Critiquing Deadlink & The Roguelike Genre

[@GrubyEntertainment]

Thanks for a well-thought-out review! We strongly agree with most of the points mentioned, and analyses like these help us grow and make better games. Keep up the excellent work, TelekinesticMan!

[@telekinesticman]

Thank you so much! I wasn't expecting the developers themselves to see this, especially not right after I released it. You guys did a great job with Deadlink and I wish you the best of luck in the future.

[@poundcake681]

Class act Gruby Entertainment!🙏

[@snwmn9192]

It's so weird hearing someone say that all things I like in games are things they don't like. this must be what CoD players think when I tell them I hate slower paced "realistic" military shooters. At any rate, solid video! I'd probably disagree on the degree to witch luck impacts runs in games like deadlink or Risk of Rain 2, but if you're starting from a place of not liking roguelites/rpg's it makes sense. Any who cheers keep doing what you're doing

[@b.w.s3165]

Same exact thoughts here to be honest. I guess it just goes to show that it's good for videogames to vary and only appeal to certain audiences, because it's impossible to appeal to everyone's tastes. Doesn't necessarily mean things one audience dislikes but another likes are bad though.

[@iconica9516]

no I think RoR2 does have a fair luck aspect some items you just really need to survive

[@mathewhosier9739]

Yes, completely agree, leveling and loot are my favorite mechanics in games

[@raven75257]

@@iconica9516 Not anymore. Since the first DLC release, most items were buffed and now in a good place. The only way to lose to luck now, is if you're having the worst run ever and the game refuses to give you literally anything good. Which, obviously, does not apply to 99% of all runs

[@tragos9414]

Maaan what a great video. I remember you talking about Matthewmatosis in your Frontiers critique and I can definitely feel the influence here, and I mean that in the most positive way. I love when people actually treat the medium with respect, while also not being pretentious about it. A game is a complex art piece even when it doesn’t resemble a movie, and it deserves to be treated as such. Definitely looking forward to more from you.

[@DONUTDONUTDONUTDONUTDONUT]

Really great video. Helped elucidate why even in the ones I liked, I’ve never quite clicked with the roguelike mechanics themselves.

[@liqvo]

For the record I think most of the points you raise are valid, but I also think that the problem isn't necessarily that the design of roguelikes is inherently poor, but rather that you're simply not the target audience; on a few points (especially about permadeath and luck-based runs) I had a very strong feeling of "but this is exactly why I like roguelikes!" Some really subjective points of my own incoming: As an avid enjoyer of them, for me what makes roguelikes distinct from other games is the way they can be picked up, played and put down however many times you want and whenever you want - they don't demand your time in the same way a lot of linear games do. It makes time management a lot easier when I play a game in 20 minute to an hour increments I also love the idea of permadeath - in a lot of action games and especially RPGs I always feel like the difficulty is not "real" - I can just go back to the last save or checkpoint and try again, and that doesn't feel that fun to me; repeating one section over and over is incredibly boring to me But I think the main thing I like about them is the entertainment factor. In a lot of linear games I feel like a lot of my time is wasted on tedium. So many games have cool mechanics but are drawn back by wasting my time with an uninteresting story (*cough* borderlands 3 *cough*), arbitrary level progression (the same complaint you had about the dark souls series, which I strongly agree with) or artificial padding. Well-designed roguelikes on the other hand have an incredible advantage in that they are often non-stop action at an absurdly fast pace (which for me is incredibly fun and stimulating, further exacerbated with the sword of damocles dangling above my head in the form of permadeath) which for lack of a better term puts my brain into a very pleasant overdrive, and the variety inherent in the genre keeps things fresh - while at the same time making the game incredibly easy to jump into as a new player Should also be noted I think the best form of roguelike meta-progression [between runs] is the kind that increases gameplay variety in increasingly wacky ways (to provide a new challenge after you mastered the previous mechanics) but doesn't make the player more powerful It's an amazing genre for couch coop, because you have a ton of concentrated action with no obligation to commit to the game - you're done after 20 minutes, no harm done, no friend loses out on story or progression or anything else because the next time we play together we'll be at the same power level starting from stage 1 again, while also being a slightly different experience thanks to the procedural generation shuffling things up a bit. There's nothing quite like a chaotic game of Risk of Rain 2 or Streets of Rogue with 3 friends to goof around with All in all I think it's a genre meant for the type of person that likes to pick up an arcadey game, play for a bit and not worry about continuing it All that being said I think all your points are very fair and I won't judge you for not liking the same games I do :)

