Canadian Air Force Struggles with Replacement Trainer

According to one opinion piece, the CT-155 is old and, with no suitable replacement on the horizon, leaves the Canadian Air Force in a precarious position. Mover and Gonky discuss! nationalpost.com/opinion/jami... Join the channel to watch LIVE every Monday at 8PM ET or to see full episodes of The Mover and Gonky Show. You can also join in on LIVE Q&As with the Mover Mailbag: / @cwlemoine Monday at 8PM ET, Mover (F-16, F/A-18, T-38, 737, helicopter pilot, author, cop, and wanna be race car driver) and Gonky (F/A-18, T-38, A320, dirt bike racer, author, and awesome dad) discuss everything from aviation to racing to life and anything in between.
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[@hughjass1044]

Canadian veteran here..... There's actually quite a bit more going on here than there might at first seem. It's not really an issue of "old" aircraft. The Hornets themselves date to the early 80s, we kept the Sea Kings flying well into the 90s until they were literally dropping out of the sky and we have transport, patrol and other aircraft that are much older than the CT-155s. The root of the problem here in Canada is a lack of commitment to the armed forces which translates into a lack of funding which leads to a lack of equipment, lack of personnel and all manner of other downstream problems. This is hardly a new problem but it has now reached such a state that it has become terminal. As the DM himself said, the CAF is in a "death spiral." For decades, successive Canadian governments have strived to "keep up appearances" as best they can but there has never been any real effort to maintain an effective fighting force beyond what was absolutely necessary to avoid the government looking too bad in front of our allies. But even those feeble attempts have now been largely abandoned since there is widespread acknowledgement that we're not fooling anyone anymore.

[@Dev-ou1nj]

You forgot the toxic leadership environment

[@hughjass1044]

I didn't "forget" anything. I just didn't list every single one or the post would have been a mile long. "...... and all manner of other downstream problems." That statement encompasses toxic leadership.@@Dev-ou1nj

[@rugheadedporchmonkey]

@@Dev-ou1nj ALL PREVIOUS GOVERNMENTS REGUARDLESS OF POLITICAL STRIPE!

[@JBob-qv2fd]

​@Dev-ou1nj I keep heating about that, but nobody ever seems to articulate what they mean by it

[@dhardy6654]

Canada has always been a death spiral, why do you think it's just the military? There has never been a good day being a Canadian.

[@tlevans62]

This sort of underfunding everything is why I left the RCAF and joined the ADF, as in the Australian Military. Canadian politicians are embarrassed they have to fund any sort of military, except for "peacekeeping" which is mostly subsidized by the UN.

[@mikemontgomery2654]

Leftist politicians* Harper at least procured the C-17, C-130J and new build Chinooks. The liberals got in and proceeded to gut it all out.

[@creid7537]

... and the UN is subsidized by Canadian Taxpayer money

[@lloydkuepfer1599]

The problem with Canada is bad governance. And lack of funding

[@gunny1234]

its not actually about the CT 155,its the fact that we don't have the people to maintain them,the pilots to instruct ,or the money the CAF is in a sorry ass state these days

[@robisverybad75]

maybe we should give more stuff to Ukraine

[@themightylion647]

​@@robisverybad75 Yeah we should! Would you rather keep stuff rusting at home in the remote chance that WE might have to use them against Russia or China?

[@robisverybad75]

@@themightylion647 oh yeah. totally dude. hopefully the stuff gets there before the Russians run out of ammo. coming any day now. pinky swear

[@jjaylad]

The CAF are so hopelessly, underfunded, undermanned, and under equipped we could be overthrown by a band of Alter Boys from almost any other country. No military on planet Earth has been so neglected by its successive governments. It is embassassing to watch Trudeau shoe horn his way into photos with the "grownups." Collectively, US citizens have infinitely more firepower than our military. Not advocating for arming Canadians, just for arming the CAF. It is becoming increasingly dangerous to rely for protection on a neighboring country that is becoming more corrupt by the second. It isn't Canada anymore, it's Cannotada.

[@appa609]

There's a backlog of trainee pilots. They're all bottlenecked at phase 1 basic flight training. Not enough IP's on that course

[@codyj7532]

The ugly truth about what is happening in Canada is that our staffing problems have gotten so bad that they can't staff the training program. As a result, they threw the "dated" trainer under the bus. Canada used to tutor for yeeeears as a trainer. We are seriously good at keeping old aircraft in the air.

[@ypw510]

Still using the Tutor for the Snowbirds. I guess they're keeping those operational rather than spending millions of dollars on a replacement. In any case, it sounds like if there was a Snowbirds replacement, the preference would have been whatever replacement trainer that Canada would be getting for basic flight training.

[@hornet002]

​@ypw510 the hawk was the trainer that replaced the tutor. Snowbirds kept the tutor because more aglie at slower speeds. This wasnt so much about the plane is the problem its they dont have any program and training designed for the f35 and are starting brand new pilots into it from the start

[@ypw510]

@@hornet002 Not everyone in basic flight training flies fighters though. Nothing really simulated flying an F-35. Heck - the pilot who ejected over Kamloops was a C-130 pilot before joining the Snowbirds.

[@hornet002]

​@ypw510 yes but (and i could be wrong) the hawk is only used for the fighter path, they split off before they get to jets

[@ypw510]

@@hornet002 Ames sense. I just remember Wombat discussing his training party, which included the T-45. But that’s US Navy. I guess they do that to practice carrier landings.

[@stvdagger8074]

I work in a government office and I am amazed that our military could possibly be short of money. Every time I go to the men's bathroom, i see that there cannot possibly be any serious financial issues for our goveerment0 If they have sufficient funds to install free tampon dispensers in very government office men's bathroom, we must not have any major issues that need funding.

