Crawford Comments on LOTR (ROTK book 1, ch. 1-3)

Jackson Crawford reads more of The Lord of the Rings. Start with video no. 1: • Old Norse Expert Reads...
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[@MrSilvUr]

I like the use of "beyond my ken" around 6:20 to refer to archaic language.

[@maxducoudray]

Isn't that still a fairly modern word in Scotland?

[@MrSilvUr]

​@maxducoudray It's pretty funny that you say that in the comment section of a video where the prof bemoans the flood of people saying that the words he finds archaic are still in use *somewhere*. I feel like it kind of misses the point.

[@MrVvulf]

@@maxducoudray I've never even been to Scotland, but know the term "beyond my ken" from reading Robert E. Howard novels in my youth. EDIT: Okay, one of the weirdest things just happened. I recently ordered a book, "Lord of Light" by Roger Zelazny. On page 10 is the sentence "His thought is still beyond our ken." That's a bizarre coincidence to happen on such an esoteric topic.

[@terned8893]

I laughed! I liked the juxtaposition of describing how you wouldn't use certain archaic phrasing in modern language and then unconsciously using a phrase that could be described as quite archaic 😂 Indeed 😂 I'm glad someone else noticed!

[@SNWWRNNG]

I was disappointed for a second when you identified Dernhelm with Eowyn, but then I remembered that you know the movies pretty well. I just love seeing people who don't know the story yet be surprised by the identity reveal, especially if they complained about how weird Dernhelm's sudden introduction and his lack of dialogue are. I'm loving the expertise shared by someone with a similar academic background to Tolkien; the little linguistic references and hidden information he put into his works are so easy to miss for most fans (me included). Thank you for the videos! :)

[@jacobrodgers7743]

"Spend all his PPE or spell slots for the day" What a great way to a) prove you are down with the RPG (as the kids say) and b) make it clear that for you (and others) there's more out there than the D&D methodology. Really enjoying this series and seeing familiar things through new eyes.

[@mcolville]

I *was* impressed that you knew Belfalas!

[@jonathonfrazier6622]

While Denethor and Pippin both speak Westron to one another, Denethor speaks it in the proper, high fashion. The Hobbits however speak a simplified form of the language. One which has dropped certain vocabulary that would be used in formal settings, for example words one would use to address a superior. Because Pippin does not know how to speak in the formal manner, he speaks to Denethor using words in the familiar mode. Denethor no doubt understood this but the surrounding guards who heard Pippin speak as though he was on equal terms with Denethor therefore thought he must be a person of high nobility amongst his people. (Which is technically kinda-sorta true).

[@kahinaloren]

Love these discussions so much. Thank you Jackson.

[@AiyaEärendilElenionAncalima]

I wish I could like this video twice! The whole series has been enjoyable, but this one struck me as particularly great. You are such an attentive reader that even someone very familiar with Tolkien's works is surprised at times. I had never heard of the link between pūcel and faunus before!

[@joannemoore3976]

Yes I would say all I have, or all I know, in that sense where 'all' is the totality of what I have or know etc.

[@joannemoore3976]

🤣🤣🤣 No, you got us this time, Jackson, I don't think I know anyone who says kine. Yet at the same time it resonates (probably because I have read LOTR too many times)

[@dancekeb1308]

I know what "kine" means too (don't think I learned it from LoTR) and never use it in speech, but there are hundreds of words like that in my vocabulary: the adjective and adverb "fain," for example, meaning "pleased or willing," always accompanied by an auxiliary verb such as "was" or "would." (Thank you, Shakespeare.)

[@NetTopsey]

I do appreciate these. Also, it wouldn't surprise me if Tolkien put "Easter eggs" in LoTR for scholars of Old English or Old Norse, or Welsh, Finnish, etc. I think anyone who writes fiction of any sort must put Easter eggs in their work partly to show off to others in the know, and partly wondering who will understand the references in either the near or long term. Thanks again for the read through, it is very enjoyable.

