Creator of Node talks Deno 2.0 and the Future of JS

[@ThePrimeTimeagen]

Use code TOPSHELF on coderabbit.ai for 1 month free

[@SIGMA_BLYAT]

I AM NOT G.A.Y, THANKS.

[@soberstudy160]

I like Ryan, he addresses a little problem, solves it, everyone cries and he tries to make it better. He is a developer...

[@Coder.tahsin]

Next we will get Linus Torvalds in prime show 😂

[@VudrokWolf]

He was already interviewed by Prime

[@samarnagar9699]

One day one day

[@sahasananth987]

@@VudrokWolfwhen send link?

[@StingSting844]

You never know

[@sahasananth987]

@ how when?

[@HaxxBlaster]

I can't believe John Lennon made Node and Deno

[@dgo4490]

On the thumbnail looks like the markiplier dude

[@FaZekiller-qe3uf]

@@dgo4490Are you wearing your glasses?

[@danix30001]

He does look like John Lennon and Mark Zuckerberg had a baby together.

[@Iturner72]

incredible things are happening

[@thisgak]

John Dennon?

[@colinstu]

THIS is a guest that knows something. Lovely chat.

[@richardadonnell]

🎯 Key points for quick navigation: 00:00 *Ryan Dahl introduction* 00:14 *Deno 2 release* 00:28 *Node vs Deno* 00:55 *Rust's growing popularity* 01:09 *Rust adoption journey* 02:05 *Programming language shifts* 03:15 *Early JavaScript bindings* 04:21 *Rust’s stability benefits* 05:14 *Rust's package management* 05:42 *Deno's ESM support* 07:18 *Rust project scaling* 09:12 *Unified web standards* 10:07 *JavaScript's longevity predicted* 11:17 *CommonJS compatibility* 12:42 *TypeScript pragmatism* 14:33 *Node's evolution pressure* 16:08 *Standards and deviations* 17:45 *JSR overview introduced* 19:08 *JSR as alternative* 21:20 *Dependency validation improvements* 22:17 *URL-based imports limitations* 23:53 *Centralized server advantages* 24:32 *Versioning simplifies updates* 25:12 *Robust module system* 26:18 *Complexity management tradeoff* 27:28 *Directory-level modules preference* 29:18 *Scope squatting issues* 30:14 *Reserved scope protection* 32:12 *Community-driven oversight* 33:47 *JavaScript trademark ownership* 34:38 *Trademark abandonment concerns* 36:09 *Oracle’s JavaScript trademark* 38:46 *Community petition support* 39:57 *Course copyright issues* 40:23 *Dino 2 marketing approach* 41:07 *Vim and Neovim usage* 42:40 *Early Node demo impact* 44:00 *Event loop explanation* 46:06 *Event-driven server preference* 47:38 *Async programming challenges* 48:09 *Synchronous, async conflict* 48:50 *Web structure similarities* 49:31 *Multiplexed event loops* 50:25 *Rust async complexities* 51:20 *Async signal advantage* 52:14 *Code structuring patterns* 53:38 *Lifetime management workaround* 54:04 *Deno’s permission model* 54:30 *Web-inspired security* 55:11 *Module-level permissions desired* 56:22 *Controlled network access* 57:27 *Deploy sandbox layers* 58:25 *V8 integration complexity* 59:08 *V8 performance praised* 01:00:20 *Rusty V8 project* 01:01:16 *Rusty V8 bindings* 01:03:02 *Optimized function calls* 01:03:59 *Async Rust functions* 01:05:21 *JavaScript language choice* 01:06:04 *Lua simplicity appeal* 01:07:14 *Libuv event loop* 01:08:08 *Libuv widespread adoption* 01:09:00 *Code Rabbit sponsor* 01:09:54 *JavaScript as Assembly* 01:10:49 *JavaScript's long-term future* 01:12:00 *Exclusively JavaScript support* 01:12:27 *Innovation in frameworks* 01:13:54 *Dino's competitive potential* 01:15:01 *Dino’s simplicity advantage* 01:16:19 *Node setup complexity* 01:17:00 *Dino user-friendliness* 01:18:09 *Tooling unification trend* 01:18:38 *Complex bundling challenges* 01:20:13 *Full developer toolkit* 01:21:10 *WebAssembly overhyped* 01:22:32 *Dino wasm integration* 01:24:18 *Wasm unnecessary complexity* 01:25:00 *Bun's active marketing* 01:25:51 *Tech marketing approach* 01:26:57 *Fresh 2 component support* 01:28:24 *Dino 2 simplicity focus* 01:29:07 *JavaScript trademark wrestle* Made with HARPA AI

[@kahnfatman]

Cool. Like a good overview of an master class Js job interview!!!

