CRC Synod 2024 is Fighting Over the Profilicities of its Interconnected Subtle Bodies

‪@crcna‬ Wednesday Morning - June 19 - Synod 2024 www.youtube.co...
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[@lancecleaver227]

Oh man we need HERB Paul. Let's get it done.

[@pigetstuck]

seconded

[@Stephen.D20]

thirded

[@tylerhelfers7693]

Herb's main point: We need to stop ramming ourselves into the guardrails and just drive on the road like we we're supposed to."

[@erc9468]

@@tylerhelfers7693 Yeah - the dude who tried to make the case that Herb wasn’t a genuine guy was not on the right track.

[@tylerhelfers7693]

Thinking of this topic of witness and profilicity, I'm reminded of these words from 1 Peter 2: "I urge you, as foreigners and exiles, to abstain from sinful desires, which wage war against your soul. 12 Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day he visits us." We're living in a moment where progressives thought they were living--and projecting through their words, actions, social media, and symbols--good lives among the pagans, but instead of glorifying God, the world saw an opportunity to pat itself on the back and rest assured that the church was slowly, but surely, getting there...And at the same time, as the CRC moves forward in its effort to strengthen its witness through these particular confessional stances/actions, those outside it (and some of those within) will only accuse it of doing wrong. Meanwhile, both sides of this debate in the CRC wrestle over who gets to have the terms exile and foreigner, and how those terms are defined. Obviously, this isn't the whole picture, but just something that struck me this morning as I reflected on your thoughts.

[@BeachandHills-hb2pq]

Yes well noted Peters words are very usefull to us now. Members of modern society are moving away from a christian life style and trying to affect us. The sinful desires are being encouraged by secular society. It feels strange to us rejecting what our friends and nieghbors now think and feel is allowed.

[@williambranch4283]

Nice. Only progress under the Holy Spirit.

[@jeremyfirth]

The other aspect of this I find so interesting is that this synod is a microcosm of the weaknesses of modernity and especially of the Enlightenment coming to their logical conclusions. The Enlightenment was all about the individual. Protestantism is also all about the individual. Enlightenment is also about egalitarianism and the individual as a sovereign being. This doesn't actually work at all, and isn't how reality works at all. This synod is revealing how a focus on the individual doesn't scale up into larger groups. You can't have a church and a culture of declaring your own identity simultaneously. Either the person is governed by the body of the church and its rules, or there is no church. There is no body without boundaries. If you have no skin around your body, you have no body. Your skin is permeable, of course, but it's definitely a boundary. All this argument about how the body can function above the level of the individual really is the liberal mindset trying to wrestle with hierarchy and struggling to reconcile the glorification of the sovereign self with the need to have a unified vision that unifies a body.

[@lancecleaver227]

This nails it Jeremy.

[@chrisfair11]

I love listening to your content. I have had mentors with you scattered/smarty style weaving threads through ideas and stories to form a tapestry once all together. Even unfinished. But after this video I am convinced your brain works in a never ending SlumDog Millionaire stream of consciousness.

[@jeremyfirth]

It seems that the fundamental error at the root of all this debate about SSA is the error of identifying with one's passions. It really doesn't matter what the passion is. Identifying with one's passions is the sin. Why this one is getting a special carve-out is somewhat mysterious to me. The discussion about gluttony or pride or envy is just as relevant today. So much of this seems to be part of the price Protestants are paying for cutting themselves off from Christian tradition and doctrines that pre-date Luther and that are not strictly Biblical (although supported by the Bible) but are part of the Christian tradition, nonetheless. To me, this is clearly a result of Protestants throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[@chrishoward8473]

I don't see how it attaches to Protestants. Otherwise I agree.

[@jeremyfirth]

@@chrishoward8473 Are the passions and the virtues in the Bible? No? Better throw it out! That's simplistic, but the spirit of what I'm pointing at. The doctrines of sin, redemption, salvation, and atonement were radically transformed by Protestantism, which definitely affects this argument. Also, the mixing of Christianity with liberalism ultimately leads to this stalemate of authority/hierarchy/tradition vs. egalitarianism/self-delcared identity/my own interpretation of all things written.

