Determinism vs Free Will: Crash Course Philosophy #24

[@whoami2100]

My decision to keep watching this video was determined by tomorrow's exam in philosophy

[@tadm123]

Yet you choose to watch it to get a good grade.

[@soysource768]

How did it go?

[@amenramuxikllc5658]

@@tadm123 and he or she choose to take the class...

[@dianaowusu6182]

Hahaha

[@Rustycan5639]

My decision to like your comment was because I laughed out loud when I read your comment, and whenever I have read comments and have laughed out loud in the past, I have liked those very comments. Checkmate Free-Willers.

[@r.s.j.studios]

If Oedipus had had a talk with his adopted parents, the entire story wouldn't have happened. That's why communication is important, kids.

[@sudeepjoseph69]

It would have happened anyways. You can't escape fate

[@Luxonv]

Sudeep Joseph Sirivella Imo if he had done anything else then it wouldn’t have happened but the point is that everything is determined so he never would have spoken to his parents

[@patrikwihlke4170]

@@Luxonv This is exactly the point many are missing :) It may all be reduced to the Anthropological Theory. The question with Oedipus is how the oracle knew...

[@theordinary1059]

@@sudeepjoseph69 no, it was impossible for him not to do what he did. Just like is impossible for me not to write this right now

[@adrianrobinson7144]

@@theordinary1059 while its possible for you to delete it.

[@anirlarchivist]

probably my favourite thing that has happened since starting university is the fact that my lecturers actually use Crash Course Philosophy and Psychology videos as aides in class.

[@arifzworld]

@Michael Enquist hehe

[@bernardalexander4526]

Quit school and come to KZbin then.

[@theflash9735]

OMFG THATS SOOOOOOOOO COOL!!!

[@gerrynightingale9045]

*And that devalues your 'Class' into meaningless psycho-jargon*

[@moodsmoody4936]

Crash course really simplifies things for people like me, but I think in college you should study them in depth and with more complexity

[@Casperski1312]

Ive been preaching hard determinism to my friends while stoned for years now and Im only just realizing I didn't come up with it.

[@maxrequisite]

Yeah I've thought about it before and figured out it was a famous idea

[@Casperski1312]

@@maxrequisite I used to think I was secretly a genius for it, but its more likely that determinism is simply a logical endpoint for modern scientific paradigms taught to us in school these days. We're probably just a couple of the relatively small number of people to think that deeply into philosophy without reading about it first.

[@SarahDarkhand]

Thanks for the existential crisis, Hank.

[@gamerN77]

Glad I'm not alone.

[@TheFoodtubers]

Actually it's a deterministic crisis.

[@samjohnson3287]

+overTIMe ditto

[@Shangori]

It really never bothered me. It doesnt change my feelings of happiness, anger or sadness. It just means that I was always meant to feel that way at that time. Also, the idea that there is no reason to do anything then, is determined as well. So, if you think it's useless, sure, it's useless. I'm _determined_ to experience as much as possible, no questions asked. Or to quote The Great Rick: Don't think about it.. ..eventho that would be determined as well

[@mickeynotmouse]

Shangori, you are a soft determinist.

[@harrison85]

“Alright! I’m gonna stop abiding by determinism!” “So what made you think that thought.”

[@Zoova]

O_O

[@carolinaaa-d4h]

There is no escaping everything. 😑

[@harrison85]

Well, just because the methods of picking your outcomes are chosen (for example: flipping a coin, asking a friend, or just doing it yourself) does not mean the outcomes are in your control. You chose to do said outcome, but to you, your friend picking strawberry for your side is random to you, however, not to her. Also, in determinism, you may have trusted the person enough to let them do the decision for you. Although your methods of outcomes may be random, the outcomes are random, at least to you.

[@jeromedevecais2751]

Bcause it chains

[@alejandromunoz463]

Just ask yourself "Why?" untill you get to the big bang

[@HabibChamoun]

Then you ask another why, and you get the supernatural uncaused cause, the infinite, wich you can call God

[@ramdaschakraborty1610]

There's no answer to why.

[@HabibChamoun]

@@ramdaschakraborty1610 You are breaking the law of non-contradiction , sir! Your answer to the question is quote on quote: "There is no answer." Absurd, right? 🤔🤔

[@arifzworld]

@@HabibChamoun God or Supernatural being or whatever... But yes, there was/is/has to be something. This episode and the episode on Divine command theory etc point out that God does exist.

[@ujjalshill6442]

God doesn't exist if you keep asking why

[@successfulfailure3272]

If we are determined, let's hope we are determined to greatness.

[@maxkemper1598]

This is so concise and coherent. I've always been fascinated by the debate of free will and, despite it being a very abstract and complex subject, Hank did an excellent job of explaining it with incredibly clarity.

[@bugjams]

“There is no escaping fate.” “...or is there?” *vsauce music starts playing*

[@TaunellE]

"There is No Fate but what we make" -Sarah Conner ❤

[@fuadadan5786]

Ah , a man of culture

[@farber2]

Fate determined by the properties of an object and by the circumstances an object finds itself in, other fate is prophecy.

[@루크앳미]

Most people are not likely to escape but definetely there is way out of the fate. Lapalce said that the future is predictable as long as precise location and momentum of all matter ia known. Unfortunately, it makes sense within macro world. In micro world based on quantum not classical mechanics, the location of electron in the future is random. It is because we cannot measure both the location and momentum of electron at the same time. More information and reasoning regarding determinism vs. Free will may refer to 'what determined our lives' trillogy in my channel.

[@j-dog7767]

But what is THERE? *vsauce Music intensifies*

[@TheMitchellWhite]

For some reason hard determinism has been playing on my mind a lot lately. It's like I now feel that my life is like a movie and the beginning and end has already been predetermined. It's like I now feel that all of my thoughts and ideas are now worthless and I'm just some machine that is a part of a much larger machine. Seriously! I am really depressed right now because of this.

[@zedwms]

If someone asked me if we live in a universe of determinism or free will, I would say yes.

[@docsspot1953]

Zed Williams yes. No doubt

[@darklogic6998]

If that statement is true, you are determined to say yes when presented that question.

[@kimhsamh7024]

I guess we will never know for sure. We feel like we have free will but when we try to logically prove that, we can't, what a conundrum!

[@aarontan2197]

Yes. Fate is true, there are just multiple times lines for each of the choices you made. Therefore yes.

[@Roiben100]

Are you saying Harambe HAD to die?

[@eeveedude632]

Its the only exception to determinism

[@pietrocelano23]

Yes, but bitching about it makes great memes!

[@Alexaflohr]

I understand this is a joke, but I enjoy killing jokes with gut-wrenching cynicism. Yes, that is exactly what determinism is claiming.

[@adnanaliable]

yes , dicks out for harambe.

