D&D Bards in 2022 | Web DM | TTRPG | D&D

We're taking a look at BARDS in 2022 - How has the most dramatic class in 5e Dungeons and Dragons evolved over the years, and what can we expect from them in One D&D?
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[@ollie.jandro]

I've always been a fan of non-standard performance in bards, like dance, poetry, even street magic. They could be performers without being locked into being the standard troubadour trope.

[@egrettacaerulea]

#TeamComponentPouch

[@derekstein6193]

I was going to put forth the same idea. My approach is that the "Words of Creation" aspect is just a very specific series of sounds; vibrations that propagate through reality, altering it along the way. The strum of a pure, beat of a drum, piping of a flute, stamping of feet, clapping of hands, and vocal rhythm and pattern all create vibrations in one's surroundings. Music, dance and poetry all come naturally to most humanoid creatures. Those forms of expression have historically been known to affect people's emotions and spirituality, so it makes sense that in a magical world these actions (if done with very specific methods and intent) can charm, deceive, shatter, and bolster resolve. Bardic magic is more than just some horn tooting or harp solos.

[@candle_nine]

Maybe I'm biased as a musician, but thematically I really love the Pathfinder 2E Bard. How you choose a muse, and then it's as if you follow your inspirations as you level up and learn new stuff until you reach the last level and have the option to get the ability to play a song that is so emotionally powerful it will literally break someone's heart. I love that. Playing in 5E I would probably try to find some way to adapt that at least thematically in some way.

[@SpartanB23]

I was a little late but just thinking on this. Like my introduction to RPGs was Final Fantasy, so Bards for me were always the Red Mage class. Can do a bit of everything but not as good as the class they're taking it from

[@RobKinneySouthpaw]

I love the excuse to do pop culture references as a bard. Not disruptively, but making associations with songs as the verbal components of spells. Doesn't require me to perform it, but everyone.lnows what the mood is when a song is the components.

[@Jeromy1986]

Just imagine a Bard playing music by blowing over the tops of the bottles in a poison kit and contracts the poison 🤣

[@douglasphillips5870]

I like having bards cast spells through force of personality. They don't necessarily use arcane words or strange gestures. They speak with passion and gesture for emphasis. But it's through their ability to force their will on the world that it takes form. My bard says, "don't you die on me!" And his ally wakes up from being beaten by an enemy.

[@DaDunge]

59:30 I mean magical secrets allows the bard access to the divine and primal spell lists too. I however suggested in my survey they allow yiu to chose which list you want as your first one rather than it always being the Arcane one.

[@scottkim135]

lmao jim davis you just literally described my bardlock character -- from a community of itinerants who practice oral history keeping

[@silverbird425]

Boo! prepared spells for Bards. Now you're just a singing mage.

[@silverbird425]

The one thing that drives me crazy about playing a Wizard is finding spells as the chance of finding spellbooks is about the same as charming a mind flayer.

[@martinpat94]

Personally I like the idea of not limiting their magic to only music. There is lots of art aside from music and I like playing my Painter Bard. They have like a sketchbook that when they need a complicated spell they open the book and the drawing comes to life for the spell effect. Honestly it doesn’t do anything but change the flavor and nothing can be wrong with that, but I know there are a lot of people that insist that it has to be music and nothing else

[@evilminion4989]

Bard college of spirits allows other objects as a focus (atleast for some spells). I like the image of a bard (actor) going "alas poor Yoric, I knew him Horacio" while holding up his spell focus (a skull), and casting while the audience thinks he's just performing.

[@DaDunge]

52:45 Exploring Eberron has a bunch of downgraded cantrips for NPCs. Including prestidigitation broken up for its effects. I think it also suggest lesser spellcasters might use cantrips as first levels spells.

[@silverbird425]

I always thought that voice is a musical instrument - the best bass player often isn't a good singer. The difference I think of is it's nearly impossible for a bard to cast a spell silently - a wizard has problems if they can't do somantic, a bard has problems if they can't talk/sing/play music, (though in Pathfinder Dance also is the equivalent of an instrument, not sure if that would work in D&D).