[@telekinesticman]

Thank you for the comment! I totally understand your perspective and I think it's great that roguelikes can provide that kind of experience. I agree that permadeath can be a great way to increase tension and player investment, but as I said in the video, it can also make the process of actually completing these games feel very tedious and repetitive. I do feel that a lot of these games suffer from artificial difficulty modifiers, and would probably be better off with no progression at all if they really wanted to be fair. So many games are reliant on manipulative extrinsic motivators that I don't see this as a likely outcome, however. RPG mechanics have invaded most corners of this industry, and it's rare to see even the most hardcore of action games avoid including these systems entirely. I hope this video doesn't come across as just me whining about a genre that isn't for me, and can instead be seen as a thorough explanation of *why* I avoid this genre 99% of the time, and what kind of tweaks would make it more appealing to me personally.

[@liqvo]

​@@telekinesticman Yeah I definitely agree on that *a lot* of roguelikes don't really capture what makes this sort of game good or enjoyable (especially the recent wave of horde survival vampire survivors clone type of things) but when it's done right it really clicks for me - Noita for example is my favorite game of ...I think my favorite game in general. But so much of it relies on sandboxy experimenting that I can't imagine it as anything but permadeath; it just makes the consequences much more tangible I've also recently been playing Voidigo a lot and it seems to be free of most of your complaints and a lot of fun if you're looking for another one to check out Also just for the record I think your video is absolutely great :). I think you raise a lot of very valid points and they're very well argued which compelled me to comment in the first place - I also agree on a lot of them, I just don't think they're quite as genre-wide of an issue as it seems at first glance

[@Mister_Don888]

I totally agree with you on roguelike level design. A hand crafted level is gonna be much better than a randomly generated one. And I’m someone who enjoys some Roguelikes, but not all of them.

[@AdventureHunters2013]

Thank you for this in depth analysis/explanation on the genre of Rogue-lites! I personally really like a Rogue-Lite that lacks Meta progression, especially those that are highly systemic. But this video helps highlight issues in the genre that continue to perpetuate the design of present (and potentially future) games.

[@jackothelantern]

Been recently enjoying and binging your videos, but this one doesn't gel with me. I've never been a fan of fast paced shoot 'em ups, but over the years Enter the Gungeon has become one of my favorite games of all time. At the beginning I was complete crap. I couldn't comprehend what was happening, and I could barely get to the second stage. Even though it felt like I was throwing myself to a brick wall, I kept playing. Not to win (or as you put it "gamble my time away"), but to see the new merchants, weird weapons and items that you can unlock. It took me half a year of casually playing it to finally beat the final boss, and it was amazing. THEN I LEARNED THAT THERE WAS STILL A HALF OF THE GAME THAT I HAVE NEVER SEEN BEFORE. Immediately trying to beat the game with every run, and throwing yourself at a boss that always wrecks you is IMO the worst way to play roguelites and roguelikes. Finding new items, and then experimenting with them to see new enemies and locations, are the main reason I like this genre. I don't care if the levels are handcrafted to give me a deliberately designed scenario. I like to be in situations where I'm always on the losing side, and the only thing that saves me is my knowledge of the game's mechanics, and my quick critical and forward thinking. This video felt like you taking the weaknesses of Deadlink and stretching it as a genre wide issue. You mention the lack of risk reward in these games, while Risk of Rain and Binding of Isaac are the perfect examples of this. You mention how procedural levels are bad, while showing Risk of Rain 2, a game with fixed levels that only have certain parts of them change. You mention "artificial upgrades" and upgrades that only make numbers go up, while most action rougelites actively try to hide the numbers from you, and instead focus on giving you new items and weapons to experiment with to make use of the number being big. Not to mention what about actual roguelikes? You know those old looking top down rpgs that have player freedom and deep interaction with its mechanics and its world like no other genre. Cogmind, Nethack, Dwarf Fortress, Caves of Qud, RimWorld. Should we just label those as luck based meaningless games, cause they are random and have procedural levels?

