Those Great Locomotives - LNER P2

What perhaps are the most talked about Gresley locomotives that were not Pacifics... For most of their lives. The London & North Eastern Railway class P2, built entirely for work in Scotland, had a rocky life, from the very first member running hot during tests to the very last days working express freights under British Railways ownership. But has their reputation preceded them...
A huge thank you to Ian MacCabe of the Gresley Society and Sophie Bunker-James from the A1 Trust. Mister MacCabe gave me permission to use the Society’s wonderful archive photographs of the original P2, and even sent in his own colourisation of some photos. Without Ms Bunker-James I would not have known where to start digging, and she very kindly showed interest in the video itself.
SOURCES AND CREDIT:
The Gresley Society - www.gresley.org/
The A1 Steam Locomotive Trust - www.a1steam.com/
The black and white photographs of the LNER P2: courtesy of The Gresley Society
The colourised images of the LNER P2 / A2/2 copyright: Ian MacCabe - [e-mail]
Image of A2/2 60503 'Lord President' at Doncaster station - commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Doncaster_railway_station_geograph-2261727-by-Ben-Brooksbank.jpg
Image of A2/2 60505 'Thane of Fife' at York - commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:LNER_Thompson_Class_A2/2s_on_the_East_Coast_Main_Line#/media/File:York_Locomotive_Yard_with_A2-2_Pacific_geograph-2827807-by-Ben-Brooksbank.jpg
Image of A2/2 60506 'Wolf of Badenoch' on an express - commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:LNER_Thompson_Class_A2/2s_on_the_East_Coast_Main_Line#/media/File:Woolmer_Green_with_King's_Cross_-_Glasgow_and_Aberdeen_express_geograph-2828920-by-Ben-Brooksbank.jpg
Image of 'Mons Meg' (Public Domain) - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mons_Meg#/media/File:MonsMeg.JPG
Image of Edward Thompson - Courtesy of LNER Encyclopedia
Image of Nigel Gresley - Courtesy of LNER Encyclopedia
Image of O.V.S. Bullied (Public Domain) - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Bulleid#/media/File:Oliver_Bulleid_1947.jpg
LNER Encyclopedia - www.lner.info/
Map of the Aberdeen Road route (Public Domain) - commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rail_map_Scotland_Edinburgh-Aberdeen_line.png
Railway Mania PODCAST Ep.5 - Edward Thompson, Hero or Villain? (with Simon A.C. Martin) - kzbin.info/www/bejne/d6S8Z3SNarmmZpo
Unless stated otherwise in either the video or the description, footage and photographs are my own work.
External offline sources used:
'The Great Book Of Trains' by Brian Hollingsworth & Arthur Cook, published by Salamander Books Ltd;
'British Locomotive Classes' by Michael Harris, published by Ian Allan Ltd;
'Steam Finale Scotland' by Brian J. Dickson, published by Ian Allan Publishing;
'The Observer's Book of Railway Locomotives of Britain' by H. C. Casserley, published by Frederick Warne & Co. Ltd;
''Winston Churchill' And The Bulleid Pacifics' by Rob Adamson and Chris Nettleton, published by Friends of the National Railway Museum.
LINKS
Discord server - discord.gg/PtekEPJ
Twitter - TeaWithCaramel1
Outro music: Kevin MacLeod - Fiddles McGinty
(Fiddles McGinty by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 licence. creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/
Source: incompetech.com/music/royalty-free/index.html?isrc=USUAN1400051
Artist: incompetech.com/ )
Channel icon by - lookitstrainart
#LNER

[@FlyingScott]

I'm never doing an episode that's 21 minutes ever again, the raw recording was 1,5 hours of me mouth breathing. Anyway, here are more links to the Gresley Society and the A1 Trust! The Gresley Society - www.gresley.org/ The A1 Steam Locomotive Trust - www.a1steam.com/

[@awesome-xk8vj]

Can you do BR Class D16/2, LMS Fell Diesel, and BR 11001 please.

[@DDJP]

Been looking forward to this one, nice work Scott!

