Crone debunks MECCA on the Land Trade Route!

According to William Montgomery Watt (a Scottish minister who became an expert on the history of Islam), Mecca became important in the 7th century due to the problem with trade going from the East, through the Persian gulf to Basra, and then across Iraq and Syria, to the Mediterranean Sea, where it then went to Europe.
But in the 5th - 6th centuries the Byzantine and Sassanian Empires were at war with each other, which shut down the trade going via the Persian gulf.
Watt said that the trade then had to be redirected, from the Western coast of India, across the Arabian sea, to Aden, where the goods were taken off the ships and put on camels, which then went along the Western Plateau to Sanaa, then Najran, then to Taif, and on to Mecca, and from there to Yathrib, Kaybar, Tabuk and Gaza on the Mediterranean Sea. And it was this trade that Mecca was in charge of, and from which it enriched itself and became an economic power during the time of Muhammad.
That was known as the "Trade Route Theory".
Dr Patricia Crone, in 1987 had problems with this theory and wrote a bunk to debunk it called "Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam".
First of all, she said, someone needs to look at a map of the Western Coast of Arabia, because you will quickly see that Mecca is not on the Western Plateau, but is almost 1,000 meters (that's 3,000 feet) down off of the plateau.
Which means the caravans would have to descend the 1,000 meters from Taif down to Mecca, where there was no water, and thus no vegetation to feed the camels, and then ascend the 1,000 meters back up to get to Yathrib in the north.
What's even more problematic, she asked why would you take all of your goods off the ships at Aden to then go 1,250 miles overland to Gaza, when you had a water way known as the Red Sea, which went the same route, and would have been much cheaper.
She found that if you take a ton of goods 15 miles by land, it would cost the same as taking the same ton of goods 1,250 miles by sea. That's why we send most of our goods by sea even today, in the 21st century.
So, she decided to test out her theory, and because she could read and write 15 languages, she went back to all of the trading documents from the 2nd to the 7th centuries, and found that all of the trade from the Western Coast of India to the Mediterranean was by Sea, and not by land at all; and that the city which was responsible was Adulis, in Eritrea, which is on the Western Coast of the Red Sea, in what is today Eritrea, suggesting that Arabia had nothing to do with the trade of that time.
In one fell swoop, Patricia Crone debunked Montgomery Watt's 'Trade Route Theory', using historical evidence for her support.
But she didn't go far enough in her analysis, because she didn't bother to look more closely at the Red Sea, to see why exactly the trade didn't go up the Eastern side of the Sea, which is the Arabian side.
That we will look at next.
© Pfander Centre for Apologetics - US, 2022
(62,220) Music: "Justice and Fame" by Rafael Krux, from filmmusic-io

[@davidchase1439]

Makes perfect sense as no fresh water in Mecca region

[@beahumanbeingfirst]

Absolutely 💯 bang on about mecca. Even I researched a lot about it and never find mecca as a city was there where it is now until 8th century

[@TheThornbird21]

@@JesusisaMuslim From what sources?

[@sheikhboyardee556]

@@JesusisaMuslim Really? Give us the proof. Nothing there prior to the 8th Century.

[@alvincapone5859]

This is SHOCKING!!

[@bentajay2026]

Thankyou for making the holes bigger

[@theeuropeanman]

Do you find Jay Smith overly skeptical?

[@MrSatiiiii]

Petra is centre of trade... Silk route to Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Iraq intersects at petra...

[@ishtarlew598]

Islam wants to say the DumDum well could give enough water for thousands of people and animals, which no sane person believes. But, what did they feed the animals?

[@slippingsnake]

"But, what did they feed the animals?" we know that Goats like to eat Verses, that's one explention.

[@schwadevivre4158]

@@JesusisaMuslim Sorry, but that is utter and complete fiction. As to miracles please read John Loftus's anthology "The Case Against Miracles"

[@hereweare9096]

@@JesusisaMuslim Why are you referring to the Bible? Muslims state it’s supposedly corrupted. Yet I keep seeing references to the Bible to use as proof or validity for something.

[@hereweare9096]

@@JesusisaMuslim You can be happy. The Old Testament says in Genesis 28:13 - And look! there was JEHOVAH stationed above it, and he said: “I am JEHOVAH THE GOD of Abraham your father and the God of Isaac.o The land on which you are lying, to you I am going to give it and to your offspring.* We see clearly that Almighty God is Jehovah.