[@brovold72]

It's almost an entire Lego castle, but of Easter eggs.

[@brovold72]

These are really interesting takes and observations. Thank you.

[@haleyschreiter9746]

Thank you for this series, I'm really enjoying it!

[@Oakleaf012]

“It’s a linguist’s fantasy that someone would love the sound of old English” *immediately recites battle of Maldon and I am delighted* I guess I’m a linguist’s fantasy then 😂 Also regards to Isildur and the undead: oaths are extremely powerful in Tolkien’s world, so it isn’t just that Isildur can speak their fate into being, he’s also telling them what it is. You broke your oath and you are now cosmically effed until you fix it. The same way that song is magic in this world, so too are words, and especially oaths Edit to add: mildly shook to find out the etymology of “fey,” wow, I have always thought of it as related to fae/faerie, as in something wild and otherworldly, or even possessed. It means doomed to die?! I LOVE LEARNING WORDS

[@etepeteseat7424]

Yeah, after hearing him say that, it seems likely that it's related and/or equivalent to fated (I suspect fated may be of Italic/Latinate origin, so presumably a cognate or gloss?).

[@Jammyman998]

Cows are kye in Orkney

[@etepeteseat7424]

Yes, but that may be an Orcadian influence rather than an English one, to be fair.

[@rickeymariu1]

Woo! More lotr!

[@klausolekristiansen2960]

This is very interesting. Thank you.

[@joannemoore3976]

I think Tolkien does intend that Aragorn is using formal you to Eowyn..much later in the book, he will use thee (once the romantic entanglement is sorted out).

[@andrewhide5140]

I think I may have been overdoing the comments about words surviving in UK dialects 😊. To cut a (very) long story short, in Tolkien's backstory material the majority of the elves both in Valinor and Middle Earth have dark hair. Fair hair is characteristic of the Vanyar, the first and smallest of the contingents who travelled to Valinor, and one of the royal houses of the Noldor who intermarried with them. The higher-ranking elves in Middle Earth are either the Noldor who returned during the wars of the First Age or their descendants, and thus predominantly dark-haired. (Galadriel is a Noldorin princess from the fair-haired house. Some of the Teleri, the sea elves, are also stated as having "silver" hair, which may have been how her husband Celeborn came by his; Tolkien changed his mind about Celeborn's origins at least once.) The "King of the Dead" from whom the people in Belfalas were fleeing, I always took to be a terror-confused reference to Aragorn riding at the head of the shadow host. It also feels like Tolkien slipping in a Middle Earth echo of the Celtic myths of the Wild Hunt, in the same way that the drowning of Numenor is an echo of the myths of Atlantis. The fact that the shades of the dead not only suffer Aragorn to pass, but can be commanded by him, is another of the signs that he's the genuine heir of Isildur. I always find the little elegy Aragorn says over the skeletal remains of Baldor son of Brego, brought to a lonely death in the dark by his pride and folly, one of the more memorably affecting moments in the story. It also says something about Aragorn's character that he takes a moment, in the midst of everything else that's going on, to remember him that way. I like to imagine that Aragorn afterwards told Eomer about it, and resolved at least a little bit of the mystery about one of Eomer's sort-of ancestors, that the Rohirrim had wondered about for generations.

[@Roberthomas]

I got the same sense the You/Thou distinction between Aragorn/Eowyn is formal/informal.

[@peteg475]

People imagine "wain" as archaic too, and "wagon" the normal term (fair enough), but if they've heard of anyone sur-named "Wainwright", it's clearly an occupational family name for a wagon-maker.

[@waelisc]

@@peteg475 tbh, I think even "wagon" is pretty rare now in the UK, apart from talking about railway wagons

[@kahinaloren]

As a long time reader. I did not pick up on the linguistic differences when Eoywyn talked to Aragorn. Makes sense. She talked to an idea, and he talked to a young woman.