[@Adam-wm4ys]

LMAO

[@fisharepeopletoo9653]

I think the point of oedipus is also self fulfilling prophecy. Its like that scene in the first matrix when neo goes to the oracle and she tells him to watch out for the vase, which he then bumps in turning to look to see what vase she was talking about. She then asks "Would you have bumped the vase if I never told you to watch out for it?"

[@MylesdaMullet]

"Yes, I have free will; I have no choice but to have it" - Christopher Hitchens

[@henrymatthews5809]

That statement is self refuting.!!!

[@vedranmiric7534]

@@henrymatthews5809 no.....its not

[@gomiladroogies5951]

I guess it was determined that someone would miss the joke woooooosh

[@hocuspocus3256]

The definition of Will (noun) is "the faculty by which a person _decides_ on, and _initiates_ action." A Decision (noun) is "a conclusion reached after consideration" which would imply some reasoning behind it. And Action doesn't need to be defined because typing this is an action. If I'm looking at this correctly, I think it's wise to assert that Will is the beginning of a chain of events that leads to an Action, such as writing this. However, what's left to ask is: When did that chain of events begin?

[@pottingsoil]

Man is condemned to be free.

[@AJBulava]

If we live in a deterministic world, why punish criminals for actions they cannot control?

[@bassfight2936]

If we feel free in doing what we do, does it even matter if all's determined?

[@acvarthered]

If you feel like you are walking on level ground does it even matter if you are about to walk off a cliff?

[@NefosG]

+acvarthered The difference in your analogy is that we can't EVER know that we're about to walk off a cliff. A perfect prediction of the future seems and probably is impossible, so while everything is determined, we can't ever access that until it already happened.

[@AsianCalamariSQ]

Very Matrix-esque. If it really, genuinely *feels* like it's real, does it matter if it isn't?

[@NefosG]

Simon WoodburyForget And there is a reason why we're locking them up.

[@NefosG]

Simon WoodburyForget More like lock them away so they can't do it again, but I can understand your point.

[@RechtmanDon]

"I recently failed my existentialism exam. Well, actually, my teacher made me fail."

[@adgharoussama7186]

Well, I guess your previous actions made you fail, sorry for you

[@Panda-kn6zo]

1:06 "one often meets His destiny on The path he takes to avoid it"

[@aljazkordic6287]

~Master Oogway

[@emieyebrows]

This is really fascinating to me. Philosophy is just such a interesting topic to talk about, all from moral dilemmas to things like this.

[@davidostos506]

Why doesn’t Oedipus like to curse? Because he kisses his mother with that mouth.

[@mauriciolinares1182]

R. Kayn 😐... 😆 nice

[@freepointsgals609]

Nice.

[@dokidelta1175]

Nice dude.

[@seanshack1872]

Lol😂😂😂

[@bluejay6904]

that actually made me chuckle. Thanks.

[@bnobston]

Whether we live in a deterministic world, or one with free will, it has no actual effect on the experience we have. You still get to choose every day what you do, it's just that whatever you choose it's what you always would have chose. If you choose bad, You always would have chosen bad. If you choose good, you always would have chosen good. So choose wisely.

[@gaston1484]

The weirdest thing about this is that I chose to see this video when I was eating oatmeal.

[@gaston1484]

@@kimhsamh7024 Oh! I'm sorry!

[@monsymont9139]

So turns out there’s a word for what I’ve been believing. I’m a determinist. I always get into discussions about “we don’t actually have free will we think we do but the choices we make is backed up by other thoughts and so on and so forth that lead us to “choose”” but people always fought me saying lno We do have free will because I chose this I could’ve chose the other thing “ but i’m like “but you chose it because of other factors.” I’m glad it led me to this I was watching something about solipsism and got here lol. I can just show this to people so they can stop fighting me. Thank you crash course

[@monsymont9139]

I didn’t get mad at this at all lmfao cuz turns out I already believed in it I was just agreeing the whole time HAHAHA.

[@Ggeg0000]

We can act on our desires but we do not chose our desires. Our desires come from our genes and experiences which shaped our personality which determine how we will act in every situation. Our genes were given to us without any choice on our part. Our experiences at least in our younger years were beyond much of our control since our parents had a big part in them. So the personalities we have we did not chose and yet we make all our decisions based on it

[@improvgenius2810]

Personality is a choice based on habits and rituals and its the very reason people can change. In fact, if you don't want to believe me then explain why sociopaths exist. Sociopaths are created but it is not a mental disorder. There are a lot of people in this world that let their parents be their main influence including I who decided to have their own interests in the future. Another thing is our brains are hardwired to tell us to play it safe and stick to what was familiar with. However, we adapt and evolve. Anyone can do what they want and the cold hard truth is the only thing holding them back is fear. Once you can get past that you can become the next Albert Einstein. So there really is no side to pick, it's rather what you make of it to be. It is the very explanation of why Albert Einstein became well known and did not go to college.

[@lennydelgado2501]

Sam Harris is that you ?

[@paulableier2305]

That is compatibalismus. Its when you belive that determinismus and free will are compatbal and can coexist in the same timeline.

[@andrewbart2515]

@@improvgenius2810 you disagree with the video I'm guessing. Also we adapt and evolve. How do we do that? Maybe that question could be answered the same way "what determines what decision we make". We make decision. We make decisions based on things. We are a brain. A brain takes information and processes it. The brain processes information depending on your experiences and what kind of brain you have. You take in information that is not yours, you use a brain that is not yours and make a choice with a mouth that is not yours. Which begs the question. What are you? Nothing.

[@roro-mm7cc]

we are just survival gene copying machines and genes program in things like pleasure and pain to control our behaviour so we do whats most likely to get the genes passed on. sex is the most pleasurable feeling for this reason - our genes program the orgssm to feel good so we are motivated to spemd huge amounts of effort and time to acheive this goal.. we are all slaves ut dont care because the slave work feels good. we should probably learn from how our genes control us and think about using this kind of system to control AIs so their consciousness enjoys working for us and feels connections/freindship toward us.

[@lumen8341]

I think the important thing to remember if you, like me, started feeling Determinism a long time ago but weren't sure how to rationalize it to yourself: you're a product of your genetics, your environment, your experiences, the people you happen to meet and the places you happen to go, but your experiences, feelings, and memories are very real and they are yours. :)

[@DaiKozui]

So if I'm a failure in life it's not my fault cause I didn't choose to be? Right? At least that's comforting...

[@MrHoeBow]

Reuben Taylor Well, the failing would be caused by a number of events which in turn is caused by a number of events. For example, you are poor because you were under educated because you went to a bad school because your parents lived in a poor region because they were were poor because they blew their lottery winnings too fast because they were poor at money management because they had never had great sums of money because they had worked minimum wage jobs because they were under qualified because they had a poor education because they went to a bad school and so on. I am excluding a number of other variables for simplicity, but the point is made. Also, if you aren't a failure, your successes are also not your doing.

