D&D: Rogues Kinda Break the Game

Get Access to Over 600 Pages of D&D Content: / monkeydm
#shorts
Dungeons and Dragons, XP to level 3 with Davvychappy, potentially a bit a Critical Role with dungeoneering, tabletop community next to tabletop RPG, dungeons and dragons, Fjord, Beau, Jester, Yasha, Caleb, Nott, 5th edition dragons, 3.5e, dungeon dudes, DM GM, dungeon master, game master tips sprinkle a bit of Caduceus, Mollymauk in the Mighty Nein. Matt Mercer.

[@pandoratheclay]

The bard with expertise as well: bruh

[@teabagsmcgee5275]

I was gonna say... Bard college of eloquence could sell rubbers to a nun.

[@danacarajb]

I think he is including reliable talent... BUT THAT STILL DOESNT COUNT. Charisma checks are covered better by Glibness, which rogues cant get. Strength checks are better covered by barbarians getting a stronger version of Reliable Talent for only strength checks. PLUS, anyone can get expertise with skill expert. Instantly, Barbarians beat rogue at strength, Bards and Warlocks beat rogue at charisma and Artificers can pick locks better than rogue thanks to flash of genius.

[@lada8744]

@@danacarajb My rogues got high charisma. And reliable talent can’t be discounted. It means the rogue can reliably get higher rolls than the other classes and succeed more often.

[@pandoratheclay]

Then again, min maxed Clerics or whatever can see god making a pillow fort with planets

[@Cy3qi]

@@danacarajb do barbarians really get something that much stronger, I mean a barbarian auto gets 24+ if I read the level 18 skill right but even at 0 strength and a +6 proficiency bonus a rogue with expertise is gonna roll a 22+ (granted the rogue is screwed with saves in that case)

[@ElenaPog]

I’m playing a rogue/wizard right now who has expertise in arcana, investigation and history (historian feat) and it’s honestly really enjoyable, I get to play a lil fucking nerd

[@definitelyarealperson248]

Lol nerd

[@christineboari131]

I love making those kinds of characters because I'm a huge nerd irl, and I like learning the lore and secret plots of the world and stuff like that. It also helps with skill diversity in the party because nobody else likes to pick history or religion.

[@definitelyarealperson248]

@@christineboari131 i love playing super dumb characters because it actually requires more thought. You know out of game what’s going on. But you need to figure out what dumb misinterpretation your character believes.

[@ElenaPog]

@@christineboari131 yeah! Honestly I’ve been wanting to dm for a while now and I’m considered giving the characters 1 expertise for free, simply because of the diversity it allows

[@thatotherotherotherotherguy]

playing in a server which uses two checks for passive gains so put that up for rouge and max out

[@chamitoempire1672]

THE STREET THUG BUILD 1. Make a variant human rogue 2. Point buy and get 14 strenght 3. Proficiency in athletics and then expertise 4. Grappler feat 5. Attacking grappled enemies gives you sneak attack Well done, now go shank people in alleyways

[@ballistic199]

Bard: *laughs in jack of all trades and expertise*

[@danrope9897]

Bards get Expertise later, tho.

[@overheat97]

@@danrope9897 *Laughs in multiclass*

[@rabbidninja79]

@@danrope9897 true but you also gain more from it. Exclusive spells, some healing, and still gain in caster level (even if a little more limited than pure caster)

[@Gaalatheus]

You also don't get reliable talent, which guarantees high "rolls" by that point in the game

[@rabbidninja79]

@@Gaalatheus eh.. not really "high" but does guarantee avg rolls

[@knightx605]

As a home rule type thing, I allowed my players at the start of my campaign to take ONE free expertise in a skill as long as it tied into their character. Mostly so everyone would have one specific skill they were good at.

[@TerryAVanguard]

Sounds like a good idea

[@LadyGameshine]

I like this idea... may use this

[@foegettergames252]

Ahuh, sure. And your table has been around for how long? Oh, it's fake?

[@kycool8684]

@@foegettergames252 do you have a reason to assume he doesn’t actually play the game?

[@knightx605]

@@foegettergames252 My party had started the campaign around this time last year, but had been on and off because of school and personal stuff. Plan on resuming sessions again this upcoming week. Campaign has been a lot of fun for their chaotic antics. XD One is an Elf Eldritch Knight, a Tiefling Warlock, a homebrewed Axodatal Cleric, a homebrewed half human and fox Cleric, and a homebrewed humanoid Sugarglider Rogue that we make jokes of saying he hides as a big piece of clothing on people's neck on heads as hats. XD (Locatha, Shifter, and the new monkey glider race were the templates for minor homebrewing.) Elf got expertise in History and Tiefling in persuasion or deception I think. (Need to check back on other three.)

