D&D COMBAT House Rules: Grids vs. No Grids

[@BobWorldBuilder]

🔴 DELVE! Now Live on Kickstarter: www.kickstarter.com/projects/bobworldbuilder/delve-5e-shadowdark?ref=517byk

[@lugzgaming5074]

Ahh, that's why you've flip flopped to being so pro WotC and D&D Beyond...you're peddling your own book and you see other devs getting that sweet sweet WotC money, so you're doing your best to get in on the racket. You should delete your past videos where you pretended to care about the disgusting things WotC has done, because you clearly don't care, you only pretended to care for clicks.

[@AJHaydenTV]

@@lugzgaming5074 Pro WotC? What are you on about? Bob just calls it like he sees it. WotC sucks, but they've also got some good products. We all love the game, or we wouldn't be here.

[@gsfjohndoe]

While we play pathfinder, we started out theatre of the mind. But it basically bogs the session down with constant questions of "can I see X?", "how many enemies can I catch in my fireball?", "how far am I from Y?" because the truth is only the GM has an accurate mental image of the battlefield. Now that we play with a map, all those questions can just be answered by players looking at the map, and everyone shares the same model of the battlefield. This then also allows us to employ more clever tactics and strategy. I would never go back.

[@foldionepapyrus3441]

Going to depend so much on the DM in theatre of the Mind style games, if they are exceptionally good at setting the scene, permissive/easy going enough to allow for that fireball/cone of cold, movement etc to work sensibly without excessive precision so you can hit the targets you'd want and not the ally most of the time etc then a grid or map of any sort really isn't that required, and it just works great and flows way quicker than with a map. The players don't need to stop and ask or care about the minutiae, and already have a good picture of the setup - so who cares if I might be 35' not 30 so can't techincally get in range. Also depends a bit on the players and their choices - for instance the 5E monk is just hopeless in theatre of the mind, the one superpower they have or enormous mobility really only works well when distances are well defined. And some people can't really visualise the space no matter how good a description (some people's brains just don't work that way) so for a group with folks like that its not a good choice. Nothing wrong with either style, and I have as DM frequently mixed and matched inside the same campaign and session even - when its a serious tactical problem across complex terrain a map or three just helps keep everyone on the same page so well it is really worth it, but many encounters won't need that at all - your grassy field has no line of sight issue, trivial movement, little to no cover etc.

[@klauskeller6380]

In my experience its actually the map that bogs the game down with a minute of pushing a fireball template around to just hit everything you want when in theatre of the mind the dm just can say yeah you hit all

[@bladeRoller]

​@@foldionepapyrus3441 most battles a don't take place on a grassy field.

[@randomchick1234]

I have an appalling memory and struggle to visualise stuff, so theatre of the mind definitely bogs me way down because I have to ask the DM to repeat things constantly. Bare minimum I need an abstract map with vague positioning.

[@foldionepapyrus3441]

@@bladeRoller But plenty do happen in similarly simple locations, be that an open courtyard, narrow/wide corridor, in a spiral staircase, or atop a cliff edge etc.

[@dziooooo]

My favorite explanation of ranges comes from Mothership - it reinforces the vibe of Alien-style sci-fi horror, by listing: - adjacent (it can touch you) - close (it can get to you) - long (you can shoot it) - out of range (you can hear them scream)

[@oscargarciahinde4247]

Big fights that are central to the plot are played on a grid. Small fights are played theatre of the mind in a "close, near, far" style.

[@kolardgreene3096]

I play big fights on a map but not gridded. Small fights are theater of the mind like you said

[@pedroportella9629]

Share the same way of play. I like the fact that, besides acting, we can play something like a chess now and then. Strategy thinking, house rules to improve action economy system, etc. But you are right about small fights, they are for the players egos(in the good way), not a real game changer or a real chalange, just a cool scene, with cool characters, fucking up some bad guys.

[@JustBuyTheWaywardsRealms]

or you can be crazy and do all the map in talespire even if it just for shopping(i'm doing that for my warhammer campaign)

[@edmundthearchwizard]

Yeah I do this too

[@missa2855]

In my group, it's a whiteboard and going "aaarh, I guess that's about 30 feet."

[@NemoOhd20]

Close, near, far

[@trombaritone86]

That's how my original group did it. Nowadays, my group plays with grids, but there was something nice and simple about just making a judgment call

[@jamesa8619]

Gelatinous cube: the only creature that adapted to the evolutionary niche of a 1"x1" grid.

[@satori2890]

Even before Legos oooy

[@Enfors]

You could also have included hexes. I sometimes seamlessly replace the square grid on battlemaps with hexes of roughly the same size. Works wonders, especially outdoors where there are no 90 degree corners.

[@RottenRogerDM]

And hexes cover the compass directions. N, ne, E, se, S, sw, W, nw. And less monsters can surround you.

[@manfredconnor3194]

YES!!! BINGO!!! RIGHT ANSWER!!! Let's face it if you are not using a map you belong in a waldorf school and if you a are using a map but it's not a hex map, well you're just SQUARE!!!! 😅

[@drillerdev4624]

​@@manfredconnor3194 because hexagons are bestagons

[@manfredconnor3194]

@@drillerdev4624 Yessss!

[@twincast2005]

If it were just that... He covered neither hexagonal grids nor actual gridless, only tetragonal maps and abstract mislabeled as gridless. Badly titled.

[@krinkrin5982]

A map, even a gridless map, is a huge help. It allows everyone to easily visualize where everyone is, how far you can move and what's in the way. There are no arguments regarding if something is possible and no speculation. I am also notoriously bad at remembering stuff in the heat of the moment, so having a visual representation of who is being engaged with whom is a must. The advantage of a gridded vs ungridded map is the quantum nature of distance, and ease of positioning everything. No more arguments in the vein of 'you are off by quarter of an inch' that are so prevalent in competitive wargaming. On the other hand, the advantage of a gridless map is that it feels more natural and less staged, plus you can move at any angle.

[@luckyowl9191]

agreed! Grid or no grid maps just make the game a tad bit easier imo

[@tmcmurdo826]

We routinely use grids with painted miniatures, scenery, buildings, etc. All of us enjoy the hobby of making the miniatures and scenery and have quite a collection built up.

