed many engine drivers into the 20th century were opposed to putting cabs on engines. Even in the 1940s -1960s at the very end: you still have small industrial locos trundling about with only a weather board and old drivers who didn't want a cab. Most of the "Quarry Hunslets" in North Wales didn't get cabs until the preservation era.

[@tonywolton]

I did have in mind drivers of stagecoaches and outside passengers etc, I just wanted to get the ball rolling. @@AnthonyDawsonHistory

[@Ronnymikkonen2686]

It was fun to listen. Amazing locos.

[@johannnunweiller9634]

Thank you for details!

[@AnthonyDawsonHistory]

My pleasure!

[@yemmel9761]

Interesting but strange locomotives

[@nigelmitchell351]

Considering how little weight is carried over the driving axle the Cramptons success is amazing.

[@AnthonyDawsonHistory]

The tenders were semi-rigidly coupled making an articulated machine so that extra weight for the drivers was added by the tender.

[@nigelmitchell351]

@@AnthonyDawsonHistory Thank you interesting I wonder how they did that ? With the changes in weight as the tender unloaded ?

[@Tom-Lahaye]

Very sleek looking machines, and achieving speeds that were like breaking the sound barrier for us in the 1850s. But the main drawback why they fel out of use was their poor adhesion, with most of the weight on the carrying wheels rather than on the driving axle (probably less than 15 tons adhesive weight on a 40 ton locomotive). As trains got heavier from 1870 onward they lacked the tractive effort to cope with them

[@AnthonyDawsonHistory]

Indeed they were but it's also worth remembering that the tenders were close-coupled and almost permanently coupled to them, rather like Edward Bury's little singles, so that they made in effect an articulated unit, where weight of the tender also contributed to some weight on the driving wheels. But yes after 1870 they fell out of fashion due to increasing train weight; some were displaced to secondary routes and remained as tender engines whilst others were converted to tank engines for use on commuter trains etc.

[@frankdestefano5697]

One of my personal favorite 19th century designs, such an impressive machine and so good looking! I guess it also reminds me of home a bit, as the earliest 4-2-0's here in the states had a very similar arrangement but with a swiveling bogie. Our first 4-2-0, John Jervis's "Experiment" for the Mohawk and Hudson looks incredibly similar to Mr. Crampton's design. I'm very surprised the Cramptons didn't achieve wider appeal in the UK as they did abroad.

[@AnthonyDawsonHistory]

I think it was because of the innate Conservatism of the British railways even by that point. If something broke away from the Stephenson locomotive it was new, untested, dangerous. The reports of rough riding don't appear in e.g. France or damage to the track. We're going to look at the first mainline UK bogey locomotive in a coming up video :-)

[@mikebrown3772]

There was a certain enthusiasm for speed with light weight trains on British lines in the 1840s, the heady days of the gauge wars and the Railway Mania, but the fallout from the latter and the dubious financial acrobatics of the likes of George Hudson and Captain Huish resulted in a desperate need for economy rather than speed. Even the Great Western with Gooch's huge 8ft singles made a fairly pedestrian progress down to Bristol for many years. When competition did arise it usual ended in a mutual agreement for increased journey times. So there wasn't the requirement for the high speed that was the Crampton's selling point in this country

[@17473039]

I very much look forward to these videos, incredibly informative and well researched!

[@crazypickles8235]

This was really neat!

[@lautanbintangempatlima8350]

YES crampton locomotive, and wheres the music? I like em

[@brucebigglesworth9532]

Thank you for rekindling my interest in early locomotives and the ingenuity of their designers. Your video on the 'Cramptons' has led me to wonder if you will be covering the work of William Buddicom, another British locomotive engineer more appreciated in France. Also, will you be covering Robert Stephenson's long boiler locomotives which were another approach to increasing steaming capacity without unduly raising the centre of gravity

[@AnthonyDawsonHistory]

Your wish is granted: kzbin.info/www/bejne/jJ-vYWiAfrqohLc kzbin.info/www/bejne/nn6aqaubYq2Er6c

[@brucebigglesworth9532]

@@AnthonyDawsonHistory Many thanks - I look forward to the return of normality so I can vist her at the Science Musem

[@eirinoshrinestudio8098]

I honestly like the french accent

[@JohnGeorgeBauerBuis]

Finding out that the initial plans for Crampton designs used large carrying wheels in front helps explain the thinking behind the otherwise bizarre Crampton tank-engine variant with a driven axle at each end and six carrying wheels in the middle.