[@RonCopperman]

47:41 how is it a good thing to do....( I dont understand. Thanks for any insight.)

[@LunarSongbird]

My take is that Paul meant that we are trying to bring PEOPLE who are in or pro-same-sex marriage into Christianity. It seems a good thing to want to bring others into Christianity, into the family of God.

[@chrishoward8473]

Do I contradict myself? Very well then I contradict myself, (I am large, I contain multitudes.) Walt Whitman

[@jimluebke3869]

Clearly, legion.

[@DrBowtieBrian]

First! 😊

[@jankragt7789]

About the gravamina...Paul you know and great deal about the politics I'm sure, but from my view having watched the leftist movement take-overs of culture on so many levels, all institutions, including churches...this isn't so much about the new realities of the internet. That must be made secondary, is easily an excuse or distraction. You have to be able to see how powerful MINORITY MOVEMENTS know very well, through a great deal of success in dominating the culture already, HOW TO LEVERAGE larger COLLECTIVES to take power, to control a great deal of fairly content, passive and/or intimidated/cowed people. Gravamina for churches or classes is a neat way to quickly do that, what level of power next? This also more easily 1. relativizes the confessions or norms & standards as not REALLY established at all. 2. The INDIVIDUAL conscious on the other side is trivialized as secondary. In an age of SECULAR COLLECTIVES (bodies are all-in-all), how predictable. How is that Christian? It's more LANGUAGE colonization of the leftists. The individual might as well just say WHY bother with my silly little conscious in relation to the confessions/beliefs...why not just wait to see what the next effort to change things will be...a moving standard of the emerging collective truth or reality? Individual conscious bothering you? Go out church shopping every time things change or just don't worry about it. So what. Watch the mental/emotional chaotic fun. If the "conservative" side then also uses similar mentalities of collective POWER (softened w the language of a false collective "conscious"), and they insist women be disallowed as pastors & leaders, that would only be natural. This is a FAIL since attitudes behind all these movements are not even critiqued or weighed. Religion lining up with the ways & mentalities of IDENTITIY collective movements predictably are FOLLOWING BEHIND the culture. What a waste. Perhaps many women who are conservative now would become a MIX of conservative and liberal as Race "diversity" BLM or perhaps another identity focus gets a green light. While female leadership is treated as toxic. Someone needs to do a complete PRIOR analysis of IDENTITY movements/power movements in general, then a consensus reached about a church stance toward the whole thing. These movements & non-Christian values are one way or another poisoning the well.

[@jimluebke3869]

"If the church has a rainbow flag out front, you have some idea what that church believes" ... Nothing?

[@WhiteStoneName]

45:20 Does a council have a conscience? If so, how would it be discerned? And then applied?

[@WhiteStoneName]

There is a GREAT section of simple wisdom on this very part, I think…I can’t remember exactly, in Chad’s convo with Corey.

[@jimluebke3869]

It might just be an activist webmaster and a weak pastor.

[@WhiteStoneName]

41:00 … “That’s actually the most interesting question: what is the relationship btw the will of a council and the will of the individual?” And can these be expressed propositionally? The will of a body is not propositional. This is the diff btw bodies and institutions/machines, imo. Edit: ONE of the differences. But a significant one.

[@jimluebke3869]

"Women in office" is likely to drift in a Conservative direction, with women taking on traditional roles in child care, home visits, emotional support / connection, and teaching.

[@williambranch4283]

Second

[@brycecarlisle5749]

Sincerity, authenticity, profilicity. pre-1965, 1965-2010, 2010-now.

[@williambranch4283]

Authenticity can cover insincerity.

[@chrishoward8473]

Present your body a living sacrifice, which is your reasonable act of worship.