[@anananwar]

Failure is infinitely more forgivable and hubris all the more unattractive.

[@nocucksinkekistan7321]

That's not comforting. Libertarian free will is comforting because if you're a loser you know at least you aren't a victim.

[@stacirivera799]

Lol i love you papi.

[@micahwright6008]

Right. And what's even more comforting is that in a parallel universe your not a failure in life instead your successful as a Bill Gates... Idk how many parallel universes parallel to this one where that is true though.

[@banmancan1894]

As a post-grad student of philosophy, I have to say this conversation goes way deeper than this video. Even some of the claims of the video (mind, body, the functioning of the universe) are based upon prior assumptions that affect the way the whole free will v. determinism is understood and thus I find it has an uneven take. However, this analysis probably comes from me overanalyzing a video that is intended to be a very basic look on this topic lol. P.S. those who like to fight over everything, don't @ me because I will ignore. Trying to get you trolls on a diet 😂👍.

[@TheRoodio]

If we don't choose our actions, how can we be held accountable for them?

[@marvinedwards737]

TheRoodio, If we don't choose our actions, how can we avoid holding people accountable?

[@TheRoodio]

Yes, you have a point. So basically it's determined that the murderer will commit his crime and that he will or will not go to jail. There's nothing we can do. Because we don't "do" anything per see. Things just happen.

[@marvinedwards737]

My point is that universal inevitability changes nothing. The final "prior" cause of our deliberate actions is still the thoughts and feelings we had that led us to that decision. The point of "holding responsible" is to identify what caused the harm we are trying to prevent so that we can correct that cause. Rehabilitation changes the prisoner's thoughts and feelings through counseling, addiction therapy, education, job training, post-release follow-up, and so forth. Determinism doesn't actually change anything. And those who think it does are wrong.

[@adense13]

+TheRoodio We *can* do something about it. It's just that it is already determined what we will do. There is, I think, no point in trying to apply determinism on morality. Mortality is a very abstract concept that is far removed from the more basic workings of the universe.

[@azark.973]

We choose - we only are determined too do so. We can decide to change our attitude or to act in an other way - but how we will have eventually acted, is sure. You can decide whether you kill that person or not, but your decision is based on everything that happened before. And think about it - if everything was random, wouldn't we be determined by this exact randomness?

[@goodtoseeya1543]

If you make something happen, it was already determined to happen that way. Don't be afraid to go out and chase your dreams and see if you were destined to live those dreams. Although free will is an illusion, it doesn't change that whatever you "make happen" is going to be your reality. If you fail, well, you were destined to fail. This leaves no guilt behind and would help you move on. This is good because I never seen anyone getting better off by holding onto pasts. Good philosophy!

[@tadm123]

You're smuggling a lot of free will action words in here. If you are determined then anything you do doesn't matter, you will end up at the same conclusion that if you tried or didn't because everything is 100% outside your control.

[@NewMessage]

This vid made my determinism hard.

[@pedrobravo4404]

Hahahahahahahaha

[@bjorntheviking6039]

I found this comment way funnier than I ought to.

[@cezarcatalin1406]

+Bjorn The Viking to bad hard determinists can't deal with quantum mechanics and it's multiple worlds interpretation... if everything is pre-determined why can't you just tell the entire future or why can't you tell all that happened in the past? ... the truth is that just by saying "everything is pre-determined and I arrived at this conclusion because it was pre-determined to happen" you should get a metaparadox red light blinking somewhere in your brain... think about it: you know that your knowledge of pre-determination was pre-determined by the pre-determination principle... and if everything was pre-determined by this rule of pre-determination, did this rule pre-determined itself ? ... is like choosing or not choosing to be born, it's absurd ! ...but I have to give you credit Hank, ...you really did tried very hard to give us a existential crisis - but hard determinism got busted anyway... best of luck next time !

[@maxwellsimon4538]

Predeterminism only works if you think about time backwards or as if the future is already there, affecting the past in order to "guide" it somehow.

[@Fromdeno]

I think the basic concept is one things started everything and everything that followed was predetermined by that very first thing. So like, if I hit a ball and that ball hits a car and that car crashes and person in the other car was on his way to claim the lottery but ruined the ticket then the next person in line won all the money and instead of spending it all on himself like the other guy would've he spent it saving the world and one of those people he saved invented a rock ship that took us to mars and then to venus and then to another galaxy and then lead us into a point of civilization that we started to simulate our existence and you know, so on and so on. So now you think everything else that was influenced by this, like people in the crowd of the baseball game, or people in the streets, and again so on and so on. These would all seem like random things and every action a person made, every choice on an individual level would seem like a choice entirely, but we know that it all was influenced and determined for them based off of the very first thing starting everything. Now of course we have to believe that nothing else existed until that batter actually hit the ball, which is hard cause things like wind and gravity guide the ball, but just pretend. Also it's 3 am. Also also I Just watched something on Elon Musk about simulation and reality that's where I thought it would be entertaining to veer off into that in my example. Also also also it's still almost 3am.

[@Antitheist]

The social, physical, emotional , etc. consequences of our actions-both in our past and anticipated in the future-are themselves factors that influence our actions. So for those who believe hard determinism removes justification for punishing criminals, punishment is one of the necessary factors that results in the kinds of deterministic behaviors that lead to societies we want to live in.

[@darthmarth333]

Your honor I don’t have free will therefore I didn’t kill my wife. The universe killed my wife

[@kenniagonzalez3647]

that has to do with LaPlace's Demon. which is an argument FOR free will.

[@dant5349]

You joke but look up Clarence Darrow

[@trelane985]

There is still a conscious reason behind why you killed your wife, even if that conscious reason was determined by the universe. You still did kill your wife and there still will be consequences implemented. But to follow your argument, even these consequences themselves were determined by the universe, so in a sense the universe is punishing itself and we’re mere puppets who play it all out.

[@moxfredrikmoxnes2561]

Trelane true

[@rhiannonc5616]

It seems intuitive to think, well if there's no free will then I can't be punished for something I had no control over! There may be a lack of moral judgement in the case of no free-will, but determinism IS compatible with policies of punishment. Hearing about someone else being punished for doing something illegal may cause another to avoid doing the same action. Cause and effect!

[@Erfi248]

It’s not that you don’t choose anything. It’s that you don’t choose your self from the beginning.

[@brianowen406]

“He would kill his father and marry his mother” *ALABAMA 100*

[@JoeSnodgrassworks]

ROLL TIDE!

[@lisapriola7927]

That's funny 😂😂😂💯

[@HNfilms]

reddit moment

[@mrmoth26]

Sweet home Alabama.

[@lucascampana2993]

Santiago del Estero for us in Argentina

[@AaronfRogers]

Nothing makes me feel less in control over my life than going on a KZbin video binge, watching some videos that make me think I out of nowhere want to rewatch this video, and the first search result before I type anything in is the crash course determinism thumbnail… KZbin knew what I wanted to search, I was set on a path that I couldn’t see, but the algorithm was following perfectly.