[@djsmith2871]

So tired of talking about this (i.e., the sad state of Canada's military) and watching it unfold to a level I could not have imagined. But for shts and giggles, riddle me this... Snowbirds: 9 jets that are 64 years old. Hawk Jet Trainers: 17 jets that are 24 years old. Guess which one Canada's retiring? Unreal

[@12what34the]

It's too bad we never had the money to keep our military aviation industry going strong

[@SVSky]

@@12what34the You did, you just chose to spend it elsewhere.

[@klausschlobluvsmesometwood4679]

@@SVSky exactly....like 10+ million to a murdering terrorist the kanadian forces just finished up fighting, trudildeau, telling a vet "we have no money for you because you all are asking for too much" but then turns around and doles out millions and millions to every other country out there, look at all the millions trudildeau handed out just to bribe votes for a un seat which was a failed attempt in the end

[@gryph01]

​@@SVSkyMilitary aviation programs started tanking after Avro went bankrupt. Canadair (Bombardier) built aircraft under license, but did not develop new aircraft. We also had problems selling enough aircraft internationally to make it economical. DeHavilland Canada produced military versions of their regional aircraft. But they went bankrupt as well.

[@matthewgibbs6886]

@@12what34the we destroyed avro just like were destroying all of natos ability to build their own aircraft looking at you saab everyone will buy the f35 and like it.

[@everetthagar2810]

It probably has nothing to do with the age of the aircraft and has more to do with the lack of pilot candidates, instructors, lack of funding, and an inability of the government to do anything to get out of the spiral.

[@gryph01]

Student pilots can be a little rough on the planes

[@Philistine47]

You raise good points, but the age of the airframes isn't inconsequential. At some point it costs more to keep old birds from falling out of the sky than it does to just buy replacement jets.

[@appa609]

​@@Philistine4724 years is literally nothing

[@Philistine47]

@@appa609 It depends on the airframe. Every aircraft is built with a particular service life in mind, and some are additionally _over_-built (intentionally or not), allowing them to serve on for years or decades longer than initially planned. But if you have a type which was designed and built for a 20 year service life, then for every year that goes by after 20 you need to inspect it more rigorously and more often for signs of fatigue; and even if the airframe itself is holding up well, systems like avionics and engines will wear out, needing more frequent and more expensive maintenance to keep the bird in the air. 24 years can be a very long time indeed. A fatally long time, even.

[@christasker2944]

There is a problem with the Rolls Royce Ardour engines.

[@djobert2402]

Canadian military, as a whole, is strugling with buying a suitable pen... It has become a national shame, since the 80s. This is what happens when the military's procurment is managed by liberal beaurocrats.. It takes years, decades sometimes just to make a decision, it's overly expensive, and they end up buying the wrong stuff anyway... Such a shame, an insult to our great and brave servicemen

[@terrencejones9817]

Considering the Hawks are much younger than the CF18s. It's just a ploy to save money.

[@donkeymarco]

The italian air force mid and advanced training is based on Leonardo's Alenia-Aermacchi T-346A ITS (integrated training system) platform that has newer avionics. Plus integration with ground simulators. The integrated simulation system are developed and mantained by Leonardo and CAE. The canadians, if I am not wrong, will train in Italy at the International Flight Training School in Sardinia (Italy) for LIFT. part of training. There is another base where

[@electricaviationchannelvid7863]

M-346FA (Fighter Attack) Multirole variant capable of air-to-air and air-to-surface combat with a 3 tonne payload spread over 7 hardpoints, advanced Grifo-M346 radar[24] radar, countermeasures and stealth features including engine intake grids and radar-absorbing coatings on the canopy and wing leading edge. It is being marketed as a light attack aircraft also suitable for aggressor and companion training purposes. The aircraft was revealed on June 18, 2017

[@fabiotuzzi3724]

Exactly,M346 is one of the newst advanced trainer, Italy build F35 on license, so the m346 bring pilots to know the F35 systems. Gonky Mover should look into that International school in Sardinia and get info about M346!! ;)

[@flojo7144]

Bit of context, FWIW: the National Post is the main Canadian national conservative newspaper; this is an opinion piece by Jamie Sarkonak, a hardliner conservative freelance Canadian journalist, whose military competency may not go much further than own the libs (currently in power).

[@WALTERBROADDUS]

Politics aside, is he wrong?😏

[@Alpheus1151]

@@WALTERBROADDUS No, he isn't.

[@klausschlobluvsmesometwood4679]

LMAO....you would rather have the lying liberal bribed places like cbc bringing the news to you?

[@WALTERBROADDUS]

@@Alpheus1151 so the Canadian Air Force is just fine and dandy? YEAH.... OKAY.

[@Alpheus1151]

@@WALTERBROADDUS moron, I'm agreeing with you.

[@jeremyc803]

we used to have a housing allowance called Post-Living Differential. It cost the Federal goverment around 280mill approx (a value that has not changed since 2008) to administer it. It was replaced with a new program called Canadian Forces Housing D...something. It costs the feds around 250mil to administer the program. They actually fucking GLOATED that they saved the treasure board 30 million dollars. That's 30 mil they took away from us. They raised our pay around 12%, which was below inflation over four years. But those two things should not be linked. My housing allowance went from 800ish down to 300ish. These idiots just don't get it.

[@sgibb6802]

Differential

[@kevindelaney1951]

My years of service 1967-96. 3rd Generation of family military service. x1 Grandfather, Infantry; x2 Uncles WW2 Navy, DSM & Infantry 3 WW2 beaches Dunkirk, Dieppe & Juno; my Dad, 32 missions with 101 Sqn Mar-Sep 1944. I have zero time for partisan comments on who ruined Canada’s military. Look at the following facts post WW2 in Canada. 1) Both traditional governing parties reduced Canada’s military when in power. 2) Both failed to renew equipment in a timely fashion 3) Both failed to fix a broken procurement system 4) Both cut military budgets 5) Both clawed back military budgets 6) Both failed military veterans 7) Both failed to get Canadian voters to connect trade & military alliances. 8) The Canadian voters themselves have never… ever… ever, made the status of our military a voting priority. Canadians get the kind of military they invest in. Guess what… Canadians don’t care to invest & Canadian politicians react accordingly.

