Cutting the Fat: Batman and the Sanctuary Murderers (Dialogue Writing for Beginners)

[@arios6443]

Nearly every writing class I've ever attended has mentioned "killing your darlings." So, when do we get the follow-up lesson about "killing" quirky millennial dialogue?

[@melgibsonafter5beers626]

As soon as writing classes how to teach write again.

[@LegacyComics100]

Slaughter your word spaghetti.

[@Legendary_Detective-Wobbuffet]

Killing Joss Whedon

[@comentedonakeyboard]

As you know, this is the comment Section.

[@davfree9732]

They say that but everything people write here is what I say to people and I don't know why!

[@comentedonakeyboard]

@@davfree9732 because reasons 😂

[@RavemastaJ]

But is it really a comment section if some comments get pruned?

[@chelvo56]

As you now, this sentence starts with "As you know"

[@juanrodriguez9971]

Where among bots and worthless emojis thousands share their opinions and views about the video, yet, only a few selected by the majority will ever be read by those who enter.

[@zerothefaceless4888]

I like how this video is just 3 and half minutes long. Your point here is about avoiding unnecessary dialogue that would clutter the scene and the video itself is an example of it being done right. Short, to the point, with no filler and padding, just the essence.

[@angelsofblood9879]

This series made me angry. As a someone with shrapnel from my first deployment, I really appreciated the idea of heroes seeking mental health treatment. Everyone in their daily lives digests and works through countless different stressors, and a book displaying heroes working through their trauma is a healthy way to show folks how to properly and safely seek help. What did they do? They end up showing that people who seem mental health are unrecoverable, and that all of the heroes in the DC universe are broken assholes. And they killed arsenal, a recovered alcoholic who was a great counter point to Red Hood in the series Red Hood and Outlaws. Arsenal went to seek help when he was falling off the wagon, and DC used his death as a shock tool.

[@ShadowWingTronix]

I was disappointed in what they did with The Protector, a character introduced in a Teen Titans anti-drug series of PSA comics that I always thought deserved a better showing, even in a supporting role. King makes him so worked up by his one-man war on drugs that he becomes a drug addict himself, then adds him to the body count. The DC heroes I grew up with didn't need a place like Sanctuary because they weren't suffering from mental issues, which is the only kind of character King can write.

[@angelsofblood9879]

@@ShadowWingTronix, you hit the nail on the head. This wasn't a story of folks coming to terms, it was a way to make everyone appear to be broken/ or a monster. What a terrible series that promoted the kind of ideals that no one should follow.

[@immikeurnot]

@@ShadowWingTronix I mean... Batman has always been dealing with mental issues. The whole "my parents were killed so I dress up like a bat and fight crime every night" thing isn't something a healthy mind does.

[@MrCattlehunter]

If huge parts of someone's cultural identity is defined by - and their virtue derived from - carrying a cross to their own suffering around with them everywhere, the idea that it could be put down quickly becomes taboo.

[@ShadowWingTronix]

@@immikeurnot Forgive me if I sound like I'm raging against you (he says as he writes this) because I'm not. This has just become one of my pet peeves over time, like "it's just a pair of glasses". Yes, Bruce was inspired to become a crimefighter and go after criminals the law misses or can't touch because of what happened that night in what would be called Crime Alley. The whole bat theme is meant to be a psychological edge against the criminals because they're a "superstitious, cowardly lot" so he uses their fear against them. He's no more crazy than Oliver Queen in a Robin Hood gimmick or any other non-powered costumed crimefighter. His goal is to try to prevent anyone else going through what he did but until the broody 90s version he was actually a well-balanced person mentally. That's not to say he doesn't have issues. It's tough for him to get close to others, and yet he not only has a family in Gotham but has been part of numerous incarnations of the Justice League and started the Outsiders in addition to the Bat-Family. He's not "Crazy Steve" from ASBAR (ass-bar). The bat theme is not a sign he's crazy, it's a sign he is using whatever advantage he can come up with. I HAVE SEEN BATMAN SMILE! WILLINGLY! If Batman is mentally unwell for running around in a costume then so is every superhero in the DC Universe. Even the supervillains aren't all looney, not even in Gotham City. Yet writers keep writing Bruce that way because they can't conceive a hero can be a normal person. It's something that, as someone who grew up with Batman since the late 1970s, I get tired of seeing because it wasn't the Batman of the Bronze Age, the various shows, the first Batman comic I owned, or any pre-Dark Age version of Batman.

[@pinkiepower1968]

As you know, Tom King has a doctorate in pointless minutiae.