[@earic2499]

Some good points here. I will say though, I think some of this video seems to indirectly frame the endpoint of roguelikes as getting a single good run so you can move on from the game. In truth, titles in the genre which I enjoy are often more about mastering the core systems to the point where you can win every run than trying to hit that single jackpot. I’ve completed three save files and hundreds of runs in The Binding of Isaac, but I still religiously play it years later. What keeps me coming back is how much agency you gain over the game’s systems with experience and knowledge.

[@telekinesticman]

Yeah I see what you mean, in that sense it would be not that different to replaying any other game, I suppose.

[@iconica9516]

I agree a lot but for completely different games I love tboi but at some point for me, it has just become that pattern of "I just want to win to unlock X" but the more I've dwelled on it the more I've realized that it's not even the games fault, it's just my genuine burnout from isaac from constant fails and boredom I'm just waiting to get it on PC so I can unlock everything and play with mods

[@boi2192]

Honestly fun to see someone criticise deadlink for things i like about it. Makes me realise how much movement shooter gambling brainrot i truly have.

[@telekinesticman]

I'm just happy to see people watching this video 🥲 I'm pretty proud of it but I knew it wouldn't perform very well compared to my other stuff. Same with the Hi-Fi RUSH video. Ah well.

[@boi2192]

@@telekinesticman you should play roboquest

[@swan-cloud]

generally good video, but i wanna offer a defense of permadeath while permadeath is there for tension, yes, it also forces the player to learn the entire game, the tedium that you associate with it are prevalent in bad games that aren't capable of using permadeath properly most arcade games understood the concept, with score systems so you can keep learning how to squeeze points from earlier areas while still tackling later ones, this makes it so that doing it all again isn't just a tedious runback, but something actually worth doing if you don't care about scores, resident evil (and survival horror as a whole) grasps this concept really well with resource management imagine you die and lose around 30 minutes of progress in just about any RE, while yeah it was tense before you lost all that progress, once you actually decide to get back to the same point, your knowledge of enemy placement and behavior will help you conserve ammo and healing, helping you later on the section you had trouble with, and already giving you a taste of that satifying mastery to be fair most roguelites don't do anything close to this, i'm defending permadeath more from an arcade/survival horror perspective, some old roguelikes do get it though, like downwell, nuclear throne, teleglitch, enter the gungeon (though this one does have "content") and for a somewhat recent example, star of providence

[@willjames9]

That point you mentioned about people seemingly wanting games to be nothing more than content to spend time on is something that's been on my mind for a while. The amount of time you spend on a game doesn't always equate to enjoyment (this is coming from a former destiny player...). It's okay to just be done with a game, happy to have spent the time you did with it. And it's okay to replay a game simply because you want to. Games nowadays do feel like they're fighting each other for your attention and time, just as social media sites are. I reckon people who don't think games can be art just haven't played a truly special game that connected with them (maybe because they're too busy grinding out another battle pass....).

[@GojiGuy]

When we developed Dawn of the Monsters, we received a lot of feedback that people wanted an "endless" mode to keep playing the game. So we created an "arcade" mode that has high replayability due to challenge, and powerups between each stage. We simply offered the player a choice: The powerups between stages can be the set chosen by the design team for a balanced experience, or they can be procedurally generated from a large pool instead, leading to potential synergies you couldn't get otherwise. i feel like it was a good way to just sidestep the issue and offer the best of both worlds for each player. Even though I much prefer classic arcade/action design (i.e. no randomness) I actually dug playing the "rogue" mode!

[@telekinesticman]

Thank you for the insight! I love hearing directly from developers. I think making these things optional is a perfect compromise.

[@ApocHedgie]

As someone who tends to enjoy roguelikes generally, I find it hard to disagree with all the points you bring up. I really enjoyed Hades for example, but I feel like it could have been amazing even without the roguelike elements. Another excellent video, no big surprise. When you gonna tackle the Frontiers DLC?

[@telekinesticman]

Banned for saying the "F" word.

[@UnBR0k3enAngel]

Ironically enough, Hades can respect your time by using the much criticized God Mode. I have about 100 hours of Hades on my PS4, and only completed the game about 5 times. I had no idea the plot actually finishes because I just figured the same things keep happening. Now that I figured out the game eventually "ends", I replayed it on PC, with God Mod enabled, and saw just about every scenario in about 45 hours.