[@rudigerwillnat5265]

In my opinion the best and completest description of the Crampton locos is written 1909 by F. Gaiser, sorry it's in German. It's include a formidable listing of all 320 built Crampton patente Locos. I miss in your Video any mentioning of the 135 Locos build for German Railways.

[@PowerTrain611]

4:48 I guess you could say the footplate was a little "Cramped in" Crampedin Crampton I'm so sorry, I had to do it.

[@AnthonyDawsonHistory]

Well done. :D :D :D

[@SBCBears]

No! No you didn't. 😄

[@PowerTrain611]

@@SBCBears I did, and to revise my statement, I'm NOT sorry. LOL!

[@RichardSawyer-ok7ov]

One thing that Mr. Dawson had forgotten to mention was the Cramptons tractive effort wich was not incredibly high but was well enough for their time, usually ranging between 2,000 to 4,000lbs of force with the highest being on the Liverpool with over 8262lbs of force. This was due to thier poor adhesion with the single driving axle behind the firebox and most of the bulk carried on the leading wheels.

[@AnthonyDawsonHistory]

however, it is also worth pointing out that given how the tender was coupled to the locomotive, rather like Edward Bury's four-wheelers, they became a semi-permanently coupled articulated unit which meant that weight from the tender was also available for adhesion :-)

[@steamandsmoke97]

One of my favorite 19th Century Designs! Excellent work mate! I've actually been thinking of building a Coal Fired Live Steam Model of one in either Gauge 1 or 3.5" Gauge.

[@uniquely.mediocre1865]

I've been looking forward to this video, there's just something about those Cramptons that make them so elegant

[@AnthonyDawsonHistory]

Oh they really are.

[@jasonwhitler4167]

This is an Amazing channel! I'm happy to be here early. Have fun getting 100k subscribers!

[@AnthonyDawsonHistory]

Thanks so much!

[@retrogamelover2012]

You know, given that this locomotive didn't do as well in the UK, as it did in other parts of Europe, due to how brittle the standard rails were built, and how Brunel's broad guage was essentially made to circumvent the problem, as well as give way to high-speed travels, I kind of wonder why Brunel or other folks who were in charge of the GWR didn't reach out to Crampton, to see if his design would fare better on a broad guage line, compared to more conventional lines. Kind of seemed like a golden opportunity, to basically create another potential selling point of the broad guage railways (as well as possibly something that could be made as a case for essentially preserving the guage, during the whole discussion regarding main line guages, considering how narrow guages were still used, after broad guage was phased out), aside from the wider bases and improved centre of gravity and balance potentially paving way for engines with a more squat-like design, to be used in places with low-hanging ceilings or bridges.

[@toyotaprius79]

A modern build crampton with added electric drive and rechargeable batteries would be pretty sick. Hell, any steam propulsion for high speeds and electric propulsion for starting and regenerative braking would be cool to see, if not low hanging fruit

[@simonf8902]

The French loved it so much it became : Le Crampton !

[@owenmeschter9888]

This was a wonderful episode, I got a great insight into this very creative and very interesting locomotive. Thanks for making such a detailed video!

[@ricktownend9144]

Thank you very much for this - loads of interesting detail that I didn't now before.

