Are Chainless Digital Drive Bicycles The Future of Cycling?

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0:00 - Intro
1:46 - Advantages of Digital Drive
4:25 - Disadvantages of Digital Drive
6:50 - Digital Drive eBikes
9:02 - Digital Drive Efficiency Analysis
11:06 - Improving the Efficiency of Human Bodies
11:37 - More Possibilities for Digital Drive
12:48 - Summary

[@Cyclingabout]

I might be wrong... but I think this is the FIRST video explaining digital drive bicycles on KZbin!! How cool is that?! 😎

[@freshasadaisy4782]

Viral 🤞

[@paulbizard3493]

A bit more than pretty cool. But the power efficiency of the digital drive is not cool at all...

[@Youtube_Stole_My_Handle_Too]

​@@paulbizard3493 True. It's hard to achieve as much as 70% efficiency, but this doesn't matter. On the flat, the needed power output is low anyways, and on hilly terrain, an electric powertrain will recharge and give back 70% of the energy while with a mechanical drivetrain the energy will go to waste. With an energy bank of a couple of kWh, it should be the better choice for most trips.

[@etherealicer]

Thanks, I was curious about this. One point you have shown but IMO not put enough emphasis on. With this you can easily divide power output between multiple wheels (especially interesting for 3+ wheeled vehicles). You can also easily power a steered wheel (I presume that is what gives the cargo bike around 9.30 that amazing maneuverability). Keep up the good work

[@bethsaytomvarughese8839]

Electrom Light Electric Vehicle must have been a part of this video. There is a KZbin channel on how that guy creates and the every improvements he makes.

[@AdrianBoyko]

I need to point out that not everything that involves electricity is “digital”. This is an ELECTRIC drivetrain.

[@biggreenblob]

I was screaming internally the entire time. "Digital"means of or relating to numerical digits or fingers. It has nothing to do with methods of power generation.

[@yerald_a]

& this is objectively analog right? Unless it’s just a computer recording your break intensity & directing an equivalent level of power from the battery, with no direct, variable, connection between pedals & engine.

[@computhenics]

Right. I thought who came up with calling this "digital". There's nothing digital about it. Whoever thought to call it digital needs to learn its meaning.

[@HughCStevenson1]

Yes this is a series hybrid drive. The electronic control is digitally implemented but that is not essential to the concept. An annoying name.

[@AWriterWandering]

@@yerald_a from the description there is definitely a computer involved. The pedals are just a dynamo for charging up the battery.

[@vne5195]

What a great concept~ You can get double the cardio for half the distance traveled!

[@markifi]

almost as good as an indoor excercise bike!

[@cheeseisgud7311]

@@Padlock_Steve you missed the joke so badly it's not even funny

[@robertcowher]

​@@Padlock_Steve It's genuinely dangerous to use bikes for travel here. I've had two different cyclists die close to places I've lived because they got hit by cars. Bikes in the U.S(at least in the south) are something you take to trails or parks.

[@Gianfranco_69]

What i thought....cannot be efficient or we would be all using it already

[@Snuggieman]

@@robertcowher I can’t stress enough that there are LOADS of US cities that heavily emphasize bike use

[@PinkiesBrain]

could be a vice versa promo vid: "now we can use chain drives!- they have almost double the efficency than our regular digital(actually not digital) drives. They are lighter, cheaper, easier to manufacture and everybody can repair them themselves and you will NEVER have to charge them!.... what a time to be alive!!"

[@Ornateluna]

Crazy what we can do with modern technology

[@skaruts]

I'm sold!

[@neobscura]

I LOVE the idea of a bicycle that becomes entirely useless when the motor dies. It's such a neat novelty~

[@MrJoerT]

This is a bit of a flawed stance isn't it? Most parts on a normal bike are required for its operation too. If your chain fails, or your gears fail, your normal bike would be pretty useless as well. There is something to be said for not overcomplicating an elegant design, tho. This digital drive system currently seems to have significant wdisadvantages in comparison to the old system, but both have many single points of failure. One could probably argue that the digital drive one has more redundancies than a normal bike, as it could use motor braking when normal brakes fail. Or that it could run without the generator pedals for a while if there is juice in the battery.

[@neobscura]

@@MrJoerT Sorry I don't subscribe to the idea that adding electronics/electricity to proved design is a step in the right direction. 50 years down the line a regular bike may still be operational, this: without an industry to produce replacement parts, you can kiss it goodbye. I like my gear resilient, not fancy.

[@MrJoerT]

@@neobscura Fair enough. 🙂

[@jasmijnariel]

Just buy an electric motorcycle😂 no stupid pedaling😂

[@neobscura]

@@jasmijnariel What about AN ELECTRIC MOPED. Huh ?! BEST OF WORST WORLDS !

[@flt528]

I'm working on a far better breakthrough in bicycles: A hand crank, attached to a generator, that charges a battery, that powers an electric burner, that boils water to produce steam, that is channeled into a turbine, that spins a generator, that charges up a battery, that powers a light, that shines on a greenhouse, that grows lettuce, that's fed to rabbits, that run on large hamster wheels, that are mounted on the rear rack, and connected to your rear hub via belt drive. There's a basket on the front of the bike that holds the lettuce that you feed to the rabbits as you cruise along. It's not quite as efficient as a chain drive, but you don't have to worry about grease.

[@mitchahbw]

😅🐰💩

[@periodictable118]

efficiency = 10^-10

[@DownhillAllTheWay]

Are you looking fpor sponsorship? I'm all in.

[@Dufalak]

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[@suchi1111]

😂😂😂😂😂

[@jackroutledge352]

Given how inefficient the drivetrain is, you might as well skip the pedals and call it a motorcycle! The pedaling is just to qualify as a pedelec for legal purposes, while the battery and motor does almost all the work.

[@etherealicer]

Remember, that efficiency of 95% for derailleur bikes is fresh out of the workshop. Drive it for a week/month in bad weather and things change. This might not be the right thing for a peak performance bike that gets constant maintenance. But think about a commuter bike, that gets serviced once/twice a year the story is quite different.

[@jackroutledge352]

@@etherealicer True, but I don't think it ever drops below 90%, even for a really dirty chain and worn teeth. 58% efficiency really is terrible, and that's not even accounting for the extra weight. Still, it probably has a niche somewhere. Public electric bikes schemes seems like a good use case

[@etherealicer]

@@jackroutledge352 It also is not accounting for recuperation. I don't know the numbers (and a quick google search I did has not revealed anything). For me, I can see about 10% loss of speed* (though a good part also comes from poor tire pressure) and I do pretty regular maintenance (oiling / pumping up the tires). I do annual oil change on my rohloff speed hub, as it is combined with more thorough maintenance which usually results in 15-20% better speed. * I daily commute for 2.6km in any weather.

[@etherealicer]

@@jackroutledge352 The day I do my maintenance, my bike is usually in better shape than the average commuter bike (But I'm also pushing it going roughly 30km/h top speed, not bad for an 18kg steel mule). No idea how these losses translate to efficiency, but I think there is a quite significant loss. Of course this is very hypothetical and anecdotal. Really curious about actual every day efficiency of bikes.

[@stefhirsch6922]

@@etherealicer the efficiency of an external chain bicycle drivetrain with a high quality chain with the right lubricant, clean, fresh… is a little over 98%. Dirt, wear, poor lubrication… do lower this but in poor conditions typically stay well above 90% for a bicycles’ chain drivetrain. There is no comparison between a digital drive and chain bicycle drivetrain in efficiency. A 58% efficiency rating is abysmal - think 1-1.5 flat tires for something significantly heavier that costs more. A high torque electric motor is heavy due to copper and copper is expensive. Besides a good mechanical system is typically more durable/longer lasting than a digital electronic version. Hand crank car windows will typically perform without any needed maintenance or parts replacement whereas electric windows will be needing multiple maintenance services and a few parts replaced. The simpler option is typically going to be the more durable and efficient. Digital drive bicycles only come close to being a good choice when talking about e-bikes. Will future innovations possibly change that? Yes. That said in 1890 bicycles featured a diamond shaped frame based around hollow tubing, power went to the rear wheel based on a chain, wheels were made with tensioned wire spokes and featured air filled rubber tires. The best bicycles today typically have the same features. Yes some bikes will have a belt drive. So magical game changing innovations can happen but don’t count on them in our lifetimes. Given the poor execution of many “innovations“ that I see in newer bikes I dread actual changes. Frames are commonly out of alignment, poor welds, poorly aligned bearing raced, sloppy tolerances… are typical issues with new bikes. So if a drive system which looses 21x more energy, requires the bicycle to be significantly heavier while being more expensive and most likely harder to work on is something which sounds like an amazing innovation to you and deserving your money than go for it. Yes 21x more energy 98% vs 58% or 2% vs 42% loss.