[@Dack.howaboutyou]

i think a reasonable GM (i would) should allow some form of performance movement, like dance, or even just changing body language in a profound way, could be just that "silent performance" needed if total silence is key; otherwise perhaps just mouthing the words and thinking them out-loud in your head (for singing/recital or verbal comps?) seems logical to me personally.

[@seymourfields3613]

This is why once my Lore Bard gets everything I want, I might just make him a Bardlock. My Bard just made level 3 in Sunless Citadel after talking his way through a second fight in the adventure.

[@derekstein6193]

Bards don't seem to parallel mages all that much, not just because of their martial skills, but also because they have many divine spells, something mages can't touch. A bard in 5e is closer to a thaumaturge than any arcane or divine caster. Also, treating them as "traveling wizards" just seems like a method to change them into another wizard tradition, instead of their own class.

[@kashinewell6239]

Bard was the first class I played in 5e, before I really knew how the edition worked. Seems like they would be great fun to play but the campaign we played my character was almost totally useless and nearly died every battle. The campaign idea was cool, a giant spider demon illusionist enchanted an entire countryside to look like some kind of strange psychadelic horror world. Half the party's builds were more like power gaming a stand alone character and they were all cool but basically because there wasn't much synergy between us everyone would just do their own thing in battle and I'd get creamed in a couple after using my few spells. The monsters had to be strong cus the other characters were melee beasts and seemed nearly unkillable a d the dm kept trying to make it harder for them. I felt so vulnerable so I tried taking the spell fear partway through in case I got surrounded again and the party wasn't gonna help. But the first time I cast it caused so much chaos it kinda ruined the game that day. The dm was overwhelmed making so many saving throws and the rough got hit by it and ran away from the battle for 4 turns then had to run back 4 more turns and by then the battle had just finished XD I felt terrible and wasn't sure if I wanted to try a bard again but they seem like they would be a lot of fun with the right party and campaign. I loved getting to insult the enemies and they take psychic damage, thought it was cool they get stuff like fly abd dimension door plus can grab spells from other schools so they seem like they can get really optimized but are definately meant for support in a group.

[@BLynn]

Always seemed like the bard's subclass should have been called tropes instead of colleges.

[@DaDunge]

48:15 They're not now either. Our party is a battle master fighter a lore bard and and Alchemist artificer and basically the only one who's useful in combat is the fighter. I play the artificer and my job in combat is basically to keep people away from the bard while the fighter destroys the enemy.

[@Dack.howaboutyou]

Keeping in mind that that is /your/ party; /your/ bard/fighter/artificer, at whatever level and however your GM runs things. Others could have quite a different experience. Watched Land Between Two Rivers here on WebDM? it was a pleasure to behold most moments of that entire campaign. Lindy plays an amazing bard that never seemed to need much help, though she could be invaluable in almost any situation. All the players had plenty of, and roughly equal number of great shining moments. Grant Ellis didn't completely steal the show, but was his usual chaos goblin (quite literally in some ways) of the style only he can seem to get away with, [while remaining lovable & hilarious,] so easily, and J.D.'s example of how to GM a streamed game with calm competence was truly a rare treat (especially for such a diverse group of personalities playing characters doing their best while delving into a very non-standard campaign world).

[@Dack.howaboutyou]

Strictly speaking from armchair theoretician standpoint, it appears that like bards, there can be/are many different types of artificers. I can see why the comparison was made as they both come across on paper as /extremely versatile/... [to the point that i might even see them of being capable of some of the largest cases of power creep at this point, but we can argue that point separately] and built with the intent, at the right level(s), not just a sort of watered down, jack-of-all-trades-style versatility but a quite strong "generic hero" that can practically do-it-all (depending on your build, setting, GM permissions, play style, & all that, of course).

[@DaDunge]

@@Dack.howaboutyou True you can definatly build a bard that is good in combat at least if you use your magical secrets Alchemist artificer however are fairly weak in combat but not as weak as this bard that's in my party. He's optimized for other things I guess.