[@Scorpious187]

There are few moments in D&D that are as satisfying as watching a group of enemies align themselves in *Fireball Formation™.*

[@datDrowningFish]

8:46 the DMG has a table to help definitively determine how many enemies an area of a spell effects when not using a grid, in the Combat section of Chapter 8. It’s helped me a bunch to quickly answer “how many creatures can I hit with X” and I can easily control the pace of combat by adding or subtracting from the total, or offering to hit more enemies if the caster also hits an ally (the melee characters unironically love this).

[@McHobotheBobo]

Masochism is a key aspect of melee/tank roles

[@arcticbanana66]

I remember one time about 10-15 years ago I was playing in a Pathfinder game at the local game store, and the DM mentioned he hoped we didn't get into any combat that session because he forgot to bring his dry-erase grid mat. I pointed out that we were all tabletop wargamers with years of experience with Warhammer, WarmaHordes, Infinity, etc. and were all well familiar with using a tape measure instead of squares to measure distances and area effects. We still didn't end up in any combat that day, but it blew the DM's and a couple of the player's minds that we wouldn't really _need_ a grid.

[@robertkendzie3]

Miniatures are one of my favorite parts of the hobby, so I use them for play by default. I also use dungeons terrain and tiny furniture, or wargame terrain for overland adventures. However, I don't always use a grid- we often go old school with tape measures (1"=5'), which is faster and more convenient than counting squares.

[@mrmastaofdesasta6994]

I think the main reason that the grid variant rule is accepted as the default by many people is that the other rules actively encourage/require it to function. Take simple movement for example, it is defined in feet. The most common speed is 30 feet per round, which would be fine on its own, but then there are variants, such as races that can move 35 or 25 feet, and abilities that give similarly small increases. If speed was defined as a simple distance unit (e.g. the enemy is "one movement" away from you) it would be easily possible to run games in a theatre of the mind setting. You could say "You have to move twice in order to arrive where the enemy is" or stuff like that, assuming that one movement is 30 feet. But then, how do you handle dwarves. If you tell everyone else that the enemy is exactly one movement away, you'd need to tell that player the enemy is 1.2 movements away and that is just weird. What it comes down to is that the small differences in speed are very impractical in theatre of the mind play. Ignoring them makes certain traits irrelevant, and making them relevant can quickly turn into singling out the slow player. And it is the same for spell effects. The level of detail in spell descriptions is cool for playing on a grid, but impractical in theatre of the mind, since knowing all the details naturally makes the players want to strategize in detail which is just not easily possible. TLDR; If the rules of DnD where designed to be less detailed and more intuitive, it would be much easier to get away from the idea that playing on a grid is the norm. E.g. define distances in terms of multiples of one "movement", or defining discrete sizes for spell effects like for creature size. ("I cast a huge fireball into the small room" is just much easier to describe as "I cast a 20 foot radius fireball into the room, excuse me how big is the room again? How far away are all the opponents in feet? Oh yes, I forgot, can I hit all of the opponents without hitting my allies?..."

[@007ohboy]

Yep. Stick with a grid. Theater of the mind is just lazy gameplay in my mind. DM can't be bothered to throw down a simple map with squares on it is a DM I wouldn't play with. I'm not into pure narrative play, I think skills/speed/location matter and are not to be just skipped over or handwaved.

[@nojusticenetwork9309]

​@@007ohboy that's probably the most ignorant take I've seen yet. Theater of the Mind =/= Lazy DM. The amount of preparation a DM has to do to create a campaign is varying levels of stressful, and that's before they decide if they wish to use maps or not, let alone adjustments and planning session by session. Maybe you could stand to use your imagination more in this game of make-believe instead of relying on maps.

[@datDrowningFish]

You’re kinda missing the point of movement abstraction by making a “movement” a unit itself. Using Near/Far/Very far terms, an enemy can be Far from the human cleric, requiring a move+dash to reach, but still Near for the wood elf monk, and Very Far from the halfling bard. And something can be Far for the cleric and monk, but still Very Far for the bard. Measuring 1.2 movements is not changing the process, just the scale. Granted, I do agree about how most spells and abilities care about exact distances makes Theater of the Mind more complicated. Words like “fills the room” or “creatures within reach” would easier to track when distances are not available.

[@ianbelanger7459]

This understanding of the rules is why, after years of D&D and Pathfinder, I play FATE. The rules of D&D don't require strict adherence or bookkeeping, but they certainly encourage it. A more narrative focused game system for me sidesteps a lot of issues and allows for a more universal action resolution system regardless of the type of interaction.

[@007ohboy]

@nojusticenetwork9309 I DM, git good, noob. If you are that stressed out, stop playing DnD and go play Candyland. Oh right, it has a board/grid so it might also stress you out.

[@raffaeleparise6321]

Friendly reminder that many wargames and skirmish games use gridless combat that is also very tactical! It's just a matter of measuring distances with a ruler or tape measure

[@adamstewart5188]

Even with a grid, I find it easier to measure distances and movement with a ruler or tape measure than counting squares, especially when getting into diagonals.

[@CJWproductions]

VTTs actually make this way easier, with the ability to place templates and lines on the play space without risking knocking over the miniatures.

[@Stray_GM]

Totally. I run DnD like this because I love making terrain of all sorts, so instead of counting squares, we just measure out on rulers. At first my players were iffy but I was like "sorry, I'm not going to ruin this build by putting a grid on it." Lol

[@johnhume1]

It's bizarre to me that there aren't more people playing this way. The grid sucks. If you want precise and tactical, this is the way.

[@twincast2005]

​@@johnhume1I blame most RPG writers actively glossing over the wargame origin and many even sneering at it and therefore most RPG players not being aware of options outside boardgame grids and "roleplay, not rollplay" snobs' abstract TotM.