[@stephendavies6949]

Can't wait to see PoW up & running. An excellent video

[@finlayfraser9952]

Very interesting. Thomson is almost always painted a a villain, destroying Gresley's magnificent machines out of personal animus. I can certainly remember the nameplates of Cock of the North , and Mons Meg on the locomotives of trains I travelled on in the late 50's and early 60's. The Princess Royals are often touted as the most powerful locos, but Wikipedia figures disprove that in favour of the P2s, being only slightly behind the LMS Garrets, 40K, 43k and 45k ft/lbs respectively.

[@robw7676]

Tractive effort is only theoretical. Princess Coronation class 6234 Dutchess of Abercorn was measured by dynamometer car averaging over 2000 and peaking at 2500 drawbar horsepower whilst hauling a 600+ ton 20 coach express unaided up the WCML. That makes the big lizzies the most powerful British steam locomotives full stop. Even the mighty BR 9Fs never got close to 2500 drawbar horsepower when measured, more like 2000.

[@rogerwatt3154]

@@robw7676 Spot on, Rob . . . saved me the trouble of writing that.

[@rogerwatt3154]

There's a lot of evidence now that Thomson was not the villain that he was painted by Gresley devotees such as Cecil J Allen. If you watch the Railway Mania podcast #5 (it's over 90 mins long), the evidence suggests that all his so called atrocities against the P2s and Great Northern were totally justified on the grounds of maintenance, economic and/or performance issues. As an admirer of Gresley, this came as quite an eye-opener for me.

[@the_autism_express]

To be honest, after hearing about the issues with the P2 class, I think Thompson rebuilding them into the A2/2s was a good decision I'll probably be "cAnCeLlEd" for that, but I fail to see why I should care

[@BLUERENI777]

still one of my all time favorite steam locos of all time

[@mikesanders5433]

A brilliant video Flying Scott, well done 👏🏻 On the one hand it’s such a shame Gresley and Thompson never got the chance to rectify the issues with the original P2’s (thicker crank, the V2 pony etc) but then we have a new one which will in the next couple of years be making a mockery of the U.K.’s fearsome inclines 🙂

[@Backwardlooking]

Compliments for your technical knowledge and explanation. As a boy in the 1950’s I was fascinated by pictures of all of these obscure locomotives which had very little explanatory information. 👍🏻🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

[@robertcharlessceats3647]

An excellent and highly informative video. Although I'm English, I thoroughly enjoyed the Scottish accented narrative. A nice touch and thank you kindly

[@roberthuron9160]

In the US,the Mikados/MacArthurs[UP],were used in both Passenger and Freight service,and there were two versions that the USRA( United States Railroad Authority,a WW1operation) designed,and they were multiplied many times over! Now the major difference for the P2's was the use of cast steel frames,and the use of slab frames,ala,the DR/DB(German railways),if Gresley had used that type of framing,and most importantly RADIAL AXLEBOXES,the problems would have definitely alleviated,and working on the road,would have been more consistent! Note please,that the PRR,SP,and UP,plus other railways routinely ran their Mikados on steeper gradients,and tighter curves,than the GNR had! So,if Gresley had taken the hints from US roads,as he had designed the A1,A2's after the PRR K4,and really could have followed through on the equivalent 2-8-2's,i.e.L1's,the problems encountered would never have existed! Anyway,an alternative history,or might have been! Thank you for your attention ☺️! ☺️

[@IndustrialParrot2816]

thats what i was saying and the Great Northern Railroad of the US which a whole army of 2-8-2s had them working all up and down montana

[@SouRwy4501Productions]

One of the LNER’s precursors was also called the Great Northern. It was very different from the US great northern. The UK great northern didn’t have similar operating procedures or similar whistles to the US great northern. The US GN used medium bell 5 chimes while the UK GN used what would become known as the LNER bell whistle. Imagine if the p2 had a GN 5 chime.

[@roberthuron9160]

@@SouRwy4501Productions Thanks for your interest,and there is a namesake engine,very much operating[thank you],on the Tennessee Valley Railroad,and just happens to be a Southern Railway,Mikado,numbered 4501,so now if you ever get to Tennessee,you've got an excuse to see a rather glamorous engine!! Also see VIRTUAL RAILFAN,on KZbin,as they show the museum,and the NS trackage that goes by it!! Thank you for your attention ☺️ 😊 🙂 🙏 😌 😘 ☺️!

