Cycle Faster For Longer By Fixing Your FTP ! Why Your FTP May Be Too High !

[@onlyfoolriding8223]

This is EXCELLENT. I believe with the advent of the ramp test, most people are training way TOO HARD, including myself! There must be thousands of TrainerRoad users doing work that is far too hard, and burning out. I know because that was me. FTP per the ramp test ranged from 262 to 273. I trained based on those figures and I always felt tired as hell, and I really plateaued, despite completing most of the workouts (extreme suffering). And when I really thought about it, there is no way in hell I could hold 273 for an entire hour. I actually looked at an all-out effort I did for an hour, and it came in around 245 watts. I am changing my FTP to 245 and training from there. I'm also moving to polarized, and so far I feel so much more rested and far less burnt out. I'm not toast anymore. I really think the TR sweet spot base training plus inflated FTPs is ruining a lot of people. I learned my lesson. Never again. Polarized seems to really suit me. I'm less fatigued, and have a lot more enthusiasm for my training.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Thanks Only Fool Riding 🙏 - thats massively appreciated. I’ve found the different lab tests really helpful, and like you was certainly training too hard - in particular when targeting threshold or sweetspot. Agreed ref the ramp test exacerbating this even more for most people. From the lab tests I think of the anaerobic threshold aka FTP as the power I can hold for about 40mins with elevated but reasonably stable heart rate, controlled breathing and ability to clear lactate in the legs. An hour of power on a good day is close to this level for me also. Having reduced my FTP accordingly I do find that I’ve enjoyed the tempo and sweet spot training, and don’t end up so fatigued. But when my FTP was too high, it left me very fatigued also. But the polarised approach is a great one - and will leave you sufficiently recovered for the hard VO2 Max efforts - for which I recommend targeting 1-3mins but at the top end of your VO2 max power range. Glad you are now enjoying the training - understanding the physiology has been a game changer for me also 💯

[@OUTDOORS55]

Great video on this subject. I think i am an outlier here but for me the ramp test undersated my ftp by about 20 watts. I got an ftp of 261 via ramp test, but all my training sessions felt way too easy. I could easily do 2x60 minutes at 260. Did a 20 minute test x .95 and got 281. Now my threshold intervals are 2x15 or 2x20, 3x20 at 280-290 and I can complete them with some effort. My vo2 max zone based off of 280 is about perfect as well. I think both tests can give you a good idea of your weak spots and what you need to focus on. For me it was vo2. Thanks for video really enjoyed it👍

[@leighgoodwin1726]

Hi Phil - Wish I’d watched this two years ago. Five minute FTP tests used at well known gym centres tend to exaggerate real VT2 thresholds even more than 20 minute tests. Thanks. Leigh

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Absolutely Leigh - even the 20min test exaggerates my true physiological anaerobic threshold / FTP. I became much better at pacing the long events and gran fondos once I actually understood what the FTP and LT1 is meant to do from a physiological perspective

[@jeromemariaud1856]

Super interesting Phill, an accurate ftp is essential for intervals calibration and progression. 20mn test as too much use of anaerobic sector and it must be taken into account. Good job as usual!

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

I always appreciate your incredible support, Jerome 🙏 - and for sure as you saw on my 20min test, I used a lot of anaerobic energy in the final 5mins of the test 🥵

[@titaniumben9923]

Great video Phill, the concept of threshold is well presented. I particularly like that Adam says that threshold is that point between zones, not a zone itself. Many people can't grasp this concept.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Thanks ever so much Ben 🙏 - and indeed it’s only since my lab test last August and this one in Feb that I grasped that the FTP/Anaerobic threshold actually is. And it’s a game changer - in terms of being more precise in your effort 💯

[@joegammon1550]

Got to be the best video I have watched about ftp. Really interesting. Well done Phil 👏

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Wow! Thats massively appreciated Joe 🙏 💯 - and super pleased you found it useful ! I’ve always had my own frustrations with riding to my FTP - so have found it to be a real game changer to understand exactly the physiological characteristics we are looking for. Faster for longer 👍

[@HaiNguyen-bl9cn]

A very educational video Phil. I haven't seen any others on KZbin doing a deep dive like yours. Keep up the good work.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

That’s beyond generous of you to say so Hai 🙏 - I’ve massively enjoyed the process of learning more about this subject and what we are trying to find - and super pleased it’s resonated 💯

[@kevinrussellsmith7976]

Excellent stuff. You’ve certainly grounded this subject for me. The peer pressure to have a high FTP is huge, especially if you’re a regular Zwifter. Zwift watt numbers and the reality outside on the road are two very different things it would seem. Another great video. 👌👍

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Thanks ever so much Kevin 🙏 - and I too shared similar frustrations - so it’s been a real eye opener for me to understand what we are actually looking to understand with this threshold 💯👍

[@RossHetherington24]

Really interesting video. One criticism of Zwift is the way it updates your FTP after a race. If that was one of the short sprint type races, then you'll have started fresh without the anaerobic depletion bit. Testing in the lab is all very well, but it occurs to me you should probably use your own PM pedals, otherwise the power could be off. And given the comments about 5-10W being crucial, you don't want that difference to come into play.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Thanks ever so much Ross🙏. And very much agreed - I always think that the auto update is at odds to their own testing protocol ! In the lab the power source was the lab bike - which is regularly recalibrated and accurate to 0.5%. I had my assiomas pedals on there also - and learned that they underread by 10W or more. So on the lab ERG mode test the 10mins at 265 into 10mins 275 into 10mins 285 lead to average power of 275W for the 30mins - but the Assiomas showed only 261W . And the WattBike which is also pretty calibrated to 1% accuracy typically reads 10W higher. So I figured ok. But key for me is more riding with a margin for error below the threshold - and watching the heart rate and breathing and feeling the sensations in the legs - in order to double check that I’m in en elevated but stable state that I can sustain for 40mins or so 👍