[@kalvinchester4068]

Its strange seeing other engines that tried to top this engine. Such as Norris's 6-2-0 Crampton style engine, and the L'aigle. And possibly the stirling single

[@vsvnrg3263]

excellent

[@CaptBubble]

Nice one, thanks. Some Cramptons bear a resemblance to traction engines, though not quite as much as the Aveling and Porter locos

[@DiegoLiger]

Just imagine the flywheel on a Crampton tho! ;-)

[@marcamant7258]

Keep the pressure

[@srgmiller340]

Funnily enough I have a static model of the Crampton I was hoping to motorise it

[@AnthonyDawsonHistory]

Let me know how that goes!

[@srgmiller340]

@@AnthonyDawsonHistory Will do It may take a while

[@absinthefandubs9130]

Seems like insomnia does pay out. 1am and another Anthony Dawson video is online. Last time I was this early George Stephenson was reflecting on how to construct a functioning fire tube boiler.

[@cr10001]

Now if you articulated a Crampton, with big driving wheels each end and a low-slung boiler between, you would get - a Garratt!

[@josephbroom829]

Absolutely brilliant video! I've always been fascinated by early steam locomotive and this series you're producing is amazing! I love it! Really appreciate the historical research! And the Cramptons in particular are just incredible locomotives! So pioneering! Shame that none were preserved in the UK. Thank you again. P.S. Do you think you'll do a video on the SER 'Jenny Lind' locomotives?

[@malcolmtaylor518]

Never really understood why we British couldn't get on with Cramptons. The French seemed to like them, and they must have been relatively trouble free for them. The poor old South East and Chatham hated theirs. I suspect it was the essential nature of early British railways to be over cost conscious and penny- pinching. The SE&CR was poor from the start and probably needed heavier duty rails, since they complained of rough riding and damage to the track, and quickly rebuilt them to 2-4-0's. If you ever get the opportunity in these mad covid times, try and get to the Crampton tower museum in Broadstairs, as they have excellent material and displays on Cramptons locos.

[@frasermitchell9183]

from Fraser, husband of Leslie Of course the problem with a low-slung boiler is its restricted diameter, thus restricting the possible power output which depends on steam raising. Interesting engine, though !

[@AnthonyDawsonHistory]

Cramptons had some of the biggest boilers in the period and certainly the largest heating surfaces of the period - larger even than the Broad Gauge locos! So they weren't that resctricted in steam raising and power output.

[@superstepno835]

I see a model of one crampton in the gorkawaskaya kinder railway on the display this crampon has cab

[@AnthonyDawsonHistory]

Thats very interesting! Thank you

[@manfredatee]

That Danish Crampton looks almost like a childs drawing of a locomotive with all the extra wheels and the little house for a cab.

[@AnthonyDawsonHistory]

That's the Camden and Amboy Crampton in the United States, which was mentioned. Bizarre looking thing.

[@manfredatee]

@@AnthonyDawsonHistory Oh, got it. Bizarre indeed.

[@dennissmelly9599]

Very good production. How about a video on Timothy Hackworth ?

[@1258-Eckhart]

Thanks so much for this, one of my request slots. They were indeed the very first TGV's, England's response was I suppose the GNR Stirling singles (the first HST's).

[@kylekinkade9211]

Now I know where Thomas the Train comes from.

[@tooleyheadbang4239]

Thomas the TRAIN?

[@tnais]

This page does not require a lot of German, Anthony, Erste is first, and Schnellzuglokomotive is a Fasttrainlocomotive :). The first one in Bayern, preserved in DB Museum in Nürnberg. www.dbmuseum.de/museum_en/phoenix-2615842 I have to check with my fellows, but I think that there were no Cramptons in Italy.

[@tnais]

There are very vague references of (imported) Crampton locomotives running in Italy, even a picture here www.viagginellastoria.it/archeoletture/trasporti/1939locomotive_file/image004.jpg.

[@AnthonyDawsonHistory]

@@tnais Thankyou. I am contemplating a book on them. The defacto text on the matter is in German.