[@TheLoachman]

Forty-three years in uniform, grandfather went to sea at the age of twelve and was a Merchant Mariner on a Q ship during the First World War, his eldest son was a Chindit and killed in Burma in May of 1944, his younger son was conscripted into the RAF when he became of age just after that war ended, surrounded by real Veterans all of my life . . . The only difference between Conservatives and Liberals, as far as the Armed Forces are concerned, is that we know exactly how much one doesn't care, but the other promises everything and then fails to deliver. The betrayal is arguably worse.

[@user-jt7qo8do9g]

I can’t believe what the Canadian government has done to my military. It’s unacceptable and must change!

[@dhardy6654]

Why do you people constantly blame your government for everything and never accept any personal responsibility that this is what you actually are. Why will anything change when this is what you always have been. There was never a day in the past when it was good to be Canadian, you never stood for anything and always just taken what you were given and the only regret you feel is embarrassment.

[@user-jt7qo8do9g]

@@dhardy6654 actually most of the time in my life in Canada has been very good. I’m 63 and the only rough times have been under the leadership of a Trudeau!

[@dhardy6654]

@@user-jt7qo8do9g the direction it's has been going has never changed. It's hard for me to say it even has accelerated. The things my grandfather said in the late 70s were as true then as today.

[@user-jt7qo8do9g]

The German’s held the production line open for Canada to purchase Leopard II main battle tanks. The first Trudeau wouldn’t purchase anything. We were stuck with the Leopard one which was totally inadequate for us overseas. When he decommissioned the HCMS Bonaventure he sent the World War Two 40mm Bofor antiaircraft gun guns to defend our base in Lahr. But we did get brand new CF 18’s to replace our CF104’s lol.

[@Blowinshiddup]

One of the aspects not talked about is how the CF contracted out almost all non-combat (Training systems, SAR) aircraft and services. When they did that, it eliminated a large amount of manning pool to fill voids that kept opening up in Maritime Helicopter and Fighter Group units. The "Jammy" postings are a brass ring that few get to reach after slogging it out in some shitty postings.

[@sundog8775]

I read another article that cited the CAF needs to cut $1B from its budget. I think that's more likely the root cause of the issue.

[@Huskycomicowner]

They don't need to they are being forced to.

[@416to613]

The contract expired and wasn't renewed. And maintaining a whole training fleet to pump out a dozen pilots per year just isn't worthwhile. Especially when the Hawk fleet isn't suitable to train for a fifth generation fighter.

[@Huskycomicowner]

@416to613 a 5th generation fighter that Canada doesn't need. The super hornet or the gripen. would have done the same job at a lower overall cost. Canada rarely does first strike missions. Which in my opinion is the only thing besides recon stealth aircraft have any true advantages in.

[@416to613]

@@Huskycomicowner The NGFC bid process allowed bidders to propose any configuration of aircraft, sensors and weapons against a theoretical set of missions which included everything from DCA to CAS. Turns out when you price in all the ancillaries and do a lifecycle cost estimate, especially over the 30 yr life the RCAF wants, it's not cheaper. You can disagree with the decision all you want. But current defence policy requires the RCAF to field a full spectrum combat fleet. NGFC mission sets were based on that policy. If you think the RCAF doesn't need those capabilities, elect a government who will put that in their defence policy.

[@Mr2greys]

Budget has been permanently cut by a billion every year from now on, it will impact force readiness in about 5 years.

[@richardfeldkamp1707]

The Canadian Air Force Demonstration team, the Snowbirds, fly the Canadair CT-114 Tutor. It entered service in 1963. The last ones produced were in 1966.

[@MrKbtor2]

It seems so simple, shop, spend a little (or a lot if need be) and get your kit. Until you know Canada's bureaucracy.

[@AH-wn2vk]

There is more to it than just the age of the aircraft. They started contracting the training out to a private company in 2000, and didn't renew the contract. They used the CT-114 Tutor as a primary trainer from 1960 to 2000, and the snowbirds still fly it today.

[@Jay121]

Nephew packed it in this year and is headed to school. Realized the armed forces were a joke when his company had 1 of 16 operational LAV's yet the military had enough money to fly several of 60 people to observe his company shoot holes in snow.

[@user-jt7qo8do9g]

We had to yell bang in the seventies

[@TheLoachman]

@@user-jt7qo8do9g Yes, we did. And "here's twenty blanks - make them last the whole exercise". But those were much better days.

[@justin423]

Literally every 1st world military is having recruitment issues because the current generation of 18-25 year olds is tiny as a percentage of the total population Talk to colleges about plummeting enrollment Same issue. The number of 18 year olds in the US is 25% smaller than anytime in our history And it will be bad until 2030-2033.

[@ObeyNoLies]

Not to mention you treat you men like trash and they don't wanna fight for people who hate them.

[@nimaiiikun]

M-346 or the TA-50 would be good for Canada. Dunno about the T-7A after the Boeing fiasco with Bombardier a few years ago.

[@YeongjunKwon]

RCAF should get the South Korean built T50's. it uses the same engine as the CF-18 so the transition should be smooth

[@Hyposonic]

Seems like a stall tactic to see how the T-7 pans out.

[@dlvivlviv]

Love and respect to Canadian Armed Forces from Israel 🇮🇱 You should always equip and maintain your army. The enemy doesn't sleep.

[@SpartanA054Moose]

Canadian Air Force is just a struggle

[@bcluett1697]

haha well said!

[@Galvatorrix]

There are plenty of Fighter Trainer aircraft to purchase, including brand new models. Canada is a joke and I can say that being Canadian. Our own General has come out and said that our military is an embarrassment

[@SeansAviation]

As I am sure was mentioned, the issue with he CT-155 was budget. They were part of a contracted program, owned and maintained by a private consortium, and set to a fixed contract date. With the delays with F-35 purchase and the next gen trainer, we hit the end of the “life” for this airframe and no one thought to budget for an extension. So here we are…

[@ViewsfromtheHUD]

This is cost cutting through and through. Nothing more, nothing less. The on going reduction of capacity and capabilities that’s been happening in the Canadian Armed Forces since the 70s.