[@seacliff217]

Good dialogue isn't just providing natural-sounding conversations or cleaning communicating to the reader in-universe knowledge, but managing to do both at the same time.

[@LegacyComics100]

Tom King: The nine panels of nothing and word spaghetti.

[@ollietree323]

When I write my mind goes to the world building, the cool things my characters will do Here or There, or the Dramatic Finale. My mind blanks at dialogue.

[@jamesshepherd9390]

Something that might help you (as it helped me) is, for every scene, make a list of A: what each character knows, B: what each character believes, and C: what each character wants. Take the page in this video for example: Superman knows Commander Steel is dead. Superman thinks Batman knows who killed Commander Steel. Superman wants to know who killed Commander Steel. Given these facts, what would Superman say? Well, most likely, he would say "Batman, who killed Steel?" Even though this line is flat and without drama or personality, it is great to start because it provides the skeleton for the dialogue throughout the story. Once you have completed the skeleton, you can go back and add the meat (adjusting dialogue for how each character talks and thinks, making it more dramatic/realistic etc.)

[@227060]

Funnily enough I'm the opposite. I love writing dialogue

[@ollietree323]

@@jamesshepherd9390 Thanks great advise! This is also a great reason as to why one should redraft their work. You have a "Basic outline" now come back and make improvements.

[@theinquisitorisamage1653]

@@jamesshepherd9390 I'm not the OP, but just wanted to drop a thank you - this really helped out a ton.

[@pathfindersavant3988]

Cutting the Fat NIGHTMARE MODE: Order of the Stick

[@HutzilBomb]

I also noticed that the fourth panel fell into the trap of the character re explaining what they just said, this place deletes all information then going on to end the panel that everything is erased. Glad to see that your twitter edits are evolving into these little vids in between your longer videos.

[@0x777]

What is true for Jazz is true for every kind of expression: What matters is not only what you play (or say), but also what you don't.

[@jamesshepherd9390]

Why hasn't WB taken you on as an editor for DC comics?

[@jamesbaxter5147]

Because he’s not a radical leftie. Also he’d probably get reported by but-hurt coworkers for criticizing their work, which would force the company to fire somebody & possibly create lawsuits. Better to preemptively not create those situations, in the corporate-mindset.

[@Dr_Crow_Carnival]

Instantly better to read.

[@maliceflare]

this has been happening for a long time, ever since Editors have been reduced in power via the superstar writer/artist. i will always blame 90s Image Comics for that... i remember a page from Marc Silvestri's Cyberforce where a character had a full minute of dialogue while in action, lunging at another character _in the air..._

[@seacliff217]

Yeah. If this was a first draft then that's acceptable. Get the broad strokes that the reader needs to know out there before revising the script to make it communicated more cleanly is part of the writing process. Too bad it seems like the rough drafts are being treated as finalized works.

[@ShadowWingTronix]

I blame the death of external narration just because some writers didn't know how to use it properly. You could have put all that extraneous information in the establishing shots for the reader and the characters wouldn't have to mention it to get the audience up to speed with them.

[@jackuber7358]

Man, this is so true. It's like watching a WB/CW show, and its avalanche of useless and pointless banter with the ubiquitous smug final comment followed by the equally ubiquitous back turn/walk away to leave the other character to stew in the intentionally inflicted pain of the walk away comment. To which too often I find myself internally responding to the character walking away with a hearty, "... and f*#@ you, too!"

[@boogrs55]

this is the comment section just as Comented onakeyboard said

[@VentA_7]

I really like the idea of these single comic page reviews for writing lessons

[@sylvarogre5469]

Brevity is the soul of wit. Very good vid.

[@BobSmith-oo7ei]

This is good stuff. Do more of this.

[@Avarn388]

This is what I needed. Thank you. :)

[@azzahnoble]

I personally don't think Wonder Woman's dialogue here is worth culling. There's a conflict here between Superman (Batman knows) and Batman (he doesn't know). Without her dialogue, Wonder Woman is effectively neutral, making it pretty much balanced on both sides. Her lines here weigh the conflict much more in favour of Batman knowing, which makes it even more significant when we are lead to believe he doesn't. It also makes her active in the scene, giving her a reason to be there. BUT I have no idea if this holds up in context. I haven't read this comic, or any comic ever, so I dunno.

[@edcaous]

These short videos are so underrated.

[@objectjon9015]

Well this video kinda came right out of nowhere. Honestly though, I was kinda wondering what the “As you know syndrome” was called. Know that I know I’ll probably be using that a lot

[@insulttothehumanrace3807]

If you're coming back with the therapy session trims, you did a great job with those.