[@patricktorpey916]

I use a lot of homemade terrain without grid, so I made a 2 foot flexible folding ruler with foot measurement side by side with square count. Ditching the grid and measuring directly when needed meant no hem hawing over targeting something airborn or figuring out diagonal movement

[@satori2890]

I use a school ruler in Shadow Dark but Kelsey was a Teacher😮

[@SteveMichael]

Oh man this takes me back like 35 years. We started with theater of the mind and played D&D. It was fun of course and we were young teenage boys with overpowered characters fighting overpowered monsters and going in crazy dungeons that make zero sense when you looked at a layout. What did we find out after playing? It took an incredible amount of time to answer this question over and over. "Where was your character?" A fireball goes off and the thief says "I wasn't in the room". He believes it but the trigger to that trap was that everyone was in the room. This happens time and time again. The thief is being honest (most of the time), as with other players. Then "if" I as a GM ever said "well who is in the room", this would sidetrack in to a long discussion and everyone would assume something bad was about to happen. Then we got grid paper and some of us opted to pick up min's. All those problems went away. We still did theater of the mind for some stuff but dungeons and stuff like that we now got to see what was going on. It was incredible! I can play a game that is theater of the mind but I know my current group would never go back to just that. Then we get in to the tactical part that you glossed over a bit. Things like cones and blasts. There will always be a discussion about it, but with grid paper that argument goes away. Oh and then there is the times when you can try and line up dudes and it works out. This is like comparing listening to a story on the radio vs watching it in a movie theater. Both are good, but most agree after time that one is better.

[@RequiemWraith]

I run all my combat on a square grid, it makes things MUCH easier to deal with as there's no need to have any kind of tape measure, you just count the number of squares you can move, and its easy to tell if something is within range for an attack or not.

[@FrozenThrog]

But on the other hand, with a tape measure you can just measure the distance while not having to count the squares. You can flip this back and forth forever. Having some wargaming experience helps with measuring tapes though.

[@RequiemWraith]

@@FrozenThrog I have wargaming experience, I'll still take the grid, it's simpler

[@bonzwah1]

how do you adjudicate aoe's? lines and cones do not play nice with square grids. and cubes and spheres have no distinction (unless you use the variant rule where diagonals cost an extra square every other square). I generally like grids more than using rulers, but the base rules for dnd 5e are written in ways that do not mesh perfectly with grids.

[@FrozenThrog]

@@RequiemWraith My point is: To each their own. Everyone finds different things simple. You know, I could even opt for something that wargamers moan about. No pre-measuring. Will the archer be within optimal range? How many will the fireball hit? Maybe it will even hit more friendly targets than intended. Seeding in some more chaos could be cool.

[@fred_derf]

@@FrozenThrog, writes _"But on the other hand, with a tape measure you can just measure the distance while not having to count the squares."_ One, two, three, four... OMG I can't handle all this counting! My brain hurts!

[@maromania7]

For me it's not about the GRID, it's about the MAP. Hex, Freeform, I don't actually care what we're using to denote distance as long as we actually ARE. In my experience theatre of the mind is frustrating. Yes, even in most systems that're designed for it, at least when dealing with things like combat. Nobody's going to have the same scene in their head leading to confusion, it leads to constant questioning every turn that could usually be solved with a glance downward, and it leaves the DM with even more to keep track of. The DMs I've seen prefer it are always either insane at multitasking and improv or NEED absolute control over everything. Usually the latter, to take our senses hostage and change things on the fly to ensure the scene goes "right."

[@hodgepodgesyntaxia2112]

I don’t find it’s that difficult to describe combat scenes that players can conceptualize without constantly asking questions. The GM just has to establish clear groups and zones for positioning and targeting. For example . There are infantry at the base of the hill. . Archers on the ridge . And a griffin riding mage flying overhead. Most adults can easily keep 3-4 distinct targets in mind without getting confused.

[@ThatGuy-TheEngineer]

@maromania, I completely agree. I've played a few theater of the mind games, and it is always so frustrating because people don't visualize things the same way. It feels like a lot of mechanics get removed in favor of the DM just BSing what sounds reasonable to them. For people to who enjoy that, more power to them, I recognize having good maps can be a pain at times. But in my experience the hassle of getting a good map pales in comparison to the struggle of several players all clamoring over one another with conflicting ideas of what's going on and what's reasonable. I do enjoy gridless maps for a smoother, more natural-feeling sense of motion. But if the choice is grid or theater of the mind, I choose grid every day of the week.

[@88Grabarz]

Default in my games is PDM's UDT, but with small adjustment. Middle circle is divided into 4 zones and outside one into 8. Movement from zone to zone and from circle to circle takes usually one turn of running.

[@Jerthanis]

My issue with gridless play is constantly, and I mean CONSTANTLY having to ask and answer questions about range and positioning. "Am I close enough to this bugbear? Yes. Can I get around the bugbear to the goblin shaman behind him? No. Can I leap over this gorge? What is your character's strength?...14? Not quite. How wide is this bridge anyway? 15 feet wide. Can I see around the pillar here to the goblin shaman there? No, but if you move to the side a little you can. Wait, back up... when that bugbear moved to this point from this point, did he pass through my reach? Shouldn't I have been able to attack them? Yes, roll your attack. Oh, you hit him? And you have Sentinel, so he shouldn't have been able to get that hit on the mage. Oh, shoot, let's rewind." Just put it on a grid, they can see just by looking the answer to all those questions. A cheap reusable battlemap is $20, and for the people who are using paper for maps anyway, parchment paper is like, $3 for a roll, comes with 1" segments highlighted, and you can draw on it to your heart's content with a built in exact scale. My issue with systems with highly abstract movement of many of the other games you talk about is the worthlessness of movement abilities in those systems. If I'm entirely in the mind, and it's just an action to change distance from an enemy, there's no real design space for fun teleportation powers unless they're just a bonus to attack with a different flavor if it lets me get bonus hit or damage chance from the 'surprise' of my sudden change of position or whatever. If I'm entirely theatre of the mind, and the DM has described two enemies at Medium Range shooting guns at me, and I move to be adjacent to one, questions must be answered about whether I'm now at Close Range with the other shooter, or if he was in a 90+ degree different position from my original place and the first shooter, and now I'm actually at Long range from the second shooter. Again, answered INSTANTLY on a grid, without having to pick up any object and hold it up to the map to compare. I cannot comprehend why anyone would not want a grid to at least be present on a map, even if it wasn't snap-to-grid for positioning.

