Crossovers: Laying a Foundation

[@stuart302]

You are a star Danny, fantastic video. I admire your commitment and patience.

[@flashhog01]

Great video! I am really enjoying this series, very interesting and informative.

[@karlcotleanu4144]

Great info!! I had considered getting an electronic crossover, or a DAC, and your video confirmed my doubts. I will stick with the passive crossover, and work it all I can.

[@shimofo1]

Very educational as always. Love it!

[@hi-fihaven2257]

Thanks much for another great, and interesting video! Danny is awesome.

[@HollisAudioLabs]

Danny, thanks for the shout out about the dspMusik 2x8 digital crossover system! :)

[@Bryangsu]

Thank you for taking the time to make the videos and sharing your knowledge.

[@jimgardiner1558]

Great video as usual I agree with you that the cross-over circuitry can really make or break a speaker performance. Its been about 15 years or more since I built a set of speakers and just starting back into it in my retirement. I worked really hard trying to perfect the cross-overs on my last set (designed and built a pair of transmission lines). I included a notch filter for a tweeter resonance that was about one octave away from the cross-over frequency (maybe overkill? ) I also included woofer impedance compensation to counteract the rise in the impedance curve at higher frequencies (above resonance). I did a 1st order low pass for the woofer and 2nd order high pass for the tweeter (had to reverse the tweeter polarity to maintain the proper phase relationship at the crossover frequency). I am a Mechanical Engineer by trade and had a good deal of experience in the machinery field where vibrations are an ongoing concern. Vibration resonances are often a problem with machinery so always looking at Bode Plots where both phase and amplitudes are represented. This brings me to the topic of phase distortion in crossovers. I worried about it to the point that I considered going to electronic crossovers to try and reduce it. As one of my hobbies has been electronics I am familiar with using OP Amps to make low pass and high pass filters (i built a color organ that way). As I researched it more I came to the conclusion that phase distortion was probably not really very audible. As long as you kept the phase reasonably close near the crossover where the speaker sound waves overlapped each other it should sound OK. So I went ahead with a passive crossover. I sourced my crossover components from reputable sources (i.e. Solen capacitors etc.). Bottom line is I was happy with the end product. The speakers had a reasonably flat response curve and they sounded good to my ear. I guess the proof is in the pudding so to speak. I am still enjoying those same speakers today.

[@DannerPlace]

The fundamental problem with direct radiators is the low impedance of free air, and relatively small size with resect to the wavelengths being coupled into that air (at lower freqs.). All you have to work with is amplifier power and cone excursion, but excursion moves the voice coil out of the linear region of the magnetic field.

[@MrRocktuga]

Great content! I'm not so sure about the "top-level loudspeakers" using only passive crossovers, unless we're talking only about the audiophile kind of gear. Most studio monitors (from the cheapest to the most expensive) work with digital crossovers, which allow not only the crossover point/slope adjustment, but also several types of very precise eq (on which case you can also make a high-shelf adjustment for that rising natural response of the tweeter). That may become more expensive as we have to add more amplifiers (or amplifier channels), which I believe to be the biggest compromise (along with the room it takes). But even smaller active loudspeakers (most of them made for small "home studios" with a few exceptions growing for the Hi-Fi enthusiast) can deliver levels of performance that are often hard to achieve with much more expensive passive designs, and most of that is achieved by the combination of internal bi-amping, electronic crossovers and some sort of DSP. Those are still professonally designed cabinets, with professional driver matching and crossover adjustment, but many active monitors (Genelec comes immediatly to mind, even their entry-level ones) sound amazing and far better than 99% of those similarly priced (and sized) passive bookshelves. At the very least, the active speaker with electronic crossover has a lot of more capabilities of controlling several aspects of each driver performance, including its own protection against clipping and overload induced damages. I'd say that designing a great passive design (like you do) is a lot harder and likely more time-consuming, and that's why it's a gift to hear all your great content. Thank You and cheers.

[@512bb]

Terrific Danny, thank you. I think the crossovers are where most speaker manufacturer's drop the ball, big time!

[@seanmangan2769]

😁 2:10 "but, I'm guessing you actually want to listen to your speakers..." 😂

[@analogueheavenrecordingstu2984]

Thanks this is brilliant stuff!

[@dilbyjones]

Thanks Danny

[@LourencoPT]

Another excellent video Sir. Keep it up!

[@bartvanransbeeck1341]

Great topic thanks a lot

[@CirclesandSounds]

Thanks, Danny! Great content as always! I was curious if you ever mess with the Linkwitz Transform filters for sealed Subs? If so, I'd love to see your comments on that, maybe a video at some point?? 😁 Thanks again! - Jesse

[@0bzen22]

Thanks for sharing.

[@stanyoung4974]

Isn't the woofer capacitor dumping some of your signal right to ground ?? could the signal be routed somewhere else instead like maybe the mid-range or the Tweeter

[@pigpen74]

How would I send a set of speakers to get them looked at? To maybe get crossover work done.