[@nickloenen4255]

If the concern is to clean up the messages on church signs and websites, we could start with false advertising. Many congregations claim all persons are welcome, ‘No matter who you are’. Following synod 2022, can CRC congregations still make that claim without qualification? Does honesty not require we suggest those in committed same-sex relationships first clean up their act?

[@fancyhitchpin8675]

Perhaps the concern should be restoring the implication to the general public that the church will always take sanctification seriously. I'll agree though that banishing the phrase "no matter who you are" would be a good step for any organization that takes anything seriously.

[@jimluebke3869]

Catch the fish before cleaning.

[@RonCopperman]

26:17 now it finally makes sense !

[@clintd3476]

Bronze

[@erics4802]

the dealer portion of this is probably overstating to borderline doxxing... might want to review and edit...

[@MarcInTbilisi]

"a distributed network of authority". Dude! You see my point yet?

[@LunarSongbird]

Hi Paul & others, I am one of those people who mostly listen to your CRC stuff, occasionally other things. I just listened to this one. Lots of thoughts. Thanks for putting this out there. It's nice to hear you say you respect the leaders and the way they are trying to be respectful of others in the process. I have a friend (a woman pastor) who is at Synod and she posted that the laughter at the coffee break in the midst of her own great sadness and crying was hard to take. I was left with an impression that the side that was "winning" was being unkind, and I'm glad to hear it sounds like there was kindness in the room. I remembered at what was, I think, my last Classis meeting where a church in the Classis withdrew because they felt that although the women's issue was decided as a local issue, as you said in the video, in reality the denomination celebrated women in office and did not fully celebrate those who did not agree. In that case, there was just sadness and sorrow in the room, a quiet, collective grieving at the loss of brothers and sisters in Christ. I think you were there and may remember, too. I am intrigued by your discussion of profilicities, which I had never heard of before. There's a lot of sense to what you say. I tried to talk to a young friend of mine about the difficulty for me in dealing with this. When the women in office issue came up, I was strongly in favor of women in office and felt like I could, in my small way, help our denomination to change. I still felt that the "local option" did not go far enough, and in my own church it was not until about 7 years ago that we finally had a woman elder, and I felt like a lone voice in the wilderness for many years. But I honestly did not consider leaving the CRC during all those years. Now, I am having that reaction, kind of like the confusion you spoke of. I talked with a young friend who is part of the generation after mine about it. She grew up in our church and loves our church. But she explained that right now, she feels like if she revealed her true beliefs (which include support of same-sex marriage and pro-choice), people in our church who she loves and profess to love her would reject her. The authenticity you spoke of. I understand it because I know her and believe her. I know she misses the church family she grew up in. For me, it feels so much less black and white. I feel kind of traitorous to my LGBTQI+ friends and others. It seems like they would think there is no question I should not be associated with a denomination that is making a stand so antithetical to who they are, to loving them and bringing them into the fold of Christianity. Yet, I have been in my church over 40 years. They helped to raise my children. They brought me and my family meals when I was bedridden. Even when some of the people vehemently disagreed with me and were unkind and mean to me, I still felt like if they heard I needed help, they'd be there with their hearts open and give me and my family whatever I needed. I served in the church for all those years in many ways, I brought food to those who were sick, I tried to show the love of Christ to them and felt they were doing the same to me. Now, I said to my friend, do I stop bringing soup to a sick member of my church family because the denomination we are both a part of is standing against same sex marriage? I'm moving soon to a town full of my family--my literal brother, sisters, aunts, uncles, the town where my dad grew up in his family of 8 kids and where he and my mom retired to. Do I not join the CRC church at the end of the road where my aunt goes and my cousin and her family go and the minister seems progressive although I don't know his specific beliefs on specific issues? Where I can sit on a Sunday surrounded by my literal and church family and be spiritually fed by the singing and the sermon and the liturgy I love? I will continue to listen and pray.