[@lucsoft]

So many timestamps maybe less would be better

[@fraineralex]

the node.js creator and the two guys from two idiots, one keyboard. LFG

[@mr.togrul--9383]

what a crossover

[@gracjanchudziak4755]

One guy, two js craps.

[@fraineralex]

@@mr.togrul--9383 yeah, we didn’t expect this at all

[@ConcerninglyWiseAlligator]

Careful, Prime might leak his IP- I mean, your IP...

[@codelab7511]

😆

[@JoshuaMelville]

We need more people like Ryan in this space. Thoughtful, articulate, humble. His comments on Twitterverse “drama” make me respect him massively.

[@RustIsWinning]

And less peple like the bun baldie including his crew who make useless posts on a social media platform every day

[@chadjaasofianne310]

Deno/Node creator with the random reaction guy and the nvim guy.

[@allesarfint]

And teej, don't forget about him.

[@AScribblingTurtle]

As a PHP-Dev, who only occasionally has to use Node for small projects, I appreciate Deno so much. Having an entire LSP, Prettier and Compiler Setup in just one executable is awesome. That is its main advantage for me. Easy to use, easy to set up, great set of standard functions and that on all Platforms I have to use. And huge thank you to you Mr. Dahl and everyone else who worked on it.

[@Noxfrolic]

We picked up Deno after the v2 release and I dont see us going with NodeJS or Bun for any future projects. There are some pain points where you'll need a few "patch" scripts for NPM modules, and there are things like Elysia which are just not workable with Deno. The Deno tooling is so great though that it's worth it. Hopefully the STD will evolve to replace things like Hono similar to how Go does it.

[@RustIsWinning]

Elysia has to be the worst code base ever written. I need to know the current state of the author because maybe that could explain it. Someone has an insight on this? Well anyway why would std need something like hono when there is hono already? I'm not a golang gooner so I might be missing something

[@Noxfrolic]

@@RustIsWinning fewer dependencies are better dependencies, but you're right. Hono is great.

[@DennisIvy]

"Pause. let Ryan say something" 😆

[@stanislavzemlyakov5442]

I come from Java/Kotlin world. Now working as a React/Typescript dev. Deno is awesome.

[@memoryleakerz]

Yo Prime, came to comments section to say that I really like that spark you guys got between, you co-ing with teej is really fun for me to watch

[@lucasa8710]

Brazilian elevators mentioned! Let's Go!!!

[@saurabhdiwanji]

I love that you invited Ryan over the show. and the famous first question Rust vs Go. :-) Deno is my favourite....

[@edwardallenthree]

The purchase of Sun Microsystems by Oracle was one of the most disastrous things to happen to OSS, ever. It is a testament to the power of the model that so many open source projects survived this attack.

[@autohmae]

Also a testament of of Sun's technical abilities.

[@Heater-v1.0.0]

Ryan's Node presentation back in 2009 is one of the most impressive I have ever seen. It got this old C/C++ developer onboard with JS and web dev in general. At that time web sockets and webgl were still new kids on the block, with that and node I made a sweet data visualisation for our then start up.

[@luizgrocco]

If Ryan goes after Oracle for this trademark business I would 100% support him.

[@akuoko_konadu]

That intro to TJ was brutal

[@NostraDavid2]

"hey teej, why not join the podcast, so I can roast the SHIT out of you? 😂" - Primeagen, probably.

[@hamm8934]

Thank you for getting back on track with quality guests after the twitter guy

[@cg219]

lmaaoooonot the twitter guy

[@potato-iy2hn]

lmao yeah that guy was weird

[@mscholzdev]

Say it!

[@RustIsWinning]

Which guy? Are we talking about the baldie?