[@djordjegitaric4044]

Thank you for the great video again! I can`t wait next tuesday! In my country we say that the real knowledge is only when you share it with others. Now I have to invest more money in measuring equipment :) Cheers, Djordje

[@Stingray2201]

Thank you for a great video and series, I enjoy watching them. I was glad to hear your comments on the Ellipticor drivers. I was excited to see a non-round voice coil thinking Scan Speak had reduced/removed one last resonance. Even through the frequency response (F.R.) is smooth (non-rough), it does have a raising response (shredding mass) and impedance imperfection at 1,500-Hz (edge hole?). The F.R. is an improvement over the Illuminator series but, the retail selling price of $708 does not provide any value. I do not understand the Illuminator series, for $337 retail, you get a fancy looking motor, which I am sure is low in distortion, but the F.R. has what looks like some serve cone break-up relatively low in frequency. I think maybe the Illuminator should have been an evolution over the Revelator ($209 retail) as opposed to revolution. I have heard the Revelator series and it is a nice sounding driver - I have not heard the Illuminator or Ellipticor but I would imagine there is not hundreds of dollars difference in sound quality. Once could compare all three to the more cost effective Seas CA18RNX which has a coated paper cone and retails for $88.50. Motor has copper and it delivers a smooth frequency response with a controlled roll off.

[@paulstamp1208]

Cars do work that way it also gets you most of the way with crossovers,every thing is a compromise for so many reasons

[@bigjay1970]

Couldn't agree more that paper cones work terrific in most situations. People get all hung up on exotic materials! And yes, it is mostly in the cross over!🤗😎😁 by the way Danny, do you have any opinion or knowledge regarding the cross over Mr. Jeff Timbers put in my JBL Studio 590s. To me they sound fantastic for the money but very curious what you may think of this design? Thanks!🤗😎 ps. I learned the hard way with using magnesium cones, YUCK!🤔😉😁

[@dilbyjones]

Do you make any OpenBaffle Designs ?

[@treyhorn5645]

Thank's Danny, Great info as always... 👍✌️

[@JonRosko]

If anyone wondering what the speaker is, it's the Ellipticore 3 from a designer named Troels Gravesen. He deliberately designed this set of speakers with 1st order filters and no capacitors. No comment on why these sound bad, but thats what they are and what the original designer did.

[@MrArunasB]

JonRosko it looks like shape of front baffle doesnt look like one on the ellipticore

[@Koru-Health]

When you say digital crossover are you referring to something like minidsp? Thanks!

[@rhalfik]

Yup.

[@walterkasper467]

Can you recommend a cd player maybe at 2 price points Thanks for the great video

[@chuckwilliams999]

Thanks Danny for the video on this subject.

[@TheNaboen]

Thanks for really educational videos. This series of crossovers I must follow with great interest. I have a thought / idea I want to hear what you think. It's probably a little "far out": I have a small listening room with a bunch of problems with standing waves. This may be partially solved, but anyway, I think it will be difficult to get good deep bass with conventional speakers. But. I have imagined a "beam" across the room, above the listening position. This is designed as an H with 12 (?) 6.5 "woofers mounted in a dipole configuration. It will then be 3-4 feet from the top of this beam up to the sloping ceiling in the room. The beam will need to be 10.5 feet long. Could this work?

[@dannyrichie9743]

Well, I really don't know the root of the problem that you are trying to resolve. I'd need to know more to give you any meaningful advice.

[@altops4490]

WOW football-shaped voice coils! ! !

[@dikala]

Speaker in the background is Troels Gravesen desing. Builder have changed the front baffle, I wonder if that's the reason why it sound so awful?

[@dannyrichie9743]

I don't know anything about who originally designed what was sent here, but a slight change in baffle design would not have altered the response that much, or caused the issues that the customer noted.

[@JesusChristSaves2024]

I don't think that comparing a budget dsp with it's budget dac and power supply to a passive crossover in combination with a high end dac is a fair comparison. The dac is the problem, not the dsp filter. I mean if you going to use a passive crossover with a budget dac, you might as well use a dsp. If you want a better sound when doing an active crossover then get a high end dsp that has a proper dac. Having said that I still prefer a well designed passive solution.

[@ReflectedMiles]

Agreed. But why deal with post-amp signal at all if it is going to be a high-end system? On the pro side, active line-level control has always been the first choice for rather obvious reasons, and that includes the time before there was such a thing as DACs and DSP's. If someone doesn't want to mess with more than one amp, then passive has to be dealt with, but for the kind of money that starts getting involved here...