[@NemoOhd20]

You try playing D&D sometime. Warcraft perverted the game, and it isnt even a good version of warcraft.

[@mikeharvey7966]

The mental load required to hold a complex, dynamic combat in mind can be a lot for many players and DMs - especially neurodivergent folk. I can get down with theatre if the mind to resolve small or low-stakes combat-adjacent conflict (although I’m also happy to further abstract it into part of a skill challenge). For 5e dnd combat, having a visual map with countable-at-a-glance units of distance ready is a vital tool for me on either side of the screen. Cuts out ambiguities and inconsistencies, and cuts way down on time and energy with clarifying questions as you demonstrated. As a DM, the gridded map helps me offload a lot of logistical processing to something all of my players can look at and understand, which gives me more capacity to run combat in a more engaging and dynamic fashion.

[@Jerthanis]

@@NemoOhd20 I don't understand what you're talking about. Grid combat has existed in D&D more or less in its current form since mid-2e, 1995, 9 years before WoW first existed, 4 years before Everquest first existed. Every element of modern D&D that is accused of being lifted from an MMO was in D&D first, and early MMOs were inspired by those elements, not the other way around. Unless you literally mean Warcraft 1: Orcs Versus Humans the RTS is what perverted D&D. And anyway, my complaints are about the required negotiation of description and abstract and inexact mapping. I do not understand how some theoretical version of D&D uncorrupted by Warcraft would have been better in this respect. You either have a battlemap on a grid, or you have the problem of taking extra time with clarifying questions as to terrain, range, positioning, and so on. What non-map, non-grid, tool existed in uncorrupted D&D that addresses these issues?

[@twincast2005]

I agree with your whole comment except for the conflating of gridless with abstract (also present in the video). Measuring tapes/sticks take barely more time than counting squares/hexes does.

[@Jerthanis]

@@twincast2005 My experience in tabletop wargaming runs very much counter to that. I will see a single movement of a single unit take 5ish minutes as the ruler comes out and the player measures and remeasures, calculates distance from the place they intend to move to and rechoose a destination when they realize they can't get exactly where they would like to be, only to start the process of measuring all over again with a new destination in mind, each time gingerly laying down the ruler with great care so as not to accidentally nudge their minis. When you've got a grid, you know exactly where your mini started, so even if you accidentally nudge it, you didn't screw up your movement, and you can see every single place your mini can end up without touching anything or holding up any objects, having to stand, move around, anything. Turns take long enough without ANYTHING delaying people's turns, so again, I simply cannot understand why you wouldn't want a grid to at least be present if it's at all an option.

[@Gopher86]

Loving the fact that you're bringing more attention to other games than 5e with more and more of your videos. And the fact about the Gelatinous Cube being as wide as a narrow corridor in old-school dungeons was a real great piece of trivia.

[@DUNGEONCRAFT1]

Great video! Now you need some Ultimate Dungeon Terrain!!!

[@juliegolick]

Most of my current groups use theatre of the mind, mostly because we enjoy more narrative play. As you said, it mostly comes down to trust between the GM and players. "Hey, GM, can I catch all the goblins with a surprise fireball?" "Let's say you can catch all but the two nearest the door, who are gonna start bolting further down the hallway for reinforcements." "Oh, well - there's more fireballs where that came from. Eat flame, gobbos!"

[@ecg22201]

When I first started running in middle school, everything was theater of the mind. I would draw dungeons out on grid paper, but typically that was for my own reference so I knew what was happening. Then I began putting 1 inch grid paper inside of plastic sheet holders, using a dry erase marker to draw combat maps on. In my "third stage" of map making I recently purchased a 250 ft long roll of 1 in grid paper, and every week I cut out a couple large sections and draw the maps on there in colored pencil. That has definitely worked the best for me, as I can draw squares with lines through them to indicate difficult terrain, or change colors for things like water, as well as draw physical barriers/walls. I think the grid paper works best for me because it's a definite space where I know how far the character can get. Not saying it's more difficult to run without a grid, I just think it's harder to keep to scale.

[@Falruk]

Using a VTT, I use grids where every other diagonal costs 10 ft movement, which the vtt calculates for you, so nobody needs to keep track of it.

[@jdet27]

Great vid! I think you missed a couple tricks for gridless maps. The first one is Professor DM’s Ultimate Dungeon Terrain which uses zones to indicate melee/range. The other is using rulers on gridless terrain. If and inch is 5 feet, you can literally move in any direction you want 6 inches from your current position

[@SteveSwannJr]

Agreed! I love the gridded shirt you wore over the gridless tshirt too!

[@Archy_The-Wizard]

I love playing casters, and looking at a battlemap like I'm looking at a chess board. It's one of the main appeals of the game for me. I don't care what kind of measurement you use (grid, hex, gridless, ...) as long as it's a clear measurement that I can clearly see and comprehend. My biggest issue with theater of the mind is that what my character can do is no longer limited by the world, but instead becomes limited by what the DM will allow, and a victory that comes from convincing god to let me add another goblin in the radius of my fireball doesn't feel like a victory to me. If anything it intensifies arguing. To me a map with measurement is the difference between being able to plan things in advance or not. If I want to be 60ft away from an enemy, 65ft away from the caster next to him, without walking off the side of the bridge, but being fine standing on the railing if I have two and still know how much movement I have left afterwards. I want to be able to calculate that myself during other people's turn, not have to wait for my turn so that I can ask 30 questions and try to "make a case" for the actions I was planning on taking.

[@simontmn]

Back in the day running 1e ADnD I would typically roll 6d6 to see how many goblins the fireball caught. Nowadays we tend to think of every thing frozen in time on a grid but back then the assumption was the battlefield was a chaotic and fluid environment.

[@McHobotheBobo]

I agree, accurate descriptions are critical to theater of the mind and what we might call "semi-grid" play

[@McHobotheBobo]

​@@simontmnYeah rolling some dice is often a solid way to resolve the matter of AoE

[@bi-polarbear8145]

Using a grid makes things so much easier. When I make terrain it is easy to just include tiles on floors, or floorboards that equal 2 squares, or rocks that conveniently have 10 foot flat perches....etc. I also use the rule of cool, stretch whats allowable every once and a while to allow players to live out the fantasy.

