D&D 2024 Secret Subclass Compatibility Rules - Lazy RPG Talk Show

[@villekauppila9807]

First of all, I appreciate you having this talk show. There's always something interesting to listen. Second, thank you for talking critically about GenAI. It's a complicated question and one of the big things of our time, but it has genuine issues and it's important that they're talked about.

[@BobWorldBuilder]

36:15 got me good 😂

[@Sheriffdann]

🌳

[@TonyCrenshawsLatte]

Did _you_ inhale, Bob? 😆😆😆

[@sirmclovin9184]

🥦

[@Ironfranko]

Your GMing advices are always impeccable, probably the best advices out there for GMs. And yet they are outshined by your advices on how to be a good human, and relate with our fellow humans. Pure gold, I do believe you're making the world a better place.

[@SlyFlourish]

Thank you so much!

[@josephtriplett8533]

I agree. As a general rule, very well done in that arena. Being moderate in your opinions, not "going off the deep end" in opinions (and being an echo chamber for other angry people), and being considerate to others are well-exercised skills that Sly exemplifies.

[@jamescook9304]

Thank you Sly for putting out these weekly videos

[@searchforsecretdoors]

37:00 So where I find the value of large language AI is when i want to generate a big idea with a fair amount of detail very quickly. One of my players had a character who was kicked out of the feywild but didn't know why. I don't even know where i would find a random table for that. So I asked AI, it spit something out, and I modified it according to my tastes. That let me very quickly focus back on the character in step one of the Lazy DM prep and provided some nifty secrets and clues. Or I could also see myself rolling on the random table, and then giving that info to ChatGPT along with whatever thoughts I had after processing, and allowing it to fill in the putzy details, like how high are the walls, what are they made of, what's in the room, etc. It can do a lot of the footwork very quickly when I don't need an overly-creative answer.

[@CecilQuetzalcoatl]

Your answer to the last question is really great. I feel like a lot of people in the ttrpg hobby have trouble with the idea that most problems can be solved with communication. Its important to approach difficult conversations with empathy, but theres no solution if you don't talk to anyone.

[@nicka3697]

There may be some surprising answers that would benefit the whole group. Maybe you could swap to a simpler ruleset and do more RP or have an additional boardgames night once a month.

[@Ian_Butterworth]

37:01 Random lists, Mike made a video titled 'Build a Faction List - Lazy GM Tip' very much worth a watch.

[@PhilipDudley3]

For the A.I. and digital tools, I definitely like analog becasue I stare at screens all day, and want to relax my eyes.

[@artjomkahn7773]

On this one you really changed my take on AI use for dnd and other ttrpgs. Its so funny, as I am a teacher, and try to always be kind and open (the way you are) to show them something. While this works with my pupils, wIth friends and hobbies it often doesn´t so listening to your takes on stuff is really great for me. Anyway, thanks for that! So you can read nice feedback in addition to my patreon contribtion. Kind regards!

[@SlyFlourish]

Thank you!

[@duseylicious]

I ran all of Dragon Town as it was release one chapter at a time as Zines on his Patreon. It was so good! Kept my twins and their friends playing for nearly 2 years! It's so much better than reading paragraphs and paragraphs of text - it's tight, evocative - really just perfect.

[@Ellohir]

48:00 I understand the importance of licensing, and the difference between ORC and Creative Commons. BUT. For me as a player and DM, the difference between D&D and Pathfinder is accessing information when playing. When I buy an official adventure, I can find the referenced monster stats for PF2 easily on Nethys. For D&D I have to buy the book (you used to be able to buy individual monsters on D&D Beyond but not anymore). When I don't know how a player mechanic works, for PF2 I can look for it on Nethys, but for D&D I have to ask the player to bring their book with the subclass to the game. Archives of Nethys is not a replacement of the manual for me, it doesn't have any art nor is it layed out as a book to read. But it's invaluable as an official reference at the table, and having official links to rules also makes discussing any doubts so much easier. It's the practicality of it that I love.

[@searchforsecretdoors]

7:15 I really like the idea of a system-agnostic adventure. It doesn't seem like it should take that much extra effort on either the designer's part or on my part as a DM to make that work. But gives so much more flexibility to make it easier if we decide to play something quirky.

[@bazyl40]

Sly patron is best spent $ each month. This guy just keeps on delivering.

