Customer vs Player: Language's Influence

[@julilla1]

To me, "customer" is a weird term in gaming. A "customer" would be a vague person somewhere out there who might buy your game. A "player" is someone who will be actively engaging with your game and whose experience while playing is considered. "Fan" is someone who has expectations of what their experience is going to be, more so than a "player" who might come in blind.

[@MarkDarrah]

indeed

[@LiraeNoir]

Well no, a customer is someone who buy your product or service (however indirectly, and there some debate about free-to-pay games). That vague person is more like a prospect, or potential customer if you will, emphasis on the potential.

[@YoRouable]

It's even worse when someone refers to themselves as a "consumer". "Consumer" denotes a mindless sort of absorbtion, like a bunch of locusts.

[@MarkDarrah]

Yeah I’m not a fan of that word at all

[@samkyer3279]

Completely agree, I can't express the depth of how dirty my soul would feel if my executive producer came in one day and started talking about our audience as "customers". It says so much about the studio and project and our goals for both. But it is good to consider nomenclature and why it's important!

[@MarkDarrah]

Yeah exactly

[@thomaskrogh1244]

when they refere them as consumer. which is not the same thing.i rather be referred a customer then consumer or fan which is short for fanatic. Etymology. Merriam-Webster, the Oxford dictionary and other sources define "fan" as a shortened version of the word fanatic. Fanatic itself, introduced into English around 1550, means "marked by excessive enthusiasm and often intense uncritical devotion". so fan is just as bad might be worse

[@Skeffles]

Great video and a perfect example as to why language can matter in game dev

[@MarkDarrah]

Indeed

[@eh3010]

I've always thought of it similar to books and movies. We're not customers of the authors or directors/actors etc, they're not selling their creation to US. They sold it to the publisher, who sells it to us. We're customers of the publisher but fans of the author/director/actors. Is there overlap between the idea of a customer and fan sure - but the differences are too pronounced for the overlap to be 100%. If something was wrong with the book I bought, aka quality issue - the pages were out of order, there's misspelling - the issue lays with the publisher and their processes and the expectation of a fix would come from them. The author not so much. However if the book's content and story were not what I expected I may critique the author but I wouldn't expect the author to 'fix' the story per my wishes like I would expect the publisher to fix their mistakes. There is weird nuances when art and capitalism mix.

[@MarkDarrah]

All true. The overlap between “artistic failure” and “mechanical product failure” is a lot fuzzier in games

[@eh3010]

@@MarkDarrah I feel that people do not yet critique games with the similar level of nuance and grace as we do books and movies. But I think that's due to the fact far too many people don't view games as the art form they are but as a product to purchase and consume without further thought.

[@melsplaining4156]

Me, a human, talking to another human: You consuming product tonight?

[@MarkDarrah]

That is how all properly integrated capitalism units discuss ongoing consumption

[@BonusEggs4Sale]

Reminds me out of something from Repo Man

[@ratbrane]

This reminds me of the anecdote you've previously shared where a media trainer noted you made it through a game presentation without saying the word 'fun'. Games should be played, and playing games should be fun.

[@MarkDarrah]

Too many businesses become so enmeshed in the money and lose sight of the purpose which ultimately will affect the money

[@ChanceDraws]

I think this is a good sentiment to share. Fandoms have become a big deal and sometimes separating ourselves from a passion can let us discuss it with a new perspective. Stepping back can also ease frustrations, disappointment, or the group think if it's starting to take over. And heck yeah! Love the deep dives into how decisions happen at game studios.

[@MarkDarrah]

Thank you

[@richofarrell]

Nah, I even work in B2B software and I don't work in my day to day capacity thinking about users as customers when designing/creating requirements. Sure, if they're going to chuck a million bucks at us for a feature that they've explicitly laid out, I can shut that off and think about them as a customer first, but 99% of the time, I care about what outcome my users get over the fact that they're a customer. People want outcomes, we create software that delivers that outcome. I want my users to be pleased with the outcomes whether they paid for it or not. Obviously we're a business, so everyone is a customer, but if the users of the software aren't happy with the outcomes we provide, they're unlikely to become or stay a customer in the first place.

[@MarkDarrah]

Yeah exactly

[@BonusEggs4Sale]

I've been meaning to say, I'm glad you changed your channel name to this! Much easier to remember than the previous name. I could never find you right away in my ridiculously long list of YT subs. Plus I would think it's better for the almighty Al Gore Rhythm and new -customer- fans to find it.

[@MarkDarrah]

Yeah probably

[@Beanjast]

This was really helpful to think about as I have this discussion often with colleagues at a university ie "students" vs "customers", I've got some more helpful language to use with this now, thanks! Theoretically (and this is sadly not always possible) if the education (the product) is delivered perfectly, there's no need for the student to interact with us as a customer after the marketing and tuition paying side of things is done. After that it's our responsibility to provide the best possible experience to them as a "student" and if we do that right, they shouldn't need to exercise their "customer" rights.