[@wafflefrywhirligig]

Crit City will ruin FTP especially with the numbers on Zwiftpower

[@foundfoundfound1]

appreciate the effort to dive down in thunderbird 4 and explore these matters. i wouldn’t be too down on the 20min test. it’s not perfect, but it’s a protocol developed for the general population as an alternative to the 60 minute test (which is very hard to pace for most people). the choices for most people will remain ramp tests (zwift) or a.i. estimates (trainerroad & xert). maybe when the wretched bbc license fee is scrapped fellows will have the spare lolly to spring for annual lab tests, wot? well done buzzing up ven-top twice this morning. i found that route rather a bore.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Cheers FFF 🙏 - I’ve enjoyed the process of learning about all of this. And for sure I think the 20min test is a good way to get into the ball park - but then needs to be backed up a few days later with the 30min ramp riding 10-15W below, at and 10-15W above the threshold - in order to find where the elevated but stable HR, lactate and breathing lies. Adam felt the Zwift Ramp to be very arbitrary - due to there being no science to support the 75% reduction, and people with good VO2 max testing way high. Agreed - Ventop is boring, but it has the highest gradients, and on 100% trainer difficulty, provides a tough challenge because it’s hard to hit a sustained cadence (in and out the saddle). And also wanted to experiment with riding 10-15W below my anaerobic threshold - see where the stable state lay.

[@chrissinclair6086]

Another great video, Phill. Very interesting topic. As an Xert user, I have improved by "dropping" from 252 to 222 I have increased overall massively. As a heavy rider, I just want to climb that little bit easier now I run a 1 x 12, 10-33t and where I am surrounded by 15% ramps.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

That’s massively appreciated Chris 💯🙏 - and this has been the same for me. I had a lab test back in August 2021, and learned to stick close to (and rarely above) my the VT1 and VT2 in training and on the endurance rides (save on the really steep gradients of the Fred Whitton and Snowdonia 🥵 ) - and was faster as a result. Conversely I also learned to train my VO2 Max harder - but for shorter intervals 60-180secs . Nice gearing for those ramps - nothing beats riding out in the country and having your rhythm interrupted by the steep gradients - proper fitness 💪

[@linesided]

FTP is just a metric on a given day. You'll be way more successful by spinning a lighter gear for longer, esp if you are a bigger more muscular guy. Plus you have the added benefit of muscle mass when it comes to the sprint. I recently trained with much lighter riders on perf pro, and even though they held slightly higher watts, I rode 15km further in the same hour. Says it all for me.

[@mattttt3057]

Another ‘bro science’ information spectacular! Have always disliked the 20 min FTP warm up and 5 min all out before the real test but now have a better understanding why, so thanks Phill for your efforts in the lab 👍 Gonna have to do another 20 min Zwift FTP soon, this time try the whole thing.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Cheers Matt 🙏 - thats hugely appreciated ! I’ve loved learning about the subject - and once you’ve tested your FTP, I’d suggest a couple of days later trying the 30min ramp (10W or 15W below FTP, into at FTP into 10W or 15W above) - in order to get a feel for where your breathing and HR remain elevated but stable (and you feel able to clear the lactate) - and where they start to progressively increase . I’ll be doing this from now, absent the lab!

[@IkkePressler]

Nice Video! I have made the exact same experience. Had a labtest 3 weeks ago, where I could use my own bike with powermeter on a calibrated smarttrainer. As a result I now know, that I overestimatet my FTP by 34 Watts, which is huge. I have been told, that i'm a pure sprinter (1534W peak, 1115W over 15 sec, 258W threshold) and therfore am able to hold power slightly over my threshold for much longer than more endurance based athletes, as the net laktate pruduction kurve is significantly flatter for athletes with high VLaMax. Even with depleted tank (5min efford before the test) the 20 min FTP-test doesn't work for me, ramp tests are even worse. Traditional FTP-tests might work for the majority of athletes, but are never an absoute truth.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Hi Mike - thanks ever so much 🙏 That’s super interesting and resonates with me. And for sure you sound like you are very fast twitch in terms of muscle fibre with a good tolerance to buffer the metabolic waste and lactate. So for sure the final 5mins of your 20min test would likely see you able to ramp the power to a long way above threshold and this is why as for me the ramp test creates an even bigger over estimate 👍

[@GiorgioCoppolaCycling]

You truly are a sucker for pain… lab testing and then an ftp test 😅 but really interesting and great video as always Phil 💪

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Pleasure Giorgio 💯. And for sure I figured why don’t dig into the pain locker a second time - in the name of science 🧪 😁

[@gerrysecure5874]

Anaerobic Threshold is a total misnomer. At Lactate Threshold/FTP there is only minimal anaerobic energy. Anaerobic kicks in above VO2max. Before there is plenty of oxygen available - San Millan I use 5min max, 10min rest and 20min max. Then use Monod Scherrer CP. Number is spot on.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

The video discusses the fact that the Anaerobic Threshold / VT2 / FTP is the inflection point at which the body just about able to still only work aerobically (with elevated HR, breathing and just able to buffer the lactate waste). And that above this threshold the body then needs to start using its anaerobic reserves (eg glycogen in the muscle) and can’t buffer the lactate waste . It covers what you are saying

[@kirsteenross5375]

What a fantastic and really interesting video. Thank you.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Thanks ever so much for your lovely encouragement, Kirsteen 🙏 - it’s hugely appreciated

[@LittleNinjah]

Well done on putting that together Phil, great job.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Thanks ever so much Graeme 🙏 - really appreciate you reaching out with such kind support 💯

[@robjones2613]

Yet another really interesting vid opens a can of worms in the world of ftp but as you say for most of us it puts us in the ballpark. Thanks for all your efforts doing it. 👏👏👍

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Thanks Rob - thats very kind of you to say so🙏 And for sure the FTP puts us into the ball park, and then I reckon taking on the 30min ramp just below, at and just above your FTP number will help dial it in a bit more accurately - where the HR and Breathing are elevated but controlled and stable👍

[@spou20]

Really insightful, thank you for sharing!