[@TheAHYZ]

Another benefit: AWD bike with traction control (for commute in slippery snowy conditions). Also front and rear motors may be optimized for different speed/torque.

[@viceroybolt3518]

I think an AWD ebike would be a very very interesting thing to handle obstacles with. You could climb a lot of obstacles with some watts pulling you up by the front wheel!

[@bobsnabby2298]

There is no benefits in such system if you lost 50% of energy into generator and then again in motor.

[@mitchahbw]

cycling on ice / sand perhaps

[@user-pq4by2rq9y]

Combine AWD with traction control and fat tyres and you end up with a bike that can ride in the sand. Aka beach bike.

[@TheAHYZ]

@@bobsnabby2298 50% loss is too much, but 20-30% would be fine, having in mind this has benefit for e-bikes, not traditional ones

[@vv247]

love my shiny chain, the chain sound, the shifting sound. Bring a chain break and you will always get home if the rear derailleur gets wrecked...shorten the chain and make a single gear to ride home. I also still drive a 5 spd car ...love it, its perfect. Whats the cost of fixing a digital drive , whats the reliability? Can I fix it myself out on the road ? Exactly...no thanks.

[@honesttoolreviews6444]

The electrical loss is so much greater here and would be super underpowered compared to the pedaling being done

[@player1GR]

A man of culture

[@John-cy5ui]

This needs to be upvoted.

[@KrustyKlown]

Exactly, as an Engineer .. this idea of absolutely STUPID. But could make some sense for a plug in battery powered bike that would occasionally be pedaled.

[@iancowan3527]

Age! For those not as young... Could utilize, operate, and actually be able to do...

[@dontaskmewhy8734]

@@KrustyKlown ok so this is what i dont get then. Mr engineer, why is it that diesel eletric on trains exist? Ik, i also dont get how it is better than a drivetrain but its like the only way they do it. How come?

[@TheSkystrider]

Omg it would be incredibly hard to drive such a bike with so much energy loss! Imagine how much more pleasant it would be to switch back to a normal bike and immediately discover your strength can propel you so much faster and easier! I can't see why anyone would accept lower energy efficiency. Battery power assist is what people want.

[@tarsvanhoof3766]

Exactly. A clean chain is 98% effective. A great electric motor is 90-ish %, plus the generator at your feet, making a total efficiency of what, 80% in near ideal conditions? No one would want to ride a bike with a chain that only got 80% because it would feel like a brick.

[@wadimek116]

I would accept it if it had 80% efficiency

[@xenomorph9114]

@@tarsvanhoof3766 Especially going uphills with your heavy load won't work on a electric motor but on a chain which your strength matters a lot.

[@Sirmellowman]

@@tarsvanhoof3766 its actually much less efficient than 80%, closer to 60%. would never be adopted in my opinion.

[@boulderbash19700209]

One thing where it excel is on going uphill. The pedaling is generally the same, so you don't have to exert yourself.

[@leehargreaves7473]

This could be a great solution as a regen/Top-up for an E-Bike, but not as a replacement for a direct drive (like a chain or belt) on a regular bicycle. The one big feature missing from E-Bikes is regen braking. This at least would give you the option to add a few watt/Hours to the battery on easy sections of a ride.

[@capoman1]

The slight gain would hardly be worth the cost or added complexity.

[@wjlambert]

I truly appreciate this thorough review of the digital drivetrain for bicycles. What I like most is the fact that when pedaling I would be able to keep the cadence the same regardless of terrain. Also regenerative breaking and recouperation of energy when going downhill is awesome.

[@Alfred-Neuman]

Yeah, no... People like you don't seems to understand that electric motors and generators are far from having a perfect efficiency, you'll basically need to force about 2x more to get the same speed as normal bicycle so I'm not sure that's a very good tradeoff just to get a tiny bit of regenerative braking once in a while...

[@vladlu6362]

​@@Alfred-NeumanElectric motors nowadays, at least ones suitable for this, are over 95% efficient. This goes for both the driving motor and the generator. The motor controller can and usually is over 93% efficient, up to 97% efficient. This is literally more efficient than belt drive. Make it recumbent and enclosed, and it would be way better (faster) than a usual bike, more efficient at speed, and with a small battery, better overall for commutes.

[@dansanger5340]

Because of weight and simplicity, I think a basic pedal assist system is going to be the best choice for a while.

[@pwnmeisterage]

The conventional systems have been refined over many innovations and iterations for many decades. Bikes today are surprisingly more efficient and better than the bikes we rode as kids. But electric-powered and electric-assisted bikes will always appeal to people who lack strength and endurance.

[@commonsense1019]

@@pwnmeisterage very true Also they cost more and r not worth it anymore

[@therookienomore88]

I think you hit the nail on the head. I have made 2 electric bikes from kits and bought one prefab model. I could see this design excelling for those who just city cruise or easy trail riding which could also easily be done with existing chain drive pedal assist. Nevertheless, it’s an interesting concept.

[@1crazypj]

@@pwnmeisterage or are just plain lazy

[@user-pq4by2rq9y]

Personally I would just put the hub motor at the pedals.

[@robcotter5474]

Great video! I built my first digital drive trike in 1986 and dismissed it because it only showed about 50% efficiency. Things haven't changed too much.

[@Y2Kvids]

Capacitor instead of battery?

[@jebise1126]

things did change A LOT. but yes it will never come on a level of a chain drive.

[@Gigachad-mc5qz]

@@jebise1126 you cant know that

[@MrHaggyy]

😕 ~30% increase in efficiency is not to bad considering there is barely any market for this tech.

[@ericblanchard5873]

Sorry, I got through about 5 minutes and lost interest. I could make a more efficient digital drive in my sleep.

[@louisramirez3128]

There was a news clip about a family back in oh say 1980 ~ when I was about 10 years old ~ where the 3 children of the family had to pedal a bicycle that stored the kinetic energy into a battery bank which they could use to watch TV in the evening’s. I remember being happy that I didn’t have to do that.!.!.! Their chore was to pedal for 15 minutes per day, to power the lights and other electrical things in the house. Anything over that could be used as TV Time storage. . .

[@chrisridethatbloodything2044]

6:05 good comparison of hub- and middrive. Thats exactly what I felt when driving both systems. With more variability in gearing of the hubmotor this disadvantage could get minimized.

[@Horstelin]

The use of the word "digital" is 100% wrong in this context. What you mean is electrical.

[@constantinosschinas4503]

He got his millions of views out of us idiots, so who cares.

[@markusketonen2412]

Absolutely greatest way to complicate things unnecessarily, and to hike up the bicycle prices!

[@mmnn7963]

Takes a moron to make something more complicated, takes a genius to make something simple -idk who said it

[@M_Jaggard]

Things often get more expensive and complicated to start with, then when they're at the mass market stage they're cheaper than the alternative - I see this being one of those. If it catches on it will end up being significantly cheaper due to the types of parts and engineering tolerances required vs the current chains and cogs.

[@krane15]

You mean like technology? Can you name any tech that isn't more complicated?

[@call_me_jujo_9493]

@@krane15 But technology is supposted to give us benefits. Like the bulb over the candle. This gives no real advantages. Single speed bike, even not geared specificaly for the rider and conditions is going to be better.

[@markusketonen2412]

@@M_Jaggard You really think bicycle chain has more precise manufacturing tolerances than generator or electric motor..? Or that one day a simple chain will be more expensive to manufacture than an electric motor or generator..?