[@TheiviousRaccoonus]

Another Telekinistic Banger

[@Xavier95621]

Great work as usual. If only sonic had a roguelike you could slam on lmao Can't wait for more.

[@Tacom4ster]

Neat essay though I'm a roguelite fan, will like to check out the games you mentioned

[@progress_games]

Heavily disagree but an entertaining video... Keep on sharing opinions, no matter how many people give you shit for it!

[@kimwhite7543]

Hey man just want to say love your videos that sonic frontiers critique is really great and inspiring to me be more critical on the things i love, i like what your thoughts on kirby and the forgotten land keep being you bro.

[@telekinesticman]

Thank you! I only played the demo for Forgotten Land and found it to be a bit boring, and I hated how it ran at 30fps. I remember thinking the same thing about Star Allies, too.

[@kimwhite7543]

@@telekinesticman oh thank you for responding

[@SkylerStuebe]

Sorry but as someone who prefers rogue-lites/rogue-likes over other games I realized for almost every section of this video I have a critique... Luck (5:22) Luck in games is not inherently bad as it adds to the replayability of a given game (Note: A rogue-lite with an amazing luck system is Enter The Gungeon) Grinding and Stats (7:27) Oh no grinding in my RPG how will I deal with this! Oh wait other games exist. Numbers and Grinding are a integral part of RPG games as a necessary piece of their game design. So this section is less a critique and more complaining about not likening RPG's. (Note on 11:20 On a logical level maybe after a boss deals more than half your health in ANY game maybe go to a deferent area before trying the boss again. Just saying) Procedural Level Design (13:38) Examples of clean and great area generation in games include: Deep Rock Galactic,Enter The Gungeon, The Binding of Isaac and Hades. Why these examples you may ask? Well they all include the positives you mention in Deadlink. Permadeath (16:24) The most hated thing in all rogue-lite's and rogue-likes since the inception of the genre itself but also the most integral. Permadeath in rogue-like video games is an essential and necessary part of the genre because it provides a sense of challenge, excitement, and unpredictability that is unique to the genre. The fact that the game ends when the player dies adds a level of intensity to every decision that the player makes, as one mistake can lead to irreversible consequences. This creates a sense of urgency and adrenaline rush that is not found in other video games, as the player must constantly stay alert and be mindful of their actions. Additionally, permadeath also adds to the replayability of the game, as no two playthroughs will be exactly the same. "Content" and Suggestions (21:57) wait. no. did you just say that most rouge-likes/lites have low artistic integrity? no that cant be it. holy shit it is, dam. whelp example time :) only 10 tho 1. Dead Cells - The hand-drawn art style of Dead Cells is incredibly detailed and adds depth and dimension to the game's dark, atmospheric environments. 2. Hades - Hades features stunning character designs and fluid animations that bring the game's Greek mythological world to life. 3. Slay the Spire - The minimalist art style of Slay the Spire complements the game's strategic gameplay, emphasizing clarity and focus. 4. Don't Starve - Don't Starve's Tim Burton-esque art style is creepy and charming at the same time, making for a truly unique visual experience. 5. Children of Morta - The hand-drawn art style of Children of Morta is warm and inviting, drawing players into the game's familial story. 6. Enter the Gungeon - Enter the Gungeon features hilarious and intricately-designed gun-themed enemies and environments that keep the game fresh and engaging. 7. Risk of Rain 2 - The colorful and dynamic visuals of Risk of Rain 2 perfectly capture the game's chaotic and high-energy gameplay. 8. The Binding of Isaac: Rebirth - The grotesque yet oddly endearing art style of The Binding of Isaac: Rebirth is a key part of the game's dark humor and overall mood. 9. Darkest Dungeon - Darkest Dungeon's gritty and gothic art style perfectly captures the game's immersive and challenging dungeon-crawling experience. 10. FTL: Faster Than Light - FTL's pixel art style is simple yet effective, allowing players to focus on the game's strategic gameplay and immersive sci-fi world. In conclusion, the rogue-like genre is all about challenging players to take calculated risks, make difficult decisions, and ultimately emerge victorious in the face of overwhelming odds.

[@SkylerStuebe]

And yes before you say I know this vid is more of an opinion piece after reading other comments but in the video with the tone it sounds more like a list of reasons to objectively dislike the genre. (and your last "point" is just a plain out lie tbh)

[@muggs9977]

I second this but I do feel that you said most of this in a condescending way. That isn't to say the video itself isn't also condescending, though.