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

My pleasure Spoop 84 💯 - and really pleased you found the video useful. It’s been an eye opener to me to learn about this stuff 👍

[@brianyoung8599]

Great vid as usual - interesting how the numbers vary I do a 8 min test and remove 10%. It’s a number and work from there and as you say find the equilibrium- however you don’t find much of it when your racing. Keep up the story brilliant story and see how you go!!

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Thanks Brian - super kind of you 🙏 - and agree, now I really know what we are trying to find when testing for threshold, I’ll be more focussed on seeing how stable the HR, breathing and ability to clear lactate all feel when in the threshold ball park. And for sure - in the racing, not much call for it - save on the climb. Thanks for your encouragement 💯

[@daroskygeronimo2609]

this is a great video thanks phill i think 90% of the ciclist are training on the wrong threshold power zone.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Thanks ever so much Darosky 🙏 - and agreed, I too was one of those cyclists, riding to the wrong FTP and a little frustrated as a result. It’s a game changer to understand what these thresholds mean 💯

[@daroskygeronimo2609]

i was training a little too hard too specialy with a sprinter profile i like your content thanks.

[@TheDoctorhuw]

Top notch as always Phil Thank you

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Thanks Huw - always so kind 🙏. Hope your health is improving 👍

[@ethangodridge6833]

Another good one Phil.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Cheers Ethan 🙏 - massively appreciated Sir !

[@ethangodridge6833]

@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy As I’ve said many times, I like the data and science behind training. I met Phil Rich last week and I could listen to him all day when discussing training sciences.

[@paulmorrison30]

This was extremely interesting. Thank you very much for this 🙏🏾

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Cheers Paul 🙏 - really pleased you enjoyed this. I’ve personally found it really eye opening learning from Adam. The process started in the lab test last August - and that helped me improve my endurance and riding on the big climbs - but I think the improved understanding relating to physiology will help us make best use of our capabilities 🤞

[@ebigarella]

Very interesting! It would be interesting to check what the MAP-based "ramp" test and the quite unknown but very interesting Friel's FTP confirmation test. This one is based on knowing your LTHR and how stable it is through the successive steps of the test.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Thanks ever so much Enda 🙏 - I’ll look into those. Sounds like the methodology is similar to the 30min ramp I did to verify anaerobic threshold - see where markers are elevated but stable - vs continuously increasing

[@simoncuadros5353]

You should also compare it to the stair test.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Hi Simon - yes that would be interesting. For me I have a good VO2Max engine - so can typically make it through the 400W segment (with power increasing ever 60secs) - and this gives an FTP of 300W - which is certainly too high for me 👍

[@dieterbierman9803]

Good vid, I like some nuance!

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Thanks Dieter 🙏 - super pleased you enjoyed this - was amazing to learn about how nuanced this is from Adam 💯

[@engineerjmd3]

Nice Video Phil. All this is why I tend to take my FTP from what I can actually maintain for a 1-hour race on Zwift now. Or a full effort on the Alpe. The 20 minute test isn't 'bad' just prone to error shall we say? And the ramp test (at least as done by Zwift) tends to massively overstate my FTP.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Thanks Jim 🙏- and agreed💯, I’ve been intuitively doing the same for some time now. Adam said a well trained person can hold their anaerobic threshold for about 40-45mins . For me this works up to threshold - but oddly enough in need to train VO2Max above the levels specified by Zwift - but for 60-180secs 👍

[@global_nomad.]

it feels like the general takeaway from this is to not be absolute about the numbers unless you have been properly tested - using ftp asa guide together with your experience and feel to make a judgement on where a more realistic threshold level is , and think about that threshold as a zone boundary. very interesting..thanks

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

So pleased that you found this useful, Global Nomad 💯 - and for sure that’s my takeaway. In the future once I’ve tested my ftp using the 20min test, then a couple of days later, I’ll ride the 30min ramp (power 10-15W below FTP into at FTP into 10-15W above FTP) in order to gauge the sensations - and see at which point my heart rate and breathing is elevated, but stable (plus feel able to clear the lactate) vs when they start to rise / feel less comfortable 👍

[@valiantabello]

The problem for me is that no matter how fit I am I always test poorly. It's a mental issue for me. Love your videos!

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Thanks ever so much Valiant 🙏 - super kind of you ! And if you don’t test well - just ride the FTP test - calculate the number and this gives you a ball park. And then 2 days later ride the 30min ramp / starting 10w below the ftp into at ftp into 10w above - and if your heart rate and breathing is elevated and stable - throughout add another 10mins. But when these markers drift up you’ll know where it lies

[@foundfoundfound1]

for your next foray into physiological profiling, i recommend a dexa scan. knowing how much bone mass, skeletal muscle mass, ffmi, visceral fat (relative to population norms) is quite useful to know. endurance cycling, as you’re aware, doesn’t do much for the former two. you might compare results after a 12 week strength training block. in his diaries alan clark (mp for plymouth south & kensington) was constantly fretting about physical decline. this is how most fellows over 40 treat bone/muscle tissue: as a savings account which is constantly raided, with an ever-dwlindling balance, and seldom added to.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

I’m a big advocate of looking after your body composition, FFF - one of the key reasons I keep the strength in. And for sure more muscle, stronger bones and less fat externally and internally are things to strive for, as we age. And in my experience maintaining the strength training does delay the loss of muscle. I’ll look into the Dexia - I’ve never had one. Only the 12 point calliper test from a very well trained practitioner 👍

[@foundfoundfound1]

@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy calipers only ‘measure’ subcutaneous fat (if they’re properly calibrated). a dexa scan shows bone, fat, water, subcutaneous & visceral fat, its distribution throughout the body. no need to remove clothes either.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

