Crash of a Piper PA-28-180 Cherokee at McKellar-Sipes Regional Airport, Tennessee (October 20, 2023)

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Aviation Accidents / NTSB Case Reviews

Күн бұрын

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@megadavis5377 3 ай бұрын

To all the newer pilots out there, please beware. I can't even begin to count the number approaches and landings I've completed over a 55 year span where the winds at the traffic pattern altitudes were up to 180 degrees and up to fifty knots of difference than what was being reported on the ground at the airports at the time. That's only one-thousand feet of vertical separation... You can usually expect the winds to begin shifting counter-clockwise as you get lower - but not always. Pay attention and get on that rudder!!

@ggeorge4144 3 ай бұрын

He landed on the nose wheel. I taught thousands of people to fly and made damn sure they could land in cross winds transitioning from a crab to the wing down into the crosswind and the nose high. Low wing planes are easier, I owned a Cherokee and a Piper Colt. I landed the Colt in Denver with a 50-60 knot wind with a 25 knot crosswind component. I had to use full throttle to make the runway. The minute I touched down there was a crew there that grabbed the plane and walked me to the tie down area before it got blown over. I had students that hated high winds, but I told them I will not sign you off for the test unless you can land in high winds. Most of today's students' problems arise from piss poor instruction.

@braveworld2707 3 ай бұрын

I remember landing in 23kt x-wind during my CPL training. Good fun but as a PPL all my training was in low wing and fair cacked myself with a 10kt x-wind in a C206. I had around 100 hours and has almost zero high wing x-wind technique. Got badly spoilt with a low wing trainer and 4 into wind runways.

@vboytan 3 ай бұрын

The same thing happened to me a few months ago. I had poor crosswind correction application after landing. It was good during the landing process but as soon as I was on the ground I’d go ailerons neutral. Don’t forget to put those ailerons into the wind even after you’re fully touched down. Basically what happened to me, and I think the same thing happened here is my upwind wing got lifted up and it caused me to be squirrelly on the roll out. I slammed the breaks and had a prop strike and runway excursion.

@SR-bh5jd 3 ай бұрын

When a $100 hamburger becomes a $100,000 hamburger.

@jimmydulin928 3 ай бұрын

Brakes rather than rudder was likely a startle move. He was fast, resulting in a small bounce. Getting on the brakes when still fast brought the nose down hard on the nose gear. The left main wheel skid on the runway was heavier than the right main wheel skid, but there was no need for braking as there was lots of runway ahead. Regardless of crosswind, he was down somewhat straight, perhaps a bit left but it is hard to know from the camera angle. Rudder only to correctly yaw/align would have taken care of touchdown longitudinal alignment and rudder control of nosewheel would have kept him going straight. Cherokees have a small brake fluid reservoir. Had his been completely empty, he would have done fine with just rudder control of alignment and then nose gear steering. Had arriving at ground level in three point attitude all slowed up and ready to squat (where have I heard that before?) been default, he would have learned rudder control for runway alignment as the nose gear would always be off at touchdown. Nor would brakes ever be needed on long runways. Why is ground speed so often higher in headwinds and headwind components of crosswinds? How does that math work? All slowed up and ready to squat, as Wolfgang emphasizes, means we are going slower in a headwind, perhaps even thirty or even twenty ground speed in a Cherokee. Vso is an out of ground effect number. We should touch down much slower than that in no headwind component, and much, much slower in a headwind component. It is hard to damage an airplane at 20 or 30 mph.

@Coops777 3 ай бұрын

Ouch! Quartering tail wind is my guess. If you have your wits about you in the heat of the moment, remember to put ailerons into the swerve and opposite rudder, away from the swerve. Credit to the pilot for not trying to go around after losing control.

@txkflier 3 ай бұрын

The airplane was repaired and is still flying.

@lindaschad9734 3 ай бұрын

Sure was an expensive lunch, though.

@Philscbx 3 ай бұрын

By chance, watched the landing?

@txkflier 3 ай бұрын

@@Philscbx I watched and read the whole thing. Then I looked up the tail number on FlightAware. The tail number has been flying a lot this year. I didn't verify the serial number though.

@Durandalski 3 ай бұрын

Looked to me even in the video like he relaxed back pressure, which caused the hard three point landing. I would also guess he had some left rudder in to counter the wind which meant the nosewheel was already turned left and caused the immediate swerve. I’m a low time private pilot myself so I won’t judge too harshly, but I think it’s important for folks like me to notice these mistakes and learn from them.