[@SkylerStuebe]

@@muggs9977 ok cool pfp btw

[@telekinesticman]

If you're going to dismiss my opinions because you claim that I'm presenting them as fact, then I can't take you seriously. Please don't put words in my mouth, either. Most of the things you're complaining about are things I never actually said, or were already addressed in the video anyway.

[@aortaplatinum]

In a recent RebelTaxi video, Pan Pizza describes roguelikes as an evolution of the arcade style formula, with randomization being the factor that makes them worth the higher price compared to a few quarters or a few dollars in the case of a home release. And this SOUNDS fantastic, it opened my eyes to the potential of a genre I previously ignored... but when you compared it to "gambling with your time", I instantly lost what interest had been gained from RT's video and fell into full-on dislike of roguelikes as a concept. I very recently, FULLY realized that, yeah, I WILL die. No matter what, be it tomorrow or in 60 years, my body is made of physical matter that will succumb to entropy, I do not have infinite time. To waste the time I have on something so trivial as a hit of dopamine when I finally finish a version of a randomly generated game after 20 hours of failed attempts is laughable and ridiculous. TL;DR thanks for keeping me from throwing away hundreds of hours of my life on experiences with such low value. It's just nowhere near worth it.

[@fluffy_tail4365]

I much relate to your points (I prefer sekiro to DS/ER for the lack of the meh RPG elements, prefer metroid items to castlevania's RPG trinkets and so on), and in general I bounced away from most rouguelites (Hades, gungeon, Ror2)...but I went in with the expectation of liking them well enough, because there is one roguelite I adore and that's the og, The Binding of Isaac. I think that tboi works for me because it is very centereed on gameplay altering items over stats altering ones, so the challenge feels more like trying to adapt a random assortment of toys into a playstyle that works for you. I understand that is the main selling point of any roguelite but isaac is the only one where I felt it. In Ror variation between any item is minimal compared to how many items alter you in tboi. Plus in isaac meta progression is locked to widening and deepening the possibility space (characters, more areas, more items, more consumables) compared to the meh number increase of hades and others (and added heat systems that basically ask you to metaphorically step on your own toes for making the game challenging again). In isaac i feel like the roguelite part adds to the experience, meanwhile in other titles I feel like it is just a meh addition over an arcade title (risk of rain) or straight up almost deterimental to the overall thing (hades basically I never got to see all the story because at a certain point I just lost interest). I am not sure how many genres can multiply thmselves like in isaac, the only thing that comes to mind are Pokemon Emerald Rogue, a romhack that makes...pokemon into a roguelite, where the mix and match nature of pokemon and the hidden mechanics of the battles shines through,tho it is a bit fatigued over being a number rpg. Another one that does not exist would be megaman battle network I think, as it is a better version of pokemon in terms of battle mechanics imho. Many chips have unique and weird effects and people do pvp tournaments still, so having a pve version of that (experimenting with folders you haven't tried yet without having to go through a mediocre jrp with a catatonic pacing) would be amazing. There is one step from eden that tried to be that but it didn't work for me. I felt like it expanded on the battle mechanics in a way that didn´t work with what MMBN was going for and in general it felt way too hectic compared to the inspiration.I hard some of my issues were addressed with patches so maybe I should try it again.

[@Xavier95621]

Have another comment to boost discovery thanks to the dreaded algorithm choking the spreading of videos nowadays. I remember simpler times.

[@alessandroferrucci6087]

I've found your channel yesterday and you make really interesting videos! Have you played Hades? I'm not particularly fond of roguelikes but that one in particular is SO GOOD and uses the typical structure of the genre for its excellent storytelling which really makes it shine imo, I'd strongly recommend checking it out if you haven't already.

[@telekinesticman]

Thank you! I've heard a lot of similar things about Hades, I'm interested in having a look at it one day. Glad you've enjoyed the videos!

[@crashcan2583]

I love how the entirity of people who played Deadlink agrees Iskra is the best boss in the game despite not being the final boss ahah

[@chapelofthestonemason6341]

I'm curious what your stance is on spelunky 1 and/or 2 if you've played it. While it does rely on procedural level generation and some luck (shops), as you've no doubt heard, what is primarily gained from previous runs is the players' experience with the games mechanics. Love the channel btw, great stuff! 👍

[@telekinesticman]

Thanks! I haven't played Spelunky so I'm not sure what I'd think of it, and I've only seen tiny glimpses of gameplay here and there over the years.