[@fitchmultz]

Yacine was a good interview. GTFO

[@IncompleteTurtle]

Great chat, could definitely feel his bias towards js on the server and using deno obviously which is fair, though it would be nice if you guys challenged some of these ideas. "Why use js on the server when you could just use go etc", would be interesting to hear his take on that sort of question

[@Rohinthas]

You know, I never clicked with JavaScript, but I watched the famous presentations by Ryan when I started working with Node and his pragmatic, competent perspective really helped me to not do the performative Twitter-outrage thing so many people seem to revel in. He is a good rolemodel. I like that he is mindful of conventions and standards and also constantly tries to improve upon them. Good guy, good talk !

[@alanmartin528]

Mad respect, if I could convince my team to switch I would in a heart beat.

[@bgk-]

Regarding registry scopes, I think the AT Protocol has nailed it by allowing domain handles. Allowing people to add a TXT record to their host's DNS removes the manual verification systems that seem to be in place everywhere. Not sure if something like that would work for a module registry, but seems like it could be possible.

[@RustIsWinning]

That sounds horrible for resolving dependencies lol

[@Samjcombs]

Let’s get geohotz next and deep dive tinygrad tinybox

[@RustIsWinning]

@@Samjcombs wrong comment? lol

[@Samjcombs]

@@RustIsWinning well that was odd but likely user error lol. Meant to add on to the one that shouted prime out for the top shelf guests.

[@RustIsWinning]

@@Samjcombs Oh ok that boomer mistake can happen to everyone. Geohot fell off btw. Marcan is better lol

[@iWillAvert]

@5:30 I definitely have to give Rust credit on this. Cargo is really simple to use and powerful and the error reporting is unmatched. That being said, I still prefer Zig overall, but Rust did well on those points.

[@UwU-f2a]

rust compiler error handling is more verbose than zig compiler. i hope zig is stable as soon because i tried 2 zig most populard backend framework, the performance is much lower than rust and go in windows, 2 times lower rps and the other is more than 6 times lower rps lol

[@iWillAvert]

@@UwU-f2a Well lucky me I do not develop on nor for Windows 😂 Rust error messages are very verbose but also well laid out and with colored output. They made it pretty, basically lol.

[@RustIsWinning]

​@@UwU-f2aYourMama is verbose. Also nobody cares about windows LMAO 😂

[@UwU-f2a]

@@RustIsWinning shit rustrash pinky wannabe pro player talking 🤡🤡🤡 shit product cant work in any platform 🤡🤡🤡

[@gdnight]

Prime, it's a bit annoying that you constantly seem to be distracted by something else, just raising a thumb when you hear something you like...

[@taylor-worthington]

JavaScript will not go anywhere for a very long time. The technical feat of WASM as a mature, uh, thing, is absolutely enormous, and it is far from being there. It's on a much longer trajectory. It's not a single language - or even a single ecosystem. It's also not just a web target for a single language - but a universal target for offline systems as well as the web. Surrounding that is all these elements that will have to meet WASM half way. It's not a business that will fail per se - just fall stagnant at times. It might bomb I guess, but its technical premise will keep on coming back around.

[@xen2297]

Damn prime/tj. Your net catching some real big fish, I love it. Uncle Bob, DHH, Laravel guy, Ryan Dahl. Next step the OG React Andy? Evan You? You should get the creator of Rust on.

[@Samjcombs]

@@xen2297 let’s get geohotz on and deep dive tinygrad and tinybox! Petaflops for the people!

[@krzysztofkwiecinski148]

When talking about indexing arrays from 0 instead of 1 I'm recollecting anecdote considering polish mathematician (Most likely Banach) counting his suitcases on railway station - zero, one, two - all three. I believe it was told by my high school math teacher, when introducing indexing of sequence terms.

[@granatun]

Ryan is goated. Great programmer with great insights.

[@Salloom99]

6:20 Rust is fun. the GOAT said it himself

[@RustIsWinning]

Yep and that's why Deno is winning! 🦀

[@macerdough]

chat needs to grow tf up

[@skuwamy]

Well Prime's viewer are people who loved to hate other languages. Their top hated language is Rust.

[@macerdough]

@@skuwamy wdym, they love rust.

[@alexkizer639]

ECMA should steer JS towards TS. Aside from additional language features (pattern matching, pipe operator, etc.), they should simultaneously focus on another track embracing gradual structural typing, which is the perfect layer on top of JS.

[@EvanBoldt]

12:45 Prime quietly seething not to say JSDoc

[@Jabberwockybird]

I got upset when he said TS is the way to go. I could not be an interviewer and quietly let people cook.

