CRT Blasphemy! Using a 4:3 LCD screen to game on a MiSTer in 2021

[@Aaronmac404]

Holy grail is eventually going to be a 4k+ 4:3 OLED screen capable of HDR. Pair it with a retrotink, MiSTer, or PC capable of slotmask shaders and stuff and we'll be like 90% of the way there which is perfectly fine.

[@Jorven-w1z]

But it’s very unlikely they will ever make a 4:3 OLED. What would be the use case for a high-end 4:3 monitor in this day and age?

[@mdjfusion]

I'm glad that at least some people are starting to see the value of LCDs/LEDs. I've got a Dell IPS monitor in my arcade cabinet and it is perfect for rotating between Yoko and Tate modes. This would be really impractical for an arcade CRT (I'm also not willing to spend a fortune on limited supply arcade CRTs that cannot be repaired once the tube goes.) Purists go on and on about lag, but I honestly don't notice it. I also think that CRT shaders are getting pretty good.

[@ZezRetro]

I’ll be getting my hands on a time sleuth in a few weeks and I am super keen to test the lag for myself. Dell says 5ms and if that’s true it’s impossible that’s perceiveable by someone. As I was saying in another comment, my arcade stick had 3x that lag and changing that was far more useful I think. However let’s see the truth when I get a time sleuth, if I have to eat my words I will😃 For me, when I’m playing on an lcd I don’t like scanlines, that’s just a personal choice though. I like seeing scanlines on a crt and I like seeing those perfect pixels on an lcd Also apparently now I am a lcd apologist hahah. I need to make some more CRT videos 😀

[@mdjfusion]

@@ZezRetro Time Sleuth results will be very interesting. However, IMO if you cannot detect lag while actually playing, especially if you've played on CRTs, then I think the LCD latency is good enough. Re: shaders - it seems like there is a 50/50 split between CRT shader-fanciers (ie. me) and real-scanlines-or-bust people (ie. you). I can respect that, and I'm can take comfort that we are both likely appalled by pixel smoothing filters like Super Eagle and both detest stretching 4:3 to 16:9 :D

[@mdjfusion]

I just remembered, in spite of my praise of LCDs/LEDs that there is 1 distinct drawback... non-60Hz refresh rates. Old displays like your and my Dell can only display 60Hz. This means that either emulators have to slightly increase game speeds to match the refresh rates or frames have to get dropped. This is particularly noticeable with Midway games like Mortal Kombat and some Irem games like R-Type. The only modern displays that can accomidate this are FreeSync displays. These have the advantage of lowering lag by a frame as they don't need to buffer for V-Sync, but alas don't come in 4:3 displays. Personally, I can live with the dropped frames, but it would be nice to get an IPS FreeSync 4:3 rotating display (aka. a display that doesn't exist.)

[@RetroMoments]

Awesome video, man! I play all my retro consoles through RGB on a 4:3 LCD TV as well. Picture quality is perfect and it doesn't take up a lot of space.

[@HAST0408]

I just bought a 4:3 IPS panel LCD. Can’t wait to try out my old arcade games on it!

[@VoidbrandGallery]

I nearly got this monitor watching this review months ago, but I ended up getting the EIZO S2133 instead. One of the best things about it is that it has DisplayPort. No black bars, 21 inches. I didn't get it for the MiSTer though, but for PC emulation. The 1600x1200 resolution scales perfectly with DOSBox games, older 4:3 PC games, and emulation with no black bars (at least with Sega Genesis & PS2 games. Scanline filters look great). I took the plunge after reading a comment in this video that they weren't feeling any input lag from this monitor. The only downside is that it's very expensive 😔, so I'd only recommend getting it used. CRTs are still great but I moved on from them due to geometry issues and their size, and I just don't play on real hardware much anymore. But I'm curious to see how the Retrotink 5x Pro looks on it.