[@schwadevivre4158]

@@JesusisaMuslim Sorry but the OT is just as much a fiction. Please consult Thomas Thompson's "The Historicity of the Patriarchal Narrative." This is a seminal work which shows that the OT patriarchs were merely tribal cult legends. Equally check Finkelstein and Silberman's "The Bible Unearthed." This book a solid background in the archaeology that demonstrates the falsehood of the OT. As for your assertions regarding Mecca; please keep your cult delusions to yourself

[@sushilverma3209]

I am watching most of the videos on Islam. Thanks Jay for to be voice of the Islam's fact finders.

[@schwadevivre4158]

For Red Sea to Mediterranean transport please check "The Canal of the Pharaohs." This important precursor to the Suez Canal was probably completed about 250 BCE under Ptolomy II. In the 2nd Century CE it was restored as the "River of Trajan." The SIN has it that when Egypt was conquered by the Muslims (or non-trinitarian Arabs if your work is correct) in the 640s CE Amr ibn al-As restored the silted up waterway. A further point undermining the idea that Mecca/Medina were important stops on an overland caravan route is that the rulers of Egypt blocked this "River of Trajan" in 767 CE ... to stop supplies getting to Mecca/Medina!

[@nathanjohnwade2289]

Keep the research coming. The more truths that are revealed, the more they will be be without excuse before the Throne of God.

[@TheThornbird21]

@@JesusisaMuslim After all the evidences, you’re still believe Islam came from God? I can’t believe it!

[@nemesis1291]

@@JesusisaMuslim you are saying that the truth isn't important to you.

[@ianofliverpool7701]

I just purchased Crone`s book "Meccan trade and the rise of Islam" looking forward to reading it.

[@trevorgriffiths5611]

Expensive.. Which is a pity ..

[@trevorgriffiths5611]

@@JesusisaMuslim Was it in the fiction section of the book shop 🤣🤣🤣

[@trevorgriffiths5611]

@@JesusisaMuslim Really and how does he do that.. Show me his proof and where he allegedly got this so called proof.. Only I really don’t believe you ..

[@MrDrbld]

@@trevorgriffiths5611 Remember. SIT STAY WITH ME etc, or else you'll get entangled in a myriad of straining leashes....

[@MrDrbld]

@@JesusisaMuslim WITH ME. WAIT,,,, "Yusuf al-Qaradawi: Killing Of Apostates Is Essential For Islam To Survive" In this interview Mr. al-Qaradawi not only acknowledges that Islam prescribes the death penalty for apostasy, but that if it weren't for this little nicety of Islamic law, Islam could not have survived as an ideology. #kzbin.info/www/bejne/nqawpmufnamfjKM. Happier?

[@yakovmatityahu]

Nice content Thanks Jay and Al Fadi.

[@MrDrbld]

And this is a reset to when P Crone was threatened to death for her ideas. It's taken this long to revisit and move forward with her thesis. Shame on us.

[@samuelflores1419]

Great Job! Keep digging! God Bless you Both!

[@markaxworthy2508]

One can find Nabataean horned altars in the archaeology of southern Arabia. The Nabataeans appear to have been the people who domesticated the camel for use as a beast of burden in trade. Their city of Mada’in Salih lies deep inland, half way between Petra and Medina. This doesn't specifically help Mecca, but it does indicate that there definitely was inland trade in Arabia. The fact that trade from Egypt to India went by sea is well established by the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea, but this doesn't exclude internal Arabian trade also being conducted inland.

[@BrutusAlbion]

Nobody is denying that there was internal trade on the peninsula. What is being denied is that it was a major international trade route as Muslims claim. Mecca as a town most assuredly no matter its size at the time, would have some trade flowing to and from it. What is being disputed is that it was supposedly a major trade stop between the east and west as such that the major trade from persia and india flowed through Mecca towards Egypt for example. This is simply not the case. At best Mecca seems to have been a tertiary supply route as opposed to a primary route. It's like saying that your little village is a major international trading hub because you have a marketplace with spices from india. Meanwhile you ignore the fact that the highway is passing through a completely different city nearby and 99% of all logistics and trade is passing not through your little village but the one further up ahead and none of that trade ever goes through your town. It's not a major trade hub, it's just a village market square. That's what Mecca was. Just a village market, a non important stop on a small peninsular in-land trade route.

[@markaxworthy2508]

@@BrutusAlbion Yup, "Nobody is denying that there was internal trade on the peninsula". This presentation simply largely ignores it. Where in the Koran does it say that Mecca "a major trade stop between the east and west as such that the major trade from persia and india flowed through Mecca towards Egypt"? As I understand it, it is the received Islamic version that this was so, not that the Koran says so. This seems to be an attack on an interpretation of the Koran, not the Koran itself. I think that the argument being made here is that there is absolutely no external or archaeological evidence that Mecca even existed at this time, not that it was insignificant.