[@AlphaDaArtist]

Despise loving some games in the roguelike/lite genre, even my love for them is starting to dwindle down... Not because of your points (even though you do bring up some fair ones), but because I've noticed how samey most of them can be. I can't tell you the many Dungeon Crawling or twin stick shooter Roguelikes/lites, and even Vampire Survivor clones I've seen when looking around for some others to try out. I'll still play the ones I enjoy a lot and will look into Deadlink, but I don't think roguelikes/lites are hitting it for me enough to look for new ones anymore.

[@Astro_Crunch]

It took a couple tries of various Roguelikes before I came to the conclusion that I just straight up don't like them lol. I really wanted to like some of them, but playing them always felt like I had been put on a treadmill. There are a few that I've enjoyed, but not enough to change my opinion of the genre. As a bit of silver lining, Roguelikes made me more aware of how I spend my time with video games. I used to try to complete all of my games because of some sunken cost fallacy in my mind, but I realized that grinding away at a game that I don't even enjoy doesn't make my purchase any more worth it. At that point, I've then wasted my money _and_ my time.

[@telekinesticman]

I really like this comment. You've basically summed up the thesis of this video through your own experience not too different from my own. Part of my goal with this video was to make people reflect on their time spent in these games and perhaps reach this same conclusion.

[@Astro_Crunch]

​@@telekinesticman thank you! I also really liked the parallel you drew between the popularity of Roguelikes and the perception of video games as "content" first and art second. I never thought of that before. Video games are definitely in a weird position artistically since they also have a lot in common with more utilitarian products like tools or software with more practical purposes. Like, I think it's more common for a video game to have glitches bad enough to render it unplayable than it is for a novel to have spelling errors so bad that it's unreadable. In that sense, some people might view video games less as art and more as software whose sole purpose is holding their attention by any means necessary. Just like a piece of video editing software could be considered bad if it lacks crucial features, a game could be considered bad because it doesn't have enough "content."

[@PointingouttheObvious]

For me I love the luck factor in a rouge likes its kinda why I have fallen in love with baulders gate 3. Ig eat it’s not for everyone but it’s a different type of game than linear experiences that I already enjoy.

[@iconica9516]

i dont think i really disagreed with most of the points here but i dont think i really agreed either i love rougelikes/lites games love other genre games which i feel would suck with these elements it really does come down to both design and taste at the end of the day some rougelikes i hate a lot and some i think are great its a genre like no other, solely because you have to do so many things right and if one or two of them arent done well, everything is ruined its one of the genres that are filled with gunk but still has its gems

[@fluentgamer8611]

I’m sold

[@fernandodavid9495]

6:54 omg it's walter white, funniest shit i have ever seen

[@sle3pyheadart]

good video

[@Doktario_Mystario]

21:05 shady? for 1 you literally said that it fundamentally doesn't make sense to save player progress and 2 there is nothing wrong with an arcade expierence, people still like the "arcade feel"

[@mathewhosier9739]

The only games i play are RPGs and games with RPG mechanics, so the only roguelikes i play are the ones with RPG mechanics, deadlink doesnt really feel like a game for me, i love most soulslikes but i hated sekiro, and the only metroidvanias i play are the more RPG style ones like castlevania, i couldnt get into hollow knight, if i cant level my character and aquire more powerful gear then im not really interested

[@jknifgijdfui]

theres 2 games that really make me feel the difference between roguelikes and non roguelikes ubermosh omega and vampire survivors one is a very simple very hard game with incredibly short runs focused on getting a high score and getting better at dodging bullets and killing everything as optimally as you can while vampire survivors is also a game about becoming a walking ball of death but the runs are so much longer and is much more focused on luck and getting upgrades it doesnt want you to get better at the game it wants you to get stronger by getting in game junk its basically just cookie clicker at some point except cookie clicker at least has bigger numbers plus every other indie twin stick shooter is a roguelike and it is so tiring i just want smash tv again

[@alfabjornenco2922]