[@DaDunge]

@@Dack.howaboutyou No artificers simply lack offensive spells outside of cantrips on their class list and they get very few cantrip choices. They have got some on their subclass lists but that differs a lot between subclasses. Battlesmiths who can attack with Int and Artillerists who get s decent subclass spelllist are fine in combat but Alchemists and armourers are worse off. The only broken thing I have seen dome with artificers is broken high AC which is pointless if the DM builds more intresting encounters than just a fight in the dirt.

[@codyschulte9649]

As a forever DM literally every chance I've gotten since I've started DMing to play a PC, I've picked a Bard to play, as a DM I just see so many groups have like focused characters on 1 thing and making that 1 thing amazing, so whenever I'm a player I wanna fulfill the support roll, and I feel the Bard is the best support class in DnD, specially at higher levels, a D12 to any D20 roll has a tremendous impact lol but as a whole Bard's just have the toolbox that makes them a better support than the other full casters PS I played the degenerate bard and was eventually 18 Eloquence and 2 Divination Wizard, talk about rigged, the DM didn't know what hit them "actually before you roll their saving throw is a 4 and look at that I rolled a 8 on the D12 so their save is -4 + their modifier" the terror on the DMs face 😈

[@DaDunge]

7:11 Thats cool but the wizard doesn't fulfill that either. Because you get so freaking many spells when you level that you never need to find spells you always will have the spells you really want from levelling.

[@Dack.howaboutyou]

Yup, and that's why i suggested something of a solution to just that issue in the comments of the recent Wizards class live chat. Basically, if your group is up for a more difficult style of play, reduce the freely given stuff beyond a certain level/point, so that most arcane casters, wizards especially, will have a solid motivation to go around seeking spells (and GMs to give opportunities to find them, along with parties being on board with aiding in quests/missions/etc. that might be directly or at least partially aimed at the goal of finding the wizard 'MO-POW' -i mean more spells :D)

[@DaDunge]

@@Dack.howaboutyou I would halve the number of spells wizards gain by levelling and not allow them to take spells above 5th level from levelling. I would compensate by allowing the subclasses to copy spells from their spell school even if they're not wizard spells.

[@Dack.howaboutyou]

@@DaDunge That's more or less what i was thinking... though that's assuming a college-specialist and i think i favor a generalist wizard spell list being able to take any spell from anywhere, or maybe even college-specialized wizards too, but perhaps they absolutely must get the proper spell focus or exact components for those spells. Maybe even requiring specialized training in addition; could be fun part of the party mission/quest, or just some kind of "downtime activity"/sidequest-run-with-just-the-DM... depending what your group feels like doing. ;)

[@SeanFranchise]

33:12 "I just don't want to put that on a DM" 🙏

[@Dack.howaboutyou]

I liked how he amended it somewhat later to "i'd need the right DM to play a bard in 5e". This gives me hope to see it someday... :D

[@SeanFranchise]

@@Dack.howaboutyou I'm lucky enough to be playing such a bard right now and it's fantastic. Shout-out to DM Chris if you're out there! The right group is everything.

[@DaDunge]

22:00 Light? An artificer is just a half caster. If you allow them to overlap the artificer will seem like the lightweight.

[@DaDunge]

2:45 I preferred the bard as a half caster.

[@Dack.howaboutyou]

it seems like with GM/session-zero-approval you could play it that way easily enough in 5e now... especially what with Tasha's encouragement to customize things. :)

[@gamingat3099]

Thanks JIm! I needed this while prepping for my game tomorrow

[@ogrejehosephatt37]

For me, the College of Creation helped solidify it for me-- Bards use creativity and evoke emotions, otherwise known as "art", to create. In my games, I broaden what an "instrument" is: singing, dancing, painting, juggling, stand-up comedy, practical illusions, etc. Furthermore, I allow bards to cast a spell by preforming with an instrument they're proficient in, which ignores the components for that spell (unless it has a material component with a cost). I feel like this is what the game is trying to do by allowing the bard use their instrument as a focus, but I think it's lame because all it requires is to have the player touch it.