[@AnthonyDawsonHistory]

even my GCSE German could read that web page :)

[@matteomarmiroli1713]

Hmm i always liked the Cramptons

[@RailPreserver2K]

Do you think you could do a video covering the general and Texas they're two american-built steam locomotives which were built in the early 1850s and are very famous for a civil war incident involving the two of them, both locomotives are preserved

[@cncshrops]

Splendid!

[@minbannister3625]

Allow me to introduce my heavily oiled friend le compte tolouse Moriarty.

[@Petelmrg]

Seeing one pass at 100kph in the day must have inspired thousands of wannabe engine drivers!

[@johnd8892]

I was glad to see the Crampton coverage. However let down by showing pictures that are different to what Country is being talked about. Causing some confusion in the comments, so likely more existing.

[@nicholas2198]

Whoohoo

[@ralphbalfoort2909]

Why were there no counterweights on the drivers? It's no wonder they were rough riders.

[@AnthonyDawsonHistory]

Crampton was one of the first engineers to recognise the need to balance the various reciprocating masses and was amongst the first to introduce balance weights on the driving wheels. Crampton locomotives were very steady runners thanks to their long wheel base. There's a lot of rumour they were rough riders, but that comes primarily from Britain. Whilst early "monster" Cramptons like "Liverpool" with its incredibly long fixed wheel-based may have damaged the track on curves as a result, the de-facto book on the Crampton Locomotive describes them as being stable runners and capable of high speed. I've not seen anything in European literature to suggest they were rough riders.

[@XanthinZarda]

So you covered the history of track, but what about the matter of the gauge conversion? Given the different railways had different gauges yet were still connected in many cases, it wouldn't seem efficient to just _stop and switch stock?_

[@edwardsadler7515]

Changing trains mid-route because of different gauges caused delays and chaos. There is a well-known contemporary cartoon of 1846 showing an (admittedly exaggerated) scene at Gloucester station, highlighting the public complaints - see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Break_of_gauge#/media/File:Break_of_gauge_GWR_Gloucester.jpg . The Great Western Railway decided to abandon its broad gauge track and standardise on the common 4 feet 8.5 inches used elsewhere, but it took them nearly 50 years to accomplish this!

[@josephsellarslesacelier2742]

i hav many crampton ancestrs=== it s a small village en route in kent frm canterbury to dover on th channel betwn england an france i like horse an buggy an bicycle-- mor simpl

[@turkeytrac1]

To bad liege didnt hit 88 mph

[@AnthonyDawsonHistory]

She could have come back to the future

[@neiloflongbeck5705]

Have you ever seen any of Mike Sharman's models of the railways of the early railways?

[@AnthonyDawsonHistory]

Only on youtube. He is before my time.

[@Petelmrg]

@@AnthonyDawsonHistory - they were like little jewels; a 4mm/ft model of the early locos were so small and he got them to work beautifully, even more amazing considering he had to make virtually everything from scratch. They were a joy to behold - I don't know what became of them.

[@haroldpearson6025]

So much engineering but with little consideration for the comfort of the footplate crew😕

[@AnthonyDawsonHistory]

Stage Coach drivers and Guards had had no protection from the weather, so protecting locomotive crews was thought unnecessary. It was also thought that if the locomotive crews were too mollycoddled they wouldn't be alert on the job. In the UK engine cabs were very spartan - they didn't even have seats until the C20th. The only company to really break the mould was the old North Eastern who had big American style cabs - but then again they were run by Quakers and their loco designer had spent a couple of years in the states. Then again, there's so much going on in an engine cab, there's honestly no time to take a breather to sit down. And, a fully enclosed cab whilst nice in winter, is absolute torture in the summer.

[@ironhorsethrottlemaster5202]

Please check out a channel called machine sinking I know you will enjoy it this is very cool listening to a French rail fan and that can speak English this guy emotional thinking loves French engineering but he does not know how to speak French he is hobby Machinist that loves doing documentaries on the Industrial Revolution but he doesn't really know anything about railroads and locomotive like we do maybe you could do some cross collaboration peace out into the world have a great day

[@DiegoLiger]

I'll give them a watch :-)