[@5EyesIsntWatching]

The cost NP is quoting excludes the contract cancellation fees that were added upon leaving and returning to the F35 program. The CAF as a whole is plagued with political infighting and backstabbing.

[@garryleeworthy3004]

In addition to all of the equipment and personnel issues, here in Canada our politicians continually re-allocate funding which is then applied to their newest pet projects. Now that our pilot training is being farmed out, the government has announced the launch of a new drone program that will be established on the west coast of B.C. Does Canada really need a drone program on this scale? The first thing our military needs to do is to ensure that military personnel can afford to live where they are stationed. Many people are leaving now because they simply cannot afford to pay for housing and groceries in places such as Ottawa, Winnipeg or Vancouver BC.

[@epajarjestelmainsinoori9037]

Greeting from Finland. Finnish air force BAE Hawks are all 1983 purchase (40y, when our fighters were Saab Dragen and MiG-21bis). But we have a lot of domestic manufacturing for parts and able to maintain. This domestic manufacturing of parts came up some years ago after an aircraft lost incident where Rolls-Royce declined to take any role since engine parts were not OEM. Probably Canada has teamed up to keep a touch with the Hawk somewhere and also due to the arctic condition stuff which is likely very similar here. And also since we are new in Nato it's nice PR to show up.

[@JanoTuotanto]

We also got the "new" 2nd hand Swiss 1990's vintage Mk66 Hawks.

[@ToddVance-lw6wl]

Thanks for saying you would stand side by side with a Canadian pilot. Much appreciated. Our pilots train to be the best so that there is as little divergences as possible with other NATO countries, especially the United States.

[@nod286]

Glad you called out that this article is biased and that most NATO countries are facing similar issues. The F 35 is a 5th generation fighter and it needs a matching advanced trainer. The T-7 (replacing the T 38) is way behind schedule and not even the US has operational use of them yet. Also, the 70 billion includes the price of the aircraft, the maintenance, some base upgrades, and the advanced simulators. Canada is scheduled to receive or CF 35's in 2026, so training in the US gives us a head start on pilot training. Also, you need Canadian F-35 trainers! which I am pretty sure will be in the first batch of pilots sent to the US for training. You can't train pilots at Canadian bases until the bases are upgraded, you have a cadre of F-35 instructors, new flight simulators and the aircraft in the hanger as well as all the maintenance/ground crew and logistics support in place.

[@davidstansfield6944]

The Bae Hawk trainer is an excellent design. Even tho the design dates back to the early 70s the design is still sound and current. It's proven to be a dependable and rugged, able to cope with the abuse dished out by It's students. So why not restart the production lines. Surely there must be numerous airforces ,enough to justify the costs involved. At most all that would be needed will be avionics upgrading and perhaps an FBW control system? Perhaps a more modern engine?

[@user-he5me9td1t]

Great show, Mover. Your discussion with Gonky on retention and leadership is spot on and is even more important than the Hawk/ training jet problem.

[@gregorymaupin6388]

I can’t remember the quote but it went something like you don’t want someone in the military who is nice but someone who knows when to unleash the beast, I know it’s a bad reputation of the quote.

[@stanburk7392]

Welcome to the Canadian military. We can't keep the aircraft up and we can't take the subs down. But we do have tampon dispensers in the mens bathroom.

[@spartancanuck]

The Hawks were leased as a stopgap after the retirement of the locally produced CT-114 Tudor from training duty (they still fly with Snowbirds aerial demonstration team, but that seems to have involved a degree of cannibalization) and were never actually owned by the RCAF. This was another one of those OOPS WE NEED NEW TRAINERS FAST WHO COULD HAVE FORESEEN THIS situations (followed by HEY WE HAVE NEW TRAINERS BUT PLEASE DON'T ASK WHERE WE GOT THEM LOL). Not actually owning the things and the terms of continuing to lease them might actually be the bigger issue here, rather than the age of the airframe on its own.

[@TheLoachman]

"Tutor", not "Tudor", and the Hawks were leased to replace the CF-5 as the fighter lead-in trainer and not the Tutor.

[@spartancanuck]

​@@TheLoachman CF-116, not "CF-5".

[@TheLoachman]

@@spartancanuck Tell that to those who flew them, fixed them, or worked with them. Nobody ever actually called them a "CF116".

[@spartancanuck]

@@TheLoachman Good for them (or whatever you imagine them to be).

[@spartancanuck]

@@TheLoachman Got anything to suggest that the CT-155, which surely everyone who works on it calls by its proper British designation with a C in there somewhere, is not in fact leased and that this arrangement might not have been wearing thin?

[@Philistine47]

When (or if?) the RCAF gets new training jets, maybe this time they'll remember to buy enough for the Snowbirds, too. Their CT-114s are still the original type rhe squadron was stood up in ~50 years ago, like if the Thunderbirds were flying T-37s in 2024.

[@12what34the]

Yeah I've always felt they're kinda lame. Like I'm proud of them and their airmanship and I know the Tutor was Canadian-built but I wish we could have something a little meaner looking, something pointy. Seeing the american demo teams alongside ours feels like looking at hockey next to curling. Sure the Red Arrows are trainers but at least they look this side of the 1970's

[@Chris-dz3rs]

To be honest ,I doubt the Snowbirds will be around much longer . Shortage of cash ,parts ,aging aircraft and a lack of aircrew adds up to justin fulfilling his dad's dream.

[@TheLoachman]

@@Chris-dz3rs You wouldn't believe how high a priority the Snowbirds actually are. And the Tutor has advantages over bigger and faster aircraft - it enables them to stay in front of the crowd more, for one. And it's fun to fly.