[@michaelkistner6286]

One of the hardest questions to ask when we find ourselves in a situation like yours (and I've been there myself several times) is "What if they're right?" What if God really does want this from me? Will I be able, even if I'm willing, to comply? I guess this boils down to the scariest question of all. What if God isn't who I think He is? These questions don't resolve the immediate issue, but I've found them a useful tool for examining my motivations.

[@LunarSongbird]

@@michaelkistner6286 Yes.

[@jimluebke3869]

"This above all: to thine own self be true" - Polonius (Who is an idiot.)

[@WhiteStoneName]

39:30 Sam rejoices.

[@RonCopperman]

13:43 yup, had that house next to me in Indiana

[@tylerhelfers7693]

My daughters walked by while I was watching this. My seven year old said, "Oh, Dad is watching Paul again. Probably talking about Synod." Meanwhile, the 2.5yr old ran by pointing at the screen and said, "Look, it's Peppa Pig!" Thanks for the thoughts on synod...

[@jonathanspronk452]

My son Finn is glad that Dad is done watching Synod every morning this week so that he can go back to watching the Euros soccer.

[@WmLocke]

Interesting: this video makes me think about how the bottom of an organisation needs to align with the top for coherence, but the bottom needs some freedom and fruitful obscurity to thrive. Authenticity in the context of sincerity at higher levels? Perhaps there’s a fractal nature to healthy hierarchies. If you can draw a straight line from the top to the bottom, then it’s no longer a living, changing organism.

[@williambranch4283]

Tyranny of the majority or just a plain old dictator?

[@lancecleaver227]

I’m watching Synod and PVK is counter programming … it’s gonna be a 2x day!

[@pigetstuck]

Have you attended any CRC services in your area?

[@lancecleaver227]

@@pigetstuck I have not. I am an Orthodox Christian.

[@pigetstuck]

@@lancecleaver227 Are Orthodox allowed to visit other services? pray with other Christians?

[@lancecleaver227]

@@pigetstuck My extended family is not Orthodox. I pray with them all the time. I have no real interest in attending other churches but I could visit one of course.

[@MarcInTbilisi]

Dude, you've generated all this interest in the CRC, which baffles me but well done I guess. And there are questions and answers and opinions, which I've not followed closely, hence the uneducated comment but... Aagghh, nope, can't explain that, aagghh, can't explain that either, not in a comment. Grrr. I've never called myself a Christian. Maybe others do. I neither know nor care. Here's the irony. For me, Christ is the highest. I am ashamed to call myself a Christian because, to quote Wayne's World, "we're not worthy". I'm peering into the church from the outside and looking at the concerns and think wtf? Where is Christ? If I knock on your door, chances are I'm asking for help. It doesn't matter what my confusion is, I'm asking for help. Online you appear to embody this idea, which is admirable. But let's have a discussion on which confusion we should help and which confusion we bar our doors to? One of the few things Bishop Barron said that I liked was something like 'the doors are open to everyone, but these are our ideals...' and I think this is right. Anyway, rant over. What have I misunderstood?

[@jeremyfirth]

You have struck at the heart of a divide between the West and the East, at least with regard to the approach or the philosophy of law. In the West, we are shaped by liberalism, so our foundation for law is the social contract. We have to live together, so here are the minimum rules you must follow to live in society. And if you break those, you have to go to jail or pay a fine or both. This model is very problematic with regard to God's law (which we all break) and "punishment" (which we mistakenly call "justice"). This is what you are pointing to. This is very messy. In the East (and I'm speaking specifically about the Greek Church Fathers), law is seen as the ideal. No one can follow all of the law. You are to strive to crucify yourself and to follow the law exactly, but you won't. Which is what confession and absolution are for. If you rely only on God's mercy, you fall into dissolution and sin because you think "I'm already saved." If you rely only on your efforts, you can either fall into pride ("I got this because I am spiritually advanced!") or despair ("Look at how terrible and unworthy I am! I cannot even pray!") Both of these are traps. The approach is the straight and narrow path of striving to keep God's commandments and crying out for His mercy constantly as we fall short of the ideal and recognize our own weakness.