[@MarkDarrah]

That does sound ideal

[@Arauto_Kagnos]

I loved this video, as someone who is a linguistics student the word choices people make is an interesting subject and I appreciate this explanation as to why you choose to refer to us as players, or fans, instead of customers and the reasons behind it. It's not something I ever considered.

[@MarkDarrah]

I think it more important then often credited

[@rd-um4sp]

my problem with the commenter is that it poses either as opposite or mutually exclusive concepts and, in reality, we are both. At least when it comes to artistic endeavors. Big disclaimer: unless you're a oil sheik that can sustain the next 100 generations and opened out a studio out of passion for games, every other company needs to make a profit. Not ALL of the profit, but some profit. With that in mind, my rule of thumb is (to use an appropriate example) I am a player to Bioware. I am a customer to EA. Of course there are examples of exceptions on both sides and this different way of thinking puts developers and publishers at odds with each other. I wish publishers would also think of players instead of customers and plan accordingly so your P&L and cashflow is kept blue but that is hardly the case nowadays. They like to paint it red if your margin goes from 12% to 11% and call an emergency meeting. The sad part is that is seems more and more studios are thinking of customers instead of players. Mobile and live service influence with more data analysts to track MAU, UA technics and discover new behaviour science tactics in the name of engagement.

[@MarkDarrah]

Well said

[@LiraeNoir]

It's the issue of "making a product to make money", or "making money to make a product". It's about goals. Everyone needs to make money, but why are you engaging in this specific endeavor, with what goal? Which by the way is often misundertood, because the majority of companies do work closer (it's obviously a spectrum) to the second one. Not the majority of capital, but by individual companies, it is. Almost every little shop and store work this way, same for craft and trade people.

[@kiloalphahotel5354]

Thanks for the vid. Always great.

[@MarkDarrah]

Thanks for watching!

[@banjomir519]

When I am referred to as a "customer", the impression I get immediately is that I am an ATM to someone. Good job setting that commenter straight, Mark!

[@MarkDarrah]

Thank you

[@LiraeNoir]

Interesting! Because I almost assert, or associate, the opposite of those words. In a dev/industry context when I hear "customer", I hear "we're trying to treat them right, not to defraud them, to provide a good purchasing and playing experience, a good value so they'll come again for the next and sell through positive word of mouth". While your explanation strongly implying "customers are a source of revenue, let's milk them as much as we can" ALSO make sense. While when I hear someone with power in the videogaming industry talk about players, I have more alarms bells ringing along the lines of "those poor shmuck don't know anything, let's overprice, underdeliver, milk them dry, and with some ads and celebrities on our side they won't know the difference". For context I'm French, and I don't know if this difference is cultural (US vs EU or France), personal, linguistic, or what... but it's an interesting inversion. As for fans, I really don't like it. I don't think anything remotely close to fanatics should be exploited, and it's too easy for it to blow in your face (as many, many devs have found out the hard way). Edit, TL/DR: to me talking about customers in a dev setting is bringing good things into focus, about providing good value, good service; the opposite of this video's thesis. Interesting, I wonder if the reason for it is cultural, linguistic, or just different personal experience.

[@MarkDarrah]

It could be cultural (France vs NA) or corporate culture. Or respect is respect and we instill it however we can

[@maroon508244]

I love how well thought out so many of your videos are. Im taking a project management minor at my university and would love to ask you a couple questions about team management for presentation of mine.

[@MarkDarrah]

can you ask them here?

[@maroon508244]

@@MarkDarrah absolutely! I’m a frequent viewer of the channel, so I’ll comment asap once I narrow down my presentation requirements

[@DarthKrytie]

I think "content" is the worst. But, player is good. Fan, in settings when fan is the most appropriate terms.

[@MarkDarrah]

Content referring to the player? Yeah that happens too

[@DarthKrytie]

@@MarkDarrah referring to any media as content and players as content consumers and people as content creators.

[@george3660]

The player,the customer or the dreaded..consumer!

[@MarkDarrah]

oof

[@MizanQistina]

A player and a fan might not be a customer A customer might not be the player and not a fan either, they buy for someone else, for their kids as example Those who are fans might not have the money to buy games, they're still in college, they must use money for important stuff Believe it or not, many players and fans never legit buying games 🏴‍☠🏴‍☠🏴‍☠ 😁 So, that is something the game company and marketing department must think about. Who actually have the money to buy the product. The advertisement is for general audience, or targeted group of people or targeting those who actually have the money? Surely kid games which made for kids do not target kids in the advertisement, but the parents, right? 😆

[@MarkDarrah]

For sure “purchaser” and player may be different. The problem comes when purchaser is the only thing considered

[@MizanQistina]

@@MarkDarrah Business thinking-wise, purchaser is the only one must be considered, they're the one who actually buy the product. I give example, I used to sell second-hand books on the street during my hard time, there are many book fans, they come to take a look and free reading, but nobody buys even the books are all $10 and below. A woman with her baby walks by, I call her "want to buy some books?", I show her some books women with kids would like to read, she replies "sorry, I have more important things to buy". I packed up, go home and cry alone in my room. So, video game isn't something important to buy for most people, those who really have the money to buy games will buy it, most people will only buy what is important to them.