[@MrDrbld]

@@markaxworthy2508 So conversely where are the thesis that support the alterantive trade routes and their residual proofs? Textual contracts of trading partners at either end of routes..? Shipwrecks and laden vessels somewhere in the silt of the coasts with tell tale seals and artefacts? Got to be out there somewhere...

[@BrutusAlbion]

@@markaxworthy2508 Nobody was claiming that the Koran said this either. What are you on about bro? Nobody was arguing for or against this position. We're talking about the Islamic Narrative as told by Muslims, not as told by the Koran. The muslims claim that Mecca is the mother of all cities, the oldest city on the planet, where nearly all the prophets have been buried, a major international trade hub that connected west and east, etc, etc. We're saying that all of that is nonsense. It's quite likely that Mecca did exist previously at this time. Quite likely just a tiny little hamlet in the middle of the boonies and too insignificant to be listed on the major maps or trade routes at the time. Of course that's just speculation as you said, there's no archaeological or external evidence that supports this.

[@markaxworthy2508]

@@MrDrbld We have the "The Periplus of the Erythraean Sea". This is a book of sailing instructions from Egypt to India written in Greek at about the time of Christ. It details what goods can be traded at ports along the route. So the maritime trade in the Red Sea is well established from long before Islam. However, it does not mention Mecca or any related port. The text of "The Periplus of the Erythraean Sea" is on line.

[@UnitedKashmirNews455]

The link between Jeddah, Cairo, and Athens with Malabar of South India is well established in the practice of the Mutta Marriage system. People in Malabar because of their faith system, it was bad to work on the ships. The work opportunity on ships left for outsiders to fill. So people from other places went there to work on ships. People from Jeddah, Cairo, and Athens probably Jews, Christians, or tribal faith sys used to travel to Malabar to work on ships which men without women living and working at Malabar and after Islam, it resulted in the Mutta marriage system. Previously this demand could be filled with prostitution. Mutta marriage system indicates that when Islam came, the very people converted to Islam, and Muslims instead of prostitution introduced the Mutta marriage as an alternative to prostitution with local Hindu girls. In the Mutta marriage institutions in Malabar probably still exist, following Shafi's legal code. Husbands were allowed only to visit the wife but were not allowed to stay in the same house. Children of sisters cannot marry each other but children of sisters and brothers can marry each other in the Mutta marriage institutions. The name of the children were Arabs.

[@julietabraham476]

Whoa!!! that was an interesting piece of information.I am interested if you could cite references for it.

[@gary_rumain_you_peons]

Can you explain the "because of their faith system, it was bad to work on the ships" in more detail. Sounds very odd. Are you saying that India never had ships and sailors because of their religious beliefs?

[@schwadevivre4158]

A simple examination of the great trading dhows that still work the Red Sea and the Indian Ocean give the lie to your assertions

[@AnilKumar-vo7mr]

Mutta remains prostitution you pay for sex for few days that’s how prostitution works. These days brothels have qazi sitting to santiciy prostitution in name of islam

[@AnilKumar-vo7mr]

@@gary_rumain_you_peons total nonsese Indian navy was so advanced that first thing British did after taking control of india to ban Indian from building owning ships . Indians used to do business with far away Greece through sea. Go to orissa there is whole festival associated with the time of the year men used to go on merchant ship voyage

[@henktmmr]

Thank you and God bless you!

[@trevorgriffiths5611]

Dr Jay Smith.. The Trade route is a very compelling argument as to why Mecca 🕋 wasn’t not important but wasn’t even there .. But an even better argument as to why Mecca couldn’t have been there before islam is the Fictional Battles the alleged Muhammad fought.. Don’t forget the Arabs were being used as Auxiliary troops in both the Persian and Byzantium’ armies.. So how could so many people come from the Hijaz region.. The Arabs couldn’t have fought battles on 3 theatres of war .. Just look at the casualty lists in the Hadiths to see how ridiculous this is .. No Mecca No Muhammad..

[@alonzoharris6730]

The trade rout has been proven by many scholars. Even Crone admitted it in her book. She contradicted herself in the book and admitted the trade root unwillingly.🤣

[@MU-we8hz]

@@alonzoharris6730 i have never seen you give any prove. All talk, no substance.

[@MU-we8hz]

@@JesusisaMuslim you are calling someone a pagan? You follow a pedophile prophet who received satanic verses....., satan violated him hard.

[@chia-yinshih6155]

@@JesusisaMuslim Mohammed was the FINAL PROPHET OF THE BEST Of DECEIVERS, THE FATHER OF LIES as Jesus called Satan.