[@carororororo]

This fills me with determination. sorry

[@fish_citizen]

Lol

[@meowdynyall9284]

Unfortunately.

[@Zeuts85]

Hahaha. Man I love that game.

[@zixitix3374]

nice one)))

[@benshoemaker1318]

moony fills me with scapegoats

[@letate3productions324]

We can all make the theories we want but none of us will really knows whats happening,everything is possible

[@clssgn]

I think that because my belief that CrashCourse is great and educational and my desire to be smart and educated and my temperament to watch something funny yet not unuseful has determined what I am doing right now, and also congrats for the new Play Button. You guys deserved it.

[@rickhecht1928]

not sure why you got all the thumbs down. Great job presenting a very complicated topic. Did you resolve the issue? No, but neither has thousands of years of debate. This was the first time I came across your channel and really enjoyed the production. Nice work!

[@Martial-Mat]

There's NO way to refute hard determinism. Even if you add in some kind of quantum randomness, which I have heard some people do, you are not in control of that randomness. Likewise, adding variables like preference, genetics, or whatever, does nothing to make your "decisions" less deterministic. They are simply factors involved in the compulsion to act in a particular way.

[@kyledolor5257]

"There's only one constant - causality. Action, reaction; cause and effect.."

[@Martial-Mat]

Exactly.

[@TheKeyote]

Exactly! Quantum randomness doesn't mean your actions aren't predetermined, it just means the universe as a whole isn't predetermined.

[@MoreAmerican]

Word. Would you say propensity or proclivity to act/react in a certain way?

[@Gold161803]

Couple the quantum randomness--and the tendency for quantum objects to behave differently when observed--with chaos theory, where small changes in initial conditions quickly create huge changes in the resulting process... and you'll end up with something which is built from a deterministic universe but looks enough like it isn't to be able to ignore the distinction.

[@jameswray50]

Hard determinism seems like it would also have some positive implications. For example; instead of punishing people for committing crimes we could see more value in rehabilitation, forcing inmates into a carefully crafted series of experiences designed to alter their personality in a way that is conducive to the rule of law.

[@Starcrash6984]

Have you read David Eagleman's book _Incognito_? I think you'd enjoy it.

[@WarriorJRD97]

You don't need to have a free will discussion to understand the positive implications of rehabilitation vs retribution. Hard determinism is helped by the fact criminology and psychology are further finding common factors in criminals in how they were raised, their social status, beliefs, etc.

[@RandomAcronyms]

ah man, you beat me to this comment. although, me being first was an impossibility, so no worries mate.

[@tom70077]

Well, most people exposed to the philosophy of hard determinism develop a sort of 'the devil made me do it' attitude. Which is the last thing you want them to have since it might be used to remove the 'burden' of personal responsibility. All this is probably not very practical anyway...and if it fails, well, then that'd be determined

[@tom70077]

Also....that whole proposal sounds very ominous

[@Akshatgiri]

Well then...Its upto fate to get me a girlfriend...

[@Akshatgiri]

Cool...

[@Martial-Mat]

No, that's not how it works. Determinism does not go out and hunt down a girlfriend. You might be a loser who will never get one. Or, the comment I just made might change something in you, and you are so affronted that you go get someone beautiful. Or accept that you are gay. Or stop caring. Yo do not CHOOSE how to respond to my comment - your programming does. But statistically, there's a girl out there that you'll be happy with and will meet. :-)

[@Morec0]

Or not.

[@Akshatgiri]

Mat Broomfield What you just described is not determinism...its free will...Determinism states that everything is determined...every decision i make is because of the other things that happened to me ..and those other things happened to me because of other things...i dont have a "free will" to chose whether i want to make myself better and find a girl who is suitable for me....or stay single and live my life.... I do believe in free will because ..well it is just more peaceful and soothing thought.. My comment stays true.. if you believe in determinism..I was mainly trying to mock determinism because that comment is ridiculous if you think about it...

[@waltermcmain3461]

I'unno, if not getting one gets you dissatisfied enough to make yourself better as a way to change that did you make a choice to change or were you forced to by deterministic circumstance?

[@N33dlem0use]

Thank you Crash Course! For giving us such good lessons and making me go through an existential crisis!

[@joecarano]

Every decision in your life has lead to you reading this comment 😟

[@mr.grantelkade4073]

I... I like you!

[@Nucc3]

It all depends where I came from to read this comment, which was to learn something and I didn't because of where I came from.

[@adamdreke]

LOL! Perfect!

[@marinmaric9583]

Well i didnt read it so that proves... Wait god freakind damn it!

[@merikijiya13]

🤔 I think I made a wrong turn back in 6th grade. Shouldn’t have eaten those gummy worms in gym class then maybe I wouldn’t have read this.

[@sandragonz813]

"Time to purposefully go mad to prove that I'm free!" -The Underground Man

[@TaunellE]

I had to. Go mad to prove that I'm free. It's not fun. That freaking abyss is real..

[@IshiFishiPlayzGamez]

Literally saying "to prove that I'm free" is suggesting a cause.

[@moodsmoody4936]

But that was because there was a cause "wanting to prove that he was free" meaning he in fact wasn't

[@davycrockett8886]

Don't worry his deterministic viewpoint is totally flawed. Our brains don't totally determine our thinking, our thinking determines a lot of our brain activity.

[@Cambridge792]

Another spin on this is the fact that we can only make one choice so therefore there is no free will. When you make a decision all you are really doing is analyzing a situation, making a conclusion and acting based on that. To have free will you would have to want 2 things absolutely equally and then make a choice between them which isn't possible so you would end up not making a choice which then becomes your only choice.

[@erwinhun]

I was a hard determinist before I even knew such a term existed. Now I have taken one step further and believe that all of time and space was created at the same instant, i.e that time does not 'create' anything (determined or not), it is just a position in timespace. It's fun to see the story of my life play out in front of me.

[@annaf7753]

My philosophical argument: 1) Everything in the universe is governed by physical laws 2) Physical laws can be expressed as a mathematical formula. 3) We - our brains, our bodies, everything - are part of the universe. Conclusion: There is a mathematical formula that can express everything in the universe. So, there is a formula that can describe how every neuron in every person's brain will fire and how everything around them in the physical world will move and create input, etc. This formula is far too complicated to ever calculate, but it exists. Ergo, there is a formula that describes the future, and therefore the future is predetermined, and therefore we don't have free will. It's a very uncomfortable conclusion, but I see no way out of it - we don't have free will.

[@SageofPHY6Paths]

Quantum Mechanics is not deterministic. It saves us from determinism. Small particles will behave according to probabilities. So even on large scale determinism will be false.