@@foundfoundfound1 yes - agreed the Dexa is more accurate and looks under the hood also. I was simply saying I’ve only ever tested my body fat with the 12point calliper test - which is decent if done regularly for identifying improved body composition 👍

[@tiptoptigger]

Really great video Phillip, thanks again for the content, keep up the good work.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Absolute pleasure as always, Adam 💯 - and thanks ever so much 🙏 Good to see you are getting in plenty of KMs ahead of the spring - hope all good

[@1carusjohn32]

Great set of videos Phil. So there seems to be a big window of uncertainty here in the results, the conditions of the environment and the amount of preloading to any given test, and that's for a well controlled lab test. Some what ironically we all get fixated with that 95% of a number generated in a pain cave on commercial equipment after a stressful day at work. Putting bragging rights aside, and using 'the ftp' number to set zones for work, what do we know about the benefits of training at exactly the aerobic threshold as opposed to training conservatively at say 5 to 10% under it.... or same for any zone training? What is clear here is that overestimating that number is catastrophic for setting training zones as you are never training what you think you are and will be failing dismally.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Thanks ever so much John🙏 - really appreciate you saying that. I massively enjoyed learning about all of this from Adam 💯 And everything you say is correct - I think for some people the 20min test works, but for the rest of us we need to be a little more thoughtful . And on the longer climb or TT is is absolutely a disaster to overestimate . It’s a game changer to learn about what we are trying to find physiologically. For me personally I’ll continue to use the 20min FTP test and then 2 days later ride the 30min ramp: 10mins starting 10w below the ftp into 10mins at ftp into 10mins at 10w above the ftp. And then you can gauge the sensations - eg if your heart rate and breathing is elevated but stable (and you feel able to clear the lactate) for the first 10mins - then this is a sign you are just below your anaerobic threshold . But as the power increases - if you find these markers are rising slowly and consistently then you are likely just above. So your actual anaerobic threshold will lie somewhere in the middle of the 2 powers. And for sure if the number is more conservative I’d use this. Alternatively once warmed up, ride your ftp from the 20min test for 30-40mins fans see if you can hold the power for at least 30mins with elevated and stable sensations.

[@n22pdf]

Awesome info Phil very interesting results.. 🚴👏

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Cheers Pete 🙏 - really happy you found this useful 👍

[@abbekraus0101]

I love it how you always take of your mask to speak to the camera…. 😂

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

😅 - not the best in the lab ! But glad you enjoyed !!

[@daverostron]

This is a great video Phil. I guess power meter accuracy plays a massive part and to a lesser extent bike fit etc. That said, how many people go with the larger number (for vanity reasons etc) and are training ineffectively. These videos are great. Thanks for sharing

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Cheers Dave - thats massively appreciated 🙏. The lab used a bike that is regularly calibrated and accurate to 0.5%. But I also ran my Assioma Duo Pedals (with full Zero offset) - which under read by about 10-12 watts! During the 30min ramp (10mins at 265W into 10mins at 275W into 10mins at 285W) the average on the lab bike was 275W vs 262 on my Assiomas - which is something I will allow for when out on the road. The WattBike I have found also reads about 5-10W higher than the Assiomas 👍

[@daverostron]

@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy fantastic, as long as you know the offset you have to apply on your own power meter then you can compare apples with apples so to speak. After watching your vid I'm going to do a full hour to see what I can actually hold... I'm not sure my ego is going to like it 😃 that said its better to know what you should be riding to so that training is as effective as possible. Thanks again for this Phil, great content !!

[@simonnaylor9695]

Great video Phil, and Adam. Very interesting, thanks for sharing your experiences.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Thanks ever so much Simon 🙏 - and indeed I’m very grateful to Adam for sharing his vast knowledge . Super pleased this was helpful, it’s been amazing for me to learn from Adam 💯

[@tonystrange7224]

Good evening Phill. Really interesting video this one Phill, extremely informative and I really got a lot out of this one. I've never liked the way Zwift build you up to the actual 20 minute FTP. I always feel spent before I begin the actual test. I now tend to listen to my body knowing I can ride comfortably at around 200 watts, just under my FTP. Yet on a long climb, around an hour, I seem to be able to hold an higher amount of watts around 225 watts. So I'm guessing there is a lot of psychology going on in my head as I'm not sure I could hold 225watts on a flat course.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Hi Tony - and thinking of you and Maria 🇺🇦and wishing for sanity and peace to return to Ukraine 💯 Super pleased that this resonates - and to your point this is the key this I learned from the lab test in August and this one in Feb - its the listening to your body and getting a good feel for the sensations at threshold that count. And knowing that heart rate and breathing are elevated - but stable for 30-40mins (plus able clear lactate) is very powerful . I also find that on a steady low incline climb my power is a tad higher. But on a steeper one, my cadence isn’t fast enough - so I fall a bit below 👍

[@solsukut3962]

90% much closer for me too. In Feb I went from 205 to 215 based on ramp. I couldn't even finish my repeats. 6 weeks later Ive set FTP back to 205 & getting good results

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Pleased to hear this resonates, Sol 🙏 - and to your point, the quality of the training is so much better when we calculate this threshold accurately 💯 Best of luck with your training and progression 🍀

[@solsukut3962]

@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy I shared this video on twitter. for us STEM "athletes" we can really nerd out on the science of exercise. God bless & be safe out there

[@cfau6290]

To be the ultimate guinea pig for sport scientist you should also do a critical power test in future (peak power output, 3min effort, 12 minute effort) :)

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Thanks ever so much C Fau 🙏 - and as it happens I’m going to work with Adam to show a Critical Power test we can all use at home 👍

[@cfau6290]

@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy Great! Im looking forward to your comparison of the cp test to the other test protocols you performed! I am doing cp tests on a regular basis to evaluate and track fitness, i lile it because you can get a picture of your fitness also for shorter efforts