[@deamon506]

37:00 bookmark

[@CitanulsPumpkin]

There was a lot of talk in the live chat about non cha bards and warlocks... just wanted to clear up a few terms that were used wrong. A low int character is ignorant. They don't know stuff, and the stuff they know they don't always process it correctly. Int is the stat that lets you know how a thing works the way it does. A low wis character is clueless or absent minded. They don't know why the world or people act the way they do. If they have high enough int they can spot "cause and effect" from time to time, but they can't spot a liar or trickster in the act. Charisma is force of personality. A low cha character is unlikable, aggravating, annoying, or just plain gross. People won't willingly associate with low cha characters. A bard is a high Charisma character because the way they work magic is intrinsically tied to making all eyes lock on them. They make a show of their magic. And they have the training to back up the areas their spells can't. A warlock is a high Charisma character because they are a mortal with so much personal magnetism that an immortal being decided they wanted the mortal tied to them for the rest of that mortal's existence. They couldn't study to gain power. The power isn't in their blood. They might know an instrument or two, but they don't have the extensive bard training. And they can't simply sit under a tree or in a church until the gods, nature, or the magic of the universe just flows into them. The warlock makes a deal they shouldn't have and wouldn't have if they had other options. They get by on Charisma and it gets them in over their head. The class isn't a researcher, student, or priest. They're a fool. Edit: and if you really want to play a class that can swap out any main stat go play pathfinder. There's a system in that game for doing that becuase the designers fundamentally don't understand what the 6 main stats mean in terms if the setting/lore.

[@geoffdewitt6845]

This is a good breakdown of the ability scores and what they mean. However, I feel like there's inherently some value in letting people play out-of-the box character concepts. Using Int-based bard to lean into the jack-of-all-trades feel of the bard, representing someone who can gain familiarity with a given skill set (including magic) relatively quickly. This broadens my ability to play a cool generalist arcanist without necessarily leaning on wizard.

[@CitanulsPumpkin]

@@geoffdewitt6845 if you're gonna play outside the box then actually play outside the box. Pick a mainstat that fits your character concept and one of the classes that already uses it. There's enough. Then take the flavor of the class and throw it out. Make an bog witch using an Artillerist artificer and have her mobile cannon be a spider golem made of drift wood. Make a diplomat assassin using an eloquence bard with no performance skill and poisoners or forgers kit tool proficiencies instead of musical instrument proficiencies. Make a retired boxer turned professor using an abjuration wizard with one of two levels of Fighter and the unarmed fighting style. There's a dozen base classes in the game in the first party books alone. You get infinitely more flavor variation from replacing the thematic fluff than you do when you try to replace the core mechanics with special little snowflake interpretations of the 6 ability scores.

[@geoffdewitt6845]

@@CitanulsPumpkin I am playing outside the box, though. I mean, I think I am? Maybe we just define box very differently. But as long as we're talking about reflavoring, all I'm doing is reflavoring my high Int score from "good with book learning and critical thought" to "fast learner who can pick up a knack or gift very quickly." That's not a "special snowflake" version of anything, that's just a different kind of intelligence. The reason this matters is because I want the mechanics to reinforce the fiction. If I'm flavoring my PC as quick on the uptake, but not an academician, I don't want to have to carry around a book from which I memorize my spells. An Int-based bard works better for that.

[@CitanulsPumpkin]

@@geoffdewitt6845 to be fair, most of what I saw in the live chat was just people proving they didn't know the difference between Int and Wis. But your "fast learner who gets by picking up a few tricks" deffinition is still a Cha main stat character. You've described the guy who knew enough so he tested extremely well and peaked in high school, but then when he hit the real world he realized his Int was mediocre at best. That's a warlock, sorcerer, bard, or paladin. A cha caster. Not an int caster.

[@geoffdewitt6845]

@@CitanulsPumpkin My dear Pumpkin, you seem intent on reading stuff into the character that isn't there. I never said they peaked early, and I certainly never said they "get by" picking up a few tricks. I said they were someone who can pick up a knack very quickly. They are curious without being obsessive, and rather than deep knowledge of a single field (magic, as is the case with wizards), they develop a broad base of knowledge by picking up knowledge and heuristics. Golly gee, that sounds like it fits with someone who gets Magical Secrets, no? And again, all we're doing is reflavoring Intelligence. Not a problem at all. Edit: Can I ask why this is so important to you? Like, why is this where you're drawing the line at?