[@Nonsense62365]

Great explanation! Unfortunately I only understood 50%! That’s because I am not a crossover designer a loudspeaker designer a cabinet designer! it’s not my bailiwick if it was my bailiwick If I did what you do for a living for 20+ years I may have 80-90% understanding if what you were talking about and so would rest the rest of the folks here! so it’s a great start we’re just gonna need a lot of handholding and help to understand anywhere close to your level Danny!

[@Lesterandsons]

We want more

[@cboyamg]

Problem with pasive networks is they are limited in the power they can handle. There just arent caps that sound good and can take 1000w of power

[@russmaleartist]

I agree there is the capability of achieving a good speaker with a passive crossover -- no doubt; however, I have a DBX used primarily for PA systems in live performances, that has great flexibility in controlling crossover points in very flexible slopes, all the spikes and ringing of the drivers, the inadequacies or deficiencies, time alignment, and even analyze room acoustics and adjust them. There is no noise I am aware of . . . and the dimensional sound staging with dimensional effects if it is in the recording is simply outstanding! Right now, I have the subwoofers actively controlled, and the main speakers with crossovers I put together, but totally under the control of the DBX, and as much as I like what I am hearing, I believe using two more amps primarily controlling the drives also as active will be even more outstanding. Regardless, the experimentation in my estimation will definitely be worth it considering the extreme improvement I have seen adding the DBX. People can argue their point of view for hours -- even get heated in the discussions, but if someone is pleased with their system and the sound they are getting, your arguments are mute! After all, it is their money, their ears, and their taste in sound and music that has NOTHING to do with your own.

[@dannyrichie9743]

I always tell people that if they are happy with their system and where it is then enjoy it. But on a scale of performance levels that type of gear is designed for the pro market and is still a long way from what is possible using passive filters and high end gear. And I have to share that with my customers. And is really isn't a matter of opinion or debate. It's a matter of experience.

[@NackDSP]

The limitations of a passive crossover are not worth it. Modern speaker design using active crossovers will always produce a higher fidelity speaker every time. There is no reason to live in the past. Imagine having an active crossover that you can switch crossover points, crossover filter order or what ever you like with the push of a button. I can switch between four different crossovers with my miniDSP from the remote control. By changing crossover points I can change the speaker directivity on the fly for different songs. Check out the Beo 90 for the ultimate active crossover implementation. Why anyone would limit themselves to what can be done with caps and coils is beyond me. Just buy another amplifier and have more fun. No need to rely on a shop for building a passive setup, when you can go active DIY and get better results. If you are an audiophile and care more about aesthetics, history and artistic expression and don't care about high fidelity, then get a stack of vinyl, a big ole tube amp with an inch thick front panel, some gold fuses, silver wires and some passive crossovers and live it up.

[@mobilgin]

To tweak his design,I can see front speaker baffle is different ....well lets say your client has a huge problem on this hand ,specially if he changed drivers.

[@dannyrichie9743]

The slight change to the baffle can not account for the response issues that this design had. There was too much driver overlap. The drivers had a phase rotation at the crossing over point that didn't allow the drivers to sum properly. There was some phase cancellation. And the drivers were allowed to play into ranges where there were resonance issues with those drivers. And the only driver change was the use of our 12" servo sub in the bottom end rather than an uncontrolled driver.

[@gzubeck3]

What I'd like to know is...are they really that much better than the illuminator line from scan speak. A mid range driver that can't be crossed over higher than 1500 hz. yeash. I'm glad your playing with those to give us a heads up on their quality. I'm just curious on whats the selling point of the new ellipticor drivers. Is it an improved motor design? I'm not buying this oval crap....

[@RealCrypto]

Did any girls leave a comment?

[@NickP333]

Your analogy of buying a car to match your tires was perfect and funny. What type of DAC are you using? I only ask because I certainly trust your opinion after seeing your vids. I can’t believe this is the 15th Tech Talk Tuesday already, and I both congratulate and thank you for that. You’ve already shared so much knowledge and useful information, and you explain it in a way that is easy to understand. Once again, I thank you very much, Danny. I look very much forward to more of your vids. 🎶🔊🙂

[@dannyrichie9743]

First of all, thank you. Explaining technical matters without being too technical is not all that easy sometimes. My DAC is a one off that kind of started as a db Audio Labs variant that got passed around. Gary Dodd designed the output stage, and Dave Elledge up the anti with an internal battery buss. Literally everyone had input and tweaked on it. It's not the end all be all, but until I find one I like better it will be what is in my system.

[@nagyandras8857]

Bollocks. Its 2024 now. A simple system wide eq apo available for free will whitout question do far more Than any passive or active crossover can ever hope for. And the output is digital. The dac you use is up to you. Digital , software defined crossovers are way better Than other solutions. First , they do not alter phase , unless you want them to. They can correct time domain over the whole range, thry can have any slope you want them to be. The result will be phase coherent , including compensation for the individual speaker drivers and amplifiers used. Among a lot of other things. You can not ever replicate any of this whit a passive crossover , or passive line level, or active crossover .