[@shuntpics]

I do agree with you, that we don't have free will. What is the self that has free will? What exactly is taking ownership of that sense of free will? Everything can be expressed in a mathematical formula? What is the formula for the formula? In other words, what is the mechanism for the mechanism itself and so on? Mathematical formulas are part of the universe, would it be possible to construct a mathematical formula that explains all phenomena? If so, what is the metaphysics that lays underneath each formula? It is purely infinite. The universe is nothing but an infinite mind, with limitless imagination. There is no self that exists in truth, that is there to take ownership of having free will. Therefore, both arguments for determinism vs free will are true in a merely relative sense rather than an absolute sense.

[@killoffman]

@@shuntpics Just asking here, given that we give meaning to the scientific progress we make as humans, if there is a theoretical mathemtical formula to the workings of the universe and a possibility that we figure it out, will using it to author the destiny of reality be a transition from determinism to free will or will the previous events determine how we author the destiny of the universe?

[@IsaiahReitanFilm]

“Rather than give you the illusion of free choice, I will be choosing for you”

[@wolfbenson]

A: Do you believe in free will? B: I have no choice.

[@Izzy-qf1do]

Me: Happy about life Crash Course: let me ruine this man's life.

[@davidbloxham5062]

Yeah determinsm is the final kick to a humans balls. First you hear your going to die. Santa is fake Yours parents aren't perfect Religion is a lie We evolved and are not special We have no free will and nothing we do matters. Dude determinism is the final kick to our balls. How much more can we take? 👊🤕

[@jeromedevecais2751]

Thats life -Joker

[@simpleman6352]

I just discovered that I was a hard determinist for the past 2 years. Honestly I know my every action, decision, thoughts are unavoidable but there's no problem living as if I had a free will.(which again was predetermined.)

[@dirtydairydaddy8688]

great video this presented ideas which i had, long standing problems with putting into words and you put them into words........i love determinizim

[@Master_WannaBe_]

Just here for my daily existential crisis

[@BingeWatchers]

We're inventively going to make a lot of of great, bad jokes down here.

[@benaaronmusic]

It's already been determined.

[@BingeWatchers]

And I inevitably wrote the wrong word in my comment.

[@MikeFromOz]

Don't worry, you were fated to do as much :) Or destined. Your choice really, it matters not either way :)

[@thelordscorner8502]

People have the limited Free Will. People can decide when to eat, when to sleep, when to sin, however, people do not have the power to tell God he is going to save you today because of your free will. John 6:44 King James Version (KJV) 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

[@liamc3995]

Hey! I love your channel!

[@asifhussain8835]

Never watched or studied about Free will in this cool way. Loved it!

[@jackson-zo8pt]

I KEEP TRYING TO DO DIFFERENT THINGS IN ORDER TO EXERCISE MY FREE WILL BUT I DONT HAVE ANY

[@DrBrainTickler]

3rd option... freewill braided with determinism. ;-)

[@isillor529]

+Beyond Psychology 4th option, none of this is "proven" enough to utilize beyond a simple mental exercise in the act of comprehending it.....

[@isillor529]

Beyond Psychology but still fascinating.

[@marvinedwards737]

It was inevitable that you would choose to do so of your own free will.

[@technolus5742]

Marvin Edwards what free will?

[@samuelschonenberger]

Just watched Bandersnatch Which is the reason, I clicked on this video But I put the video on my KZbin watch later list a week earlier, so something is fishy

[@masterpieces2218]

Love that movies

[@fauxpax]

Definitely check out the older stuff, too! Every episode in the series is worth a watch, and most are simple amazing. Season 1 Episode 2 if my favorite.

[@jermfish66]

You pass butter.

[@F4rl30d]

Welcome to the club pal 😉

[@fyr3st0rm35]

I substitute your reality and replace it with my own.

[@njabulomlotshwa6810]

Sanchez

[@balajisridhar]

Wrong video mate. "You pass butter" is about existentialism

[@PennyNickelMcGee]

Something in my mind determined that I should comment that this is easily the episode that has me thinking the most from the series so far. Good work!

[@Rogersensei93]

"Free will is just an illusion. Life is a game that plays us."-

[@Rogersensei93]

joking. We have the ability to choose how we feel and what we think at any present moment despite what has happened in our past or what is happening in our now. That is free will.

[@Noschool100]

to be fair, it could just feel like that due to ones ignorance, like of a coil flip feels random due to chaos theory but if we knew all of the physical forces at work you could know what the could flip would result in 100% of the time. if you knew how all the chemicals and cells were interacting in your you head then the veil of ignorance and your thoughts would be just as deterministic as a coin flip, or just random if quantum mechanics has an actual impact on the macroscopic world, neither case is really free will.

[@Rogersensei93]

these are "if's" that you're talking about. If you know that you are in control of your actions, thoughts, and feelings despite what has happened in your past or what's happening in your present than you know that free will is. A belief is only a thought that you keep thinking about. If you think that you have free will and prove it to yourself over and over again in your life, than free will is your reality.

[@Rogersensei93]

there is no right or wrong. I choose to believe/know that free will is in my reality.

[@Noschool100]

RogerTHFC believing in something doesn't prove it to be true, i could believe a coin flip will be tails even if all the calculated forces interacting on the coin says it will be heads. my beliefs won't change reality, i'll just be living in denial.

[@nts4906]

It is also possible that the structure of cause and effect isn't an entirely accurate representation of what is really going on, but only a tool we have for mapping out sequences of events. To say that the world is determined can only be an induction, and it would be really difficult, if not impossible, to actually prove that cause and effect are intrinsic elements of reality. This would imply that the dichotomy of freedom vs determinism may both be reliant on questionable assumptions, and that we ought to think about the problem in new ways.

[@thomasmeinhardt9793]

We can make that argument about just about anything. We may have a flawed understanding of gravity, yet we're able to determine the gravitational constant to a great enough degree of certainty that we can launch satellites into orbit and safely return payloads through reentry to the earth's surface. Our conceptualization of cause and effect and the flow of time may be imperfect, but we can understand cause and effect in the physical and chemical world that we inhabit well enough to be able to ignite jet fuel in rocket engines to launch said satellites into orbit. From a reductionist view, everything about ourselves boil down to similar physical, chemical, and biological processes. Common examples of cause and effect when it comes to a person's behaviors would be... knowing how to push someone's buttons to make them angry, or taking a dose of antidepressants to alter the chemical makeup of your brain to make you less sad, or respondent. Barring any new discovery that upends everything we know about the laws of physics, cause and effect is a very suitable way of understanding the world that we see and interact with. The laws of physics (as we know them, whether or not there are more that we don't yet understand) apply to everything in the universe, ourselves included.