[@alexthezephyr]

"That's right, it goes in the square hole"

[@brucemaximus3797]

**SOBBING UNCONTROLLABLY**

[@ThisFuckingGuy]

Rogues are experts in what they do, they don't turn into animals, shoot fireballs or Eldredge blast from their fingers. They're just really good at humany things.

[@Ceraphid]

Champion fighter looking in the distance : 😐

[@EldritchCaptain]

Come on, it's not that hard to spell it

[@connormcconnell7805]

Artificer: "I can pick locks better than you ever can do shit down and wait until you can kidney shot something m'kay"

[@schwabbelgaming757]

idk, I always thought of rogues as like the "expert class" and less the "sneaky edge-lord thief class" like look at the subclasses for example: like sure thief and assassin fit the stereotype pretty well but basically most of the other ones are just subclasses that make you pretty damn good at general dnd encounters like Inquisitive: you're literally Sherlock Holmes a master detective or Mastermind: An expert spy/infiltrator or heck swashbuckler: an expert at 1v1 combat So in that sense, I feel like multiclassing into rogue is more "becomming better at the things you do" and less of "a couple level dip that makes no sense with most characters" yknow?

[@farkasmactavish]

Swashbucklers are more 1v2, actually, given they can freely switch between melee targets.

[@captainkiwi77]

@@farkasmactavish they can switch between targets. That’s not the point of the ability. That’s to let you run away and around, and avoid, as a rogue with a presumably moderate at best ac. The wording of their sneak attack addition makes them excel against a single creature, and another target for a rogue attack is bad, not even close to adequate damage. It’s just bad in that respect. Yes it can switch targets, no it can’t handle multiple targets well

[@leonardocamilio1206]

Even the thief is more of an expert than an edgelord since you can be an actually good and specialized combat medic (healer feat+fast hands, bringing people with a bonus action and healing also with a bonus action) and/or tactician (using all the amazing items like caltrops, traps, oil and stuff with a bonus action, making you basically a non-caster controller)

[@pandoratheclay]

Sneak attack just happens to be the “expertise” in weapons The crit beyond the crit

[@Sleeper0918]

Don’t forget Scout, the embodiment of first strikes, schmooving, and even doing a second attack

[@iododendron3416]

You can actually get expertise in 13 or 14 skills with the right feats and multiclassing. EDIT: It's actually 15.

[@APerson-ws4cw]

explain

[@iododendron3416]

@@APerson-ws4cw Be a Half-Elf. Take 6 levels of Rogue for 4 skills with expertise. Be a Scout to gain expertise in Nature and Survival checks. Take a level in Ranger and pick Canny to get another skill with expertise. Take a level in Cleric and pick the Knowledge domain for expertise in Religion, History or Aracana, picking two of the skills. Take ten levels in Bard for expertise in another 4 skills. Take the Skill Expert feat and prodigy for two more skills with expertise. You now have expertise in 15 of the 18 skills.

[@Lizcoon]

@@iododendron3416 goddamn. That would be weird af to rp.

[@jjrulez1596]

@@Lizcoon just the dude who "picks up a bit of everything" but, like, they've been that way all their life and they're old

[@iododendron3416]

@@Lizcoon actually pretty easy: 'wait, let me handle that'

[@daffoplays6616]

Monk with insane acrobatics: Lmao, watch me jump 40 feet.

[@princephantom1294]

I mean, your jump distance is actually tied to your strength score, not any skill. Monks are just good at jumping because of step of the wind.

[@nukeflavoredsparklingwater9578]

Me and the bois: Everone picks rogues with a different profession

[@ajaafive1384]

Ranger: expertise, guidance, enhance ability, For stealth, pass without trace, Nature's Veil, silence

[@TheDarkblade711]

Skill expert feat!