[@SolarTomSolo]

Fascinating and well made video! Seriously cool....but don't think you slipped that groaner past us at the 4:56 mark. HARRR!!

[@paradiselost9946]

mighty morphin...

[@valdir7426]

in the 60s in France we had veloSolex; the electric bike forefather; it was a very light motorbike with a bike chain and pedal; you had to pedal to start and when the climb was too steep. you could also lift the petrol engine and use it a bike. you could reach around 30 km/h with it. it was extremely popular; specially among popular classes.

[@glossymouse7712]

In Yugoslavia we had the TOMOS line of bikes. It was classified as a bicycle with an auxiliary engine. Technically you could use it as a normal bicycle, but let's be real, no one did that. They had a 49cc engine, an automatic transmission and had a top speed of 45 km/h (legally at least, realistically it could go a good bit quicker). Is that not what most of the e-bike crowd want? They'd be buying these bicycles with the pretense of "getting some exercise" while the damn thing drives you fully under its own power. Why not just get an electric moped if they are about the same price?

[@anielyantra1]

I like the digital drive for a commuter bike. Nothing will ever replace the standard bike for fun or efficiency.

[@ServeraServera0]

I actually doubt the speed that it can get to for commuting in some areas If it is only 25 kph then you won't be able to get into roads

[@Cesar-cm4if]

True! Agreed! Btw, if you're riding you should get an nta helmet like xnito or bern hudson, cpsc helmets aren't really safe

[@lostcarpark]

Great video. I can definitely see this being useful for electric bikes, particularly applications like delivery bikes. The efficiency will need to improve a lot for it to be serious competition to conventional drivetrain.

[@max-zv7sf]

At this point, just get an electric moped to commute, this digital drive system seems just like a legal technicality to get electric cars and light trucks into bike lanes.

[@aerialvation]

Replace the standard bike? Well except the ebike! 😉🤣

[@yvarcot]

Great power rangers jump cut!

[@73caddydaddy93]

I've had an idea for years about putting a system like this in an enclosed recumbent design. you could even out the pedaling intensity so you're not all sweaty commuting to work, plug charge, solar, or use it as a stationary bike to work off lunch and charge system, then pedal as much as you want with a surplus of energy. system like this with a decent battery would afford creature comforts like heat and audio due to reduced range anxiety, allowing people to cycle when they wouldn't due to weather and hilly terrain

[@jusuftheeagle6772]

Any idea how slow a solar panel charges? A night rider could let the bike charge “over day” I guess. Also need more coal energy to make a solar panel than what coal directly delivers. I am looking for a coal fired bicycle. It is the most “green” of all.

[@73caddydaddy93]

@@jusuftheeagle6772 I was just saying it's an available option, not the be all end all

[@therhubarb]

alas, heaters use crazy amounts of power. A small fan heater would take a couple of roided up Lance Armstrongs to power it

[@websnail]

As an example of the different crankpower in different positions of the pedals makes me think about my old biopace setup from the late 80s with oval frontal gear rim. Terribly exhausting.

[@Anonymous-sb9rr]

On a normal bicycle you don't have to push through the dead spots of the crank rotation at all. You can also pedal harder with one foot than the other. Pedal resistance on a chain drive bicycle is infinitely variable at any time without needing settings, you only push when you want to, and if you don't push, you can still keep rotating the pedals.

[@olstar18]

Also you could have a strap on the pedal of your good leg to help the other.

[@gguy156]

This is still an energy-consuming process because you are not fully relaxed during pedal rotation. Digital bicycles could provide a more efficient way to spend your energy rotating pedals. Personally, I think the efficiency could achieve 90-95% with the right digital control system.

[@Anonymous-sb9rr]

@@gguy156 On a digital drivetrain you still have to rotate through the dead spot, so where is the advantage?

[@gguy156]

@@Anonymous-sb9rr You could adjust circuit to charge capacitors/battery when inertia push your bycicle forward. If the current flow is adjusted right you won't feel the difference in applying force. Also some energy of bicycle could be applied to decrease pedal resistance for more smooth pedalling. Like the narrator said, technology is more suitable for electric vehicles with batteries.

[@Anonymous-sb9rr]

@@gguy156 Putting regenerative braking on an electric bicycle that still has a chain, would have the same result.

[@DFX2KX]

I can see this system being more popular on Velomobiles due to the more complicated chain setups those seem to have. There's a recumbant or two that uses it too, but they're made-to-order things.

[@AtomicSource11]

Yes! I was thinking this could be great for recumbent ebikes. They otherwise need *really* long chains - with extra cogs to guide them - and belt drives aren't suitable

[@latinamajor]

I ride a trike and I'm not terribly interested in switching to a drive train that is heavier, less efficient, more expensive and can't be fixed DIY in the field. It might be a good option for people who need an electric assist due to limited mobility or elderly folks but that's about it. I tend to do pretty long rides (50+ miles) and I highly value the capability to fix nearly any mechanical problem roadside. Just knowing that I will be stranded if something goes wrong with my drive system is enough to turn me off from switching to a 'digital drive'.

[@boone7777777777]

This is a great idea, I had the same idea for a drive chain like this for my hybrid motorcycle.

[@Jacoblikesyoutube]

A bike that comes with an integrated upright stand could also have a mode built in where you could charge the battery while peddling in place. Say if you had a commute that was kind of awful you could still pedal it in a session or two during the day, storing your mechanical energy for the next time you ride but not having to get all of your pedaling in at once. This could similarly have the perk of being able to act as a mobile charging station for smaller electronics using this same idea.

[@KaitouKaiju]

You would always need to pedal a lot more than what you get out

[@Ox4C4A]

Interesting concept, however calling it "digital drive" is quite the misnomer - the signal doesn't need to be digital (0/1) here, it can be analog as well. The grand difference is that the power is transferred by electricity, not mechanical movement, therefore the name should reflect that.

[@xe-wf5iv]

It is always analog. You can't drive a motor digitally. The name digital drive makes zero sense. Its just an e-bike that removes the chain.

[@Ox4C4A]

@@xe-wf5iv I disagree - driving a motor via PWM would qualify as running it digitally in my mind, and technically you could PWM the generator side as well. Not a big fan of the naming, since I doubt it will always be PWM though, hence my original comment.

[@AJ-oj5eu]

There is a fair amount of slow speed balance and control that is "felt" through a physical connection between the drive wheel and the crank also. I would like to try riding one of these to feel the difference

[@krane15]

That's the digital part. Establishing that bridge.

[@AJ-oj5eu]

@@MidwestFarmToys Low speed balance. Above about 2 kph I couldn't care less about a non direct link between my feet and the rear wheel, but below this speed you actually rely on forward thrust to keep balance. If you had a unicycle powered like this, it would be unrideable. There is a mechanical relationship with this and bicycles

[@krane15]

@@MidwestFarmToys It not a problem at all. Unless your consider advancements in technology a problem. It is the nature of all thing to evolve or advance unless you're a Luddite and want to remain in the dark ages. This is just another possible step forward in bicycle evolution.

[@miguelmiquel5497]

@@AJ-oj5eu telll us you've never had your feet tied down to your pedals without saying it.

[@AJ-oj5eu]

@@MidwestFarmToys yes I agree, converting mechanical energy into electrical and back to mechanical again, is overly complicating a simple design and to me seems..... excessive. Mid you I'll argue that an automatic transmission is bordering on extravagance too.

[@hkad6252]

This is my dream setup. Super simplistic. Hardly any maintenance. Also regen braking, I bike down a steep hill every morning pressing all that heat into my brakes. I hate that.

[@aaronlarsen7447]

This makes the most since for the recumbent tricycles, where the chain is already too long, or in addition to a hybrid system, with a small combustion engine.

[@bingoberra18]

The best use of this would be a 2wd otherwise nah. What I could accept is a super capacitor that charges at regen and discharges to the hub motor at maybe 100w maximum as a "KERS" variant instead of a full electric bike. would make sense in a city environment with a lot of stop and go. And the super capacitor would be integrated in the frame as it does not need external charging.