[@20july1944]

@@alonzoharris6730 No, it hasn't been proven by archeology and it is disproven by geography. There's no reason to cross a desert when there's a body of water only 100 miles away providing a parallel path.

[@jerusalemite6522]

amazing

[@Purwapada]

really cool

[@hashmi8790]

Very good an informative vedio I like your work

[@LMCI]

God bless

[@watchman4todayreloaded192]

Can someone remind me where Patricia Crone DID find Mecca? I think it was somewhere up between Mesopotamia and Turkey but I've forgotten where exactly.

[@ConservativeArabNet]

Possible to go in the Suez Canal lakes to what I’d Port Said

[@BobSmith-lb9nc]

The much earlier incense trade went along the plateau from Yemen to Gaza.

[@501Mobius]

You may not have to worry about caravan robbers going by land but I bet the pirates on the Red Sea were as thick as flies.

[@gary_rumain_you_peons]

Mahound was a caravan robber. But pirates are a more modern phenomena. Especially around the Red Sea.

[@501Mobius]

@@gary_rumain_you_peons When and where did the stories of Sinbad the sailor take place? It was within +/-100 years of Mohammed.

[@gary_rumain_you_peons]

@@501Mobius These were fabricated in Baghdad. Fables to keep children amused.

[@sgt.grinch3299]

So the first city which Adam established didn’t exist until the 8th century AD. The Kaaba wasn’t built by Abraham. Now there wasn’t any trade route in the desert. What is left? I no longer see a historical foundation for the cult of the shin.

[@gary_rumain_you_peons]

9:25 There may not have been a Suez Canal but there was a canal that the Romans and Greeks built and maintained. It fell into disrepair after the arselifters invaded Egypt.

[@premlatamahale3256]

👍👍👍

[@hamsterbox4732]

Opens the question, what rich caravans was Mohammad able to rob, down there in Mecca🤔.

[@dinosaur0073]

Thank you for info. Major ancient city. Alexander- Sabaa(yemen+ Ethiopia)- Qustanteen- Parsipolis(iran). Since they don't have GPS, their GPS will be rivers, and desert transport will be camels. Also, jedda port from Red Sea. Therefore, the conclusion "Mekka" is centra of trade. Camel Trade Route: 1) Yemen- Suriya. (لِإِيلَافِ قُرَيْشٍ (1) إِيلَافِهِمْ "رِحْلَةَ الشِّتَاءِ وَالصَّيْفِ" (2)صدق الله العظيم 2)Jeddah- port Sudan to elexenderiya. View nile River through Kush kingdom. 3) Mekka-Riyadh- kuwait- Basra- Baqdad. (وهو الذي مرج البحرين هذا "عذب فرات" وهذا "ملح أجاج" وجعل بينهما برزخا)صدق الله العظيم

[@schwadevivre4158]

Jedda is a port that was built to supply Mecca and as a pilgrimage port. Your argument does nothing to show such caravan routes existed, in fact it reinforces the fact that ocean trade was utterly necessary

[@dinosaur0073]

All Arab cities built by caravan....dear. Do more research....thank you for joining

[@schwadevivre4158]

@@dinosaur0073 But the point is there was NO caravan route to Mecca Medina

[@dinosaur0073]

There was. Do research . No easy way out.

[@Jesus_9065]

Great work Jay keep unfolding the false belief they should come back to true religion

[@leonardkrol2600]

You are going to take on Patricia Crone? Good luck. She is a tough broad.

[@deepakb5547]

That suez canala was planned. Block

[@mo_51_married_aisha_6]

HEADS UP EVERYONE: There is a new short 3D movie on Rob Christian's channel on the satanic verses. It is a masterpiece and truly represents the next generation in awakening Muslims. Be sure to watch and share. If you upload it to your channel with a link to Rob's channel, you both would have alot to gain.

[@MrDrbld]

al-Lāt ,al-‘Uzzá and Manāt AKBAR!!!! He/she/they are greater than.....er.....Ur....mmm...🏳️‍🌈 er

[@gary_rumain_you_peons]

Can you put up the link? I can't even find his channel.

[@mo_51_married_aisha_6]

@@gary_rumain_you_peons I've been trying. But YT has been doing alot of shadow banning. Type in Rob Christian into the search bar. I also have him in my playlists.

[@mo_51_married_aisha_6]

@@gary_rumain_you_peons The video is in my "Mo false prophet" playlist. It is on the bottom. Best wishes 😊

[@gary_rumain_you_peons]

@@mo_51_married_aisha_6 Thanks.

[@kimballbeard691]

You need to read and learn!

[@treatyofchristianity7772]

All of our maps are wrong use flat earth maps. At least they got right this time. All of our map are misleading.