[@cyberdron]

@@Jabberwockybird why hate TS?

[@Jabberwockybird]

@@cyberdron I hate that people say it's the only way to go. It's the hubris that I dislike. Also I hate the extra build step, when you could use JSDoc and not need the extra build step.

[@SilasDuarte-e9k]

​​@@cyberdron Ecmascript is superior to TS

[@vovacha5817]

Great interview, I enjoyed it a lot!

[@dipikeshkumar1538]

I just realised Node and Deno are of same letters rearranged

[@comoyun]

ikr it's like denode-ing or making node simpler.

[@7heMech]

We need Jarred creator of Bun next.

[@us4tiyny4n]

He been already on this channel multiple times.

[@doezage]

With all due respect bun that guy

[@RustIsWinning]

​@@anonymousalexander6005Did you just compare the great Linus with the bun baldie who achieved nothing and will achieve nothing? Please do not ever do that again.

[@PaulSebastianM]

The big mistake was not taking inspiration from other module systems like ML ones. They work so well for JS. I think it's part of the reason why Melange, ReScript, ReasonML, PureScript, etc., works so well.

[@manofacertainrage856]

1:12:00 paraphrasing: To the guy that executed the funniest marketing video for a software product in a long, long time: "Do you realize you're not sh*ttalking enough?"

[@Jabberwockybird]

37:41. Just call your thing ESR and call it a day. If I was going to make a new framework, I would just avoid the trademark worries and call it Jabbascript. Perfect name for fat bloated frameworks

[@JohnDoe-bu3qp]

Web Assembly is in interesting topic, I'd love to watch a discussion about it with whatever guests might make sense.

[@keybraker]

In general I am very excited with what deno2 is, it makes typescript to a proper language you could actually use (lol). But I have just found my first problem with deno2 which is some voice connections are not yet implemented. This is a major blow and disappointment as it was meant to be production ready...

[@damnloveless]

was able to watch live, great video!!

[@cag1]

when Folke?

[@khalilshew4924]

excited for this one prime! Didnt get to catch it live

[@metin4yt]

33:35 but what if an established package, actively maintained with name X is on there, then a company named X starts building a JS library for their business, what happens with the original package? Will they have the right for their name? This sounds like it can turn into a Domain kind of battle. I think a better approach would be to use namespaces. You are a company? Sure, you get the @company namespace, then you can publish as many packages as you want under that namespace.

[@simonhartley9158]

It's an interesting suggestion. Maybe people will get into the habit of install @deno/deno rather than just install deno. I have seen companies getting bought out and then you either have to always use the legacy company name, or the users have to know that from a certain version the namespace is different.

[@metin4yt]

@@simonhartley9158 maybe they can add a "symlink" or something. Deno/deno would be a mirror of Buyer/deno I'm more concerned about the individual contributor than companies tbh

[@metin4yt]

@@simonhartley9158 maybe a "symlink" kind of approach would work here. If deno/deno gets acquired, then it would be an identical mirror for buyer/Deno. I'm more concerned about the individual contributor than the companies tbh.

[@crowlkats]

discussions like this are exactly what the JSR moderation commitee will discuss and adress once it is established

[@edwardallenthree]

​@@crowlkatsthank you for actually completely answering the question. What all of us want as end users is for humans to be making these decisions based on what is best for the community, and it sounds like JSR is doing that.

[@ProgrammingWIthRiley]

6:52 Yup. It takes longer and longer. Sacches is a good tool to help with caching.

[@bstoynov]

“Pause let Ryan say something” What a fucking menace

[@cnava9389]

10 minutes in and this guy is preaching the good word

[@avalagum7957]

What Rust version is being used in Deno?

[@RustIsWinning]

Always the latest version

[@jackof4ll]

I think it will get rewritten in Jai or Odin once the build times grow too large.

[@crowlsyong]

lol 0:47 reading the bracketed script items XD

[@RomanAvdeevX]

Idk why, but I can't launch Nuxt project with Deno

[@fille.imgnry]

I am happy this human exist! Thanks Universe!

[@KeatonForrest-wu4jb]

Truly top shelf for this one

[@kenwood7195]

Where have you been?

[@bossRODTV]

Nice episode as always

[@javiasilis]

The biggest cancer I've faced with JavaScript in the recent years is the module system. ESM, CJS, and I'd give edge functions a third type (as it shouldn't have node dependencies). It just makes the process of integrating certain technologies painful. It took me 3 weeks part-time month to get Vite, Remix in a monorepo fashion.