[@matthewcochran2419]

During combat it is not the grid slowing us down, but it’s everyone relearning their characters every turn that slow us down… 😂

[@manfredconnor3194]

Wait til you and your players are over 50. It gets worse!

[@commonweakness9060]

Gridless map FTW! Less rules, less counting, and quicker play. Thanks for the video.

[@manfredconnor3194]

Sure because my halfling can move just as far as your giant, right? No. Sorry. FAIL!

[@garrettwhite3922]

​@@manfredconnor3194 gridless doesn't mean measureless... just that you don't have to move 10 feet to be in a space 6 feet diagonally.

[@kolardgreene3096]

@@manfredconnor3194 You don't need a grid to figure that out, though...

[@manfredconnor3194]

@@garrettwhite3922 It falls apart, if there is any complexity at all. You need hexes to keep thing straight. Besides, why wouldn't 😵‍💫 FNORD 😵‍💫 YOU WANT TO USE HEXES? 😵‍💫 FNORD 😵‍💫 . . . ~ come on garrett ~ . . . ~ 😵‍💫 you know you want to use the hexes 😵‍💫 ~ . . . the hexes are your friend 😵‍💫~ . . . we all need friends garrett ~ 😵‍💫 ~ if you want, you can stay in your old totm ~ 🫥🫥🫥🫥🫥🫥🫥 OR you could move NOW to the wonderful world of hexmaps! 😵‍💫 Hexes are cute and zeitgeisty! Hexes are cool! 😎 Hexes are fun! Hexes love you garrett. You would not want to hurt their feeling would you? FNORD!

[@manfredconnor3194]

@@kolardgreene3096 You are right! You don't need a grid YOU WANT A HEXMAP! Hexes are lovely. Hexes are fun! You haven't lived until you've got one! Yaaaaaay hexes!!!! 😅

[@jeremydurdil556]

I run BECMI (since 87) and use theater of the mind. These days, I use a dry erase board without any grid for my encounters. Sounds like you started playing with one of my compatriots. Great stuff as usual. Thanks Bob and congrats on your contribution to Mr Welch’s 50th D&D birthday video. BECMI Forever! Long Live King Elmore!!

[@lwriker1304]

We start with gridded maps. But, we also use colored sticks (green-normal, red-disadvantage) to measure ranged attacks. Sticks are also used for angled movement and running. So the answer is: we use both.

[@razi0306]

I love Bob's content so much. Whenever the flute comes in I'm out of breath with laughter

[@9HPRuneScape]

I really like the Dead End Snail concept from Delve! - Snailed it! 🐌

[@brokenmeats5928]

I love ALL Bob World Builder videos!

[@drillerdev4624]

Surely you mean Professor WB?

[@bsabruzzo]

Back when I started playing d&d back in 84 they really pushed the grid dungeons 10/10 squares and really encouraged us to buy a lot of graph paper to do all that stuff. Stopped playing d&d for a while but started playing HeroClix in the early 2000s and they had a one and a half inch grid so that made it easier like chess with superheroes. In fact when I came back to d&d in 2018 I used my HeroClix figures which didn't fit because they were a bit too large

[@PhilC_PhD]

Since I play exclusively OSR, I use a mixture of theater of the mind and gridless maps. This is for both my in person and online games. From. My experience running 5e for a 3 year long campaign and leaving it for Shadowdark, OSE, and even DCC, the OSR games require abstract, imaginative, creative thinking that with a grid will always tell the player to think within those confines. I have seen much more outside the box thinking without the grids and it's just so much easier.

[@rongriffis]

I'm happy for anyone who plays with a group who enjoys exclusively Theatre of the Mind, but that is not anyone I have ever played with. Way back in 1981 playing AD&D we used grids. In fact we quickly changed from square to hex grids because diagonal movement was easier to measure. All the games I've played since have used grids except for very simple encounters -- "You are ambushed by two goblin archers..." The only exception is my recent flirtation with Mothership, which uses adjective distances; close, near, etc. Even then, I started using a grid at players' request because there was too much debate and confusion about positioning. Other comments here have gone into detail about such discussions/debates/arguments and I completely agree. Again, if Bob or anyone else plays with a group which is so chill that they are cool with Theatre of the Mind for any and all situations then I am very happy for you! I admit it would certainly save money and leave more room on the table for pizza. But that's just not the way most players I know like to roll. ;)

[@carolgottlieb1271]

I've been playing TTRPGs since 1997, been part of at least a dozen groups, and played close to a hundred campaigns and one-shots of various games (D&D, BESM, Rifts, Star Wars, Vampire the Masquerade, etc...) I've played games with grids, hexes, and theater of the mind (sometimes with an abstract map), but not a single game with "gridless, but measured" combat.

[@rovideo3771]

i find physical terrain really good when you make it yourself out of cardboard and stuff. It’s fairly easy to make and when you paint it up it looks really nice. And it’s mostly free if you already have paint and hot glue.

[@kormoranvogel1714]

As i understand it, DnD is intended to be played without a grid, but with a ruler or measuring tape.

[@Ezullof]

A grid is just a way to facilitate measures. There's only very few instances for which there would be a practical difference between using a grid and using a ruler.

[@onlythatonetime]

Love the outdoors thing Bob!

[@RottenRogerDM]

Back in 1E we used square or hex grids depending on who brought the battle map that night. Theatre of the Mind depends on the person. So people could not handle Theatre. I would like to see more dry erase hex maps.

[@mandisaw]

Classic dry-erase battlemat has squares on one side, hex on the other. Pretty sure Chessex has the go-to, but there are probably others.

[@GlenFinney]

Dude I love the wall snail! 🐌 Makes me even happier that I backed DELVE!

[@FrenchyMcToast]

Every map in every official adventure I've seen has a grid printed over it. That's a pretty inflexable way to print maps if it's an optional rule.