[@FallenPhoenix86]

Doesn't Finland fly an even older model of Hawk than Canada? Not really seeing how that is a solution.

[@dmav522]

The thing is, the aircraft have hit their hours limits, so the airframe has timed out. And this is just the age old tale, Canadian procurement, we get shit all done and then expect our people to make do. It’s excruciatingly stupid.

The Canadian air force struggles with everything thanks to their administration in Ottawa, for instance their spending millions upgrading CFB Comox, Bagotville,Cold Lake and Greenwood for the P8 Poseidon and F35 Aircraft that wont even be delivered for at least a decade......why???

[@rockheadrocks]

Canada doesn't even own the Hawks. They were leased under contract to BAE Systems and the contract was not renewed.

[@Pepe46873]

Multiple modern trainers out there. We just expect them for next to nothing

[@TomatoFettuccini]

Canada's military is top-heavy and hollowed-out. We have more generals than captains, and pretty much no hardware to speak of. Those Hawk trainers have been in service in Canada for 24 years - _after_ they were in service in the US for 30 years. Canada regularly takes other country's sloppy seconds because John Diefenbaker sold out our entire military industry back in the 60s. Kind of like how things are going now with the conservatives and social programs.

[@universalhead]

U.S. Senator: Canada's a freeloader on defence and it's getting tiring. This has been the norm for many years now.

[@Paramonos01]

Yeah. But if Canadians had our own aviation industry, US would kill it

[@KalleKilponen]

10:12 The Finnish Air Force Hawks have gone through an extensive avionics upgrade (Cockpit 4000) that updated them to a more modern glass cockpit in 2013. But there are only a couple of dozen airframes left, since most of them have been retired due to lifespan limitations. It's probably a safe bet that they're already considering a replacement trainer in the near future.

[@KalleKilponen]

Here's an image (of a Hawk training simulator) that shows what the upgraded cockpits look like: i.postimg.cc/GmGv8smM/Simulator-htd13-patria-web1.jpg

[@Chris-dz3rs]

Canadian Airforce "Flying Yesterday's Aircraft Tomorrow " BTW, has Justin gotten around to replacing those 155mm howitzers and Leopard 2 tanks he made the forces give away ?

[@jazzmandan7056]

‘Morning guys ☕️..Well said, well done, on point, on target and all that 😎 Civilian fixed wing guy here. One of my favourite sayings when someone tells me they ‘can’t’, I remind them that in 1969, we put three men on the moon and you can’t do.. (whatever it is I’ve asked of them..🙄). Up North, aviation companies have been operating, in some instances, aircraft that are 50+ years, (DC3, Dash 8, etc..) because they are built to last and for that job. They are also subjected to rigorous maintenance programs and life extension projects. Granted, civilian aircraft are not subjected to the same demands of military aircraft, but nonetheless, they could have kept these things flying. This is really bad optics and a colossal embarrassment for us. The 155’s were not antiquated by any measure. Nobody can convince me that they didn’t see this one coming.. 🤨.. And now, with Ukraine going and a seriously messed up procurement process, we’re really behind the eight ball here. They’re investing all kinds of $$$$ on upgrading the legacy F18 and the Tactical Griffon helicopter. My understanding about the Griffon from all I’ve read, is that it is a good platform that is welcoming of the upgrades, but being that it is pushing 40+ years, despite the upgrades, the stresses on these rotary wing machines would make some decisions questionable. Truth is, They really have no choice here unfortunately. We have no other fighters nor helicopters for the work they do. The F35’s are years away and there’s nothing (publicly anyway) to replace the Griffon. A lot of these machines belong in the vocational schools right now. Our current enlisted personnel are doing the absolute impossible best with what they’ve got. I salute them 🇨🇦 Successive governments here since the fifties/sixties or so, have slowly whittled down the investment required over time to keep things running properly in our military. The lack of planning on our part has created an emergency on our allies’ part. Coulda, shoulda, woulda.. Had they opted for the F35 years ago, maybe a replacement for the 155 would have been identified years ago and we wouldn’t be where we’re at now. Hindsight is 20/20, right?.. I’ll bet NATO is really relieved to have 🇸🇪 in the fold over there now. Keep up the great commentary and keep calling them ‘out’ ✈️

[@TheLoachman]

The Griffon is a civilian helicopter painted green and was purchased on so many lies. It was Marcel Masse's (the defence minister of the time) get-me-re-elected programme, as the MP for Mirabel, wherein the Bell factory resides. That was its first failure - he was not one of the only two Conservatives who retained their seats in that election. I could rant for hours . . .

[@philsdronelyshots]

Thanks for covering Canadian issues - this and the CF-18 Hornet video. Good stuff.

[@runem5429]

Oh, the oldschool insulting moustache dude...hugs to all of those guys, they built everything..

[@stevenfeser4907]

This article is an opinion piece by a "defence analyst". The biggest thing it is missing is that these jets had an extremely low number in the fleet, so the airframes were the limiting factor. Although they are RCAF assets, they were contracted maintenance, with an extremely lackluster overhaul cycle, meaning it was cost and time prohibitive to keep the aircraft flying. Essentially, all of the jets would've needed to be rebuilt at the same time, which would've still led to the entire fleet needing a hiatus. The writer doesn't quite hit the point that the pilots going on exchange will still be coming to the hornet, and it won't really be a limiting factor on the fighter stream. We are still 2-3 years away from our first fat Amy coming off the line, and those aircraft will be exclusively used by instructors in the states for the first few years. Beyond that, there still needs to be the operational conversion, so realistically, we are probably about 8-10 years out from seeing our first no fighter time students hitting the jet. The hawks will be used as maintenance trainers from now on, which was a much needed upgrade for technicians, as we still train them on the tutor, which is starting to become a huge limfac as the airforce continues to replace nearly every fleet in its inventory.