[@sonicroze]

Comic books should have as little dialog as possible. We want to enjoy the artwork, but read a novel. There certainly are novels about various super heroes, and they are free to get as wordy as you want, but a comic book is a visual media. Less clutter, more pretty art.

[@popularopinion1]

I love your longer form pieces, but please do these short ones more often. They're excellent demonstrations on how to quickly fix issues that are pervasive

[@rainspectre3153]

Alternate/additional one, have Diana bring up other questions for Bruce to then answer as well. That shows he's the one leading the investigation and the tension of the situation.

[@j453]

Yeah but, Tom King gets paid by the word.... LOLOLOLOL

[@yichlyichl4204]

I don't know if I'd have Wonder Woman be completely silent, if nothing else. Surely she'd at least be somewhat curious? For all the trinity have been through, Batman can still be a bit tough to read at times. That and, of course, him not having anything concrete to work with doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't have any ideas. Even if she's not skeptic, she'd probably believe in his abilities to catch stuff that might've slipped beyond her own notice (not her specialty, after all). I guess I'd only have her ask "Really?" or "Nothing?" Granted, it's been a while since I read this train wreck...

[@KamiyuArts]

Very good edit! I learned so much with your cuts. I got everything I needed without the “fat” of the scene. Are you secretly an editor or writer in the mainstream industry?

[@michaelobrien9053]

Of course not. If he was the main stream industry wouldn’t have as much absolutely atrocious writing

[@blazichaos7181]

I sometimes wonder if hes this good *Because* he isn't in the mainstream industry.

[@KamiyuArts]

I have a theory that he was a student in literature or something of the like but I feel that he was an editor / writer who worked for mainstream for some time but chose to break off. Although it’s completely possible that he’s just an extremely well learned and well read individual with a deep passion for comics. But the way that he treats and applies theories suggest a deeper level of knowledge that goes beyond that of the average fan. Since there were times during live streams when he kinda diverts into theories when certain topics are brought up. He’s very grounded actually. That’s why I love his videos! So good hahaha But yes, the mainstream would definitely benefit if he were there. Unfortunately, politics both in the office and literal sense of things do get in the way for the mainstream. XP

[@SepoMorales]

Good section, pretty usefull

[@duaneepps7346]

look forward to more

[@jim-bob3093]

Bats retorting to being underhandedly accused of breaching the sanctuarys privacy could so easily be handled with him asking Clark to remind him what Sanctuarys purpose is in a 'do you know what your implying, clark' manner. And when Clark gives the info Bats could close the statement with a "sanctuary needs its visitors to trust it. If i break that trust no one gets help" Easy fix and shows Bats respects some boundaries when it comes to heros... Then again canonically he beat the living shit out of his son on a rooftop a month prior... So Batman having any decancy is long gone

[@Sakanero]

Ooo. Nice

[@elucidator1277]

While I agree that writers def need to learn to trim the fat off stuff...i dont really hate this scene, as is. I don't think it's always a bad thing to have dialogue meant solely for the audience, even if it's a bit unnatural. : /

[@oddmanout8692]

It doesn't need to be explained. The place us for Superheroes, so erasure means it's content shouldn't be public record.

[@nenmaster5218]

!!

[@dangersquirrel4868]

Do you ever get the feeling that one of the reason modern writers are so overly verbose is because of the word count thing we all had to deal with in school? Like, maybe they think if they don't hit a certain minimum word count, they didn't do their job properly.

[@melgibsonafter5beers626]

Sanctuary is just... a terrible idea for a story.

[@227060]

Its not terrible innately, but I think it is terrible in the context of the DC universe as established. If this was a self-contained story about original characters, or characters who are even clear stand-ins for other characters, I think it might have worked...so long as King didn't write it

[@melgibsonafter5beers626]

@@227060 So what you're saying is if it was a completely different story in a completely different setting with a completely different author, it might be good. I guess I can't argue with that.

[@andrehashimoto8056]

@@melgibsonafter5beers626 The core concept has potential, buuuut as you should know of Hacks, Inepts and Woketards..... Their stuff is innately bad and as such they overrely on BRAND RECOGNITION to push their Shit Negative value quality works. Either the DC characters would HAVE to be fit for the "Idea" of the plot (Anti Heroes, specially those that are either Army Vets with PTSD, former Criminals, Victims of severely harsh Crimes (but who aren't stable to Bruce Wayne Levels, that's: barely able to keep a normal life outside their Vigilantism)....) But the best bet would be Original world OCs Original Plot.

[@von_nobody]

LD pleas do not fat shaming Tom King! :>

[@tshepisko6942]

First

[@vocalysemusicworks]

Just subscribed. Recommended from the Gary @Nerdrotic channel. :)