[@rogerwatt3154]

Excellent post . . . my only comment is that the P2s were built to work on the Edinburgh to Aberdeen line, the curves of which were pretty tight for a 2-8-2.

[@roberthuron9160]

@@rogerwatt3154 I made a minor mistake- the USRA,was actually the Administration,not Authority! Dumh,and faulty memory! Thank you for your attention ☺️!

[@martinhall60]

Well done,a very interesting and informative video indeed. This was an amazing video, in history and technology. I look forward to many more. Thank you.

[@nielsleenknegt5839]

Actually, Sir Scot, The Peppercorn A1 was not an itaration of an A3. The lineage (As heard on the podcast RWM with Simon A.C. Martin) goes more like this: P2-> get rebuild into thompson A2/X as well as new build A2/3, that was inproved by Peppercorn with his A2 and that design was improved by his A1 class (tornado)

[@IndustrialParrot2816]

still smaller than the other P2 from the great northern railroad of the US witch was a 4-8-2 that dragged trains like the empire builder over the montana rockies and over other steep grades all over the system

[@neilsonthefurnessn199]

Finally you made the video I've been waiting for

[@Lamp_2155]

Yeeessss I love the p2s. Got a hornby one for £80 last year But we’ll be getting a real one soon...😉

[@justandy333]

I just had to pause it at 10.30 . That picture of 2006 'Wolf of Badenoch' just looks beautiful. All that raw power and pressure contained within, an incredible example of what the Engineers and metal workers of Great Britain could achieve, yet they still managed to make them look absolutely gorgeous. If I was in charge of the P2 locomotive trust, I'd be making one of these.

[@nielsleenknegt5839]

Its actually the A1 locomotive trust, and they're building one. I think its to be more like 2001, looks wise, but they will get it done, as they did with Tornado.

[@robertwilloughby8050]

Re Gresley being unwell. It's true that Gresley was suffering with stress and had what he thought to be minor heart problems, but his death came as a complete surprise.

[@Mekaniskidiot]

i was here in Edinbrugh last week and i really enjoyed it

[@laurenceskinnerton73]

Brilliant!

[@belchnasty]

Love it!

[@AndrewTheRocketCityRailfan4014]

Where did you find all this amazing info from about the P2’s and A2/2’s? It’s incredible just how neutral and understanding it is.

[@lukegreen5341]

1:27 It's Flying Scotsman. Thanks Mate. X

[@emilioi.valdez6680]

Say Scott, think you can do a video on the mad quadraplex locomotive that used a variation of Franco-Crosti boiler that Belgium created?

[@chrisdavies3913]

Can't wait to see the new build Prince of Wales, I believe there are some size differences compared to the originals.

[@warrenlehmkuhleii8472]

This is from my knee jerk reaction, and I am by no means an expert, so take this with a grain of salt. Double heading with two A1s would have been ridiculous expensive, double the coal consumption of small engines is bad, but depending on the type, the locos may not exceed the coal usage of one Pacific. So doubling heading on that scale probably would not have been tried unless it was the only way. Plus, there were only 78 of A1/A3s by the end of their production, which is a lot, but having regular double heading means you have to double the allocation of A1s to the Edinburgh to Aberdeen route, and they were needed elsewhere. Once again, I don’t know if these are the correct reasons for not trying it, and I don’t know if express passenger locos of that size ever double headed.

[@robertbalazslorincz8218]

3:41 apparently there was an incident (not sure if on the LNER) where two trains passing each other taking on water via troughs somehow caused water to break the cab window, injuring the fireman.

[@FlyingScott]

Indeed, this incident occurred between two A4s. Tragically the fireman was killed, which is why Thompson disliked the angled window design.

[@nielsleenknegt5839]

This was when Thompson was CME, or just buefore. I've just listened to the Podcast mentioned in the video, and it was stated this was one of the first thing he dealt with as CME i think.

[@SaltyVan]

I watch the video I finish the video Ya know what I do? I FUCKING WATCH IT AGAIN

[@barry5787]

Maybe you could throw some light on why they could not reduce the train for that section? Great video many thanks.