[@tarlonniel]

Trivia time! The 6ft tall eponymous rabbit from "Harvey" is called a pooka, which was my introduction to the term.

[@etepeteseat7424]

Pooka evolved into a specific sort of fairy creature/monster, though the term is far more common in (iirc) Celtic varieties of English like Irish Standard English than in either the British or American Standards. Also, Harvey is a phenomenal film. Love Jimmy Stewart.

[@tarlonniel]

@@etepeteseat7424 The original play was written by Mary Chase, born Mary Agnes McDonough Coyle, an American of Irish Catholic descent, which might explain her familiarity with the concept. And yes, the film is amazing! Stewart is one of my all-time favorite actors.

[@terben7339]

In England, the counties (shires) are divided into either ‘hundreds’ or ‘ wapentakes’. When I lived in Yorkshire, there was a nearby locality, Skyrack (from Shire oak) where it was said wapentakes had occurred.

[@MrLigonater]

29:08 So I didn’t realise it, (I actually assumed it was made up) but your comment made me remember the Pwykka demon that is mentioned in the TV show Britannia, set in 1 century Britain. It doesn’t really have a hole lot of bearing on this, but i didn’t realise they were somewhat linguistically grounded with that.

[@ElizabethT-nn5nt]

Interesting as always, thank you. I especially love it when you comment on the alliteration and ancient references in the 'Fornyrdislag' poems. Instead of minstrel, would you have expected to see him using 'bard'? I wonder whether Tolkien's avoiding that latter title because an important character in the Hobbit is named Bard... And as I listened to your comments about the etymology related to the word Púkel, in one sense referring to the devil, I suddenly realized where the Norwegian curse word 'Pokker!' comes from. 😅

[@waelisc]

the usual Old English word for a poet was "scop", pronounced like "shop"

[@ElizabethT-nn5nt]

@@waeliscI didn't know that. I can see why Tolkien didn't use that word at least, it would not be understandable for his readers.

[@waelisc]

@@ElizabethT-nn5nt that seems like the likely reason. Strangely for a culture so fond of poetry, "scop" seems to be the only Old English word for "poet", along with a couple of compounds - lēoþwyrhta, "song-wright" and wōþbora, "verse-bearer" - so Tolkien didn't have any good options for a native word at all 🤔

[@peterfoxash]

I found it interesting that you thought Merry saying "all he had" felt archaic. Where I live in the SE, saying "that's all I've got" or "that's all I know" is very normal speech.

[@sillyquiet]

"sometimes is some obscure Norman or middle-english thing that's beyond my ken" Professor Crawford sliding in with some subtle meta smart-assery? I think the word ken could be considered beyond your average English-speaker's ken.

[@lyndonmarquis414]

Not in Scotland :~)

[@sillyquiet]

@@lyndonmarquis414 Of course! Scottish English is too charming not to.

[@swyjix]

It was the craziest feeling to be learning German, thereby knowing the verb kennen, and then read song of the ancient mariner for fun. I encountered ken as an English verb there but even though I’d never heard it in English I knew what it meant. It was so weird to understand something from my native tongue off the back of a second language.

[@etepeteseat7424]

Here in the South, ken is definitely still archaic and dialectal, but it's not totally unfamiliar, especially if you have ties to slightly earlier Appalachian speech through family or other experience.

[@milanney8969]

"ken" as a free-standing noun is archaic, but I would say that "beyond (somone's) ken" merely belongs to an elevated register without being archaic

[@et.qui.auques.recoillir]

looking forward for you reading some other high fantasy books, e.g. The Eye of the World or something you like.

[@David.Bowman.]