[@fastinradfordable]

When can u have it ready?

[@bingoberra18]

@@fastinradfordable Depends what youre willing to pay, R&D and prototypes are costly!

[@theyeetus1428]

A 2WD bike with this technology would be even worse, it would be less efficient, more heavy, and would take twice the effort to pedal because there is twice the number of motors.

[@bingoberra18]

@@theyeetus1428 Yes I know, but other than an extreme case where you actually need 2wd, I dont see a point of this type at all, as a 1wd setup it just doesnt have enough advantage vs standard way. But there is no other solution for 2wd so that is the only viable application.

[@tooltime9260]

This could be adapted to a NORMAL, pedal style bike. There are strong car CAP style jump starters already on the market at 12 volts DC. IF a (front?) hub can be designed to temporarily run on this 12 volt source and the regen, when needed, is applied to the Cap when a brake handle is applied or when a special handlebar lever is variably pulled to charge the Cap, as in downhill coasting, this could actually work. The cap, initially charged (quickly at home in minutes, or by riding with a slow charge being put in so as to not become "harder" to pedal) could be used for start-ups, minor hills, temporarily speeding past traffic or whatever. It would be interesting to see how much juice a Cap box would store for small, intermittent use on a bike, and the box is not heavy. While the bike could not "run" on this, it could be used for special moments when needed. I don't know how much "juice" would be needed for these short bursts of use, heavy or light, BUT, if it even works for 10-30 seconds at variable power, it would be a very fun experiment to explore. Someone with the knowledge to create a basic variable input to the motor is the only real obstacle, just to see if this could work. Fine tuning comes later. Simplicity must be maintained; nothing complicated should be developed. Once things become complicated, it becomes a failure and expensive to the masses. These car jumpers are about $200 or so. If these Cap boxes can jump a car at VERY high amps for about 10 seconds, imagine what it could maybe do at LOW amperage on a bike. This is one experiment I'd REALLY like to see someone do who has the available equipment around to play with. THIS experiment almost look doable. Any takers?

[@TheNewGreenIsBlue]

If you think about, this could allow for front-wheel-drive bikes. Good idea? Bad idea? I don't know but it's certainly interesting to think about.

[@ricardoamendoeira5689]

Most electric scooters are FWD, I don't know if it makes a big difference for commuting as you're never (hopefully) at the limit of traction.

[@sumoneskid]

Weight distribution favours rear wheel drive. Body position while peddling will always put more or most of your weight on the rear wheel, so it really does make the most sense to keep the drive power in the back. Similar but opposite to why the front brake is more effective than the rear. The second disadvantage in a hypothetical front wheel drive bike is if you lay down too much power, you'd lose steering control and could easily lead to the front wheel washing out. Back to the brake comparison, front brake control is a mountain bikers most important skill. Managing that the front brake is capable of the majority of your stopping power when riding downhill, with the risk of locking up the front wheel is an art. Could there be a use case for 2x2 bikes, where both wheels have power? Possibly, but they'd be few and far between. If riding in low traction environments like snow or gravel, there could be someone out there that would benefit from a front wheel that could deliver power. More so with utility bikes or heavier enclosed bikes like in the video. My 2 cents.

[@M_Jaggard]

@@sumoneskid possibly a 2x2 could provide the torque needed at a lower motor weight?

[@BrunodeSouzaLino]

Recumbent bikes with FWD do exist but you are creating more problems than solving them. In those cases you either have to sacrifice turning by having a regular steering on front as well or having a reduced turning radius with rear wheel steering.

[@acobster]

Pretty sure the first bicycle with pedals were front-wheel drive and they changed the design because they weren't as stable.

[@offgrid2010]

I'm old enough to remember when Windows 1st came out and some in the computer club swore they would never use a mouse. I can see where the pedaling would be a lot less efficient but the motor(s) and battery's and adding super capacitors would make for a better ride.

[@AaronSchwarz42]

Enables kinetic energy recovery, energy storage, e-boost or motor assist or pedal assists or torque assist, brake energy, use as a stationary bike for exercise in cold weather, variable pedal resistance, actively tunable, amazing!

[@DarmiGames]

I think having a motor to help you speed up from a stop, or while riding uphill, as well as regenerative breaking are a good idea. But I'd make it a hybrid, so that there are both the chain system as well as the motor and a generator, so you get the efficiency of a chain drive, but some advantages of the digital drive.

[@aaaaaaaard9586]

I heard regenerative drive system is too heavy and expensive to put on a bike. Also it’s not digital!!

[@digitalspecter]

@@aaaaaaaard9586 It's not, electric motor can act as a generator too. My previous e-bike had regenerative brakes.

[@aaaaaaaard9586]

@@digitalspecter It says you need a different type of motor called direct drive motor for regen brake, which is heavier than normal motors. It also adds resistance on pedals, and creates heat when it brakes. All that for around 5% of battery saving.

[@edeledeledel5490]

Those have been around for ages.

[@treron8472]

@@aaaaaaaard9586 a lot of ebikes have direct drive motors, they're cheaper than mid drive. They're a bit heavier but way more reliable and don't require replacing your chain as often. A big benefit of them is when you're using the regen braking is slows you down without wearing out your break pads.

[@K1989L]

I thought this when I saw the emergency closing cranks for water tight doors on ships. I used to work in ship building. You simply rotate a crank and two very large cables transfer the electricity generated to the door motor that closes or opens the door depending on the direction. It essentially is the same thing.

[@K1989L]

I'd also argue that it isn't "digital" it is very analog. Just electric.

[@K1989L]

The gearing is determined by the coiling. So it will be single speed and that's it. No easy way to have gear in this system.

[@bennylloyd-willner9667]

@@K1989L isn't it pretty easy to control speed of an electric motor tho?

[@Awol991]

@@K1989L Actually quite digital for the controller driving the motor. For efficiency a synchronous motor is needed which means digital controller has to generate a variable frequency waveform. The controller has to be aware of current speed and current power requirement.

[@Awol991]

@@K1989L Synchronous motor where the digital controller does all the work. Full time electric cars have no gears. It is all magically done by the digital controller.

[@skylerstevens8887]

Great Video! It's interesting your analysis on digital drive bikes is similar to what I found on Electric vs Hybrid vs Gas cars. The gas cars can reign supreme at very specific speeds based on their transmission and on flat terrain with no stops. Hybrids and Electrics both handle the stops as well as down hill sections wonderfully with regenerative breaking. Hybrids are great as some can offer redundancy not often talked about or utilized well helping with major issues since they can essentially have 2 drive trains. Whereas Electrics only have one to deal with and so can reduce complexity. Though not weight since batteries weigh more than gas.

[@dinocharlie1]

I think the two main problems are efficiency (obviously you addressed this), and everyone's familiarization with chain bikes. If they change the concept to having you control the motor with a hand throttle like a motorcycle, I think it would help because then people could auto-pilot pedaling and focus speed control to their hand, an entirely different limb, eliminating the coordination issues and eliminating the need for fake gears since speed would be controlled independently of pedal speed

[@isaacgraff8288]

I can see the advantages, much like electrical cars, it has the best potential in a city with lots of stop and go for regenerative braking, and a relatively low top speed. The concept is interesting, and I'd love to see where it goes. To an extent, I can see hooking your bike to an external battery.

[@davebing11]

regenerative braking only recovers 5% (10% max) of the braking energy or so due to the inefficient generator that recovers the waste energy

[@ichosolemanuel6048]

could you pedal while driving slow and when the battery is charged a bit drive without pedaling?

[@rogerphelps9939]

That is poppycock.@@davebing11

[@MrMartinSchou]

If you combine it with an ebike with proper motor controls (including torque sensor), I cannot help but wonder how good a front or all wheel wheel drive would be. We saw in rallying that all wheel drive was absolutely the way to go for control in difficult circumstances, so it could make sense for bicycles too. I just don't like the ones that do it currently, because the motors are never properly controlled and just go full torque the moment they're activated.