[@stueyd]

Brilliant video. Something learned here that I knew was true for was me. Only cycling on Zwift about six months. There is no way do I have the stamina to last one hour at t a power from a ramp test throws out as FTP. I suppose muscle endurance, ligament & tendon capacity and supporting muscles all get a hammering in longer rides that takes much longer to adapt than a 20 balls to the wall effort

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Cheers Stuart 🙏 - so pleased this was helpful 💯. I’ve learned a lot from Adam too - in particular about the need to find the elevated but steady state HR and controlled breathing . Adam was also clear that for most people the anaerobic threshold is a power where this steady state lasts for 30-40mins . And definately with more training your ability to ride longer at your threshold will improve 👍💯

[@bnfrl2010]

Awesome information

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Thanks ever so much Steve - really pleased you found this interesting 💯. It’s been a real eye opener for me, understanding what we are trying to find with the Threshold - and what are the key sensations without access to a lab 👍

[@bnfrl2010]

@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy your information always helpful to me. It help motivate me to that massive effort of 1000KM + Everest in one weekend. Re Watch most of your videos during my effort. It dull the pain 😂😂😂. I have a lot of respect for what you do for us. Keep up the good work and thanks again 🙏🙏🙏

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

@@bnfrl2010 your ability to hit these big big rides is literally awe inspiring, Steve 💯✊ - don’t know how you deal with the discomfort of that amount of time in the bike 💪

[@bnfrl2010]

@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy I have many motivations but nevertheless it is painful . But I feel it’s worth it. Part of that rides are for a school here in Kenya. So all my colleagues will do a collection so we can by the school a school year supply of pen paper and pencils. And I will donate 95 percent of my clothes to them. Since I am practically a kids size😂😂😂

[@bnfrl2010]

@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy and following genuine person helps me. Thanks Phil

[@pirminborer625]

I just take my best 45min average climb power for ftp. This gives me 30W lower than on 20min test. Must have a good anaerobic system.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

That’s a great strategy Pirmin 💯 - and in effect is what I’ve been doing since this lab test last year. It’s much more helpful to help pace longer climbs realistically 👍

[@nickbrownbill3413]

Great content Phill! I'm always up for any criticism of the 20 minute test mostly because I'm crap at them 😂 but then when you subscribe to the Piglet "just race loads" training plan it doesn't really matter. But seriously, great to see thorough, coherent discussion of a very tricky subject!

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Cheers Nick 🤣 - and the Piglet approved school of just race 8x per week minimum is indeed very effective! Oddly enough it was him who got me connected with Oxford and Dave and Adam . Really appreciate you saying that - coz it was a complex subject to edit 😅

[@charlesgraham-dixon2637]

Enjoyed that Phil, really fascinating. Given the fact a degree of estimation is involved, I’ve always suspected most FTP tests aren’t wholly accurate. The difficulty is finding an accurate test that is A) easily available to most people and B) not mental torture. For me even a 20 minute test is mentally challenging. While I can often hold 290-310w on a 20 minute climb, the thought of doing it in a test situation is much more daunting for psychological reasons. I think many of us, me included, place too much emphasis on our FTP test numbers and due to them being too high, burn ourselves out. Charlie

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Thanks ever so much Charlie 🙏 - thats super kind of you 💯 I shared the same frustrations, hence I’ve really enjoyed getting to understand the physiology we are testing for at Oxford. In the future when I test my FTP, I calculate the number, and then the day or so after, run the 30min ramp test riding 10W below my FTP, at my FTP and 10W above, in order to fund where the elevated by steady/controlled heart rate, breathing and lactate sensations lie . And for sure I started to progress faster after a lab test in late August last year - which set me a lower anaerobic threshold, which I tried to stay below on the longer climbs 👍

[@KOMHuntTV]

13:15 New Brand Deal? 👏👑

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Fred Perry is literally knocking my door down 🤣

[@KOMHuntTV]

@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy #dontholdback 👍😂

[@radoslawmroz9729]

Very interesting topping Phil, 100% agree that results of the 20 minute test is a little bit to high. Great video 💪💪🚵‍♂️🚵‍♂️🚵‍♂️

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

My pleasure Radolslaw 💯 - and super pleased to hear this resonates. I’d always had frustrations when trying to climb for extended periods at my FTP - so this kind of knowledge is super helpful to me personally 👍. Great to see you making such good progress yourself 💯

[@Michaelholds7769]

I’ve thought about the Zwift vs pro test for a long time. This has been one of the best videos on FTP I’ve seen. Any chance of doing a Garmin cycling VO2 max vs pro test? One of my other curiosities.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Thanks ever so much Michael 🙏- that’s very kind of you to say so! The concept of what this ftp threshold means when actually trying to ride to it has been subject to a lot of confusion - and it took an expert like Adam to really unlock it for me. I don’t have a Garmin - so can’t do that. But one thing you could do is ride the ramp test starting at 150W increasing power by 25W every 3 mins until exhaustion - and see where your VO2 max power lies on that test. The issue is that the test (and how short the ramps are) will impact on the power you fail at. So in the previous video for my VO2 max test I got 2mins into 350W using this test - but will typically make it through the 400W segment using Zwift’s test where the power increases every 60sec 👍

[@JeuneCyclisteDynamique]

FTP can't BE too high or or too low, it is just a metric. It can be SET too high or too low, obviously.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Indeed - it’s just a metric, Jeune - but many people (me included) tend to overstate where this physiological threshold lies - due to a propensity for the 20min test to overstate it. And on the long TTs or climbs - we then wander why we struggle to hold this power 👍

[@derx6666]

Epic video Phil. I've done 2 labtests now, and it's exactly the same for me. The 20min "ftp" test just doesn't work, as it gives a number that is too high. I've tended to start to listen to my body during hard intervals, and correct the required power to what I feel I'm able to sustain (just). We all tend to fixate on a high FTP number, as that's something we can compare to each other, and more is better right 😜But in the end, if you use it to derive your training zones, you shoot yourself in the foot, and in fact probably make the training too hard, and unsustainable, causing more damage that you do good.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Thanks ever so much Marco 🙏 - and I couldn’t agree more 💯 I used to keep being disappointed by blowing 15mins into a climb at my FTP. But knock 10-15W off and I could keep going for good time. Best to listen to the body’s sensations - faster for longer 👌. And for sure I progressed faster at tempo and threshold by taking this more conservative approach. Oddly enough at the upper end for VO2 max - I tend to prefer going harder than the bottom half of zone 5 from the standard 20min test. But keep the intervals to 60-180-secs typically.