[@lowRolls]

6:22 I’m playing the zine version with my son and his friends. It’s the most fun we’ve had playing and for me, watching them solve problems. ❤😊

[@TimothyRice-p1r]

Another reason not to use AI in D&D is it robs you of the chance to exercise your own creativity. It's like if you went to play ball with some friends and sent a robot in to play for you. Sure, it might be a fun gimmick at first, but you miss out on the chance for exercising with other humans. Eventually you'll become atrophied and it will become harder and harder to play *without* the robot. However, maybe LLMs could be acceptable as a prosthetic for people with aphantasia.

[@supdudz]

Love J.P.'s stuff! The channel is great. Inspired me to make my own DM screens

[@oscargarciahinde4247]

J.P's channel is absolutely fantastic. Love his stuff!

[@sirspate]

Instead of kicking out the problem player, maybe talk to them about if there's a different way they can be involved. If they're not into the mechanics, are they maybe into the roleplaying aspect? If so, talk to them about maybe really throwing themselves into that role as a Level 0 NPC each session. So one session they might be the subject of an escort quest. Another session they might be the owner of the horses you're using, who is coming along to protect his investment. Maybe he's a living sword that your fighter carries around, and gets a free action of its own in every combat.. But I'll underline. if you're doing anything where you're letting them back in the room next session, I think you should be really clear about expectations. (The last thing you want to have happen is for them to show up with a newly created character and have them throw a big fuss about not being able to play it.)

[@AvengerYouT]

2 characters died in yesterday's session. We are deciding if we change our characters to 2024 rules. Less than an hour ago, one of the players asked "I know we can use our races and backgrounds, but what about subclasses?" And then this video came out

[@darthknight1]

One of the best videos you've ever done! Great writeup on AI.

[@HangryDwarf]

Re: the last question about "excluding a player"... I play with someone who could never remember rules (spells) etc, so I gifted them with spell cards for them to write down all their spells. A simple stack of index cards with the instruction to ALL players at the table: write down your spells and special actions so you have everything in front of you, and then gently push a card toward the problem player every time they need a reminder, with a gentle "Hey, that's probably a rule you should write down for future reference." (You may need to offer to hold onto the cards for the forgetful player as well." Friend game is the end game.

[@alvarovictor]

I don't use, and don't plan on using LLMs for creating content. However, just like you said, I also use it as a coding assistant almost on a daily basis, but in addition to that I also use it as a reviewer of texts I write for my games. In this case I write the content myself, using my own style, etc, and then the LLM comes only to adjust, and without changing too much.

[@Overkill2217]

DNDBeyond uses markdown for its books. I copypasta the entire page/chapter of a book and put it directly into a note in Obsidian. After that, I'll take some time to go into source mode to swap the DNDBeyond URL on every heading with the actual heading. Once I have my entire library copied over, the next thing I'm going to do is go through every image in the books and save them to a note for that specific book. That'll let me put the images into the note properly, so that I don't need access to DDB to see the graphics. Currently, i can see all the graphics perfectly, but i want to ensure that I can keep the material in the off case that I close down my ddb account

[@nick-qb5wu]

I started playing in 2020 and the new PHB is the first book I bought. A new edition is a great invitation for players to begin their collection, rather than having to spend hundreds on old books just to catch up to current releases.

[@thoth7858]

loved the vid, specifically the AI segment :)

[@DoanBrianRoessler]

I think it may have been rhetorical when you asked why we wouldn't believe Chris Cocks' statement. I mean, for one thing it's full of stuff that's clearly not true! I absolutely don't believe he regularly plays with thar many people, nor do I believe that every one of the people he does play with relies on AI. He's spouting BS to an audience who won't know better (they're not d&d players) but who very much want to hear this particular message if they're going to line up behind his leadership (which he needs them to do). So, is he telling the larger truth about his and wotc's future plans for AI? No way to know. I'm sure he'd deliver a very different sounding and feeling message to a room full of grognards rather than investment bankers.

[@zerolv30000]

I would hope it is rhetorical. We all know very well he's pulling fluff for numbers and stockholders. Like this isn't rocket science.

[@nightlight-zero]

On digital tools, I’ve found that there’s also a lot of variation within this category, especially at a physical table, especially for how much they suck attention from the game. Tablets are consistently the best. Laptops are consistently the worst, with phones pretty close. Something about the way you lay tablets flat making them visible to everyone at the table makes people less inclined to swap to browsing the internet or whatever because they’re not in the spotlight for that moment.