[@ZezRetro]

I’d love one of those square Ezio screens. I have since got a dell 2007FP which is actually 4:3 and 1600x1200 also. Still eizo would be more legit 😀

[@sibbyeskie]

Been wondering when we will see a MISTer equivalent for display technology. It’s going to happen. At some point we will have so much pixel density and dynamic range to really emulate perfectly just about every detail of CRT’s except maybe z-plane curvature.

[@ghostbombl8034]

Not really.Crt will always be better with its nature technology that digital or lcd or oled can do one biggest thing is the up down lines that filters out the up down jags than the normal scan lines on top that plus the pixes are different shape.

[@Vulto166]

I have two of these 4:3 dell monitors and i agree with your statements. Try game on the 19 inch version, specially vert shooters. I'm really surprised by the quality of this old monitor.

[@PadPoet]

Good point. CRTs are awesome but so are the last 4:3 LCDs. I managed to pick up an Eizo S2133, lovely 21 inch 4:3 IPS LCD panel. The only problem with it is the fact it's not 50hz compatible so the Amiga core and others don't work with it. And also the price, new it costs a lot! I bought it used. But it swivels and everything arcade related looks amazing. I am very sensitive to input lag and can't feel it on this monitor. Combos in fighting games and reaction times on shmups are just fine.

[@ZezRetro]

Oh wow I didnt know about Eizo monitors before. Something new to search out! :D

[@ZezRetro]

I just found a new locally and the only one which swivels is from my old mate over at the Komissionikaup store which I also made a video about. He has a 19 inch for 50 euros which is a bit much for me. If I could find a 21 inch then I think I'd be willing to bite

[@AndreaBogazzi]

I would love to find one of those screen, would solve most of my gaming needs. The only issue is that i think that the 5ms resposne time advertised is the gray to gray and is not the lag. The lag can be higher depending if you are using vga or hdmi and other factors. That 5ms is just for the blurrines and ghosting

[@RetroTechUSA]

4:3 is my favorite aspect ratio. I can forgive you for this, but I better not see you get rid of any CRTs 📺🙂

[@ZezRetro]

You will pry them from my cold dead hand :D

[@johndee759]

Thank you for making this video. You will always have lag on any lcd.

[@ZezRetro]

@@johndee759 Absolutely, it just comes down to how much lag and is that perceptible to the player. I have noticed a big difference when switching from my 8Bitdo Arcade stick to a SNES stick with a Daemonbite adapter. If the specs are to be believed, the screen is only adding 5ms of lag but the stick was adding 13+ms, so typically a whole extra frame.

[@6vibe150]

I’m using a dell 2007FPB for mister!

[@6vibe150]

The optional little speakers are decent too

[@ZezRetro]

Oh Dang, if I see one of those I am definitly picking it up. I'd be willing to pay more than 3 bucks too :D

[@kirkd1502]

I have 3 of these from Goodwill ($10) and 2 Lenovo models. I first saw them on PhilsComputerLab channel talking about retro PC gaming with Windows XP for Hi res 4x3. I have a MiSter too so I’ll have use for one of the other monitors!

[@realmchat6665]

Nice video, I happen to have this exact monitor and it didn't occur to me to hook it up to my MiSTer.

[@paulmcenery5600]

What chord are you using to connect your mister to the monitor? Im using a super decked out 600 dollar mistercade and i think it should have the vga port.

[@ZezRetro]

Just a usual vga cable. Not a new kinda thin one but an old school thick vga cable I found at the thrift store

[@Evercade_Effect]

Me personally I love gaming in HD on my TV. Nice video!

[@voltz15]

You're out of the crt club!

[@davieslm]

I have two Trinitrons and just discovered how bad interlaced vertical games look on a horizontal orientation CRT. A complete squashed flickery mess and due to the case design its not feasible to rotate them. You can still buy brand new Dell 19” IPS LED 5:4 monitors with VGA and HDMI inputs. Model is P1917S with 6ms response but its 10€ versus 200€ :) Is 5:4 no good for Mame /Mister arcade games?

[@tdmax2288]

And tell me what is the difference between Dell 2007FP and 2007FPB models

[@Igorsov]

Probably just a color. The letter B at the end may mean Black.