[@Dustinthemaroon9Flocomotive]

I like the lner P2 class because they where use for heavy express passenger trains and my favorite lner heavy goods engine is the lner Q6

[@Station_Master_13]

Remind me why the A1 trust is bringing these back?

[@maximike9182]

Hi! When do you do a video about the Magnificent Reid Atlantics?

[@neilsonthefurnessn199]

Can you talk about the SNCF super pacific types after the VR R class and NYC J series Hudson's

[@johnarnehansen9574]

This should definatley be rebuilt for the sake of preservation! ;)

[@neiloflongbeck5705]

What's so funny about the Chief of the Gordon Clan?

[@NW-gi1cp]

I might get a model of the p2 one day

[@patrickwinn9700]

In my day we called them Streaks, Blinks and the racehorse class eg Malard, Union Of South Africa, Trigo respectively.

[@ncs8730]

5:44 It's strange but there is another loco which had this name for some time. And its wheel arrangement is 2-10-0 and not 2-8-2 like here!

[@MilkDrinker218]

Now I know this video is over a year old, but the P2s are… how do you say… a *glass cannon?* Powerful, but… fragile. Given the fact one of them is named after a cannon I think it’s especially pertinent.

[@mlp-hot-rod5824]

Actually, Doncaster Works are building another P2 as well. Also, I wonder why the rebuilt W1 wasn't made in mass. At least after other mods were applied. Who knows? Maybe Darlington will tackle that after the next few projects.

[@TallboyDave]

Which name though? "British Enterprise", or "Pegasus"?

[@joelwatkins]

@@TallboyDave I think they're making Cock O' The North (mark 2)

[@russellgxy2905]

One of the two classes that my old computer account wouldn't allow me to look up becuase of Child Restrictions lol The other class being the V4 for those wondering

[@levidarling5107]

Well if they are bringing back what was a failures yet upgraded to a success, I’ve yet to see a society bring back an e2 tank engine. Anyone else like that?

[@Barracudo11109]

What sir what music at the beginning of the video?

[@FlyingScott]

That would be "True Scotsman's Call"

[@YukariAkiyamaTanks]

The only Mikado express locomotives in the world i believe

[@neilsonthefurnessn199]

There were 2 classes of express mikado's in Poland and 3 in Germany

[@Yorkshire_trainspotter]

Hey just wondering what game you use in the background during the video?

[@FlyingScott]

That would be Train Simulator, also known as Railworks.

[@southerncoastproductions7587]

@@FlyingScott Do you know what the top speed of the P2s were?

[@LMS5935]

Do you personally believe that Thompson’s rebuilds of this class were better in terms of performance?

[@FlyingScott]

Does not matter if I think they were better; they prolonged the lives of the locomotives they once were.

[@LMS5935]

@@FlyingScott Fair…. But didn’t the Thompson rebuilds have frame issues?

[@rogerwatt3154]

I couldn't say re performance but allegedly better in terms of a) economy, b) reduced maintenance costs and c) less time off the road for repairs. That said, I loved the P2s and thought that Thomson's rebuilds were SO ungainly.

[@SouRwy4501Productions]

The LNER p2 seems like a good engine but it seems like it needed a mechanical stoker. They could have been way better that way. They also could have used a larger firebox. A good example of a proper mikado would be the Southern’s Ms class mikados. The p2 could have worked if it had 63” driving wheels instead of 74” diameter wheels. Roller bearings could reduce the amount of maintenance needs that they had

[@IndustrialParrot2816]

thompson seems ike he would have liked american railroads/locomotives

[@Nastyswimmer]

But why call it "Prince of Wales"? The originals were named after entities from Scottish history and literature - the title Prince of Wales isn't even recognised in Scotland.

[@FlyingScott]

Turns out people misunderstanding the P2s is not limited to their apparent "resounding success", not even their naming scheme is safe!

[@suzcant3320]

Play the Roblox game “plunge to the scrappy” and your find a Roblox version of Earl Marischal

[@Tsukunea]

SCOOOOTLAND

[@octopus1066]

at 18:40 when you were talking about the P2 what would have happened, I literally just laughed and made the joke to a friend. "Or give them to the US and Canadians and we'll show you how to make big 8 diver steam engines work without fail