In the "luck" segment you mention that "the player isn't making decisions based upon risk or reward", I'm sorry but this line kinda rubs me the wrong way. Deadlink has this maybe to a less extent than the most popular rogue-likes (which I would categorize as Binding of Isaac, Risk of Rain 2, Dead Cells and Hades) but there are still elements of this, such as the most powerful augments having additional negatives. Resource management is also still a thing in this game even if ammo is practically infinite, while chosing to take an implant or a credit room etc. you are weighing your chances of getting a synergistic implant after your next room or the existance of a shop so you can heal. This statement is more of a gross oversimplification if compared to other roguelikes, while I haven't played enough Hades to have anything interesting to say about it, I do have some experience with others. You showcase Risk of Rain 2 earlier in the video while talking about "Enabling the player to camp far away from the action", a game where you are constantly on the clock forced to play aggressively to not get overwhelmed and every chest you open have to be weighed carefully versus how long time it will take. You showcase Dead Cells while talking about RNG (just before the Risk/Reward segment), Dead Cells is probably the roguelike which rewards skill the most, with a focus on rewarding you for not taking hits and clearing levels fast. Dead Cells also features amazingly clear attack telegraphs and I've never once felt cheated by RNG in that game. Then there's classics like The Binding of Isaac which in my opinion should almost be considered a turn based strategy game. Seeing this game played by a newer player it will look like a game in which you sometimes get overpowered and sometimes lose almost exclusively to bad luck. Seeing this game played by a experienced player on the other hand will transform it into a game of "weighing dice". There are suddenly so many interesting decisions you can make where skipping items, killing certain bosses, killing certain NPC's all carefully adjust the chances and outcomes of certain events making it a very intricate game of exactly risk/reward. While even though it may not sound like it, I actually DO agree with many of your points concerning Deadlink, but it sounds like most of the negatives you ascribe to roguelikes just comes from the fact that you do not find them fun. Saying roguelikes do not respect your time is baffling to me when, disregarding maybe boomer-shooters and arcade games, they have some of the best gameplay density you can find anywhere. This doesn't mean I don't enjoy the "arty" games, Outer Wilds is my favorite game of all time, but if I have 20 minutes to kill and want to feel it's time well spent I'll be booting up Dead cells, or slay the spire, maybe even deadlink. Sorry this got a bit long, thank you for coming to my TED-talk.

[@jackothelantern]

I wanted to make a comment about RoR 2 and how managing your time in that game is a prime example of a risk reward system, but you hit the nail on the head there.

[@mathewhosier9739]

You do realize that every individual piece of a procedurally generated world was hand crafted by a person, its just assembled differently everytime you play

[@zsasz4370]

Commenting for algo

[@megasoniczxx]

I think the thing that gets me the most with roguelikes is that they tend to have gameplay that i'd legitimately be into if it weren't for the type of genre they're in. Dead Cells, 20XX and it's sequel, Binding of Isaac, Hades and so much more are really great games but I just don't like the framing cause I just don't find the procedurally generated gameplay to be interesting and vastly prefer to have levels and progression that were fine tuned by the developers themselves instead of being determined by some algorithm. It's a lot like AI art, yeah it looks good but it lacks the soul that an actual, human artist could inject into that piece if they were the ones that made it.

[@mathewhosier9739]

I dont games to respect my time, i want them to respect my wallet by giving me enough content to warrant a purchase in the first place, RPGs and RPG mechanics are everything i love about video games, the only FPS game i like are FPS RPGs like fallout, the outer worlds, far cry 6 and borderlands/wonderlands

[@MrMister681]

Complaining about procedural level design and showing Risk of Rain 2, which is one of the few games in the genre that doesn't have them just tells me enough.

[@telekinesticman]

I've addressed this earlier in a previous comment, it was an honest mistake on my part because, like I said in the video, I don't *like* roguelikes, so I don't go out of my way to play a lot of them. I played Risk of Rain 2 just for the sake of this video and it felt about the same to me as any other roguelike.

[@roundtabledetails3307]

TLDR: I don't like roguelikes because I only like high art. not like you peasants.

[@telekinesticman]

It's your choice to get offended over someone's opinion about videogames, not mine. Like what you like, it's none of my business.

[@roundtabledetails3307]

@@telekinesticman You can cope and say "it's just my opinion bro" but it's obvious you think you have the correct opinion.

[@roundtabledetails3307]

@Eriko.Christy Complain?