Talking to one’s-self occurs a fair amount in the books when you think about it. Gandalf talking to himself is definitely not the first time: when he returns in Fangorn and Aragorn says he has not changed and speaks in riddles, he replies “…I was talking aloud to myself. A habit of the old: they choose the wisest person present to speak to; the long explanations needed by the young are wearying’. Then you have probably the most extreme example of Sméagol/Gollum, Slinker and Stinker, always holding a conversation between his seemingly conjoined personalities. Whilst Gandalf and Sméagol may seem very different, it’s interesting to think that Sméagol’s secondary voice is the one that has probably kept him alive; despite its malicious nature it is the ‘wiser’ personality of the two in that regard. As for a ‘habit of the old’, there are few mortals as old as Sméagol… Another one that sticks out in my mind is when Goldberry is talking to Frodo: …she answered and her smile faded. “That would indeed be a burden”, she added in a low voice as if to herself. What I found interesting about Goldberry’s example is how it’s presented as almost like a theatrical/stage direction, an ‘aside’ for an audience’s benefit.

[@jonathonfrazier6622]

Great.

[@johanneswerner1140]

6:12 Minute mark: it basically shows that England and the US might have a lot in common, but not the language 😉

[@Laufeyjarsen9]

I have a grey Subaru Forrester that I named "Shadow Fax" because it can go long distances quickly and safely. Also, she is grey.

[@eschiedler]

You have a very nice home, with wood windows, jambs, casing, sill, apron in stain grade material and well-crafted, large eave overhangs outdoors.

[@peteg475]

Elrond's two son's names, Elladan and Elrohir, have names with obvious meanings if you just think about it, based on other names you've heard in the story: "Elladan" is El-Adan, meaning "Elf-man", and "Elrohir", El-Rohir, meaning "Elf horseman".

[@lyndonmarquis414]

I know what you mean about the Frodo and Sam sections. I find the second half of Two Towers _hard_ going. When I’m re-reading it nowadays, I’ll do a chapter from book 3 and then one from book 4 and then keep alternating just to break it up a bit.

[@David.Bowman.]

Is ‘pukel’ anything to do with Ancient Greek πεύκο, as in ‘Pine’ tree? The other name for them was Druedain, which is suspiciously similar to Druid, itself derived from an old word for Oak. So I just wondered if trees are a link there.

[@thepablorz]

Interesting, thanks.

[@thepablorz]

I was thinking you sounded really quick today... turns out I was listening at 1.25 speed.

[@Sindraug25]

Can you explain what you meant by "all" being using as a singular in Merry's line, "All he had was a few useful things he had picked up"? I've tried thinking about how this might not be standard usage and even looked up the line in the book, and I can't find anything odd about it. To me, this seems like very common usage that I've heard all my life, and I live in Colorado. How would you expect this to be said that is different from what is in the book?

[@waelisc]

I agree that Merry's usage is completely familiar to me (sorry, Jackson 😅), but the observation is that "was" is singular, so implies that "all", which it agrees with, is singular too. The alternative would be to say "all he had *were* a few useful things".

[@Sindraug25]

@waelisc Now thinking about like that, I'm not even sure which one I typically hear or use. 🤣 I'm going to have to pay attention to it now.

[@swyjix]

I find it quite common from my surroundings in the southern USA. It seems totally normal.

[@rahilario]

Yes, Tolkien used two main words to refer to "wizards": The istari (pl) "The wise" from the Quenya verb "ista" signifying "those who know" which exists in Sindarin as (s) "ithron" and (pl) "ithryn." (For more "those who know" connections, the Noldor ultimately stem from the ñoldo/ngoldo, meaning "those with knowledge" which Tolkien borrowed all the way back from greek "gnosis" knoweldge) The other is from the Quenya root "curu-" which ultimately early on meant something like "crafty" or "clever," and we see that in one of the original Quenya names of Saruman, "Curunir."

[@pwmiles56]

The "kine of Araw" is interesting for the name Araw. This is the Sindarin name for the huntsman of the Valar, called in Quenya Oromë. "Araw" seems to have originated in this passage. At a guess it's influenced by Arawn, king of the Otherworld, whose hunt Prince Pwyll runs into in the Mabinogion. Tolkien certainly knew the story, for he refers to it in 'English and Welsh'. Rather amusingly he implies the Welsh writer did a poor job, and it would have been a much better story if the Beowulf-poet had written it.