[@camguarino8669]

Girdles with a map. I got some cheap unpainted minis that are the race of each of my players and most are their class or something that is close to what they picture their character looking like. I use colored tokens for enemy NPCs and extra minis for friendly NPCs so my party remembers they are there. I try to get minis for bosses or will use very distinct tokens for bosses. I really like using the abstract map idea since I can sprinkle in things that can change the battle flow quite easily such as a fallen tree or fire trap etc

[@eyflfla]

I like that you've been doing outdoor videos, subtly encouraging people to go outside more.

[@dvssicarius]

Awesome and timely video! I needed this reassurance to stay strong and not regress back to gridded play, just because it lets me build pretty maps, which is a special interest of mine. My first experience playing D&D was my friend indoctrinating me into the hobby via the 10’ gridded dungeon map and descriptions from the 1st Ed DM’s Guide. I was hooked on the shared imaginative space, and for me the grid wasn’t a preference, it was just “the way it was played” (the default). It wasn’t until I played with a group that used AoO and the 5-ft step in 3.5 Ed that I started to get frustrated with tactical, gridded combat. As a player or DM, 5 ft step and AoO and stopping at the limit of your move speed only to find your target still juuuust out of reach at the end of your turn, was frustrating. It began to really feel irritatingly limited to me, shoving me “in a box” so to speak (pun intended). I’m a fan of maps and map making, as I said - and I love finding cool maps online that fit my concept for a scene. I also really enjoy making maps but there’s no denying with a finite amount of time to spend on my hobbies, procuring or making maps takes time away from the table. Keep up the great videos!

[@hrayz]

Back in my AD&D 2nd Ed days, theater of the mind, or simple position references (ie: "these d6 dice are the enemies and the d8s are the party") was enough. No flanking, no attacks of opportunity, occasionally "me, the fighter, blocks the orc from getting near the wizard". Simple and fast.

[@some1337dude1]

If you like grid-less maps but still want scaled distances you can quickly measure you could give the PCs a length of string with a two pushpins/toothpicks at each end representing a commonly used distance like 30ft for movement. And that could be used for straight lines, movement around objects, and radiuses of a circle

[@shallendor]

Our Pathfinder 1E and Starfinder 1E games use a grid! I didn't use a grid for my first 8 years of gaming, but when i joined a group after being kicked out of the Navy in 1990 for a blood disorder, they used a grid to help a couple of players that needed a grid to be able is visualize the combat!

[@74gould]

Great video! I’ve played D&D since the ‘80s and we’ve always been mostly theater of the mind, only bringing out grids & minis for big battles/boss fight type stuff.

[@TheLyricalCleric]

I play reverse gridless now: instead of gridding out a whole room, I have index cards be representative of a room or an area in a dungeon. I don’t sketch out anything, in fact my info for the room is often on the back of the index card (because it’s easier to write on during the day). When I have a big combat, I have obstacles or lanes of movement on index cards, so “the AC ductwork” that allows a player to get around without being seen is not actually written down, but just an index card saying “AC ductwork.” When a player is in the ducts, I have them put their mini-figurine in the ducts. We often use LEGO minifigs alongside DnD minis, makes it more fun to customize a character. So no drawing of squiggly lines, no time spent mapping out a whole corridor or a series of obstacles. I put the cards down and tell my players to run for cover! (We often do modern-style games with guns, so ranged combat is a huge obstacle and players need to see sight lines and evade enemy fire.

[@hrayz]

Since 2020 I've mostly played D&D on-line (we know why that started...) 📈The map came with grids, square or hex, and even did the diagonal calculations for us. Easy to use. ♦However, once in a while I turn the grid feature off and players can move naturally. It surprises them, but leaves tactics and position completely open. I like the confused (but usually happy) sounds they make.

[@rafaelbordoni516]

I always played on a laminated sheet of A3 paper with a grid printed on it, using a marker to draw on it and easily wipe away. Never had real minis, we used pieces of cardboard or just drew on it. It's pretty much all the advantages of an abstract map that you listed plus the grid for measuring distances.

[@Arkenald]

You seem be be combining gridless map and abstracted maps into the same category. With gridless there is should an assumption that you're going to measure distance with the Cartesian coordinate system, just without the rounding of distance to a uniformed grid. Many popular Tabletop Skirmish/Wargames for instance are girdless, but still very much use defined measurements for distances. DnD5e are writes in defined measurements. Not in abstract terms that we see in Shadowdark of "near" or "far".

[@jyabriel08]

We mostly use grids for combat maps. Sometimes, we accidentally get into a fight on a gridless map. I dont care because I use the ruler. I wouldn't like theater of the mind if I was a skirmisher that took mobile or was a rogue, monk or barbarian.

[@dallinadams9422]

Absolutely agree. It's very annoying having to state each turn, I charge, I move back. Plus a lot of DMs will kind of just ignore distances and movement speeds and just assume that everyone is within melee range. It's also nice starting further away from the enemy and not super close within 30 ft. It just opens up so much more options for tactics with the players.

[@TitterpigRancher]

OMIGOSH, even if I didn't love everything Bob World Builder makes, that 1.5 seconds of Minecraft D&D got such a huge laugh out of me that i would've had to like this video regardless.

[@boxxie]

Good video! A lot of the DCC stuff does have maps and grids included and i like to use them but with some abstraction. I am not a fan of flanking and opportunity attacks but like to use them when it feels natural. VTT have made maps so easy. Last in person game I used a blank flip-mat and paper minis to great success.

[@JanHoos]

Nice video! I think for the type of players in my groups, having a map with grids is needed for combat to have things move smoothly. One thing I did experience last session was when I used a hand-drawn colored map instead of a fancy Dungeon Alchemist map, my own imagination of a location was doing a lot more for me during the session. :-)

[@FigureFan_Pierce]

Great video as always! I certainly used to use grids back in 3.5 and Pathfinder, but since getting back into RPGs around 2019, they've been mostly theater of the mind. I'm currently playing D&D with friends on Discord plus a Kids on Bikes game in person and theater of the mind works just fine.

[@sindex]

I really like these "man on the move" out in nature videos lately. Great content, and really switches up the look and vibe. Hike on!

[@h3llb3nd3r]

My current online group uses a hexagonal grid in combat for most fights, though when the adventure started it was TOTM.