[@karlInSanDiego]

I actually think a torque sensor is the wrong way to go. Why? Because in many situations you want to be able to modulate your speed. If the only way to slow down is to work less, you cannot build up power for that next hill. And if you don't save up, you will fail to make it up that hill. A hand throttle and optimizing your cadence and output you're willing to put in, could allow you ride with almost as much efficiency and certainty as you currently get with a parallel (traditional) pedalec. I think this video started out with the right concerns, that weight and efficiency losses mean we'll continue to use chains and belts.

[@MrMartinSchou]

@@karlInSanDiego You are absolutely correct. I immediately fell back to my "I hate these on normal bikes" mindset when I started thinking about front wheel drive. I do think they could be quite interesting and possibly advantageous though.

[@stefhirsch6922]

All wheel drive bicycles already exist - and have for decades. Look up christini all wheel drive bicycles. They have more control descending and improved drive traction for climbing. They work. So far the design hasn’t taken off. It doesn’t look like they will anytime soon.

[@bruceedge1649]

Yupp, but kiss it. Pedals drive generator and charge battery. Battery drives motor. 1 gear , like a Tesla. Gears and chain on an ebike are just plain weird. Huge thanks .

[@anthonyiocca5683]

All wheel drive is not needed unless you ride up and down soft sandy beaches. A military combat situation where you need to sprint with a burst of speed would be helpful. I would like to build a all-wheel drive bike just for off road fun…

[@diogenesdevletoglou6190]

This is the way to go, provided they add this system to an ultralight to compensate for the weight, and then pair it carefully with a small Lifepo4 battery together with a buffer pack with ultracapacitors for regeneration. With a super cool software to exploit the infite gear range

[@pctrashtalk2069]

On the shown Cargo Trike the roof of the cargo box could have several solar panels for easy recharge. This could be very useful for a variety of uses.

[@bmccameron7642]

Love the channel. Currently among the most professionally produced content anywhere with well researched detail, stunning visuals and great explanation across the world of cycling. May you continue to enjoy every success.

[@chrisogrady28]

Jesus chill out, it's decent but this is a pretty amateur voice over ontop of stock footage, no need to make it sound like the Interstellar of cycling content

[@bmccameron7642]

@@chrisogrady28 Says the nobody with 134 subs...lol

[@heheyboi1065]

The information seems to be inaccurate.

[@vinny142]

Great idea, and then when your battery runs out you can use you can pedal like crazy to compensate for the huge losses in the system. Just keep using a chain, it's what you need in a bike.

[@davidmowbray4230]

It's already twice as hard to ride an electric bike with a flat battery with a chain without more power loss.

[@skirnir-atf]

And what about AWD bike? Here I see good chance to make pedal drive AWD bike

[@StefanReich]

@@davidmowbray4230 My e-bike has a ratchet mechanism to automatically engage and disengage the motor, so there is basically no additional resistance when pedalling unassisted. Isn't every e-bike like that?

[@davidmowbray4230]

@@StefanReich they're just heavier. Regen brakes would be good for getting some energy back but i'd use a solar panel on the back before pedaling to generate electricity.

[@tarsvanhoof3766]

@@skirnir-atf they used to make electric bikes with the assisting motor in the front wheel, making them essentially awd bikes. They mostly don't exist anymore, because it's not comfortable nor safe to have too much weight in the front wheel, and because a bicycle with a driven front wheel is dangerous. If the front wheel loses grip you almost always fall down, and if it's slippery out a driven front wheel loses grip easily. Nowadays you pretty much only see rear hub motors and middle motors.

[@GerbenWulff]

I really like this idea for city cycling. In some of the major cities it often feels like you are waiting for traffic lights half the time. You just need a three-wheeler bicycle to make it work. Also riding downhill, you could recharge your battery, where now you often just stop pedaling. Outside the cities some people use recumbent bicycles. Those have very long chains, so the difference in efficiency might be a bit smaller. I am currently in the Philippines, where in some cities you see a lot of electric tricycles which they call ebikes. Most of them don't even have pedals. As I am used to cycling, and like the workout, I would be more likely to buy one with pedals. Range anxiety is a thing for me, especially since batteries here lose range very quickly.

[@GerbenWulff]

Some more points I like to note. 1. There is an e-bike named Electrom which is a recumbent design with an electric drive. This bike features a clutch at the pedals and the electric drive, allowing it to switch between a normal electric drive with the electric motor driving the chain and a series electric drive, where you pedal to recharge the battery. Such a clutch allows you to both do regenerative braking, charging using your pedals and using the more efficient traditional bicycle design with chain. Of course, such a design is going to be expensive and heavy. 2. Note that the chain drive electric bicycle design is not the most efficient design. If you want to go for a design that can provide more power, one of the things you can do is move the electromotor to the wheel, to increase efficiency. 3. For a city bike design with regenerative braking, you might want to switch to a design with a capacitor. The downside to a capacitor is the much lower energy density, meaning that you can only use it for accelerating after braking (or maybe something like a 1 km range), but the efficiency is higher, so you would not need to charge your e-bike. Braking provides a lot of power during a short amount of time, something a battery might not be able to handle as well.

[@energ8t]

Thanks for adding the complete pros/cons that so many ignore. Electric transmission (non e-bike), is less efficient and needs a battery and e-bike powered transmission (power delivery) system to really show any promise. But, that is certainly a really cool option. I designed a hybrid bike for an international bike design competition in 2006, so the ideas have been around before the tech was there. I can see a company like Canyon really pushing the future on this front. One important note to add: Adding electronics and batteries inherently make the bikes far less sustainable due to the increased materials/batteries/maintenance. And yes, these are specifically electric, but can incorporate digital control.

[@lafamillecarrington]

It is certainly the first that I've seen. And now I really want to try one; the idea of indoor training which charges a powerwall is just great!

[@MrHaggyy]

😂 add a bike to grid voltage converter and you could paticipate to your electricity consumption.

[@petertroep9085]

What are you going to do cycle 7 hours and produce a kw? Wow you earned yourself 35 cents.

[@helmutzollner5496]

Stunning! A bicycle chain has an efficiency of about 90%. The power efficiency of an electric motor as well as the generator Is about 70%. So you have to push twice as hard to get the same power on the wheel. Admittedly you could add battery storage and use the energy of regenerative breaking to the battery. However an efficient generator, motor and Batteries will weigh in at a substantially higher weight than the traditional drive train. So bicycle frames are made out of light weight materials and then we load them up with heavy clutter. I guess someone might say it is a great idea, but apart from playing with new tech, it doesn't make sense on a pushbike. The economics will probably look better if you add the generator to an electric bike.

[@call_me_jujo_9493]

Dirty chain has about 90% efficiency so right, drivetrain like in the video is not worth it at all.

[@svr5423]

You have your body weight and your payload. Couple of kgs won't matter for many people, unless you want to do a race.

[@charlycbu75]

Bravo

[@foximacentauri7891]

70% is not half of 90%, this statement alone should be reason enough to not take you seriously. The rest is also just guesses, not even educated ones. I’m so tired of people playing experts on things they have watched a single KZbin video on.

[@helmutzollner5496]

@@foximacentauri7891 so nice to be fast checked. If have taken my numbers out of my old electronics reference book. Please share YOUR sources and explain how a bicycle chain manages 30% energy loss. Then we can see who can be taken seriously.

[@motaparatu]

I could totally see this style of drive train replacing chain drives on E-bikes. You could even ad a sturdy kickstand and convert it to an exercise bike to charge the battery.

[@jonatanwestholm]

When I was commuting daily by bike as a student, my yearly maintenance costs were less than 150 euros (most of that was a yearly service by a mechanic). That is insanely cheap for something that I used every day, rain or snow. There is a great strength in the simplicity of the chain drivetrain: it makes it easy to learn how to service it, and straightforward to produce spare parts, you can even learn to do it yourself. Compare that to the nightmare of modern car maintenance, where even software errors can (at least temporarily) brick your car.

[@tooltime9260]

Well said! Finally, someone with an active brain.

[@markwng]

Been working for diesel trains for over 100 years

[@jhuc2869]

Because there’s no mechanical drivetrain that can handle the loads involved. Simplicity always wins.