[@jonathanweatherill1029]

Great video Phil. So assume I've got my ballpark figure from the 20min test would you say it would be betterto ear on the side of caution and train slightly below that number especially for workouts where threshold development is the goal? Sweetspot looks like it could be the ideal place to focus these efforts? I'm training for long distances so long sub threshold efforts is what I'll be primarily working on. Vo2max seems easier to estimate if your in the correct zone.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Thanks ever so much Jonathan 🙏. What I’m going to do in the future is test my FTP using the same 20min test. And then 2 days later ride the 30min ramp: 10mins starting 10w below the ftp into 10mins at ftp into 10mins at 10w above the ftp. And then you can gauge the sensations - eg if your heart rate and breathing is elevated but stable (and you feel able to clear the lactate) for the first 10mins - then this is a sign you are just below your anaerobic threshold . But as the power increases - if you find these markers are rising slowly and consistently then you are likely just above. So your actual anaerobic threshold will lie somewhere in the middle of the 2 powers. And for sure if the number is more conservative I’d use this. Alternatively once warmed up, ride your ftp from the 20min test for 30-40mins fans see if you can hold the power for at least 30mins with elevated and stable sensations. For VO2 I was advised in a previous lab test to train closer to the top end of my VO2Max - so I tend to target 350W or more for 60-90secs.

[@jonathanweatherill1029]

@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy thanks for the reply again phil. I plan on doing the 20min test on Tuesday so may use the same protocol as you 2 days later to gain a better understanding of the numbers. 30+minutes at the new ftp would probably be too much of a stretch for me in current condition(suppose proves the point of overestimated ftp)but another session to keep in mind. 👍

[@solsukut3962]

My take away was LT2 {FTP)s a hardline bio tipping. Once above it, even by 5W you're not truly training FTP anymore & are in a 15-20min death spiral, but probably not getting much VO2 training effect either. So imo under estimating your FTP by 5-10w when doing FTP reps is better. When you do VO2 reps where it's 3-5min to exhausted there is no doubt you're "in VO2" so if you do them hard even if you underestimate your FTP by 5w, it's irrelevant when in VO2 or anaerobic power zone. Another way to look at it is at 250w FTP, 10w is 4% difference. But at 500w short bursts is only 2%

[@GoustiFruit]

What's sure is that I need to lower my target power "based on FTP" by 20W when training indoors vs outdoors.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Thanks Gousti 🙏 - and I do believe there can be a significant difference. It’s the ability to sustain a consistent cadence indoors vs it being cooler outside - different scores 💯

[@ds6914]

Is your ftp too high? A question for Tadej PogaCAR

[@htukmumfie]

i just have one question....were you cooled appropriately with fans in the lab? your rides collectively over the last year run true for an ftp close to 290 if you ask me. you may have spent energy overheating in the lab.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Hi Paul - yes you are correct in the lab for the tests there were no fans, because they distort the gas readings. And for sure on a good day outdoors or indoors I can ride an hour at 270-280W, but this is in part because I have a high ability to tolerate the rising lactate - and the threshold is more about finding the steady state. Also ideally the second 30min ramp test would have been on fresh legs. And Adam reckoned these 2 factors would have cost me 5W or so. Not perfect - but for sure when I’ve tested at 290-296W FTP it’s caused me a lot of problems trying to ride to it

[@adamgisherwood]

It's a very good point and one that's going to come into play with any lab testing that utilising indirect calorimetry (ie exhaled gas analysis) - the turbines used in the mask are super sensitive so we can't have the fans on as otherwise the oscillating air pressures affect the readings. We did have the temperature down at 14-15 degrees to help compensate and whilst you may lose some watts at threshold though minor overheating, this would equally be the case for a ride in hot weather/up a steep climb where airflow drops with slow speed. So you do have to have a caveat applied to any threshold power figure in that you can only confidently apply it to the conditions under which it was determined. Though of course you can make a good guess as to how it would be affected by being in a hotter/colder/drier/more humid/faster/slower airflow/etc environment, through intuition plus trial and error!

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

@@adamgisherwood cheers Adam 🙏 - really appreciate the extra insight here 💯. Looking forward to our next experiment 👍

[@lechprotean]

Guilty as charged - I tend to optimistically set my FTP a little higher than it actually is and as a result overtrained on a few occasions with poor results overall. I'm trying the other approach this winter - taking it relative easy so that the body can properly recover between workouts

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

😅 Tony - that was me too until my first lab test back in August last year! I’m pretty focussed on min 2 full rest days and only do 1 hard VO2 Max session per week and sometimes a Zwift race. Harder to recover as you get older for sure. Hope your new strategy works well for you! 👍

[@ccamire]

Great work again. When i review strava data for my friends, i noticed they rarely achieve their FTP for one hour. So their FTP is too high. Thanks for validating what i have been thinking for so long. Your review will help me climb hills better in Spain. Question. Is the threshold influenced by how much carbs you consumed? Since i am more low carbs, i have been feeling a lactate threshold at a higher level but is that a placebo effect or more training. Thanks