[@williambranch4283]

@@jeremyfirth Wow

[@SophroniaAlba]

Is the end result of authenticity "no bad choices"?

[@TheSeeking2know]

🤔

[@hankkruse4660]

I hereby nominate Jacob to chair next year's synod.

[@jimluebke3869]

Live reaction stream, rather.

[@clintd3476]

I don’t like the use of sincerity (without wax) to describe fitting into prescribed norms and inherited functions of the culture/family. Propose you start using con-CIS-tency (to play on the assigned identify appeal). Then you’ll have concistency, authenticity, profilicity. ‘Cause why not? Might as well have a fancy PVK word.

[@williambranch4283]

Authenticity covers hypocrisy.

[@Ben.....]

I vote against the above motion.

[@clintd3476]

@@Ben..... you’re out of order, Sir!

[@jameszekveld9916]

The mental health epidemic is a result of the failure of nerve in civil and ecclesiastical bodies.

[@Pseudo_Boethius]

That is exactly correct. We were just having a discussion at work about that very thing the other day.

[@williambranch4283]

@@Pseudo_Boethius Prosperity covers a multitude of sins.

[@DogOneIsOpen]

We opted for a version of love that was too nice. Made for good optics but did a poor job of preserving those in the church.

[@Pseudo_Boethius]

@@williambranch4283 -- Why yes it does! Now shut up and pass that offering plate...

[@jeremyfirth]

I think we should fractal your statement down to the household as well and say that the mental health epidemic is also a result of the failure of nerve in families (especially fathers).

[@Parsons4Geist]

i like Lacans, imaginary symbolic and Real. how ever you break it down to dialectical materialism or idealism or maybe the owl of Minerva takes flight at dusk

[@brycecarlisle5749]

Have I got "profelicity" rightly parsed? It's pro and in projected, felicity, as in happiness, wholeness, soundness? So, it's projecting our image of sound, whole, happy being?

[@spatch1517]

It's profile-icity. Living your life so that it looks good on Facebook.

[@spatch1517]

Profilicity was coined by philosopher Hans-Georg Moeller and he explains it in this video. kzbin.info/www/bejne/qF6WmHpumK2SpaM

[@brycecarlisle5749]

@@spatch1517 thanks!

[@anselman3156]

It's a natural misunderstanding caused by a newly coined word. I didn't get the meaning when PVK initially used it, but I did once he clarified it. It gave rise to my Dad joke: I am very pro-Felicity. She's a lovely woman.

[@williambranch4283]

@@anselman3156 Felix the Cat ... for us seniors ;-)

[@pigetstuck]

Catholic Synod and CRC Synod have very different worries from the laity

[@jimluebke3869]

How so?

[@mickmarshall9254]

Thank you Paul

[@pigetstuck]

CRC Synod 2023 "Let's grow our church!" CRC Synod 2024 "Let's shrink our church!!"

[@rossvg6632]

*galvanize

[@jimluebke3869]

Pruning diseased branches enhances healthy growth.

[@joelslenk7690]

whew - that drug house analogy had way too much detail. Try to employ simplicity - clarity - and brevity in these informative videos. Get this content down to about 13 minutes - instead of 50.

[@williambranch4283]

PVK is squaring a blob

[@jeremyfirth]

You must be new here. Welcome! PVK is often working this stuff out for himself in real time. His videos are frequently him thinking out loud, basically. Not everyone's cup of tea, to be sure.

[@rossmcguinn2256]

You walked into the wrong saloon, bucko.

[@Phlebas9202]

This is disappointingly short. PVK used to make real videos that would hit 3hrs.

[@LunarSongbird]

There's also fast-forward. Press and hold on the video. It goes at 2x speed. You can listen quickly to the asides and get to the point where Paul goes back to the original topic. I myself often have asides triggered by whatever I'm saying. I like hearing them but sometimes I use fast-forward to hear them quickly.