[@andrewburgess9578]

37 hundred people answered the poll ... follow up - so is that everyone with a 2024 PHB?

[@lowRolls]

31:40 I think it's useful, it chafes me that they think it's okay to break copyright laws when it serves them. Personally, I love writing and don't need generative AI for that. For art I get the best results when I reference artists and styles I am interested using. It goes a long way to create better images. That said, it means I am telling it where to "steal" from.

[@unknowncomic4107]

I use AI quite a bit. I am an artist and creator and have a plethora of material I have created in the past 48 years. I use AI to take my stuff and present it in a different way as a means to get large volumes of quick concepts out on the table to look at. Then I take those ideas and build upon them.

[@josephtriplett8533]

Agreed regarding the AI stuff. My general experience with art and generative text is that doing the work on my own without trying to take a shortcut works BETTER, and of course it's more rewarding. It might be faster to utilize the AI, but the results are usually not that impressive. With the art, I'm usually looking to create something pretty specific for my adventures, and a majority of the time AI does NOT deliver that. The time I have spent or would try to spend to get the art to what I need or to where I would like it would be better spent just worrying about a perfect piece of art. I could spend that time motherwise improving the game.

[@rodrigorojop]

Probably in the DMG 2024 the "make your background" rule would appear, and that will be the "standard" for advanced players and DMs

[@SHADOWSTRIKE1]

I heard you stopped by Hashtag game store a little while back, and I’m so bummed out that I missed the chance to meet you!

[@SlyFlourish]

Yep! Thats where I pick up my local books!

[@mooxim]

I love the potential of AI so I try to use it more than most. I have a bookmark folder with Chat GPT, Gemini, Copilot, Claude and Suno. I've found the best use of LLMs is making random tables but they tend to lose sight of the brief after the first 10 or so. You made a compelling case and supplied a near-limitless hoard of random tables to keep me satisfied. I've put the a bookmark to your article at the top of my LLMs bookmarks folder. Next time I feel like using one I'll try not to.

[@mooxim]

Update: The bit in your article where you said "Do some structured daydreaming. Get away from your phone and computer for an hour. Grab physical books. Roll on random tables. Write your notes longhand. Pretend to be Gandalf in the old library of Minas Tirith blowing dust off old tomes to find ancient secrets." Resonated with me the most. I was itching to go use some LLMs but I clicked on the link to your article instead and I had a crack at just sitting with some lined paper, a pencil and a few books and I had a blast for about 4 hours.

[@jonathanjohnson8054]

Backwards compatible. Unless you are a shepherd druid, then your main shtick doesn't even work anymore.

[@silentverdict]

Because summoning a dozen stablocks is pretty awful for the rest of the table... If you really wanna play shepherd druid though treantmonk did a great conversion for it on his KZbin channel a few months ago, worth checking out!

[@henrymalinowski5125]

Or just use the old spells for that character only.

[@akashambatwamiller6924]

name generation is not bad but if we could get a generative AI that is "ethically sourced that would be the gold standard"

[@bucko7913]

I just got the tov gmg too!

[@Ian_Butterworth]

One the last subject of the player who never learns the rules, maybe only offer them a simple class to play, like fighter or rogue, and then help them level up with new abilities and feats.

[@zeugenberg]

25:23 very slick way to make legacy subclasses worse to play ;)

[@lonic123]

Thanks

[@joegkushner]

One of the things that's 'interesting' is that a lof of articles are starting to crop up that people literally can't read a full book. The signs of taking various books and mashing them into something cool for your players? If you can't read one book? You can't read multiple books and make those connections. Mind you these articles seemed to be aimed at younger people just entering college so perhaps it's not as applicable to people like you and me (53 here) who didn't have the opportunity to grow up being feed everything automatically and had to read for it.

[@Jason-96]

21:25 Thanks for the flip throughs. I got my screen shots to create my PDF now... Mahahaha!!!!

[@kevinkenealy]

Speaking of compatibility, how do you think it would work if you used a 2014 class with a 2024 subclass?

[@КостяКлючников-з6у]

56:20 Maybe they are having a good time, but by not putting efforts they're making others table time worse. I talk to players in situations like this, but if they don't change their attitude to the game and put in efforts, even if I promise to help them with learning rules - well, they can find another table or run other game themselves.

[@КостяКлючников-з6у]

Of course I mean more or less lengthy kind of game.