[@nts4906]

+Thomas Meinhardt I don't understand your point. I never said that using patterns of cause and effect weren't useful. This argument is about understanding whether we are free or are determined, but while we can map certain patterns to varying degrees of accuracy, you are mistaking the tool for the world. Just because using formulae of cause effect is useful doesn't mean that the world itself can be understood deterministically. Like I said, it is no more than an induction. If you are doing philosophy, following popular and simple views of the world like determinism doesn't really do anything to further your understanding of the world or yourself, and is lazy.

[@DrBrainTickler]

Nate Saint Ours no, the argument is one of semantics... You can't prove free will or determinism either way and apply it to our choices so really all we are doing is deciding what we want to the words free will to mean. Every other debate is a waste of time. It only leads to more debate. Opinion plus opinion equals opinion.

[@nts4906]

You don't debate with opinion. You debate with reason...

[@DrBrainTickler]

Nate Saint Ours when we have all the evidence because we've done our research thoroughly and we have logic as well as cause and effect analysis locked down; we end up with the same answers because we can suss out what the most likely truth is... There is no debate. The only reason for a debate is when people have nothing but opinions and they don't know what they're talking about. It's a child's game. It's psyops. You're brainwashed with high school debate team BS. You are emulating all the other brainwashed sheep. You are distracted and you will never achieve accurate thinking until you escaped said brainwashed. Just to be clear, I'm not playing your pathetic childish game. I'm telling you what the truth is and then you think that you can debate the facts with your opinions. You create debate points for an argument that doesn't even exist and I most certainly am not having with you. This is very common that people think I am offering up a point in some debate... That I am making an argument rather than stating the facts of the matter.... I hate to break it to you; just like I hate to break it to everybody else but I don't bother with anything but the truth and if I don't know; I just quickly admit that I don't know... Because of this I'm almost never wrong. It's very simple. Get good at admitting when you just don't know and you'll never have any pointless debates and you'll almost never be wrong about anything.

[@israelRaizer]

A lot of people use the apparent randomness of quantum mechanics to prove that physical events don't necessarily have to have a cause, but I don't see how that helps... if it's random you're still not in control

[@comethawk2663]

That and it makes every single particle in the entire universe a free agent.

[@israelRaizer]

​@@comethawk2663 So what are the repercussions of that on our day to day lives? Should anyone be held accountable for their actions when actually they have all already been "determined" by the laws of physics and past states?

[@comethawk2663]

@@israelRaizer That is a really good question. The way I see it, everyone still has to be held accountable because we still affect everything just as much. It's not like a predetermined outcome is going to happen no matter what we do, it's more like it's going to happen because of what we end up doing. If we are the cause, even if there is some cause further down the line, we are responsible.

[@israelRaizer]

​@@comethawk2663 Well, but the thing is... if all our choices and thoughs are the product of neuron firing patterns, which are governed by physics, no one has the opportunity to act differently than what they already do. The movement of all the individual particles that make up our bodies could never be different than what it is because everything always happens according to the laws of nature. If free will is just an illusion or a false sensation, then nothing is wrong or right, it just is.

[@eddieking2976]

5:57 sums it up quite nicely.

[@wiseman8668]

I was determined to see through comments and post one as well.

[@tiagobarrias4936]

Why do i laugh when realizing im tied to fate and everything i do doesn't have meaning except for the one i give it

[@jamescobalt1126]

Today's existential crisis was brought to you by SquareSpace! Make it beautiful.

[@babayaga5117]

Who else is watching Devs and wish to understand determinism? Bear in mind, your arrival to this channel is pretty much determined. :P

[@gwendolyncourtney9198]

baba yaga oh my gosh, I know right! I wonder if it was determined that I’d pause devs in Episode 5 and watch a crash course of Determinism and then proceed to read the comments which lead me to here! This show is messing me up!

[@elijahclaude3413]

Lol Im watching this to prove that determinism doesnt exist. But in this version of reality, I did indeed choose to watch this video :P

[@MaxPower-cf9sq]

We're not here because we're free, we're here because we're not free. - sincerely, Agent Smith

[@stephennalewanyj6904]

You have no choice except to believe in free will.

[@MaxPower-cf9sq]

Stephen Nalewanyj well said my friend.

[@pango4425]

Stephen Nalewanyj My brain hurts. Stahp.

[@warrensmith792]

Stephen Nalewanyj or no choice but to not.

[@hamzaahmed3066]

Love that movie

[@bonappetit822]

Once you understand determinism you realize that all the people that you used to be jealous of are just lucky. Their predetermined life just gave them the best conditions and all the factors that played in their favor wich made them successful, popular, wealthy, attractive or whatever and that’s what make that they can be seen as “better” if we think of society’s standards.

[@user-rm2qj2jh4l]

One question I have is does this take into account quantum mechanics? Because at the very small level, things are probabilistic, and there are multiple possible outcomes, right?

[@ZackeryCochran]

I came to these conclusions a while ago, but it was a KZbin comment on another video describing my beliefs of the real world as something called “determinism” that ultimately led me to this video.

[@fefairys]

ok but even if we are deterministic as humans like... does that even really mean anything in the long run? i still technically have to decide things. just because it's "inevitable" it happens because i made the decision, right? like if i go to a donut store and i have to chose between glazed donut and chocolate frosted donut, even if it's inevitable that i chose chocolate frosted, i still have to make that decision in my head it won't just magically happen without me thinking about it first. god this is confusing.....

[@justtheouch]

fefairys Yes, intuitively we feel free, we feel like we are making decisions, and we have done for all of human history. If we find that determinism has always been true, nothing changes about the world except our knowledge and perceptions of it. We will still feel free, and for many determinists that's all society needs to function as it is.

[@ngocquenguyen1561]

You will judge and blame yourself and others less. And maybe you'll be more curious about what influenced your decisions, in order to condition yourself to make better decisions in future. Can apply the same to help other people or manipulate them **evil laughing**

[@matheus5230]

Josh Cottle Actually, You would have serious moral problems. After all, why condemn a murderer if this is the case. I refuse to ever accept such determinism and relativism.

[@the_furry_inside_your_walls639]

It really isn't. Just scientists and philosophers thinking too hard about life when there really is no need to. We still make up our decisions, regardless of what goes on in our brains. Hence, we're still making up our own free will. I don't like the idea determinists have that free will doesn't exist because of the laws of physics and logic and what goes on naturally, when really free will has no power beyond any of that as it is all a state of mind. Sweating scientists and tired philosophers can keep on refuting my belief in free will, as they *freely* choose, and I'll keep on believing in my free will. Until actual evidence shows up that free will doesn't exist and the theory of determinism really is true, I'll keep my free will, thank you very much.

[@thewalrusx]

it's subjective. I think if anything it just means that if humanity better understand our reality at some point we will definitely change our approach to justice.

[@timothymaddux9018]

After revisiting this episode years later, I realized that I had something akin to a counter argument to determinism. Well, more of a consequence, really. If we are all determined, than there really is no point in arguing because your fellow debating buddy is pre-determined to believe what they will. On the flip side, we have no way of uncovering what the predetermined outcome is other than by acting on it (according to how we were predetermined to), so proper determinism would be functionality indistinguishable from having free will.