[@chride-devsgames]

I think it can be useful -- at times, but not to the degree of distraction -- to think of the *potential* (new) player as a customer. Specifically, in bridging the dev team's and marketing team's impression and communication of the game. Because while the player experience takes priority once the player has the game in front of them, the customer experience -- marketing, discovering the game, price point, dev communications, figuring out if they will like it, downloading it, support, monetization, etc. -- is part of what often makes or breaks a launch and cements the overall view of the game. Blaming marketing and publishers for doing a poor job building awareness and giving, essentially, bad customer service is of course understandable, but imho a sign of misalignment -- and a lot of indies show there doesn't have to be a strong dichotomy between the two.

[@MarkDarrah]

You definitely till have to ell the thing

[@davidnorton573]

Well, I guess I'm a customer when I make the decision to buy the ticket to get on the ride, but once I'm there I'm in for the experience. In this case the experience is playing the game, so I guess I'm now a player. So being a customer is a small part of the total experience, although important to the people developing the game, making a living is good.

[@MarkDarrah]

Yes both is true

[@penvzila]

I would say if you know who Mark is and are going to the trouble of commenting on his video, you're a fan of at least something that he's made.

[@MarkDarrah]

Mostly true, but you'd be surprised...

[@mehdistitou7427]

I prefer player and customer than fan.

[@MarkDarrah]

Given the comment, I must have said fan but I don’t think it’s a word I use very often

[@Joshuaraymalan]

Leaning on the legal definition of "consumer rights" feels strange in this context as I don't think it would confer much in the way of protection. If the product boots, and contains more or less the gameplay that was advertised, I don't think your going to win a class action suite against it. I don't think I want to play something that's aiming for that minimum requirment.

[@MarkDarrah]

Yeah I would agree, I'm pretty confident all the big players are on side legally... doesn't mean they aren't still looking for exploitative monetization models

[@LiraeNoir]

In the US maybe, probably. In the rest of the world, it can very much so apply. For example in most (maybe all) the the EU, the seller is liable for two years after purchase for a product or service to be what it was described and advertised. If not conform, the seller has to fix it or reimburse you, and fast, and without any wiggling room really. And for a few years it explicitly apply to digital stuff. So, a publisher or dev is being "creative" in their trailer, or in their hardware requirement, or in their store page description, or adding or removing stuff later on after you have purchased it? No need to sue, no need to complain to your local consumer protection bureau, no back and forth dealing with a publisher, it's a straight up contact the seller and get reimbursed. Those issues about online games that close down after some weeks or months? Mostly solved through that, at least from a customer money perspective, it still damage preservation and other things. Which if it happen enough, can shake things up. I don't see a platform or store having to reimburse and deal with lots of people in that way being happy with said publisher. It incentivize them to put pressure on them, to limit bad business practices.

[@Joshuaraymalan]

@@LiraeNoir I definitely wish the US had similar consumer protections, but that's not typically how this is evoked here. I'm not talking about a game swap (like the KZbin ads you sometimes see) or even adding microtransactions after release. Usually, they invoke it for "this game did not meet my expectations," which is a fine way to feel, but unless the game is fundamentally broken, I don't think that's grounds for a refund, even by EU rules. In either case, I still think I prefer to be thought of as something more than a "customer" as a matter of principle. If my only relationship to a creative is an ATM, I don't think I'm going to enjoy the product.

[@Joshuaraymalan]

@@MarkDarrah Thanks for the response. Yes, legal feels like a low hurdle. I would hope that my relationship to the game maker goes beyond "minimum viable product to justify extracting money from you." I hope it goes without saying by the fact I'm here that the games you worked on mean a lot more to me than that. I can't imagine DA would have stuck with me like it has if you folks didn't think of us as players and fans.

[@jamiezhou5049]

Customers, some weak mind people are forced to buy the game to catch the trend. It depends locations. But Asian countries are the worst.

[@MarkDarrah]

There are definitely games that cross a threshold and get purchased by people simply due to the conversation

[@thomaskrogh1244]

your confusing customer with consumer. costumer is a honest transaction. consumers is people you milk the fuck out of.

[@MarkDarrah]

Maybe. Maybe that' the point

[@thomaskrogh1244]

@@MarkDarrah actually it fuck with our psychicy journalist from the 1920s did articles about how companies were starting to use it more. hell theirs been studies that the two words have different effect on the mind.

[@seneca4625]

Never take anyone seriously who uses the word "problematic" in their criticism.

[@MarkDarrah]

eh. I don't have an issue with it

[@argylemanni280]

You're sitting in front of a wall of merchandise and you've got a t-shirt store right here. I think it's okay to call people customers.

[@MarkDarrah]

Of course. But it comes with implications that influence behavior