[@manfredconnor3194]

YES!!! BINGO!!! RIGHT ANSWER!!! Hexes are the future! (This message brought to you by the international soceity for the promotion of hexes! ISPH)

[@mandisaw]

@@manfredconnor3194 Are they affiliated with the Humane Explorers' Society for the Return of Universal Location Estimation (HEXSRULE)?

[@manfredconnor3194]

@@mandisaw Yessss. I think so? Well, at least they ought to be. 😁

[@colourful8778]

I really like that you've been doing lots of outside videos. Definitely feels a lot nicer and reminds me to get outside. I'm sure it's great for your mental health too

[@ThomasStell]

I use a hex mat and break the scale down to 1 meter, or 1 yard, as they are almost interchangeable at 39" (meter) or 36" (yard). The hex mat allows everyone to see who and what are located where in an encounter. My dungeons are smaller and I will draw out each room on a large hex paper (1" hexes) and plop that down as you look into or enter a room. I buy a 4ft hex or square graph tablet to draw rooms up to 40m by 30m. AMAZON sells those tablets at a reasonable price.

[@manfredconnor3194]

Yes, you are awesome!

[@metalgamer8179]

Absolutely with a grid, I started out with no-grid but as the DM I just couldn’t keep track of where everything was. My brain couldn’t keep it straight so being able to see what the layout and distance actually is was amazing

[@dantherpghero2885]

I Love ALL Bob World Builder videos! Theatre of the mind with Close/Near/Far range groups.

[@manfredconnor3194]

The world is vague and you died because that ogre was much closer than you though. PS: Switch to hex maps!

[@microhomebrew]

Been working on the mapping of my game, using "Zones." Providing a generic list of what might constitute a divide between zones, or what might be a new zone altogether...It's been really good so far, but I've played the game exclusively in theatre of the mind so far, and it hasn't been an issue (I love TotM, even in 5e). This video helped me come up with some additional information and solutions to what I want in this project, so thankyou!

[@davidhansen3805]

Low key the most wholesome channel on KZbin.

[@dustincoopermusic]

I find myself going to the squares only when certain things get disputed or need more clarification (and that's only if there is a grid on the map), otherwise I'm with you on the no-grid more trust approach. And the funny part as you kind of hint off with your approach to 5E: people would be surprised how much you can leave out (or throw out) and the game still work and be fun! I joke with people around here in the Colorado Springs (which it seems that D&D 5E rules this place) that if I ran D&D at my local game shop, they would throw me out (lol). Which is why I love running these games for kids since I can teach them my philosophy: story over rules ;-) BTW, I love your backdrop! Great video and keep being awesome!

[@jle2500]

Dude, I also left grids behind a year ago and it's been great.

[@deebzscrub]

I've always used a grid for TTRPGs. I didn't even know it was an actual rule, it was just easier than worrying about actual measurements

[@nojusticenetwork9309]

I play and run games strictly online and use gridless maps. The VTT I use, Shard Tabletop, allows me to have the best of both worlds. My players can still measure out their movement and AoE spells have tokens to see how many baddies they can hit. All that and more with the benefit of a more open interpretation of distances. Its pretty damn great. Its also fun to sometimes be cheeky in combat saying "You are just a foot to slow to catch the retreating enemy".

[@Ezullof]

I think that grid based combat is actually much better when it comes to handling cases such as "you're just out of reach". With the one DM I knew who did abstract combat, my dragonborn paladin was often out of reach for two entire turns. It was just frustrating and if I was trying to argue that I was doing nothing, they'd say "you aren't a stealthy class and the enemy isn't stupid, of course they are out of range from the heavily armed paladin". When I do grid combat and a player character needs one tile to reach an enemy, I often tell them something like "if you want, I can allow you to sprint for the last tile, but you'll have to roll a dext check to not fall" and if their roll is a success by a small margin they still get a -2 on the attack roll, or "I'll allow you do reach your enemy, but you lose your bonus action and your action has to be something very quick, like an attack". That's why I think that abstract is neat if there's not just trust, but also experience and wisdom in a group. I don't think my DM meant bad, but in the end it always feels better when the DM gives you more options that the opposite. For abstract combat to work, you need a DM and players who all agree that it's more fun when everyone has options but not complete freedom. If we start combat, most of the time the melee characters should be able to reach the enemy in one turn.

[@ianwilbanks3015]

The one way that you overlooked, which is the way I have done several campaigns to great effect is gridless but with a scale map and miniatures. My gaming group also played tabletop war games, so it made sense to us. One inch is 5 feet and you just use a measuring stick. I found it quite easy and really rewarding. It's a trade off though.

[@phillrichmond3611]

Is a square grid preferred over a hex or octagonal grid? I read somewhere where personal movement and combat took place on square grid. Larger or general movements took place on hex grid. As a draftsman I think 1" grid = 12' would have been a better measurement. Many modals can be found at this scale. great video!

[@SpiritWolf1966]

Always ready to learn something new

[@nathanaelthomas9243]

Thanks for the video! I’m going to give that style a try in my next session.

[@wyliecapp]

My groups have 2 methods. For 1 or 2 enemies in an encounter, we use theater of the mind, but 3+ enemies we use the grid.

[@erc1971erc1971]

In the words of Patrick Henry, I’ve always been a “ give me grids or give me death” kind of guy 😎

[@Web-Line_Studios]

My group originally started on an acrylic set of boards with the grid baked in, allowing me as DM to use markers to improv the map on the fly. Due to the group getting so big, we have shifted to using my tablet as our map, still allowing me simple prep but now having everything only a couple taps/swipes away. It's sped up map switches, & the group thinks it's super cool (since I try going all out on maps)

[@Birdman_LIVE]

Love this video and thought exercise. I fall into grid side because I like the aesthetic because I use miniatures and scatter terrain which I believe gives enough tangible visual aids to make it easier for the players to fill in the rest with theater of the mind.