[@_aidid]

My decision to watch this video was spontaneously determined in the suggestion box.

[@wingsuiter2392]

But was it really spontaneous?

[@FrankCoffman]

OK, what he said makes sense. One cannot deny determinism. But if every human thought and behavior is determined, how do we account for people changing their minds? A man may decide on one course of action -- but then, a few minutes later, he could change his mind and choose a different course of action. The man didn't get any new information. His instinctive desires didn't suddenly changed. No external influences were affecting him. Nothing changed except his mind. One cannot attribute his change of mind to any new external and internal factors. He simply rethought his options and made a different decision. A computer doesn't do that, but human beings can do that. If that's not the mind acting as a free agent, what is it?

[@kagwanjakariuki6000]

This is really a "turtle all the way down" situation. Any argument made for free will existed can be struck down by the single question "Why?" (perhaps not literally but you hopefully get my point.) If your circumstances are determined by previous actions and circumstances and your decisions are determined by any number of things from biological states to your previous decisions to your upbringing, every thing that happens has a cause as far as we currently know. It's a similar idea to Laplace's demon, "If you knew every future and past state of every atom in the universe, how would you not know the future?" P.S. You also can't really make the "God" argument because unless your God is chaotic, random, and completely indifferent to us (sniff, sniff... "What's that I smell? Is that atheism with a hint of nihilism?") then something caused his actions and feelings and thoughts thus "Turtles all the way down..."

[@Ares_gaming_117]

another conflicting viewpoint is how determinists explaim the big bang. how did the big bang start if no physical actions preceded the "first onr" known as the big bang. and if an action did really precede it, then, hypothetically, how did the first ever action take place? (of nothing?)

[@shadowling77777]

thefreedomofchoice.com/ Free book, give it a read. :D

[@metalcake2288]

There is no such thing as nothing, if nothing existed it wouldn't exist.

[@marvinedwards737]

Well, since we all agree that something cannot come out of nothing, we must accept that something is eternal. I call the eternal thing "stuff-in-motion". Stuff would be all the various forms of matter and motion would also include stuff transforming into other stuff due to physical forces, as when a super-colossal black hole gets one straw too many and explodes into a new universe of atoms and molecules which eventually get swept up into other black holes until the last straw and you get another big bang.

[@ColinTherac117]

Pretty sure recent experiments conducted by Stephan Hawking and a couple of others with the Hubble telescope (I remember the article mentioned there was some kind of bet invloved with the experiment which was part of why i remember it existed) that have concluded that the idea of the eternal cyclical universe is debunked. But I don't know where I read that so take it with a grain of salt. But since the existence of matter and its spreading out in the big bang is contingent upon the expansion of space itself (not the expansion of matter), why does it make sense for things that affect matter such as gravity to also affect the expansion of space itself such that space would then necessarily contract back to its previous state as a single point? All scientific study relies upon understanding the mechanisms of physical reality. And as yet there is no observed phenomenon to support that there is a mechanism that will cause space itself to contract again, at least as far as I have heard yet.

[@marvinedwards737]

Colin Theriac I don't know that infinity can expand, but, given infinity, there would likely be an infinite number of universes, with big bangs occurring all over the place like a pan of popping corn. It may be the case that material expanding out from the outer edge of one universe combines with matter from others to create more super-massive black holes and new universes. But there's no way to confirm any of this. It's pretty much all speculation.

[@99baking]

If Oedipus had any sense he would have never killed or married ANYONE, thus making it impossible for the prophecy to come true.

[@99baking]

Also, how are humans brains any different that the rest of the universe? They are made up of particles and neurons, and a subject tot he laws of physics. The whole "agent" thing doesn't make much sense to me.

[@AsianCalamariSQ]

The theory is that there's something metaphysical about humans which gives them free will (a mind, soul, whatever).

[@emmanueladeniji3719]

or he just shouldnt have married someone that much older than him

[@ToqTheWise]

Or better yet killed himself. ...Jesus Christ that's dark! Nevermind!

[@de132]

+Toq The Wise Or just not kill anyone, if he doesn't kill any man, he couldn't marry his mother because his mother would've been married. Unless he died... Okay, so don't marry any widows or women 9-20 years older than him

[@johnnybvintage2137]

i don’t understand why you can’t freely choose something, just bc it’s going to happen doesn’t mean you didn’t choose

[@kc4cvh]

9:38 My discontinuance of the video was determined by the appearance of the advertisement.

[@goatneck]

so if we made an exact copy of our universe, with the exact same atoms, energy etc. arranged in the exact same order so that they are perfectly identical and then let both universes run during 1000 years, will both universes still be identical after that time?

[@schwan8]

goatneck yes

[@pawelwozniak7211]

Actually not, because on most basic physical level, in subatomic world there is no determinism. Quantum physic which describe basic particles behavior has randomness and probability as built-in rules. It is not visible for human size object, but it's there.

[@schwan8]

Ok then, no.

[@goatneck]

Interesting, that is fair.. but how do we know that those events at a quantum level have any influence on the macro level world that we are able to percieve?

[@pawelwozniak7211]

Most of the thing which happen on macro level can be reduced to some kind of biological or chemical processes. Those can be further reduced to physical processes and described in the language of quantum mechanics. At least in theory, because still it's quite hard to accept that our mind processes, decisions, intentions etc are driven by some particles actions in our brains and our conscious control is just an illusion...

[@futureDK1]

Do crash course sociology please!

[@nikoskorobos3594]

sociology is a pseudoscience like theology.

[@futureDK1]

+Nikos Korobos You're a pseudoscience.

[@nikoskorobos3594]

+OnlineDater69 social sciences are the definition of pseudoscience.

[@slammerhammer1438]

+Nikos Korobos You are just watching OnlineDater struggle under your grasp

[@MasterofFace]

Can you get a science degree in sociology?

[@aludaidjanjan]

This video helps me to really understand Determinism Vs. Free will. God bless for me for reporting this in the class tomorrow.... I hope that I am determined to be successful..

[@zainabmgeni6118]

God! This video is so dark, insightful, stimulating and humorous! Thank you Hank and team! 😂😂😂

[@kupaa240]

I see it as we are jus spectators watching a game but we relate to the characters so well that we think were in control

[@lunoratic93]

What makes us so special is critical thought.

[@ESL-O.G.]