[@treatyofchristianity7772]

Dr jay importent message for you. You say there are different qiblas directions. None of the qiblas not face to kabba or Petra. They all of them follow sun directions all of the directions of 🕌 till today follow sun directions. Muslim in kabba when leaders start the prayer they face the sun . Even the prayer time fixed by the sun. Allah is the light(sun) of the world. Sun(Allah)go to the Throne of Allah. Punishment of Allah is fire. Muslim are no more than sun worshipers

[@AndiWidjaja]

Wrong, the sun direction changes from month to month. Don't create ridiculous theory by yourself, let the experts do the research.

[@treatyofchristianity7772]

@@AndiWidjaja how much you think. It is just small change. How do you think. I will give to 2 options. One is a house kabba where god never enter in his life. Or I say sun go to allah Throne where Allah live. Where you will bow down. To a house or toword Allah throne. Use your 7th century mind set. Sun go east to west . Small change don't make it east to north. One of the end time messages in Islam is sun not get permission. Allah will say go back sun .

[@daduzadude1547]

@@treatyofchristianity7772 where do you live? Sun direction changes more or less if you live in different locations. And the sun direction would not make sense for those pointing south?

[@treatyofchristianity7772]

@@daduzadude1547 it work only in south or north pole. When I saw maps. The most accurate is flat earth maps. I am not saying earth is flat. Just think. All the mosque qiblas old ones facing end point of the sun.

[@treatyofchristianity7772]

@@daduzadude1547 see it your self

[@roshlew6994]

Ian D Morris says Claudius Ptolemy’s second-century Geography places the name Macoraba in the west of the Arabian Peninsula. There is a consensus in Orientalist scholarship that Macoraba is Mecca, and to a lesser extent that the name derives from an Ancient South Arabian word for “temple.” This paper traces the identification of Macoraba as Mecca back to Samuel Bochart in 1646 and assesses the changing interpretations of Macoraba since then. It concludes that no satisfactory derivation has been proposed to explain the difference between the names Mecca and Macoraba, and argues that the consensus should now be abandoned or more rigorously defended. You are debunked and destroyed boy... Islam is the fastest breeding religion..

[@didierfavre2356]

What were Bochart arguments? More important, what were his evidences?

[@20july1944]

You can get a "scholar" to argue anything for money -- that's the problem with the social sciences.

[@umms29]

@@didierfavre2356 In a nutshell, I think that the Mecca-Macoraba link was an etymological one according to Samuel Bochart and the first to propose that the two places are one of the same and the idea had stuck since without any such real scrutiny into his proposals, as Dr. Morris quite rightly points out. More details are found on page 12 of Dr. Morris' paper: www.middleeastmedievalists.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/UW-26-Morris.pdf

[@didierfavre2356]

@@umms29 and others. In one word, Bochart came with that association and then it stuck. A consensus is not a proof. There was a consensus in Europe that Jupiter existed and was a god. There is a consensus that he never existed. There was a consensus that the Earth was flat. There is a consensus that the Earth is spherical. There is a consensus that Jesus Christ is god. There is another that he was a prophet. There is a consensus that god is one and another that god is three in one. Some of them can be supported by evidences. Some others can't. A consensus is not a proof. I'm interested by the way a consensus is being reached. Accepting it as a truth is a totally distinct story.

[@pfanderfilms]

Did you even read Ian D Moris's conclusion? More to say on this in an upcoming episode, so stay tuned...

[@roshlew6994]

You people are so wrong. Ptolemy, the Greek historian in Alexandria, mentions Mecca in 2nd century in book Geography. Psalm#84 in Hebrew Bible also mentions Mecca. Jay has been completely debunked and destroyed.

[@nemesis1291]

No you are wrong son.

[@roshlew6994]

@@nemesis1291You are so ignorant. Ptolemy has mentioned Mecca. Also, Mecca is mentioned in Bible. Mecca is a very ancient city.

[@harryfontesugiarto]

@@roshlew6994 where the hell in the Bible it says mecca? You should watch Dan Gibson Videos, Petra was also called mecca. There were mecca and Arabia mecca. Ptolemy describes the geographical conditions of the heejaz. Some people have made maps from the description, and no Arabian mecca is plotted in the maps.

[@roshlew6994]

@@harryfontesugiarto You are mistaken. Dan Gibson has been completely debunked. Petra was never Mecca. Ptolemy in 2nd century places Mecca in Hijaz in central-west Arabia. Psalm84 also mentions Bacca which is another name for Mecca in Quran.

[@nemesis1291]

@@roshlew6994 both of your aged claims have been debunked, step into the 21st century son.