[@markwng]

And weight isn't an issue.

[@infour44]

Wonder what it would ‘feel’ like as riders get a lot of info via pedals,drivetrains tyres etc. Sound too.

[@lukewalker1051]

That is only part of the problem.

[@MrLWFred]

This is absolutely awesome. why havent we got more of these out there. write your congressman now!

[@dixonkuntz6909]

The solar panel trailer on a ebike makes the most sense. Mini wind generators that wouldn't slow you down and possibly create boost seem feasible. 14:19

[@DavorJardas]

This is the first such a comprehensive video on digital drives, congrats. Think there is a great future in it, with further tech advancements. One special drive I have recently seen is "Revonte" - a hybrid, stepless automated drive and gearshift - it works like Toyota Prius - and imho it will be a killer drive until digital drives fully mature, with same "software defined platform" benefits as with the digital drive. Can't wait until those bikes hit the production!

[@joeshmoe7967]

Why not just ride a quality 'normal' bike. Adding 'digital' really does nothing but add complexity that is just not needed.

[@jims6498]

There twitter is abandandonded in 2019 and there recent blogging is not persuasive.... very delayed even channel here is 2021 arguing "artnered with EAV, Lavelle bikes, and Tunturi bikes. "

[@nathanhamers9160]

This will not have "a great future", chains have an efficiency of about 97%. That is insanely high, quite literally nothing compares to it. So it would be really dumb to throw that simple efficiency away

[@fredtatch1572]

Well done video and I agree with your thoughts about not really practical for regular bikes but very likely a great fit for E-bikes. I’m about 9000 miles into riding a BikeE recumbent with the Grin rear wheel 212 ready to roll kit. Wonderful set up but the chain length and maintenance are my biggest challenge, not to mention that I need a 70 tooth front sprocket to peddle the speeds above 20 mph. I want a generator crank!

[@tomas.stesti]

Man! I knew that something was there at 4:56 😀 Thanks for the laugh 😀

[@jonathancrew5811]

As a tech head this is friggen amazing... As someone who loves the simplicity and the ability to maintain a bike at low cost and low knowledge(as in a car takes way more time to effectively maintain a car than to learn how to completely work on a bike) is in-valuable.. This "evolution" just means normal people can no longer work on their bikes. Imagine you have a 1hr by bike commute and your bike breaks down, whatchu gonna go, call roadside geek squad for a bicycle??

[@vladvrinceanu5430]

the idea is simple: take what can work for 200 years and make it work until the next update

[@etherealicer]

That is what people said when others put chains and pedals on their walking bikes😉 In all seriousness. No drive-train lasts that long without maintenance and parts-replacement (unless you don't use it).

[@jedibusiness789]

True, yet anyone that can handle a brush, spray cleaner and lube can do maintenance.

[@etherealicer]

​@@jedibusiness789 The kind of maintenance that is not required in a system like this (well, you still have to maintain your tire pressure). I'm talking about replacing the chain/cassette/derailleur(s)/chain-ring(s)/gear-cables and then adjusting it, so the gears change properly again. There are really only 2 components that will break on an e-bike (from the e-drive, commonly it is actually the chain/derailleur part that breaks). Motor controller and of course your cables/connections. Both are easy to fix, they take very little skill and won't cost much (certainly not more than replacing your chain/derailleur). There is pretty much no need for specialized tools (maybe some torx-bits depending on your model, but that is not more special than a chain-breaker). Longevity and ability to repair is really not a concern. Efficiency is (though it would be really interesting to see a comparison to a bike that has been used for a while and including recuperation).

[@xe-wf5iv]

@@etherealicer If efficiency is important, this dual motor is far away from the solution with over 40% power loss. A normal chain drive bike that has been beat to hell would never lose more than a few percent of efficiency.

[@BhavaSindh]

It is very cool! But aren't you mixing up digital with electrical?

[@Noadvantage246]

“E-bikes” aka electric bikes already exist. That’s a motor and battery + chain and pedals. These bikes are technically also electric driven but the name is taken so… lol. Plus “digital drive” is a good name for it given the chains and gears that normally drive a bike are gone and “digitized” in a sense.

[@Harikusa]

So, best way to look at digital drive bikes is a motorized vehicle and kit it out as that (not goofy 250w engine with tiny battery) so you could use it as normal motorcycle and have an option to extend your range by medaling/regenerative breaks.

[@ericew576]

I’m glad this video covers disadvantages. If we notice improvements in efficacy and weight (in future), perhaps this design would be better. Here’s hoping that happens.

[@MP-zf7kg]

I think the hybrid concept is great; you can control the bike speed independently of your pedaling speed. I could see an athlete commuting to work, really putting in a tough workout, yet his bike is moving at a moderate pace along a busy bike path. And, of course, you could have it where you're pedaling at a moderate, constant pace, while modulating your bike speed according to traffic conditions. I've been a fan of the generator/motor/chainless concept for some time now, and this video does a great job of discussing the pluses and minuses of current technology.

[@MrHaggyy]

Only problem you need to use the energy at somepoint if you generate all the time. Like you need to recharge an e-bike you drain all the time. You also could partially short circuit the motor and dicipate the effort in heat. But that's kind of a waste. Also if everybody drives a view watt extra a day for 30min this adds up to an significant amount of power over a year.

[@ryanokeefe12]

You mean, like gears on a normal chaindriven bike? You've literally described exactly what gears do. You can't have the energy input constantly greater than the energy output (ignoring drivetrain efficiency).. Even if you had super capacitors or a battery to store additional energy, these would eventually reach a state of maximum charge and you'd be back at square one. The use case you've described is already achievable with gearing and the addition of a dynamo light or dragging the brakes.

[@Blox117]

@@MrHaggyy i dont think you can short circuit the motor very long. the energy will go towards heating up the wires. you can short the motor on a resistor though.

[@swancrunch]

@@MrHaggyy i dont's think spending energy is a problem at all. when your battery is full it will just stop charging, and your generator will do nothing. and i seriously doubt there will be a case of "too much energy" ever.

[@swancrunch]

the biggest problem with independent of your feet controls for speed is, weel, it's independence. you'll need a gas crank on your handlebars and to relearn hardwired "pushing pedals make you go brr". which could take a lot of fun out of the cycling experience.

[@marshall2389]

I'm hoping that axial generators and e-bike motors will become available. I believe these can achieve 90-95 percent efficiency, compared to 80 percent or less for the standard radial motor, which would make the all-electric drivetrain signifantly more viable.

[@symmetry08]

Digital Bike will be more popular as tricycle, as in such settings, it will be more canopy-electric vehicle combination that will offer self-extending range with some minor weather protections. In such form, it is a lot cheaper than vehicle and you could be stretching while not over-working at that self-propelling mode.

[@adventurousloner]

I was thinking something similar. This type of drive bike would be best suited for cruisers and adult tricycles.

[@Transit_Biker]

Hub to crank radius/ratio could solve some of these uphill issues, and even be great for higher speeds.

[@TWEAKLET]

you either have speed or you have torque you have to choose one if you dont have multiple gearing to use that or your bike quickly becomes a motorcycle legally

[@benc8386]

Great video! The use case I have always thought this would be best for is an e-bike recumbent because regular recumbents have to have super-long chains to get all the way from the crank back to the back wheel which are kind of annoying. "Digital" bikes will have lots of fancy electronics but really you just need two dials: how much crank resistance you want and how fast you want to go; and something to tell you the range you have left given what you have set those two dials to.

[@leftaroundabout]

Agree, for a recumbent it really would be a big advantage. The aero advantages would compensate for the inefficiency, the power transfer wouldn't be nearly as tricky as a mechanical recumbent (thus the relative weight penalty is less than in the upright case), you could easily add rear suspension which is a big boon for recumbent, and the electric drive makes the startup less daunting.

[@max-zv7sf]

Electom is a company in Canada making recumbent, digital drive e-bikes. The channel Fort9 made a video about it some months ago.

[@Sergio_Loureiro]

@@max-zv7sf I think you mean Electrom.