[@PinballEddie]

Another great video and I know what you mean as while I LOVE my 20” CRT, I really don’t like having to rotate the heavy thing for some games. So is this a Dell Ultrasharp 1908FPC?

[@ZezRetro]

Mine says 1908FPt (stylized in that way). I assume the last character i just a regional variant.

[@Vvewa]

The only Dells like this on ebay Australia are $200-$250 bucks now and say arcade1up in the title. Heaps of room on that desk for two crts Louis, a powered dual output scart switcher like etims scartmux makes it easy to go to between gigawing and dodonpachi :)

[@jfroco]

It seems that you are not very sensitive to input lag: response time ("the time pixels take to change from black to white, or from one shade of gray into another.") is not the same that input lag I've got two rotating LCD 4:3 monitors (Samsung and Dell) to play shoot'em ups, but I couldn't play on them because of the lag, artifacts, frequency mismatch and image ghosting, but if it is OK to you. Congratulations!!!

[@ZezRetro]

Interesting! I havnt noticed these artifacts on my screen. Are your screens maybe earlier models? Soon I’ll have a time sleuth and we can put real numbers to this 😀

[@luluuu548]

Is it possible to connect a retro console like SNES or Gamecube to the Dell speakers?

[@ZezRetro]

Use something like this www.amazon.com/Female-Stereo-Splitter-Adapter-Extender/dp/B07C3M2GXH

[@luluuu548]

@@ZezRetro Thanks

[@soundsonline796]

I was of the understanding they are 5:4 not 4:3 anyway I feel you. Just bought one myself for use with the analogue super nt and mega sg

[@ZezRetro]

Yeah, I got that one wrong but I have since picked up the 20 inch dell which is 4:3

[@Cmtz]

I'm doing the same as you. One question: What do you do for audio?

[@ZezRetro]

I have a portable Sony CD player with line in, which is nice for a bigger sound. However, these model of Dell monitor have their own speaker, the AX510 which attaches underneath the screen. It gets it's power from the monitor and has a 3.5mm input. For me this is a really clean solution for desktop gaming.

[@edsiefker1301]

I love my 2007fp, but I think the latency is a deal breaker for arcade games. Absolutely wonderful for DOS though.

[@ZezRetro]

How have you noticed the latency?

[@adamstalker5181]

Hey great video! Are you connecting this to the VGA input, or the DVI input? Thanks

[@ZezRetro]

Right now I am using both. PC connects on DVI and on the VGA I have my Xbox 360 connected. I then just switch inputs, works nicely. I believe I only did lag tests on the vga port but the time sleuth confirmed the 5ms response time that dell stated

[@adamstalker5181]

@@ZezRetro Awesome! So with MISTer, there's no lag using the analog IO and VGA cable to VGA input on the display? I wish I would've considered this before going a much more expensive route

[@ZezRetro]

@@adamstalker5181 😀 there is no lag out of the vga port on a mister analog io board. If you run that into a CRT then you will also have no lag. If you run that into a flat panel then you will have the lag of the panel. For my lcd it’s 5ms, which is a little under half a frame which is acceptable for me

[@TheRelen222]

Interesting. Could you rotate a regular 16:9 like this to play these vertical games as well? The black bars don't bother me.

[@ZezRetro]

Yup totally. If your screen rotates then it can work. There is probably a setting on the monitor for 4:3 or 16:9 stretch, set that to 4:3 and you should get black bars but the correct ratio

[@JorgeLopez-kt7zy]

How did you get the mister cores rotated in the right direction for tate? I have the same monitor but when I launch a shmup core its locked in tate but not in the direction that the stand rotates the monitor. Using flip/rotate screen in the menu doesn't change anything(unless I turn on vga_scaler but that seems to shrink the image)

[@JorgeLopez-kt7zy]

I have it connected from the io board vga to vga

[@ZezRetro]

Hmmm weird you can’t make it work. This is going I to a vga monitor or a regular tv? I’m away right now so I can’t check for certain but you can also try turning off vga scaler and try turning on forced scandoubler

[@JorgeLopez-kt7zy]

No problem just ended up using a hdmi to dvi cable with the ini setting you linked in another comment and now it works great!