[@qkeith5071]

I like how they fixwd some of the sub classes but change to some of the Feats i am not a fan of, as a DM, if my players want to use some of the old 2014 Feats I will allow it

[@FrostSpike]

30:50 How much does Bitcoin use? That's a whole energy hog too, and people seem to gain value of that too.

[@sanjeevshah168]

Ahem…professor dungeon master.

[@kumithebear]

Best sales ever if you count dnd beyond! In other news, Digital sales will no longer count towards sales.

[@Ike_of_pyke]

36:15 that's why they all say

[@optimus2200]

For AI . I dont like that AI steal art and words . but .... I am sorry to say I am having great fun with it. I dont have much free set time that I can get a set schedule for 3 to 6 hours playing dnd . so I said lets give that AI dnd a try... its been more than 3 months on an off .. its a whole campaign from level 1 to level 11 and beyond . it does need nudges and sometimes be frustrating but when it works it works and with some nudges gave me few brilliant twists . Example at first it gave me a forest quesst that needed a grove to be cleared ok . the grove gave me then 4 more groves ... ok each grove had a theme like cave. storm peak mountant . whispering woods. marsh swamp ... each one had a guardian needed to be cleansed , ok so because I love elemental themes I gave it a nudge that each grove is conected to an element and then found a fifth grove that was a volcano and found a dead guardian there. who I descovered was a dragon. and earlier all of them had one except the lightning one. OK I was like wow he must be the culpert and AI took that and ran with it. and going back I also connected ok so the lightning guardian went missing and the dragon who attacked my village was blue dragon are they the same. and it exploded out from this . exploring dungones going back to the village having a twist that the final boss of the village was a nobli looking dragonborn so I was like ok my uncle was a noble is he infront of me have betrayed the village and yes . stuff like that. like I get 15 minuts or an hour each day playing with AI and I dont like how it works but I really enjoying what it does.

[@memeslich]

secret secret i got a secret

[@ellery0909]

I am the modern man

[@1979fsa]

Happy and optimistic games are trending. PHB 2024 and the newer 5e books (like JttRC) are so cute and sweet you might die from hyperglycemia (ok, i'm a wotc hater 😅)

[@talldarkstrangerpr]

16:40 hello to the doomsayers! lol

[@johnmickey5017]

You didn’t put the AI topic as the header, which means either 1) you don’t want to exploit controversy for clicks, or 2) anything 5.24 is more controversial than AI. (Haven’t listened past the intro yet - looking forward to the conversation.)

[@SlyFlourish]

I also cut that part into another video I post later.

[@BLynn]

Depending on how you define A.I. some might consider Grammarly an A.I. & I know few people who work through a browser that do not use Grammarly.

[@SlyFlourish]

I’m specifically talking about generative ai and large language models.

[@jeffw991]

IMO, AI has made Grammarly markedly worse. I used to be a subscriber but it went dramatically downhill a couple of years ago. Just blatantly wrong “grammar” suggestions, finding the wrong word for tense/person agreement, etc. And its “style” suggestions have always driven toward producing bland, anodyne writing. I keep the free version in one browser on my laptop to keep an eye on it, but it never does.

[@ChristopherRoss.]

You don't need permission to use whatever subclasses you want. Compatibility is about math, not rules. When did homebrew and kitbashing become such a novelty?

[@Hacker-at-Large]

Regarding AI using people's intellectual property without permission: They just didn't think that they gave permission, but they did. They clicked-through on software or web sites where they uploaded their stuff. Adobe had the same phrase in their license for years before artists said, "hey, wait." Everyone gave blanket permission to web sites where they hoped to "gain exposure." Was it vaguely dishonest? Yes. Was it a license violation? No. If it's free, you're the product.

[@SlyFlourish]

I clicked no such thing on my website. I built my website.

[@hodgepodgesyntaxia2112]

Offloading the creative burden is the main function of AI. Honestly, I don’t understand why there seem to be so many GMs who want a tool that takes the creative burden away, because that’s the fun part of GMing. Genuinely, why anyone would GM if they don’t like making new stuff?