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Always massively appreciated your support, ccamire🙏. And glad this resonates 💯 In terms of the carbs, I would say that even when I train early in the morning, fasted, I’ll have eaten plenty of carbs the day before, and as a result my glycogen stores will be full. My data shows that the body is using carbs for fuel (in addition to fat) even at low intensity. But when I was riding at 265W, the data showed that I was using 220g of carbs per hour ! Most cyclists under fuel (me included) - so there is a very good chance that low carb could be impacting your ability to sustain and / or increase your threshold👍

[@EJGilb]

Great content, I do wonder how much impact the bike fit is having here. This fits with my n=1. I use 92% of 20 minute power because of my Sprint physiology and large anaerobic work capacity (W prime of ~25Kj). Interesting to know it may be even lower.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Thanks ever so much 🙏 - I took a tape measure to replicate many of the measurements from my bike, but inevitably the one in the lab was not a perfect replica. But I felt comfortable during the lab tests - and the measures of blood lactate and gas exhaled won’t be sensitivity to it. Agreed - because I have a good VO2 Max engine I think this is why my 20min test overstates my Threshold - and will be the same for you as a sprinter 💯

[@chrisplatt7391]

Really great video Phill. Can relate to the points on the feeling that your FTP is possibly set too high and suffering training fails on the back of it! Also, interesting to consider the difference between power when testing FTP indoor vs outdoor. I’ve read previously that outdoor FTP could possibly be 20 watts up on indoor… All interesting when thinking about building a good and sensible plan to achieve those gains and not burn out! (which I’ve done to myself recently!! 😳). Hope you’re keeping well and keep this great, massively useful and easy to consume content coming! 😁👍🏻 Chris

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Thanks ever so much Chris - I hugely appreciate you saying all of that🙏. We’re trying to fit a lot into each video - to save people having to watch 2 or 3 and piece them together - so it’s amazing to hear this is easy to digest 🙏. I think the for some people like me the indoor FTP can be helped by keeping a consistent high cadence - which is rarely easy to do outdoors unless you have a nice 6-8km climb with 5-8% gradient - but against that the body temp is lower outside and in the right conditions it can feel easier once you hit your rhythm. And oddly enough tonight’s video shows the kind of training I’m doing to build to the Majorca 312 - it’s a bigger week than usual (11hours including gym) - but normally I train about 7hours per this time of year - and all based on the data from the lab test 🧪👌

[@bnfrl2010]

Awesome

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Cheers Steve 🙏

[@marcofabiano8672]

Interesting stuff Phil, I have still a question. I have done an FTP test in a lab. I have added some Watt (+6) to the FTP in Zwift thinking that this will stimulate more and increase FTP over time, is my though right?

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Thanks ever so much Marco 🙏 - I think that it’s good to train your VO2 Max at the top end. But if you want to get the right adaptions for endurance (at or below aerobic threshold) or adaptions for sweet spot / threshold (at or below anaerobic threshold) - I’d train train these at the physiological levels as proven in the lab 👍

[@donwinston]

It takes me at least 10 minutes of hard riding just to get revved up enough to suck in enough air to go all out. Otherwise I feel like I'm going to suffocate which is a terrible feeling. I hate it.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Cheers Donald - I too find that I need to ramp a bit into higher power before going for any intensity - or ride at low tempo for 30mins 👍

[@crankgreenwatts]

As always super interesting Phil and am loving the self-inflected pain effort for our enjoyment 🥵😍 May I ask whether your HR was similar in all tests ? How quick after each test did your HR return back to normal state ? Loving these videos and really nice work Phil 💯👌

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

My pleasure to share these, Phil 💯 - and thanks ever so much for your super kind encouragement and support 🙏 On the VO2 Max Ramp in the lab my HR rose throughout to a peak of 182, and then quickly dropped back after I capitulated. On the 30min ramp (3x10mins) in the lab - it was steady at 265W (about 162-165bpm) and then continued to rise once I hit 275. For the 20min max on the WattBike - it rose consistently from 122 to 175 - but was 173 for the final 5 mins (buy had x2 fans on - vs non in the lab, because still air was needed to avoid the gas data being distorted). It took me 4 mins soft pedalling to get back to 122 after the test 👍

[@James-zu1ij]

I had my FTP derived from a 20 minute effort at 302, But I set my FTP @ 290. I base it on my ability to breath and perceived drain on resources. I imagine doing this for an hour or more. Some days are better than others.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Cheers James - what you say really resonates with me personally, for sure it will vary from day to day - and an hour is the max. Adam reckons that most people can ride at their true anaerobic threshold for upto 45mins 👍

[@joelhenderson3723]

How much does it actually matter if your ftp is overestimated? It sounds like true ftp should be substantially below the anaerobic threshold anyway, which can only be maintained 20-40 minutes as oposed to 1 hr, according to the lab.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

I think it makes a material difference if it’s overstated and you are intending to ride at or around threshold for a long climb or TT - because by definition if physically your actual anaerobic threshold is lower than your FTP, then you will be eating into your W-Prime (anaerobic energy reserves) and have limited time at this level (depending on how far above your actual anaerobic threshold you actually are). For some people FTP will be the same as their anaerobic threshold (especially if very well trained and fit) - and for may others it is overstated due to the propensity of the test with95% to overstate 👍

[@justincooper9683]

Total agree with the explained science but your always going to be able to put out more power on your Wattbike at home as you ride on it every day. Instead of riding on a bike you never have been on before with a little bit of a different set up that your not used to. Did you take any measurements of your normal position and move it over?