[@Uberphish]

For my family game, we play online with a VTT, and for this most recent campaign decided to experiment with using the gridless option for our maps. It doesn't change how I _make_ those maps much since I still tend to scale things to how the grid _would_ be, but it's definitely made movement and ranges and whatnot feel a bit more freeform and engaging. People squeezing together around enemies, or having to line up differently to fully block choke points. It's also been helpful because we've got some pretty major size discrepancies in players (a Rune Knight and a player who's Tiny), so not having to ensure everyone fits properly to a grid is great.

[@noahfreeman8115]

I made maps by hand for the Phandelver campaign (at the start of the campaign). About to start a new level 1-12 dungeon crawl and I bought and printed out a Dungeon23 map set by Tomb of Salvatore. Then I drew up a series of like 12 Index Card Dungeons from Dyson Logos on 1” grids. Add an acrylic screen on top for dry eras and I’m prepped for a while and we have grids! For both of my groups!

[@blakea3323]

The DM that introduced me uses theater of the mind, with gridless combat on a whiteboard for when things get really complex.

[@IcarusGames]

I will only ever use theatre of the mind as a last resort, and always use a gridded map wherever possible for one reason; some players have aphantasia and literally cannot picture in their mind the things you are describing/the positioning of the scenario and TotM can be a nightmare for them. As soon as I learned one of my players had aphantasia and just had a flat out worse experience when we weren't using maps I've never gone back.

[@mandisaw]

This. Even without aphantasia, keeping track of 5-6 or more players, plus an equal amount of enemies, around a complex tactical environment, is a lot of cognitive load. I think most TotM tables are either running very simple combats (all of us vs one of you) or they just trust that the "GM knows best". I like my combat crunchy and tactical, and I'm too cynical to trust any GM or player that much LOL

[@manfredconnor3194]

Hexes are better than grids! 🤩

[@HiroYamamoto]

Nice ambience soundtrack

[@samchafin4623]

I've been running most of my games online, using perspective images, not top-down maps, and I think it works fine. Players get a sense of where everything is without a perfect measurement being used. In person, I will do TotM with some anchor images, or I will use wooden block toys and Jenga pieces to quickly build the terrain - again, with no grid. Works great!

[@andyrobinson6611]

We play on a grid for combat (& some exploration encounters). I enjoy painting minis and building my own tabletop scatter terrain and scenery. My players get a kick out of the crazy models I craft to help with their immersion and it is just another facet of the game and hobby to me.

[@jonathanrose5490]

I think its important to say that grid vs no grid isnt always just a preference. Some people have real difficulty holding a 3d space in their minds eye. Its important to not assume its a preference and consider a grid may be a player aid no different to the extra considerations you may take for a player with adhd, vision/hearing impairments, or other conditional needs. I love theatre of the mind but i have several players that just feel aweful. They start to feel guilty asking so many questions or even embarrassed feeling they are being problematic so they end up disengaing from the game.

[@mandisaw]

+1 for maps being accessibility aids. There's also the issue of hierarchical behavior. TotM tends to lead to a "only the DM knows" approach, where people may quietly disagree or harbor hurt-feelings when a ruling doesn't go their way. When you all can clearly see who was in range of the dragon's breath weapon, and who wasn't, everyone goes home happy, even if their character didn't 😅

[@ChadHensley]

I'm super excited about starting my upcoming Dolmenwood campaign and the lack of gridded combat (at least the way I'm going to run it) is one of the things I'm most excited about. Really want to create some Ultimate Dungeon Terrain as suggested by Professor DM if the players insist on miniatures but will likely stick with theatre of the mind. Of course, my 5E games are somewhat stuck with gridded combat for two reasons, first I love the official D&D maps from WotC and they only offer them with grids and second the players in both games are very keen on gridded combat. Great video!

[@fred_derf]

Do you know where a gridless system works to keep the strategic nature of combat? Using a VTT that constrains movement to the characters move speed (and accounts for things like difficult terrain) -- but even then, it will be using a smaller grid, just hiding it from the users.

[@dungeondr]

Here's an alternative idea: abstract grid. Rules are interpreted in terms of spaces, but the distance and time vary depending on the context. Fighting in tight quarters, make spaces and rounds 1m and 1s. Fighting in a large open battle field, make it 10m and 10s instead!

[@dungeondr]

Ooo, you covered this, awesome!

[@alarin612]

Playing with the narrative length of a round is a lot of fun. You can even have a round take a whole month while managing a kingdom. There's some precedent for this, too, in the downtime activities rules.

[@manfredconnor3194]

There are no wrong answers and my halfling can move jist as far in a round as your giant. 😂😂😂

[@bantaman64]

I don't use a grid in my in-person game, but it's not abstracted to the level you're talking about. We're still using minis, measuring our movement, using templates for spells, and it's making things so much more immersive. It helps that I've collected a considerable amount of physical terrain from my years in the hobby

[@simflyer9955]

I have maps and art for everything I possibly can. Battle maps and grids for every type of combat - small and large. «Theatre of the mind» is not for our player/gm group at all. It’s just as much a board game as rpg in our sessions.

[@toddpickens]

I think most people learn the game from people who already know the game, which means a lot of practices get handed down. Grid-based movement has been the standard since at least AD&D first edition. And measurement by increments of 5 or 10 runs throughout almost every facet of the game, from movement to spells, to weapon range. I don't know how anybody would apply those rules without using the grid system. I've been playing 5e for years, and if you're telling me that the books say that grid-based measurement is an alternate ruleset, that's news to me. Also thanks for the video. Good stuff.

[@rowanash5378]

Consider the following option I've play tested a few times with my friend. 6" popsicle sticks, bought in bulk from craft stores. Using the usual metric of 1" = 5ft, a popsicle stick is 30ft. You can use them to measure distances on a flat using most average size miniatures and the sticks. Terrain being made of whatever you have around the room.

[@orchardhouse9241]

We haven't done much combat yet, but we usually do either theater of mind or our DM draws a quick sketch to help us visualize where everything is. We also do a combination of these. As far as I can remember, we haven't used grids at all yet.

[@EunoiaRPG]

Im definitely moving towards abstract as my preferred method of play. I use VTT's very often and turn the grid off and use the measuring tool if specific distances are required. So it ends up effectively similar to grid play but more fluid around corners and diagonals etc