[@samuelyeates2326]

One wonders if we should picture elk or I suppose aurochs as the kine of Araw.

[@David.Bowman.]

Not sure if this means anything but Arawn is supposedly from Aaron, which does not much sense as a King of a Celtic mythical Otherworld Annwfn which would also one day be equated with ‘Hell’! What’s interesting though is following a different path, Latin ‘arvus’ ‘plough’, and Welsh ‘erw’ (say that out loud!😉) ‘acre’. Proto-italic apparently has ‘arawos’. You can see the connection there. And Araw ties in better with ploughs in connection also with the Aurochs - as in pulling a plough maybe, but also the ‘son’ of Orome was (in draft form) Telimektar who ended up stuck in the sky as … the Plough constellation Oh and one of Orome’s other names is Tauron, which has its own Tolkienian meaning of ‘Lord of Forests’ but it can hardly be ignored the similarity to Taurus, Orion’s neighbouring constellation. Don’t think I worded that very well but hopefully makes sense somewhat

[@JenksAnro]

I mean, they don't comment on it, but Sam is west-country, Merry Irish, and Pippin scottish in the movies, but i guess too much specific accents attribution might create unwanted associations? And most hobbit extras are west-country also, tho Frodo is standard southern british like most the humans

[@ElizabethT-nn5nt]

@@JenksAnro Slightly OT; the first time I heard Elijah Wood speaking as himself I was amazed. At the time FotR premiered I didn't know much about the younger actors and I did not know he was American.

[@rahilario]

There simply is just no consistency in the movies. It was not a thing that they worked towards. By all rights Frodo should have a similar accent to either Bilbo, Merry, or Sam, but he doesn't sound similar to any of them. Boromir has at times a slight similar accent to Gandalf, which also doesn't make sense. Galadriel butchered the most important name in the legendarium, Earendil. The movies just didn't care

[@JenksAnro]

​​​@@rahilariomost people in Lord of the Rings have an SSB accent, tho Gandalf is closer to the older RP accent, since I think Ian was trying to somewhat replicate Tolkein's voice. Tho a lot of them are attempting SSB despite being from new-zealand or elsewhere, so it is a bit rough. Elijah is trying to have the same accent as Bilbo, both are SSB, though one is native, the other is an American replicating it. And then the orcs are cockney.

[@lyndonmarquis414]

Thee and thou as a southern thing in the states is interesting. In Yorkshire (in northern England), there are folk of my dad’s generation (he’s in his 80s) that still say thee and thou. As far as I know, this is not a thing in the south (happy to be corrected, I don’t spend much time there).

[@Sindraug25]

I believe what he was referring to was southern Baptist preachers saying it while reading scripture. I'm not aware of anywhere in the US where thou and thee are used in everyday speech.

[@etepeteseat7424]

@@Sindraug25 Yes, this was also the impression that I got. It is worth noting, however, that until fairly recently (early-to-mid Twentieth Century) American Quakers also retained the traditional distinction between thou and you-I remember one of the biopics about Nixon depicting a member of his family and/or community using it in conversation with him, as a pop culture example.

[@Sindraug25]

@@etepeteseat7424 Cool! I didn't know that.

[@lyndonmarquis414]

Fun UK wapentake fact: the three Yorkshire Ridings were divided into Wapentakes (I guess as a hangover from the Dane Law?) and these were not dissolved as a form of local government until 1974. Edit: happy to be corrected on this - I was 4 when this happened and local government was low on my priorities.