[@Astro_Crunch]

​@@roundtabledetails3307 well of course he thinks his opinions are correct. Why would somebody hold an opinion if they didn't believe in it?

[@libra_v3]

0:13 how ironic that you used this footage when talking about procedurally generated locations when risk of rain 2 doesn't have procedural map generation 2:14 commando's primary has harsh damage falloff at long range and enemies spawn around you so moot point 16:24 and onwards was very tough to listen to. most good roguelikes have great run variety AND a great gameplay core, so implying roguelikes might be gambling or might not even be art is very disrespectful and shows your desires when playing a game are simply misaligned with this genre. procedural =/= no identity, the existence of luck =/= preying on people's time. roguelikes don't end on your first win, they are meant to be mastered and most runs are relatively short so it's not really a waste of time when during that time you were getting experience (not the stat) to get further in later attempts. this is also why people put a lot of hours into them, because once you overcome your reliance on luck, you simply start testing the limits of what the game can offer you, and a gameplay core working in tandem with the random loot keeps you engaged. some people have win streaks in the hundreds in the binding of isaac: repentance, so is it really luck?

[@telekinesticman]

I'll accept blame for that, although perhaps the fact that I couldn't tell the difference (because the environments are still boring and empty), conveyed my point anyway. As I say at the beginning, I haven't even played that many roguelikes because I know I don't like them. Risk of Rain 2 was a popular one that I briefly tried while gathering footage for the video, and it didn't grab me at all, so it still felt appropriate to be featured. There are others that I've played in the past like FTL, but I wanted to focus more closely on shooters and platformers, since they aligned much closer with Deadlink, and my general interests. Edit: And just to add, the Risk of Rain 2 footage when discussing camping at long range wasn't necessarily a jab at that game, it was more so meant as a basic visual example of being far away from enemies in a relatively empty environment. I didn't have other great examples to work with, but I do admit that a different shot could have better sold that point

[@libra_v3]

@@telekinesticman yeah the beginning locations are rather tame, I recommend looking up other locations (and especially look up the soundtrack) as they are much more vibrant and iconic

[@telekinesticman]

@@libra_v3 to be honest I only played a few short runs to gather some extra B-roll and that was about it. It was the roguelike everyone said was really good, but I just didn't see it, and the script was basically complete at that point anyway. Edit: To be clear, the script wasn't finalised and recorded yet. Had anything in RoR2 contradicted my script, then I wouldn't have included it. But I never used it as a specific example, and I made the incorrect assumption that the levels were random because they certainly felt like it while playing. The video isn't about a specific chunk of roguelikes in particular, it's about the broad mechanics tying the genre together, with individual breakdowns on why I dislike each one of them. It's not a review specifically of Risk of Rain and Dead Cells.

[@libra_v3]

finished, maybe some stray thoughts will come to my head later

[@aniican_]

@@telekinesticman Just a little critique for you going forward; You seem to be implying you wrote the paper before doing research. Obviously you have a lot of valid thoughts on these topics so I don't want to belittle those, but an already made up opinion before approaching something will almost always leave you with disappointment. Also, admitting that you didn't have a good example to show a point, but still keeping that in the script as a criticism is weak. It conveys "I can't back this up, but its how I feel", which is fine in my opinion; However, you might receive un-wanted pushback for it. If someone were to write off your entire video for that clip alone, it would be just as valid as the criticism itself. To be clear, I'm not trying to criticize the points you made; However, I am criticizing the way in which you convey those points. This is likely just growing pains as you are getting more into script writing and video production. I'm confident that you will continue to grow this project and make even more engaging content.

[@GreatWesternSpirit28]

Twitter is the worst type of grinding.

[@GreatWesternSpirit28]

I'm just kidding but I really like your take on the whole grinding aspect of these tripe A and small titles games.

[@GreatWesternSpirit28]

There are some points like how rewarded systems work.

[@GreatWesternSpirit28]

I do agree that rouge likes can have the player grind for like hours on end and you don't feel any progression in the game that you brought.

[@GreatWesternSpirit28]

Like we have little time these days to play up to like hours in a game that is why I like playing platformers the most they don't feel grindy to me.

[@telekinesticman]

Exactly, I love short and sweet games. "Long but sweet" titles do exist as well, but most long games don't really earn their length, they just bloat your playthrough with tons of meaningless junk. Not specific to roguelikes, this covers all genres (especially open world games).