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Thanks ever so much Justin 🙏 - thats much appreciated. I spent a fair bit of time replicating my bike set up - and it felt pretty comfortable. But to your point - not 100% perfect. But from the perspective of both the 3min ramp test and the 30min threshold ramp, I felt comfortable, and able to get the power down fine - so the gas and lactate measurements would have been fair 👍

[@justincooper9683]

@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy awesome yeah must be nice knowing your numbers down to a T. Keep up the awesome videos 💪🏻

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

@@justincooper9683 cheers 🙏 a will do

[@harrie974]

Your measuring with 2 different powermeters. Even if they both have an accuracy of + or - 2% than you can already have these differences. Besides that, the position on both bikes is completely different. You’re probably way more efficient on your own bike than on a lab bike, ‘cause that position looked very uncomfortable.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Cheers Harrie. The lab bike was comfortable and set up to my geometry - not perfect but close (a bit more upright than I’d want ). Also the lab bike is as precise as it gets and is regularly calibrated and accurate to 0.5%. But in the lab I also ran my Assioma Duo Pedals (with full Zero offset) - which under read by about 10-12 watts! During the 30min ramp (10mins at 265W into 10mins at 275W into 10mins at 285W) the average on the lab bike was 275W vs 262 on my Assiomas - which is something I will allow for when out on the road. The WattBike I have found also reads about 5-10W higher than the Assiomas. So not perfect - but certainly enough to demonstrate the need to focus on the sensations in order to find the anaerobic threshold - ie elevated but stable HR, controlled breathing and ability to clear lactate - sustained for 30-40mins. 👍

[@occyman]

Use Xert and see if you get different results

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Cheers occyman 🙏 - a number of people have recommended Xert, and once I’ve moved flat, I will look into it. 👍

[@cypriano8763]

one has to wonder how much ftp varies thru the year. if you are a regular trainer.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Agreed Cypriano - the Anaerobic Threshold / FTP is very much a dynamic measure - and will ebb and flow with training volume, intensity and general well being

[@linesided]

My ftp was 308 8 years ago, yeah I can accept it's "only" 295 now lol

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

🤣 yep - that’s a pretty rock solid anaerobic threshold to maintain over nearly a decade !

[@ashleyhouse9690]

Totally agree with your conclusions but I would actually go further than that and assert that ALL FTP testing is a complete waste of time and here's why. Let's assume that the FTP test you have just done is bang-on. That is obviously just a snapshot in time depending on your current state of fatigue both physically and mentally. Then you use that number to set your training zones and start doing arbitrary workouts based on that number. However, how successful any particular workout is will also depend on how fatigued you are at that particular time. Because of that you don't know if the workout you have chosen is actually contributing anything to your fitness either. It may well just be contributing more fatigue and adversely affect subsequent workouts too. As you have personally observed Phil, anyone who trains seriously and rides consistently should pretty much know what sort of power level they can hold for a significant time be it a time trial, a race on Zwift or climbing an Alp. Conversely, in addition to that for the majority of our riding time we shouldn't be riding at anywhere near that number, especially if you subscribe to a polarised training model so that makes it immaterial anyway. Also the FTP number doesn't just keep going up linearly. As you get fitter it starts to level off and then what does one do when your latest FTP test actually goes down? Most people would just put it down to fatigue and over-training maybe and carry on using the previous number. I love seeing the power numbers when I am training but I also feel that a heart rate monitor and even RPE should also be used to more accurately assess what I am actually experiencing. Even though I have done Zwift 20 minute and ramp tests in the past, I have also come to the conclusion that the number I end up with is not one that I can reliably train to with any confidence of completing say a high-intensity interval workout.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Thanks ever so much Ashley 🙏 - really appreciate you taking time to respond 👍 And in effect when out on the longer climbs, I had got frustrated with trying to target an FTP derived threshold power on demand - and to your point ended up riding as much on the sensations (elevated but stable HR, controlled breathing and no material build up of lactate in the legs) - and was faster as a result. Adam also made the point (not in the vid) that with fatigue the threshold reduces . But I do still see value in the FTP provided it’s then backed up with a bit more thought and care: What I’m going to do in the future is test my FTP using the same 20min test. And then 2 days later ride the 30min ramp: 10mins starting 10w below the ftp into 10mins at ftp into 10mins at 10w above the ftp. And then gauge the sensations - eg if my heart rate and breathing is elevated but stable (and I feel able to clear the lactate) for the first 10mins - then this is a sign I’m just below my anaerobic threshold . But as the power increases - if I find these markers are rising slowly and consistently then you are likely I’m just above. So your my actual (fresh) anaerobic threshold will lie somewhere in the middle of the 2 powers. Or just ride for 30-40mins at the new number and make sure the sensations are elevated and stable LoL ! 👍

[@ashleyhouse9690]

@@BikeRacingWithoutMercy Sounds sensible Phill, I like your pragmatic approach to cycling backed up by the science which as we know is constantly developing. I appreciate the massive amount of effort that you put into the videos and passing on your experiences and knowledge. I just wish I had half your energy!! 👍👍👍

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

@@ashleyhouse9690 Cheers Ashley - thats very kind of you to say so 🙏 - and for sure a lot of work to film and edit, but love the process, of putting these together, and makes a big difference to get such amazing encouragement 👍

[@krystalin555]

Interesting video. But why do you put on your mask when you take it off to talk. Just keep it on or take it completely off.

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Cheers Krystian🙏 No rhyme nor reason !

[@saracen888]

Much prefer a ramp test

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

Cheers Saracen - and who doesn’t love a good ramp! 💪. For me it does overstate my threshold though - coz I’m strong on the VO2 Max

[@weightdownhealthup9895]

Phil what do you score on a the zwift ramp test?

[@BikeRacingWithoutMercy]

@@weightdownhealthup9895 hi Chris - I tend to just about scrape through the 400W segment (on the Zwift one, with power increasing every 1min) - so end up around 300W for the FTP - which is overstated. And this is because my decent VO2max engine really does start to flatter the result - for me personally

[@weightdownhealthup9895]

Appears like a similar % over calculation again. If they took 68% (check the maths) ie 7% less than the 75% it brings you right on that 272. I wonder if zwift will put a little more research into the % as its a key part of their set-up.