[@waelisc]

the Yorkshire Ridings are a similar early-medieval organisational hangover

[@tessastrong1770]

this is of course entirely subjective, but i always found frodo and sam's story more "interesting" because it is closer and more human. i found the chapters that deal with the course of the war of the ring to be drier precisely because they are so much broader in scope

[@willie3262]

I’ve heard “ere” pronounced as homophonic to “ear,” as well as to “air,” “heir,” and “err.” Is that what you’re referring to as coming from your hearing it in a Baptist context? Dictionary pronunciations tend towards the “air” pronunciation, but I feel like I’ve heard it spoken more frequently like “ear.”

[@Sindraug25]

I've always said it as "air". I assumed people who say "ear" just don't know how it's pronounced. I've actually heard someone say it as "eerie" before. That was a facepalm.

[@willie3262]

@@Sindraug25 I give every current speaker a pass, given it's not in common spoken usage in English, anymore, and is mostly encountered written, nowadays. Plus, words can take on new pronunciations over time. But, I agree with you. I think the most established pronunciation, historically, is homophonic with "air." I do think it's pretty interesting if an origin for a more recent "ear" change in that pronunciation is congregations hearing American Protestant preachers, who themselves learned it either strictly from reading it, or from someone else who did, at some point along the line.

[@stevelknievel4183]

It should be pointed out that the name of the Isle of Wight, off of the south coast of England is unrelated to the word wight Jackson defines here. Rather, its descended from its Latin name Vectis.

[@stevenklinden]

Perhaps I'm misremembering, but I thought that Gimli can't see the dead because they're in the dark paths beneath the mountains, not because they're _invisible_ as such.

[@kahinaloren]

A Norwegian saying "troll i ord". As in you can speak bad things into happening.

[@plixypl0x]

10:15 The only examples I recall using the prefix “over” are overtired and overtime.

[@waelisc]

as well as those, I hear over-hyped and over-long pretty commonly

[@pwmiles56]

I hope you will take this in good part, but I can think of a lot more "over-" formations (possibly what Jackson was alluding to),. Overdue? Overactive? Overburden? (a technical term in mining and the like). Overwrought? Oversold? Over-eager? Over-ready? Over-generous? Overseer? Overcoat?

[@plixypl0x]

@@pwmiles56 None taken! Based on audience of his vodeos I assumed someone would add many more common examples. I was very unclear in my haste to comment: I meant immediately comes to mind (while watching the video b/c I would forget otherwise).

[@waelisc]

@@pwmiles56 ooh, also over-stretched and to over-reach, overspend, over-achiever, over-compensate, overcome, overspill, overheat, over-charge, over-run, over-used,... so you're completely right and it's everywhere 😅

[@andrewhide5140]

There are probably even a few more that have been overlooked 🙂

[@ZhougLover]

Waggon is the standard spelling here. So, it is still weird to hear it described as archaic. Over there with your newfangled "wagon".

[@Pengalen]

Complains that kine is archaic. Casually uses the word ken in the very next sentence. :D

[@animistchannel]

There are definitely some families that retain the use of "all" as a collective singular almost pronoun. "All" is kinda like a pronoun for "the lot" or "all that stuff" or "whatever you can get together," which shows a certain animistic attitude of things or skills as creatures unto themselves. My family is pretty old-ways in a lot of ways, so maybe we retain more of the linguistic elements of former norse-germanic or animistic strains. As for Pukel-men, I took that to mean "spirit-men" meaning animistic/shamanic people who were also/therefor stealthy and subtle and blended into the landscape. They had lived around Gondorian territory for millennia and yet maintained their independence and culture, kind of like the sami in medieval times. They saw the "soul" in substances.

[@Ennio444]

But they did give Hobbits their own West Country dialect.

[@erlinggaratun6726]

LOTR is in no way ljotr, but I must add that I would much rather enjoy a series on/reading of Njåls Saga ;)

[@JacksonCrawford]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/eofWdqevZrGKgqs

[@et.qui.auques.recoillir]

How is your Finnish learning going?

[@milanney8969]

(Sorry to be the annoying person about "kine"; it's definitely not common in England either, but I suspect many might hear it as 'rural dialect' rather than as 'King James Version')