[@mobbs6426]

There are definitely advantages to this, but I don't think the derailer is going anywhere any time soon, the price and weight difference are just too great a factor. Smartest implementation would be rent-a-bikes, charging in the dock, and effectively being an e-bike with a cycling machine hidden in the pedals alongside a generator. Problem there becomes leaving valuable components for anyone to take

[@JeckNoTree]

6:32 Imagine having lagg on a bike. XD

[@christill]

Really interesting stuff. I have to say I don’t like the idea of it not having that quick engagement you get with a physical connection to the back wheel. People who are very casual won’t notice, but it would undoubtedly bother long time riders a lot if it doesn’t feel like what they’re used to. I’ve seen it already where riders do a few revolutions before a 4-wheel bike van starts to move.

[@Noadvantage246]

I think the way with this would be like Tesla did with cars. Instead of trying to make it “feel” like a traditional bicycle they should fully lean into the advantages of digital drive and embrace the differences.

[@christill]

@@Noadvantage246 Yeah maybe. I try to always be open minded, so we’ll see.

[@Noadvantage246]

@@christill I hope some takes this up I think there’s a lot of potential here. I already got plenty ideas. For example if you had a digital drive bike with an electronic, daul-sided, kickstand; you could create a bike with launch control! The kickstand goes down and you pedal in place building up surge capacitors. Then with something like a thumb throttle you could launch it. The kickstand would retract instantly as the motors spin on full power! This would be hella fun and kinda funny to go from pedaling in place to taking off like a rocket. But it’d also be practical for commuters. You come to a light and can keep you pace a cadence going then take off back to your pre-set commute speed right away.

[@BH4x0r]

well the problem with the 4 wheel bike van you mention is cadence sensing, if it is torque sensing it is instantaneous dependant on controller settings ofcourse

[@troppoandante]

Comprehensively researched and well explained, as always. And I agree with your conclusion: it's not an alternative drive train for unassisted bikes but it will likely displace the mechanical transmission bits on e-bikes.

[@lukewalker1051]

No it won't. You first...lol.

[@joeshmoe7967]

If you had said 'some bikes', you could be correct. Bikes in general? Not a chance. This is a solution looking for a problem. Bicycles when invented and bicycles in 2022, still the most efficient mode of human powered transportation. Why throw that efficiency out the window? This will be super duper niche, and ultimately will be a complete failure.

[@BH4x0r]

@@joeshmoe7967 the way most people ride it it is quite inefficient, most average people pedal 200W and have the middrives in turbo, and Bosch CX peak at around 700-750W infact, not the "250W" European limit that means you got 200W pedal power and 700W assistance so 900W total, if you went to this mode it would be like 820W (200W effort but 40% loss, 120W) and the 700W your consumption wouldn't increase as the power is limited, still a marginal difference in the end. not only that's great but you'll have the ability to fine-tune the feeling of the pedals, your preferred cadence etc in software as you can vary how much power the pedals generate basically, and you've got none of the issues a normal drivetrain would/could have (derailleur adjustment, chain cleaning, chain skipping, or just no changing gears in general) it's like having a cvt without a cvt.

[@theyeetus1428]

@@BH4x0r Yeah and CVTs were a failure too.

[@BH4x0r]

@@theyeetus1428 in cars, yes, on ebikes it's just too expensive in cars the problem is that people want to hear shifting noises, which is retarded in my opinion, why would you pick something less efficient? but whatever since i've got a bbshd on my ebike i haven't ever shifted as it has a great rpm and power range, it can climb hills and reach 40km/h in gear 3/7 (it's limited to 25km/h cuz of Europe trash rules but it can), but since it's power limited (battery current limit) rather than increasing in power as it goes faster (motor current limit) it's perfect, sort of, more torque and power wouldn't hurt but it's fine at 1500W electric cars (no shifting) and no-shift ebikes (enough power or cvt) are the best either way. I mean nobody should want to really slow down cuz of a normal uphill, it makes the ride even more boring

[@crypticthecat7563]

the opportunity to use an amplifier to keep the pedal feel while supplying power is quite interesting.

[@GraveUypo]

i'd buy one. sounds fun and i really don't care about efficiency, i prefer comfort. my objective isn't to race or go far, it's to exercise, so whether i go 30 or 20kph, it's all the same to me. and my city is super hilly, so using regular bikes is awful. this would allow me to have the absolute same load whether going downhill or uphill, which is perfect

[@robguyatt9602]

I've designed a similar idea for a pedal generator and battery-powered electric motor-driven Kayak. My system does use digital control for the BLDC motor as they are more efficient than brushed DC motors. The overall idea is simply to extend the battery life.

[@Sergio_Loureiro]

Maybe there are more advantages: less need for rare earths and less weight (which also results in greater battery life). The downside, is you need to convert the DC battery to an AC current and a more electronically complex control system of the motor torque and velocity.

[@robguyatt9602]

@@Sergio_Loureiro My design just uses a sensorless BLDC motor for prop and one for generator. I'm not concerned about rare earth magnets. This is just a hobby project for my own use. 3 ph AC is automatically created in the generator but then is rectified to DC for battery charging and the prop motor driver. A pretty simple design. :) Prop motor speed is simple in software. No need for constant torque control in such a system.

[@TheOutsidePerks]

Terrific content Alee! Thank you. Good stuff. Seems interesting but the chain will not be dethroned!

[@asificam1]

If you used 2 motors, and a power split device like a planetary gear, you could basically make a miniature version of a Prius transmission... just no engine. That could make it more in line with the efficiency of a gear system but with the advantages of an e bike with regen braking.

[@mat_name_whatever]

This will take off once cheap, high temperature superconductors are commercially available, can't wait!

[@sifi7950]

Great video! I’ll stick with my chains and belt, but this was great content, as ever! 👌

[@blue_beephang-glider5417]

Recumbent bike design with a chain/belts has always been a challenge. There will be some neat designs out of this. Though the never spoken about flat tires will still stop wide use.

[@Pietje900]

I think this especially starts to make a lot of sense today with electrically assisted bicycles. You already have the motor, so If you can have a fairly efficient generator, then you can get rid of the chain and the gears entirely, which means less wear and thus less maintenance. You can choose yourself how much power you want to put into the system vs. how much the battery delivers, and this way, you could increase your range, probably significantly. I own an electric bicycle, which only has a rotation sensor and no gears. This means that it won't let me invest any of my own energy. I only have to move my legs to activate the motor which does all the work for me. The only reason the chain is there is to get me of the line. It has a range of 40 km but I'm noticing a significant and exponential power decrease after 20 km. Being able to deliver extra power with a generator could make a huge difference there I feel. This way you can still have your workout whenever you want without a chain or belt. This could really simplify electric bicycles. Add regenerative braking and it even starts making more sense!

[@ulrichkalber9039]

I think where this could really shine is complex pedal driven vehicles. There are "party bikes" that have 12 people pedaling away, I would guess that the drivetrain is rather complex and it is hard for everybody to do their best. This vehicles would also be large enough to fit solar panels as a sunroof. They also fall into the cathegory of battery supported vehicles.

[@LZWEHDKE]

Bicycle concepts to seat-tubes be like "we don't do that here"

[@markifi]

some of these seat ideas are wacky but i do wish people would adopt what kuberg does on their electric motorcycles

[@Shankovich]

Very interesting. With regards motor control, there’s a company called EXRO that has patented and in production modules to take care of this. I think if they brought it down to 48V it would solve a lot of these issues.

[@call_me_jujo_9493]

But efficiency. wayyyy to poor.