@jimmydulin928 3 ай бұрын

Yes, we can learn from the mistakes of ourselves and others. The extra airspeed is what started his problem. We have to be much slower than Vso, an out of ground effect number, to land in low ground effect. If you are near touchdown still so fast that elevator controls rate of descent (pulling will cause balloon), you are going too fast to be in a three point attitude all slowed up and ready to squat. And in the proper three point attitude, the nosewheel is not touching the surface. Yes, his did because he was too fast. In very strong headwind components we will be nearly level on touchdown and our airspeed will be faster than Vso perhaps, but our ground speed will be very, very slow. That is unless we add airspeed to compensate for gust spread or headwind component or whatever. This is not necessary. If we are slow enough to sink properly so that dynamic throttle (yes, you have to move it) controls glide angle and rate of descent, we will arrive (in a strong headwind component) at ground level with very slow ground speed (airspeed will still be high with the extra relative wind of the headwind component.) This need not, should not, be an unusual situation. Again, it is hard to damage airplanes going twenty or so ground speed. Use your license to learn only as a starting point and get out of ACS limitations. Learn the basic level in low ground effect takeoff, which is much more energy efficient than Vx or Vy. Learn to relax back pressure in turns so that dynamic neutral stability can function as designed to make turns of any bank angle 1 g. Wolfgang asks, "What does the ariplane want to do?" Go faster than you have been taught on takeoff so as to have more than a couple seconds to live if the engine fails. Go slower than you have been taught on landing using the throttle to exactly maintain glide angle and elevator to control only airspeed and not both airspeed and glide angle poorly. Read Stick and Rudder to learn the law of the roller coaster and how we need airspeed to get altitude on takeoff and go around and how we can use potential energy of altitude to trade for airspeed even when low. The airplane wants to maintain trimmed airspeed not altitude. The only time we should fight this safety feature is when we land. The problem there is that we cannot set a trimmed airspeed slow enough to quit flying in low ground effect. That would be dangerous up out of ground effect where this would cause stall. We have to work at making the airplane not fly just as we contact the surface. 1.3 Vso to the fence is fine if the fence is far back enough to get all slowed up and ready to squat on the beginning of the runway. Slowing enough to bring dynamic throttle into play, the power/pitch approach, eliminates the need for round out and hold off. This deceleration with full flaps should start at a quarterh mile out in a Cherokee or similar size airplane. A lawyer made the approach speed so high on the short wing Cherokee. He didn't understand how to use a dynamic throttle.

@tungstenkid2271 3 ай бұрын

To digress slightly, why do some pilots prefer low-wingers like the Cherokee instead of high-wingers like the Piper Cub?

@rwsavory 3 ай бұрын

There are advantages and disadvantages to both kinds. The major differences between aircraft do not relate to wing position. Some have a brand preference. If you like Cessnas you're flying a high wing, Beechcraft or Piper low wings. If you like to fly from grass or rough fields, a high-wing tail dragger is sometimes preferred.

@tungstenkid2271 3 ай бұрын

@@rwsavory Thanks, if i was a pilot i think i'd buy a high-winger because you get a clear view of the ground below, not obstructed by low wings..:)

@ozpilotgirl 3 ай бұрын

@@tungstenkid2271 High wing planes tend to have nastier stall characteristics(not all!) and with low wing, ground effect is more present

@HTN3 3 ай бұрын

Did everyone perish?

@industrieundtechnik1761 3 ай бұрын

Hä? He clearly pushed the yoke !

@Philscbx 3 ай бұрын

Hard to tell, frame by frame, but seems like theres a few frames missing, between 0:08 _ 0:11. I would go as far as the nose gear was damaged prior to this view we see. Which probably instigated this video in the first place to be taken. I've restored this type of hard nose gear crash - where nose gear strut has altered the firewall and everything connected, and its a brutal makeover. Fabricating a full stainless steel firewall, de-rivoting all the hidden structural components, from rudder pedals back to just behind the seats will take a few months. Last one restored similar was done in by the Civil Air Patrol, on a Bird Dog. When aircraft are operated like a cheap car rental, no ones fussy how they're treated. Sand & Gravel found deep at base of rudder pedals, might want to pick another ship vs fly a junkyard dog, with other hidden problems. Cheers and thank God those twenty years ago are history. Never was much a Piper fan. Always under powered and fat chord wings. Not the best combination, and poor visability.

@braveworld2707 3 ай бұрын

Funny but I liked the Piper and the Cessna even more but disliked Beechcraft single. All to their own I guess.

@Philscbx 3 ай бұрын

@braveworld2707 No airframe construction comes close to Beechcraft. Restored several down to bare skin, one can easily see triple the quality construction durability. Piper owners in mid eighties were forced to replace every inch of primary battery source cabling they used made of aluminum to copper. Clever weight savings, but poor safety where they could melt instantly if shorted to airframe. I saved some of it removed for projects making personal emergency jumper packs. Cessna's beyond 150's pretty hard to beat. 172's used as 2 place adult and light luggage is best option. 4 adults and fuel load is too near the edge. 172 Modified as bush pilot type with fat balloon tires as we did in Alaska is doable glacier hunting, gets interesting getting up over mountains. Some never return. Cheers

@braveworld2707 3 ай бұрын

@@Philscbx Sorry, I was commenting purely as a pilot and not about the strength or quality of the construction. My favorite Cessna had (to me) four *tiny* bolts attaching the wing to the fuselage that high G turns were threatening to shear off. Pipers on the other hand sat on the wing spar so in high turns the fuselage sat *on* the spar and fuselage was less likely to tear away from the wing. Yeah obviously I am not serious but to a new student pilot I had these thoughts before expanding my professional aviation knowledge. I regret not spending time working beside LAMEs and learning more about you side of the aircraft but I was always clamoring to have _slipped the surly bonds of Earth And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings._ I knew the Beech was a good aircraft but not how extra well made it was. I just didn't feel comfortable sitting in the damned things. My Cessna line with friends was Cessna pilots entered the aircraft like gentlemen, though doors and not by climbing over bloody wings. 😁 *Thank You* for adding to my aviation education even though I am now grounded. It shall always be interesting. You have a good one. 👍👍

@cpunut 3 ай бұрын

While watching I said out loud, "no buddy don't do that!". Oh well a hard lesson. I flew one of those for a bit.

@chwilliams5 3 ай бұрын

WHAT THE? Must be a newbie.

@sparky6200 3 ай бұрын

You can't land in a crab man... No one has pointed this out to you? The FAA does such a miserable job at evaluating people on PPL. Of all the exams, this is the one that needs to be 6-7 hours long.