I like this SO MUCH more than his other channel. Suits him better

[@ahorrell]

I'd love to see a deeper dig into the belief - desire - temperament aspects. I feel like it could be sliced more... For example, it seems that some of the aspects of my temperament are endemic at a kingdom level (ie mammals), some at a species level (humans), some are due to gene expression, some are culturally determined, and some are derived from long-standing or deeply-held beliefs and desires that have solidified into temperament. Imagine we have six choices for breakfast; a pile of damp and rotting leaves, a bowl of literal faeces, vegemite on toast, a bowl of noodle soup, a bowl of yoghurt, and a bowl of cereal. Based on kingdom-level factors (I am an animals and not a fungus), I don't choose the pile of rotting leaves. Based on species-level factors (I am human and not a dog), I don't choose the faeces. Based on individual genetic differences (I have the AA genotype that corresponds to a preference for sweetness and not the TT genotype for salty foods), I don't choose the Vegemite on toast. Based on cultural factors (I am from NZ and not Vietnam), I don't choose the noodle soup. Based on long-standing / deeply-held beliefs and desires that have solidified into temperament (I am vegan and not an omnivore), I do not choose the yoghurt. I choose the bowl of cereal

[@BillySugger1965]

COMPATIBILISM - I sure hope the next episode resolves these extreme absurdities with some common sense. The rejection of that strict definition of "free" and the reconciliation of realistic determinism with practical ethics.

[@dontremb]

To me, it sounds like what you're saying is, "If we feel free, then it' basically the same thing as being free." If so, he did go over that.

[@AtSwimTwoBricks]

One way of looking at the difference between libertarian free will (that this video covered) and compatibilist free will (that Billy Sugger is talkiing about) is to consider the relationship between _reasons_ and _causes_. Libertarians think it's ether one or the other, and they choose reasons. Causes, after all, are entirely theoretical while reasons are things you deal with personally all the time and are really quite important. In contrast, compatibilists think it's possible for something to simultaneously happen for a reason and as the effect of a cause. The relationship between the two concepts is something more like the distinction between what you are doing (reasons) and how you are doing it (causes). Various connected issues are touched on in the debate as well, such as what the conditions are for personal identity, but that's something like 90% of the difference in perspective between the views.

[@BillySugger1965]

Indeed. What the debate I've seen has yet to touch on is the contribution of our understanding that we will be held accountable for our actions has on our decision making. A libertarian sociopath may choose an action based on innate and environmental causes, ignoring his anticipation of consequences. That is hard determinism. But a socially conscious individual will include in his choice his assessment of the consequences to himself and others of a particular action. He will choose freely to act or not, based on his preferences, including his estimation of whether the consequences will be to his liking. To a compatibilist, this latter individual is exercising free will completely in accordance with deterministic mechanisms. In that sense, to a compatibilist, the concept of free will is compatible with physical determinism in decision making. We *could* choose otherwise, but if we are truly free and choose base on our preferences, we won't. A random element in our choice, overriding our preferences, makes us less free. A supernatural influence overriding our preferences also makes us less free. Compatibilist freedom is the freedom to choose in a deterministic manner based entirely, and predictably, on our innate qualities, our environment and our individual history. There is no "could choose otherwise" about it.

[@SaturnineXTS]

What if a decision requires effort? What if you really want to do something, but are too lazy to do it and then feel bat about yourself afterwards? You could say it's the chemistry of your body controlling you, but then why can you, or why should you work to become a more pro-active person? What can you change? Is it already determined whether you'll succeed or not?

[@cheeseman417]

I’m definitely of the Hard Determinist mindset; what happens to an individual was always going to happen, like a person who decided not to work at the twin towers on 9/11 and lived, thats not free will, it simply wasnt their time yet. or a guy who is planned for his wedding, and has a tragic accident on the way to it, again, it was always going to happen whether we wished it or not.

[@InvisibleHomes]

"Temperament" is misspelled in all of the "equation" graphics.

[@YiannissB.]

Thanks, now i feel so conflicted. I guess that's determined too

[@bobs2809]

It comes down to our lack of understanding of what consciousness is.

[@RXM-257]

Kudos. You pretty much got it. So far as it can be explained in words. Ive been living with this realisation of Reality since 2004.

[@ductuslupus87]

The one thing I've noticed about this line of thinking is how we're not free to be held accountable for our decisions/actions, but we're free enough to make a better world (I think it's man is free to do what he wills but cannot will what he wills). The one I just can't understand is how we couldn't have acted any other way when it comes to a certain action, but we're some how free enough to correct it if it's bad. By the looks of things, you can't refute determinism, but then can't just brush it aside when morality becomes involved. Example: Say a person abducts, rapes and kills a small child. Now, by determinism, that action, as sad and as horrible it is, couldn't have happened any other way. But then people argue that because we likely know the past events that led up the person taking the child, it means we shouldn't punish the man. Instead we should rehabilitate the person. So why are free now to rehabilitate this man, but said person is not free when he commited the crime? If you follow determinism then the outcome of the crime doesn't really matter as it couldn't have happened any other way.

[@GC13]

Nor could our decision to punish the criminal for the crime have happened any other way.

[@NedJeffery]

The whole point of punishment is to create an incentive to NOT commit the crime in the first place. Saying that determinism makes someone no longer accountable for their actions is ignoring the beliefs, desires, and temperaments that went into causing the crime in the first place. e.g. a desire to not be punished, or a belief that you will get away with it. If we accept your conclusion that a person is not free when they commit a crime. Would it not make sense to remove that person from the rest of society to prevent further harm? My point is hard determinism can be used for or against your argument.

[@DrBrainTickler]

3rd and more complex option... Freewill braided with determinism.

[@aghiarasberry]

You've nailed it on the head there and I hope he reads it. The prison system is a perfect example to bring up when you consider the implications of determinism. It's about balancing a fine line between rehabilitation and deterrence for an optimal society. No-one chooses to be bad or evil, their thoughts and actions are just a reflection of their biological composition and external reality, so when the very real possibility of a life in jail gets in the way of the urges they have to do something really bad to another person then we have successfully accounted for those born with messed up brain chemistry and/ or personal experiences that have put them on this dark path.

[@Lithic32]

I believe this is one of the main reasons people do not like determinism - it means they must give up revenge. Humans like revenge. The point of justice should never be for that reason. As Ned said before me, the purpose is to dissuade further acts of that kind. If you truly don't find a person accountable and hold to determinism, that doesn't mean you shouldn't attempt rehabilitation, for our own sake and for the sake of the one who committed the crime. You just shouldn't really look at it as 'punishment' - something most people are loathe to do. Makes you think a little differently, eh?

[@GeneralDowson]

I chose to like this video, but I was always going to like this video, because it's a Crash Course video....

[@logixindie]

Yes. Much like a video clip, everybody in the video feels that they have options. But what they choose would always be the same at the same captured moment.

[@nicolepinkston7003]

You have 0 way to know that.

[@maxrequisite]

@@nicolepinkston7003 so he has no free will to know it is what you are saying?

[@MidiwaveProductions]

Free will is the idea that mind is not determined by space and time. This is experientially true: My body is determined to need food and water. I am free to give or not to give my body food and water. If free will did not exist I would not have a choice but to give the body food and water.