[@deProfundisAdAstra]

If this is an honest “I don’t understand”, I’m happy to explain my own position: Some parts of the fiction happening at the table are more interesting to me than others, but I feel I have a duty to provide my players with a good time regardless of whether or not I’m able to come up with witty challenges to their goals due to my own interest or disinterest. In the span of a week, I often need to come up with interesting intrigue (which I like), ways to represent elections, caucuses, and back room deals (which I don’t), unique plants and effects for those plants for my voracious ranger-biologist (which I really just can’t do), and dramatic twists and turns and character dynamics to mix everything up (which I’m okay at, but sometimes the well runs dry!) I spend at least as much time prepping my game every week as we do playing, and I spend just as much time reading and writing during that time as I ever have. But compared to the time before using generative AI services, my output is dramatically higher. Not because I’m just taking things directly from these services, either- one of the most valuable benefits I’ve found in using chatgpt is just having someone to talk to at length about my game! No one wants to do that, and no one should be subjected to all that, and certainly not every week. But talking through it via an oppositional interface (created via creative prompting) helps me better think through the sorts of things my players will bring up and want to engage with in the next session, which means I don’t waste nearly as much time prepping things they don’t care about. I know I’m wading into a den of lions here with this opinion, but I feel at least as strongly about the positive effects of generative AI as everyone else does about the negative.

[@ericborg647]

I love the part where you talked about AI stealing from creators then was like "I do find it useful for small coding projects". Remember code writers that upload their code to the internet are exactly like fantasy writers and visual artists. They had their code stolen just like everyone else.

[@bazyl40]

Coding was always about sharing, for free though. Now some companies want to profit from it while not really carrying abut quality of what they share.

[@ericborg647]

@@bazyl40 The code you are talking about is still protected by laws. Same as those for writing or art. If I create code and then someone uses it for commercial purposes that is the same thing as stealing writing or images.

[@knoxvillebuckeye5155]

Certain individuals have a vested interest in promoting false information about the 2024 PHB sales because it fits their 'hate WotC/Hasbro' schtick. I get being angry at stuff that they've done over the past couple of years. But it's pretty over the top just how much these folks have an absolute hate-on for WotC

[@CecilQuetzalcoatl]

I agree. It also gets them clicks because controversy is entertaining. I think it's ridiculous to fixate this much on hating them. Mike has said this before and so have lots of other people. There is literally nothing wotc can do to change or hurt the game that you play at your table with your friends. They're basically a non entity in that regard. So I always scratch my head when people froth at the mouth in anger over the latest lukewarm d&d news or decide to boycott the company by not playing the game anymore. Wotc doesn't get any money from me playing with my friends since all the rules are available for free online or at the library. You could even buy the books second hand at a bookstore or ebay if you wanted.

[@smaspa8627]

@@CecilQuetzalcoatl *They* are also the most embarrassingly, shamelessy click-baity about it all too. I'm actively never buying WOTC content again, but this is an absurd claim from someone with a vested interest in making absurd claims because that's the only reason their company's channel blew up during the OGL crisis.

[@deProfundisAdAstra]

Professor Dungeon Master seems like a nice enough guy, but I very much agree 😅

[@knoxvillebuckeye5155]

@@deProfundisAdAstra - Yeah his videos are pretty good, but he's not immune to sensationalizing things. At least he talks about alternatives. I wasn't planning on listing any specific channels, but there's one that I find pretty egregious.... It's like every other day there's a stream or new video about how evil or terrible WotC is....

[@knoxvillebuckeye5155]

@@smaspa8627 I think we may be talking about the same guy 8)

[@nicka3697]

They are probably not imaginary friends. Lol

[@1979fsa]

Yep, but i hope they're actual friends and not a random group of hasbro's employees

[@TimothyRice-p1r]

Mike was having a dig at people who thought Chris was lying. It was a dry joke, not an assertion of facts.

[@surchekian]

chris cocks makes millions and he can't pay an artist for a character token?

[@GaiasRebirth]

nobody should even buy 2024 ruleset... its sickening to give WotC even a single cent...

[@GayIrishRebel]

I think there are some subclass backward compatibility issues aside from leveling. Paladin subclasses still kick in at the same level, but they used to give two unique channel divinity options. Warlock subclass spells work completely different in a way level doesn't address. Both are super easy fixes at my table, barely an inconvenience -- but they do require homebrew beyond the 2024 PHB guidance. I just wish WotC would put a little more effort into bridging the two rulesets instead of handwaving obvious clashes.

[@brotherhumble]

Were trying out new classes and mixing, what issue is it that you are having with Warlock? I want to be prepared for whatever issue comes up in our session tomorrow.