[@ZezRetro]

Nice!

[@juanc.3372]

What model number please

[@ZezRetro]

This model is a 1908FPt. From my experience there are many of the 19 inch versions available. There is a 20 inch model which is much harder to track down and I would love to get also

[@flottenheimer]

Did you ever get round to testing it with the Time Sleuth? Results?

[@ZezRetro]

Yeah I did, in the upper corner I got it to 4,5ms which I presume the official specs rounded up to 5. So verified, it’s 5ms of lag

[@flottenheimer]

@@ZezRetro Thank you! Awesome news. 5ms is fine. I just bought two of these because of your recommendation... (had to pay DKK200, that's around $28 ).

[@ZezRetro]

Nice one! I am still looking for that elusive 20 inch version. I only ever seen 17 and 19s here locally. There are a few on eBay but with shipping it would be about 80 or 100€ and I don’t need an extra inch that badly 😀

[@flottenheimer]

@@ZezRetro Been playing TATE games all evening. Loving this display! Do you know what actually happens when 'Game mode' is used rather than 'Desktop mode' or 'Multimedia mode'? I can clearly see a shift in colors and contrast - but do you know if anything happens to lag/latency/response time? (I've read the manual but it says nothing beyond "Gaming mode - Mode suitable for gaming applications'). Which mode do you prefer?

[@ZezRetro]

@@flottenheimer Wow you have a Game Mode? I dont see any options like that in my OSD :D

[@tdmax2288]

bro, tell me, what is the best LCD 4: 3 for Mister FPGA, Dell 2007FPB? 1600x1200 UXGA, or is there something better in resolution, there is also a mini monitor on Aliexpress 9.7 inch from Ipad3 2028x1536 QXGA (but 9.7 inches is not enough ..) can you offer me something 17-20 '?

[@ZezRetro]

I am unaware of any difference with the B model, maybe a regional variation serial number change To my knowledge, the 2007 is a really great choice. I am unaware of a better 4:3 which is somewhat available. I believe there may be way more niche screens from Eizo which might be better, because Eizo is a great brand overall, but I have not found one.

[@ZezRetro]

I have only found one 2007 and I snapped it up immediately. The IPS screen is great and I use it as my daily driver. I think maybe someone like NEC had a 21 inch 4:3 but again, very hard to find

[@johndee759]

Please please play play it in 57.5hz. I think you have lag.

[@sinetwo]

Got two for £30 each. Ips panels. Not amazing in terms of price but decent enough! It'll compliment my CRTs 😅

[@Fistsofchaos1]

What kind of adapter will reduce lag on the 8bitdo I have the same stick and if I can reduce any lag on it I would love to

[@ZezRetro]

Hiya I dont use any special adapter for my 8Bitdo Arcade Stick. I think overall, the lag in that stick is quite fine and I dont feel a big need to try and get it lower. If you look at the Misteraddons lag testing spreadsheet, the average lag is BT: 7ms Wired: 10ms Built in dongle: 11ms The max recorded lag for each is BT: 18ms Wired: 21ms Dongle: 16ms If you look at the averages, I think the stick isn't too bad. It's weird that wired is slightly slower than BT. However, these averages are all still under 1 frame. I agree everything in the lag chain adds up and it would be better to have a 1ms adapter such as the Daemonbite ones. So I dont think any adapter will reduce the lag as such. The only way I can think to really screw down the latency would be to remove the 8bitdo PCB and replace it with a daemonbite version, which would be an ardunio wired directly into the buttons and stick.

[@MBeats27]

Is the anyway way to connect a console to a 4:3 monitor?

[@ZezRetro]

There are lots of ways, I currently run an Xbox360 via the VGA cable into this LCD TV

[@MBeats27]

@@ZezRetro what about older consoles like ps2?