[@416to613]

The "writer" was rage farming. He ignores or is ignorant of so many things. From the contracted nature of NFTC to how hard those Hawks are flown to the unsuitability of the Hawk as a 5th Gen LIFT. I mean really this guy thinks that loosening dress regs is why we have recruiting issues. I don't know if these guys ever actually talk to an 18 yr old. Also, in the end of it all, given all the challenges we have, it's fair to ask if we to maintain a fleet and a whole training system to produce a dozen fighter pilots a year. Cheaper and easier to train them overseas. Especially if we can develop deep and permanent relationships somewhere with our own instructors posted in.

[@jazzmandan7056]

Thanks for putting this in perspective ✈️

[@KenMcGeachy]

I believe I read that part of the reason they are outsourcing our Canadian flight training is budgetary... not necessarily that our trainer planes are too old, but it's cheaper to outsource than to pay for upkeep on our own program

[@jimirvine763]

In the background is the fact that the Hawk is actually not owned by the government. The Hawk is a platform operated by a contractor that runs NATO Flying Training in Canada. The contract was under review when I left the RCAF and I believe it had to be ended with the current contractor and renegotiated with new proponents - especially now since the f35 is now back on the books. The lack of strategic forethought of our current government is unbelievable. They forced the end of the F-35 purchase before they got into power, threw the fighter replacement program into disarray in the early years of their mandate, delayed the replacement of the 18s with constant requests for proposals, and then ended up buying the F35 ten years after cancelling it. Now the RCAF is in catch up mode.

[@NovaScotiaNewfie]

Recruiting and retention is a big issue but funding is always an issue. From acquiring kit, proper maintenence of the kit, operational capability. All to due with a lack of funding. Make due with what you got is our Federal Government's policy regardless of what party is in power

[@Bob10009]

The RAF flies the T2 Hawk which is almost the same as the Canadian ones - both a generation newer than your T45s. The RAF has just started looking at what will replace their Hawks in the 2030s. Sending Canadians to Finland to learn in FORTY year old Hawks which the RAF has already retired (apart from the Red Arrows) makes absolutely no sense.

[@Watchandcutgearchannel]

You guys are awesome 😎

[@thesaltysergeant4103]

Boomer is right. It is a top down decision, and I think its a Budgetary issue. Our Current Govt in Canada do not want to fund the Military. So they pawn it off on other countries to do the job we should be doing. My son is entering the CAF and wants to take the pilot stream. Looks like, if he makes it through, he will be going to Texas.

[@peterhuffam1006]

I am a Canadian Forces Veteran. I got out in 1996, with a great big “golden handshake”, as part of the Chrétien Government’s “Peace Dividend” orgy of military cut-backs. The present state of the Canadian Armed Forces is a direct result of the average Canadian Taxpayer being naive about how the world actually works and our international obligations. These Taxpayers are also selfish and at least 50% of our population are just plain stupid. The Politicians promise Tax cuts, but the people want all the services without actually paying their share….so what gets cut first? The Armed Forces. ……then…the shit hits fan somewhere, Glamour Boy Trudeau talks big on TV promising to “Do Something”, and then hides from reporters until the problem goes away. So, to recap - the political will to properly staff and maintain professional standing Armed Forces simply does not exist in Canada. I fucking HATE saying this, but it is a demonstrable fact.

[@craigquann]

Yup, won't change until we get rid of the clown prince.

[@user-jt7qo8do9g]

Yes it is.

[@ImGumbyDangit]

Hey, I used to be an Avionics Technician for the Canadian Air Force. I remember having T-38's on the base on more than one occasion. Strange there was no mention of the 64 year old CT-114 Tutor (Snowbirds).

[@deanbusch2727]

This is sadly nothing new. I served 10 years split into two different decades, 80's and then again in the 2000's. There has been a systemic problem going back to before WW1, when it comes to staffing and equipping the Canadian military. Procurement takes to long, CAF needs a more streamline approach, and getting people in boots takes to long. We have a disconnect when it comes to Regular and reserve forces, i.e. being able to transfer lateral between the two, and when it come to former CF members who want to re-enlist, (CAF needs a Re-mount program like the RCMP). The other and biggest problem is Canadian governments need to take Defense serious.

[@quanzhang8679]

Isn't the plan to transition to the FAcT program and sign for new jets later this year ? Remember reading might be the same Hawks with a refresh (that might be speculation). And I remember reading an RCAF guy saying that upgrading the, what, 39 CF-18s was to get things like AESA, new radios, avionics, etc. to be closer to F-35 capabilities and act as lead in aircraft for the pilots.

[@hoghogwild]

The entire fleet(94) is getting radios, navigation, new transponders, SNIPER pod and other upgrades under the Hornet Extension Program-1(HEP-1). 36 of the lowest hour airframes are getting further HEP-2 upgrades including the AESA radar, weapon upgrades.. RCAF will finally have the radar it needs to max range fire those AIM-120D missiles it acquired in 2017. Absolutely amazing missile with an impressive AN-APG79V4 AESA radar. HEP-2 cost US$862 million.

[@timolheiser7874]

The CT-155 Alpha Jet is at Cold Lake Moose Squadron, a NATO training aircraft, is contractor maintained aircraft by Top Aces Inc. Pilots train with the Tutor at CFB MooseJaw, and then they go to the Alpha Jet at Cold Lake. Graduates of these, go to the CF-18 for training. Yes, no professional wants to be on a halfass team.

[@grahamdrew5512]

The equipment issue aside, Canada's main problem is recruitment. We need to spend more on everything but there is no point having the gear if you have no bodies to use it. What we have we do miracles with but the "esprit de corps" is weak when hamstrung by low budgets.

[@WRX7182]

As a Canadian is so disheartening and so embarrassing. Now, Canada will rely on NATO training after Trudeau says Canada will never meet its NATO 2% GDP commitment.

[@artistjoh]

Most democratic governments can dither, but Canada has taken dithering to an art form. I had hoped the F35 decision, and the new frigates meant they were getting over their navel gazing, but the dithering disease seems to be alive and well. Sadly, the dithering demoralises pilots.