[@kuchenblechmafiagmbh1381]

It's an interesting idea, such concepts exist for larger vehicles: A lot of cruise ships have Azipods and these have electric motors for the propellers, thanks to that they can turn them 360° and the power is generated by a diesel engine coupled to a generator (however you could also use a nuclear reactor oder fuel cells), so they have a much better maneuverability than with a classic shaft-driven propeller and rudder. On trains and locomotives most diesel-powered aren't directly driving the wheels through a gearbox (a few do like railbuses or their successors - light diesel multiple units like the Alstom Coradia LINT), but some have hydraulic transmissions (comparable to construction machinery, however these are more hydrostatic while such trains are usually hydrodynamic) and most are diesel-electric, the diesel engine drives a generator that feeds the electric motors that drive the wheels, nowadays there are also "hybrid" locomotives like the Siemens Vectron Dual Mode it can use the overhead lines with the pantograph but also has a diesel generator, so it could literally drive on every track. On cars these "serial hybrids" are rare, the Fisker Karma was such an example and the Chevy Volt/Opel Ampera except one mode where the combustion engine was mechanically connected to the wheels it usually used the electric motors, and BEVs with range extender like BMW i3, Mazda MX-30 R EV. The first of that kind were already built from 1900: The Lohner-Porsches, constructed by a young Ferdinand Porsche. But I don't see the point on bicycles, the mechanical methods are highly efficient and IMHO you need some resistance or almost Force Feedback, I only see potential for some eccentric frame styles that wouldn't be possible with chain/belt.

[@BartoszBanachewicz]

Nitpick: "two wires transmit the power you're generating straight to the motor". Firstly, it's not straight if it goes through the battery and control electronics. Secondly, a typical induction motor will actually come with three wires to transmit power, not two. Learning why three is a great venture into how humanity has used electricity since the industrial revolution.

[@Mark-vv1dy]

Great video, but I disagree with the statement that digital drive e-bikes will be better in poor weather - at least in winter conditions like the photo shown as you said that. Battery output drops massively in cold weather, so you could conceivably bike somewhere, park your bike outside, and return to a dead battery a few hours later. Then you'd have to pedal your heavy, battery-equipped bike purely via the inefficient digital drive to get home. I've been driving an electric car for the last seven years, and a cold-soaked battery on a return trip is something I'm very familiar with.

[@Bmr4life]

You assumed there is a battery. Could be a capacitor bank.

[@6Planet]

I think I'd always rather have a pedal assist e-bike with a regular chain. The chainless electric bike seems like a novelty that exchanges efficiency for some cool factor. Which granted some of them do look cool and futuristic. An ebike with regenerative braking to me seems like the best path forward for bikes. Or just ride something cheap and human powered that won't get stolen, that's probably the most cost effective. Ebikes are already being banned on lots of trails in the US unfortunately, and likely digital fall under that same ban.

[@danc2014]

ebikes are banned because the battery can allow the bikes to move faster than a normal riders speed. US law regulate then to under 25 mph unassisted but people alter them , thus the ban.

[@aresivrc1800]

@@danc2014 If they would be similar strict about cars who legally are capable of highway speeds in inner city...

[@aresivrc1800]

For a regular bike, a mechanical electrically assisted drivetrains makes more sense. But for e-cargo-bikes, this type of drivetrain can be much better than anything chain based.

[@isaiahwelch8066]

​@@danc2014: I don't know where you're living, but Michigan allows E-bikes on its trails, for the most part. The way the statutes are written is that an E-bike is restricted in top speed, but for some reason, a human-powered bike isn't? I can get a 26" 21-speed MTB up to 45 mph on flat land, with slight variations on pavement. Which, by the way, is the actual speed limit on some roads around my area. Point is, I see no point to restricting E-bikes according to motor rating or top speed, when anything below a 11.1 kw power output rating is not allowed on interstate highways and freeways only (i.e., limited-acess highways). And Interestingly enough, the only type of vehicle whatsoever that's rated at some kind of class are commercial vehicles, based on GVW; number of passengers that can be carried; and number of axles. Not even cars & trucks are regulated by motor size or horsepower, which discriminates against E-bikes, given that speed limits exist for a reason, and most E-bikes have speedometers. So my question is, why not just simply say, "E-bikes are e-bikes, no matter what the power output is, and the only obligation an e-bike rider has is to adhere to the speed limit of whatever road they're on, and that they are prohibited from all limited-access highways"? The rules for E-bikes just seem arbitrary and discriminatory, is all I am saying.

[@RsigmaGS_G]

Personally for me, the biggest use case is probably being able to have much more compacted folded forms to travel with bike through public transit and store it while at work or something. Of cause this is inefficient for biking itself but the net benefit for my personal use case seems promising

[@bobbysusenbach9687]

Thanks for sharing this content. What's the approximate cost for non-auto vwrsion and In your opinion, can it reliably handle a Bafang BBSHD's 1000++ Watts of power if you didn't hotrod it?

[@saschah911]

You're a legend! Thank you for the video!!! I am stoked af!!!

[@SP-ny1fk]

Depends if you want peddle assist, or the motor to take over - in which case you will have an electric moped.

[@aresivrc1800]

The moment there is a battery and an electric motor on a bike, there is no technical reason for it not to be capable of "driving on its own". It is only a legal thing that the motor stops operating when you stop pedaling. This is true for all e-bikes. So while a motor only driving the bike without added mechanical input from the user (using electrical input instead) may be seem different, it actually really isnt. And because the motor does a large part of the work in the first place on e-cargo-bikes, it also is shockingly unimportant how much input energy the human actually provides.

[@bentBuilder]

If the motor attached to the crank is an ac syncronous motor you can power each phase of both the rotor and stator. But if you increase or decrease the ac voltage of one with a dc offset it'll act like a transmission.

[@sariloffler8634]

I think there is an area where this concept could actually be useful: in training! When you try to train at a certain power output out on the road, the problem occurs that however how hard you try, you will never be able to hold an exact power number. It will vary signifficantly depending on wind and especially on slope. Just a little gradient (wich you cannot see with the naked eye) and you go from, let‘s say, 200 Watts up to 350 without noticing. This reduces the time in your target range and makes training less efficient. With a „digital drive train“ or whatever better name someone could come up with it could be possible to keep a desired power output despite variations in cadence or gradient. A battery could compensate the poor efficiancy to give you the speed you would get on a normal drive train. In a nutshell you would have a smart trainer, but out on the road.

[@vwarbase277]

This is cool. Instead of charging the bike at home with an outlet, just put it on a track stand and pedal it charged. I think this is a really cool idea, but for my purposes, simplicity is what I need. My single speed ebike gets me there every time. Just hop on and hop off. A little bit of charge on each end. Clean up the chain and gears once a month. My next bike would ideally be an ebike with an internal gear hub and a carbon belt drive. Hop on and hop off just like a car is what I need to get around without lots of planning and tinkering.

[@davidzombori54]

Have one, great thing! Go for it!

[@Sam1kka]

And to make it extra easy, remove all electronics so you don't even need to charge it ;)

[@Ulbre]

When i was a young man I was very fit and one of the reasons was that I cycled 30 km each way to and from work. Having technology do the work for me would make things easier but I would lose most of the benefit of exercise. I also used to swim 2km and run 10 km per day.....I guess the future will invent something to make this easier as well. Still, I would love to give this a go, now that I am old and not so mobile.....maybe this could re-invent my passion for exercise that I once had?

[@janthran]

try running 10km per day without shoes and then let me know if our technology ruined the experience or improved it

[@Ulbre]

@@janthran as i said, I am now old and not so mobile....so I will not try running 10km per day with or without shoes, because I know I cannot :(

[@janthran]

@@Ulbre my point is just that as technology advances, it becomes normalized. you don't even think about shoes as "using technology to make walking easier" but it that's absolutely what they are.

[@wimharter]

I don't think you got the point. You will still have to pedal this bike. A bike like this with just the generator and motor would not have any more power than what you provide.

[@Ulbre]

@@wimharter I think I totally got the point whereas you totally missed the point of my comment....but hey, you lot are out there!!!!

[@paca5655]

Amazing tech! Very inspiring vid~ thank you!

[@pkattk]

Great video, and I agree with your conclusion. Digital drive trains will never replace a true enthusiasts setup where weight and simplicity is the priority (can't expect to be able to diagnose software issues when you're in the middle of a mountain!), but they will be a gamechanger for people who are not 'traditional' cyclists... reliability and low maintenance being a major factor in people who are scared of biking. And the lack of a physical drivetrain will make the shape possibilities endless. I'm looking at cargo ebikes right now, and seeing some of the chain set ups on the longer models gives me serious anxiety. A digital drive train would be perfect for something like that.