[@ibrahimhussain3248]

I am a dotnet dev but I am very interested in deno.

[@hri7566]

he also made odne

[@somcho]

finally you took my advice and brought ryan on 😏

[@ProgrammingWIthRiley]

5:30 This is exactly why I don’t use c++

[@not_zafarali]

I miss primes daily uploads.

[@kainplays]

C++ is the GOAT never going anywhere

[@RobertWinkky]

Ryan killed it. GJ team

[@bahram_kb]

Love your content and excited for this one!

[@Enzoss100]

i have literally been waiting for this

[@Zizaco]

13:08 that's how python works BTW (optional type hinting/syntax). So that would be a logical evolution for JS.

[@Lemmy4555]

Many types in python have runtime impact actually, it's nothing like typescript

[@NostraDavid2]

​@@Lemmy4555except the type hinting has 0 effect on the code itself. It's why we use mypy and whatnot to make the type hinting as accurate as we can, but if I want to make EVERYTHING an int type, I can. Even when during runtime all those variables won't be ints.

[@Lemmy4555]

@@NostraDavid2 Yes, until you start extending enum or protocol. Honestly Python went in the wrong direction in my opinion, type hints are great, but all the runtime utils to do many other things are horrible. In typescripy you can "type cast" using "as", this will allow you to solve some problems sometimes, in python you just can't, you have a real cast function that does real stuff and may cause more headache

[@cyberwoodoo9466]

denutzz

[@kasper369]

that does it, learning neovim

[@klirmio21]

Why it took over a month to post the video

[@kapilramwani8417]

Thankyou for doing these

[@Pedro-Chang]

That ending was so awkward 😂😃

[@maxwebstudio]

The Chat alone is always worth the watch 😆😆😆😆

[@devinweaver758]

Deno is the future? Yes, please!

[@stdmpa]

1:22:15 OMG CloudFlare!

[@Micha-cc8hf]

there is not only a problem with using require toghether with import there is a problem that language services allows to use __filename in esm and later it sucks in runtime and it is not direct equivalent to import.meta.url. Bundlers fails totally with setting static abs path (facepalm) where it should be absolute from webroot ehhh. There is needed some converter which will do it correctly, which runs against the code and replaces all commonjs into esm. I know I can be done manully, but you know...

[@aelabassi]

your portfolio project should include a node or deno clone if you want a senior position lol.

[@NanoSpicer]

Why does he look like Markiplier from 2 years ago?

[@crowlsyong]

Ryan + Prime = Like

[@qoombert]

how tf did 498 people watch this in 8 minutes

[@us4tiyny4n]

views = allUserViewTime / videoLength

[@IlhanNegis]

aah chat demo, i was dabbling in Jaxer (extra points if you know it) back then, i remember saying myself yeeaa, that's it

[@peanutcelery]

I was waiting for Prime to say “JavaScript on the server was a mistake” but it never came 😔

[@hydrobolix3365]

🤘

[@sabeerbikba8585]

When I see this person in my mind "That was mistake" but didn't know he made thousands of full stack developer

[@dipi71]

Didn't learn Node, won't learn Deno. The only ECMAscript I use is five lines to place the text cursor in the search field. Keep it simple. Cheers!

[@Gorr1995]

Next we will get done

[@fakebizPrez]

Woof. Bring back Flash.

[@signalsensei]

haha no one in the past has ever thought developers will be fighting for module system....

[@ashiqnuaiman]

💡Go:Flutter,Jaspr😉

[@fredoandrianaivo4910]

Great talks

[@_parassolanki]

Loved it

[@thejezzi5219]

Since deno2 came out I don't use anything else for all the javascript crap just because of the tooling

[@billybest5276]

ha i do the same thing with global state, I like this guy.

[@tambow44]

watching this on IE btw.

[@klex3905]

I swear.. Whoever can solve or significantly reduce the compile times of Rust will still be poor, but known by the world.

[@RustIsWinning]

You have a machine from the stone age? Compile times are fast nowadays.

[@VictorNoguera-lv3te]

8 minutes is a low price to pay for correctness and performance.

[@edwardallenthree]

Was Prime star struck?

[@RustIsWinning]

The bun baldie could never 😂