[@stupidburp]

Canada could switch to BAE/HAL Advanced Hawk trainers or Saab/Boeing T7 trainers. They would take years to acquire and might have delays. But the main issues are manpower and money, not equipment availability.

[@stupidburp]

I suggest some basic flight training in some high schools, using consumer grade simulator software and lectures. That should also include some basic small drone familiarization such as small quadcopters. Also, start a formal drone training program for the military. This can feed some people into the military with some degree of crossover skills and interests with aircraft pilots who might be needed in modern warfare in large numbers. This also provides a pool of people to draw from for potential pilot training in the future without having them sit idle while waiting to enter, often for many months or even years in the case of Canada. Give them tasks and useful skills while leveraging lower cost training in the meantime. Ultimately though Canada is going to have to create a cost effective and efficient comprehensive program of training and service for pilots with sufficient training and aircraft.

[@WestCoastVisitor]

Canada's Air Force training problem is nothing to do with aging aircraft. They just don't have many people interested in being trained and lack of trainers to do it. It is a personnel issue due to bad policies.

[@ADGMagic]

I'd sign up in a second to fly fast jets in a parallel world, but I have a buddy who is in school working towards flying the hornet and his stories about what happens on base personnel-wise and funding-wise has killed any desire of mine to sign up. Crazy, not taking care of your guys and letting your forces go chronically underfunded has a bad effect on recruiting/retention. Who could have seen this coming!

[@yarkobroda]

You guys should read the book Charlie Foxtrot. It's a short read with a few case studies of Canadian Military Procurement which is so FUBAR. Complete unmitigated disaster.

[@Marshal_Dunnik]

CT-155 Hawks slated to be replaced by Microsoft Flight Simulator and a $20 HOTAS from Walmart

[@electricaviationchannelvid7863]

Let me quote: The current PM, Trudope, called Canada the world's first 'postnational' state. So what exactly is worth fighting/dying for? Not sure on that one. He also personally insisted (against the military's advice) on training CCP/PLA soldiers in Canada...

[@charlesmaurer6214]

I see it like sailboats to train sailors. Earlier models can shift to training but learning basics even in an old prop plane can be useful in its own way. The sail boat trained captains have a higher tradition of seamanship as they learn to consider factors like windspeed and direction and think farther ahead. BTW finland is just anounced a new 6th gen stealth fighter.

[@maximilliancunningham6091]

You're mistake is in trying to make any sense, of Canadian Defence policies.

[@rederos8079]

Finland celebrated 40 years anniversary of the hawk a couple years back, or at least the original mk. 51 jets, later we also bought mk. 53 and 56 from Switzerland iirc, those are younger. The jets I think have all been life-extended and MLU'd by Patria, and they now have at least a fancy mfd and some sort of a hud. The Finns apparently love the jet, good as a trainer, good to fly and apparently kicks hornet's ass if hornet doesn't get to use afterburner in a dogfight, which is cool for training.

[@crevis12]

This is a leadership issue.. giving money and equipment away yet our military and society is crumbling

[@gougeonrichard]

The Boeing T-7A Red Hawk and the Lockheed T-50.

[@brianbowen2959]

T-45 has a very different wing and nose from the CT-155. That, combined with weight makes for a different animal. Canadian Hawks have (had) an 8G limit. Running centerline fuel tank vice wingtanks to achieve desired performance meant much higher stress-per-flight/hr rates than originally planned. A small number of planes and high sorting rate burned thru airframe life. The first 12 or so yrs of the program also focused heavily on low level as a means to develop pilot capacity without radar, rwr, t-pods, etc. Lots of pop-attacks and LL missile/guns d maneuvering. Canada also uses contracted services, including maintenance, for the training system. Similar to UKMFTS, NFTC is heavily influenced by the corporate interests. Cycling a fleet thru upgrade would have meant it was not possible to maintain the contracted pilot production. Fighter pilots make up 10-15% (rough guess) of RCAF pilot training. This makes maintaining a dedicated fighter training pipeline very difficult. Comparable nations often outsource this phase of training (Denmark, Singapore, even Germany goes to ENJJPT).

[@aperturemichelle]

Lack of commitment to long-term projects that flips with the election cycles makes buying big toys way more expensive and complicated by lawsuits.. but... changing dress regs cost nothing, although the pool of skilled talent may be tempted the commercial sector is still a better deal for many people USA and Canada alike in a lot of trades. until insentives like pay, housing and getting the experiences people want to get from the experience we are going to keep loosing people..

[@drewd2]

I don't understand why so many countries have troubles with trainer aircraft. Pilot training is so important, yet Canada is having troubles, the USA does to some extent, I think I remember Russia struggling to develop a trainer...it's actually insane to me. Then again, I'm not a military guy so I don't really know.

[@mattedwards8808]

Seems same plane as Goshawk used in USA

[@georgepelletier179]

You two did a posting about the T-7 delays and the lack of parts for the T-38. IT'S MONEY, MONEY MONEY. Canadian Air Force has the same problem as the US, MONEY. I was in the US Airforce from 1974 to 1995, 20 years. I spent 10 years in ATC as a Jet Engine Mechanic at Williams AFB AZ. I can remember back in the late 70 or early 80 ATC proposed replacing the T-37 with a new jet call the Havelina. It was to be built by a company in New York, I believe Fairchild. The engines were going to be built by Garrett, nice looking side by side seating training jet. It was tentatively approved and they canceled two months later, MONEY. I know the commands names have changed now but back in my time you had SAC, TAC, MAC and ATC. SAC and TAC got first bite at the pie of money then MAC and ATC got the crumbs that were left over. ATC in the US were always treated like "THE RED HEADED STEP CHILD" and I can bet it's the same way in Canada. You can't keep short changing Training Command.