[@ZezRetro]

@@MBeats27 Just plug in the regular cable, there might be a setting or maybe it auto senses it

[@MBeats27]

@@ZezRetro the monitor is vga but there is no vga cable for the ps2

[@ZezRetro]

@@MBeats27 That is a tough one also. PS2 doesn't have a VGA cable but some kind of component to VGA solution might work but nothing stands out. Some of the extron boxes would easily take 480p component and output 480 VGA. You could try going component to hdmi and hdmi to vga, both of these adapters should be not too costly from amazon and both be lag free. However then you still need a reasonable PS2 component cable

[@zombee38]

Lol cool video I subbed ...I own 4 crts different sizes

[@nikolazgeo]

Those dells have 16ms of delay

[@dbnpoldermans4120]

I've had and still have several of these. The upscaling is terrible. Convenient, yes

[@ZezRetro]

True, it would look sharper at native resolution. For retro games at 480p it goes alright for me though

[@DenkyManner]

Upscaling should be handled by the computer/emulator, not the screen.

[@MartiniGaming]

What kind of mister case is that?

[@ZezRetro]

I got it from this seller misterfpga.co.uk sometime ago. Misteraddons new cases are dope but for now, this one does the job well

[@Meerlu]

They are not 4:3, they are 5:4. You are stretching the image vertically. Just so you know :P I use one for retroarch, and using the correct aspect ratio there are small black bars on the top and bottom. Cheers. EDIT: Also the 5ms has nothing at all to do with input lag :)

[@ZezRetro]

There is a small gap when I am playing, that is true. 5:4 does sound logical and I agree, although not such a good video title :D Thank you for the input

[@tdmax2288]

​@@ZezRetro,tell me how to set up this monitor properly for mr fpga? i have retrocastle version of saturn video, there is no vga connector, can i connect this monitor to mister with HDMI to DVI cable?

[@modology]

there is no such thing as 5ms response in any TFT panel from DELL. not sure what is the model of your LCD panel but 15ms is about right, not 5ms

[@ZezRetro]

That’s interesting, how do you know this information? I tested mine with a time sleuth and got 5ms

[@RayDusso]

Isn’t a 5:4 monitor ?

[@ZezRetro]

Yup, duffman says a lot of things

[@yoshimitsu1977]

Which model is is it?

[@thomasatwell8896]

In my area monitors like these are hard to find. I'm almost ready to pay ebay prices for one. Awesome video for those of us who love playing games and don't want a back ache . I have one crt for retro games but would love a monitor for shumps 😁

[@ebayseller6040]

gdlk monitor

[@zombee38]

Somewhere in a remote location at the CRT lovers council High priest Lord gives a command: "a blasphemous KZbinr made some sacrilegious acts against our TV deity" ..therefore,.release the hell hounds to hunt him down...make him pay for this!!! Lackey TV tech replies: As you wish my Lord !!!

[@guddaboi]

Looks effin terrible. Sorry. If you have to use an LCD, at least it has to be an OLED that can handle blacks and preferably one with VRR so you can sync to native refresh .. oh .. and 4K so you can emulate CRT effects properly. :) It's convenient though, can't argue with that.

[@ZezRetro]

Unfortunately OLED costs more than 5 bucks 😀

[@DrNoBrazil]

Where are the scanlines? You know, all those games have been designed to have / use them. Not talking of your dodonpachi image cut up and right. Good luck finding a service menu on your Dell turds. Short story is, you have zero clue what you are talking about. CRT is way more than just a ratio thing...

[@ZezRetro]

You are tremendous 😀

[@nathankimball2519]

Can you share your mister.ini? I have tried everything and can't get it to perfectly fill the 1600x1200 resolution on my Dell 2007 using vga to vga with my analogue io board.

[@ZezRetro]

This is the file I use gist.github.com/MrBlank/e2833056183f3c8ca854946f802e66e5

[@nathankimball2519]

@@ZezRetro Thank you so much!