[@tomb1345]

Most are looking to pack it in and heading to Air Canada , West Jet or Porter Airlines

[@electricaviationchannelvid7863]

100% true. Manpower collapse is coming...

[@Platinumsniper]

While we in the CAF may be seeing the same issue that the US military is seeing..... I would argue it's worse, since we have much less personal than the US Military. at full manning the entire CAF could be housed in Fort Bragg and there would still be tons of housing left.

[@ralphwatt8752]

Public -Private Partnership has ruinned the Military Effectiveness

[@codyj7532]

No. Wokeness has.

[@CentralStateMower]

As I understand it, the T7 is now delayed until 2027 due to ejection seat issues. USAF maintainers are good at their job but they can't keep the T-38 flying with spare parts, duct tape and prayer forever.

[@ASauce98]

I work as an AVN tech on the CF-188 in Cold Lake. In regards to the photo. there was a flyover they had performed for the 97 year anniversary in Cold Lake. If you Google that you’ll see theres more f-18’s than there is hawks they just don’t capture it very well. I personally haven’t been told why the CT-155 was officially retired but I will say that despite the comments I’m reading it was not an issue of maintenance personnel because the hawk is sub contracted out to a bombardier sub contractor so they provide their own maintenance staff. The RCAF is planning on purchasing a next gen trainer that will require up graded infrastructure on the base. As for the hawks I’ve been told they’re going to be training aids for the student technicians since their current training aid is the CT-114 tutor so the hawk would give technicians are more relevant platform to learn on.

[@ti1ion]

You are right. I just read an article talking about the Hawks landing in BC, I believe, at the schoolhouse.

[@ASauce98]

@@ti1ion that’s new info to me I seen a group landed in Ontario and they intend on taking them apart and sending them to CFSATE for the techs there. But it would surprise me that they were distributed to different schools across the country

[@ti1ion]

@@ASauce98 I am sorry, you are right. I just found the article and they landed in Collingwood. My memory of the place was incorrect.

[@EnigmaticPenguin]

CAF is an all-encompassing term for all the branches. RCAF is just the Air Force.

[@12what34the]

Yeah I was gonna say the same, I see why Mover confused it but CAF - Canadian Armed Forces vs RCAF - Royal Canadian Air Force

[@bcluett1697]

@@12what34the Yeah that the conservatives used CAF when they removed the Royal for a few years doesn't help. I'm glad they fixed it.

[@kutter_ttl6786]

​@@bcluett1697It wasn't the Conservatives that removed the Royal, they're the ones thats actually restored it. During the 1968 unification of the armed forces and its aftermath, which happened under Liberal rule, the RCAF became Air Command. It wasn't formally renamed the RCAF 2011 under the Conservatives. Same thing happened when Maritime Command was restored as the Royal Canadian Navy.

[@nickgorthius1017]

C.A.F. Will always have problems as long as Justin is in the P. M. ‘S CHAIR EH

[@murrayhelmer8941]

Shorten to it to “Canadian Airforce Struggles”. Be better scrapping it and combine it all inti the USAF if they’d even have us!! 🤣

[@brianhobbins6533]

The phase out of the CT155 has been planed for a long time. 419 Sqn was part of the Nato training flying center. The plan was to always move lead in fighter pilot training to another nato country. I watched many nato pilots including a few USAF pilots come through there As a rotational basis nearing the end of the life of the hornet. Once the F35 fleet is established they will then aquire and set up a new lead in fighter program

[@patonb]

So it's not the jet itself but the fact these jets are on contract to the Cdn military. The contract is up and Canada didn't want to sign a new one for them given the upcoming F-35 switch over in 6yrs.

[@Huskycomicowner]

The f-35 was a terrible choice for Canada, in my opinion. Canada is a nation that doesn't need stealth aircraft. Conventional aircraft can do everything we need them to do. The super hornet was the best option. With the gripen close behind. But the government decided to saddle our airforce with an unaffordable aircraft.

[@Jasshands1]

Planes fine. The lack of staff is the issue. 3 year wait to get a call back when you sign up. Yup 3 fucking years

[@user-ep6lw9vh3p]

South Korea is already selling t50 golden eagles to Poland our ally and South Korea is very notorious for producing high tech and quality equipment in a short period of time

[@user-ep6lw9vh3p]

TAI T-50 golden egale is an advance jet trainer from South Korea would be a great addition to the caf as it can also serve as a light attack has very advanced avionics and weapons for a trainer

[@Rurik8118]

Miss those Hawks flying low over the farm back in Sask ! Canada 🇨🇦 has been in a perpetual leadership flame-out 🔥 sending them out for training to 🇮🇹 or 🇺🇸 on older machines ….16:55 FA-50 ? At this point, we’d settle for an F’eh’-150… pickup, eh der boys?🛻 😂. Thank you for the share Charlie Whiskey

[@johnmansbridge3610]

Between 'woke' government policies and slow starvation of our forces, Canadians can only expect a troop of angry boy/girl/other scouts with slingshots to defend and project power....

[@scottmccambley764]

21,000 Permanent Residents desperately wanted to join the CAF over the past year. The Canadian Armed Forces accepted only 76 of them. The entire recruitment command structure of the CAF needs to be flushed down the sewer or recruitment needs be farmed out completely to for-profit private entities. Let "Top Aces" recruit and train Canada's next fighter jocks. They would do a bang up job.

[@electricaviationchannelvid7863]

You can not do a 10 year background check on a PR holder who has been in the country only in 2-3 years...that is why...

[@scottmccambley764]

@@electricaviationchannelvid7863 I work in K-12 Education with plenty of PRs. We all have to go through vulnerability Police Checks every two years. This background check is a poor ass excuse given the true desire of the majority to obtain citizenship. I can't think of a better way of showing your appreciation than serving your future country. Any bad apples would be quickly sorted out in the BQC anyways. Better to have a glass half full than to never pour the shot in the first place.

[@FougaFrancois]

Their trainers are almost as old as my own personal Jetfighter trainer .... lol