[@Aldaking444]

The skill expert feat literally exists

[@kevondrewilliams]

I always kinda picture the Rogue as somebody who knows how to ask the right questions, and developed a method that works best for them, same way wizards have to rescribe spells that they find bc it was another wizards short hand. Rogues just short hand life lol

[@ARatherDapperTapir]

I like the way you put this

[@spikypancake1661]

As a level 12 rogue, I can confirm, in my party of eight people, I do ALL the ability checks. Also just saying, +5 int (I'm an arcane trickster), plus expertise in Investigation, plus the Observant feat, means I SEE EVERYTHING. It's a great combo. ;)

[@alexjones707]

I did this for my grappler build. 3 lvls swashbuckler rogue and the rest in Rune Knight. So much fun to play. Adv and expertise in Athletics checks is great!

[@kennysalty6019]

An alternative to this, incase you really want that level 20 ability, take the skill expert feat and round at an odd ability score while you get expertise in whatever skill you wanted. Though a rogue 1 dip is never a bad idea.

[@The_good_guy_rabbit]

You know I've never even seen a d&d board in real life or played the game at all but still find myself watching to the end. Really comes to show how interesting d&d and your videos are hats of to you.

[@bone-thief]

I have a goblin rogue multiclassed as an arcane trickster. I got our whole party past a group of guards by using mage hand to slap a guard on the butt then rolled nat 20 on persuasion to persuade the guard that it was his co-worker who did it. The two rolled off into the nearby bush while making out and were too pre-occupied in their steamy bush activities to be bothered to stop our party from just waltzing on in. My dm had to pause because he was laughing so hard

[@Slomsy]

The bard having both expertise and jack of all

[@errantvenatus6732]

Bard of Eloquence beats them out at Deception and Persuasion since they get the no lower than 10 feature for those 2 skills at 3rd lol

[@honahamomoru151]

You have expertise in Arcana, but who actually cast the spell? -The Sorcerer Supreme-

[@shadeofmountain9199]

smol spell list 🤭 wizard 🤓

[@khepridixon2754]

I've been planning a rogue/battlemaster tank for a while and it's, a little insane not gonna lie

[@jacobbayne5769]

Fighter battlemaster, and hexblade. More atks and more options for hexblade and now you teleport to your target so free manipulation of speed around battlefield with the abilities to just push or knock prone or use weapon master feats as your proficient with everything

[@ninnusridhar]

Sheild master + rune knight + rogue(1) is just such a fun build imo. Shove upto a huge creature as a bonus action, with expertise in athletics, and advantage on athletics checks. Grab a rapier and get the piercer feat for even more fun things. You can use the bonus action before you take the action(confirmed by wotc) and get advantage on all your attacks as well as all the attacks of your other melee Bros. Be in a team with a paladin and go nuts. Best way to shut down creatures in battle

[@asheronwindspear552]

Without the reliable talent simply use Skill Expert feat. Choose a skill, gain expertise and a +1 stat boost. Doesn't specifically say you need to choose, or can't choose, the skill you took with the feat.

[@j_a.0]

Druids with wildshape: I bet your not better at flight checks

[@Omegatired216]

I did this for a research necromancer, i also took the skill expert feat as well so I had double proficiency at history,arcana, and medicine. Literally 1rst lvl rogue/11th lvl Necro and currently developing bone grafts in game.

[@StayFrostyX279]

I always find the rogue as the ideal Librarian. Been meaning to make a Rogue Librarian who’s knowledgeable in all things and seeks to fill others(the party) with such knowledge.

[@WolfHreda]

I made a Reborn Swords Bard/Undead Warlock with expertise in Arcana and Intimidation, given she was reanimated by some sort of magic, and she's a partially withered corpse who can get a lot spookier on command. I am, however, considering multiclassing her again into Swashbuckler Rogue, because it's my favorite Rogue and fits very well with the Swords Bard.

[@Borispocalypse]

*Hold Person* *Silvery Barbs* *Inflict Wounds*

[@bannana422]

You forgot to mention "ROGUE, with the shield master feat." They are now knocked prone. As a fighter this one level of rogue gave me consistent attacks with advantage. Its busted and completely screws over single target opponents. (I just wanted the extra protection vs dex saves.)

[@SamHoward-l9q]

If your a samurai fighter you can also give yourself advantage on attacks all for the cost of a bonus action. With 5 bonus hp added too.

[@aaronharding2960]

Elven Cleric with a single dip into rogue is a fun dex based cleric build that gives the cleric even more utility than they already have. So I concur

[@nolankelly5595]

The Skilled expert feat will replicate a level dip for this reason with debatably better effects. My wizard has picked up this feat for use with the mizzium apparatus and the Arcana skill

[@crroom4636]

I almost multiclass almost every time with rouge just for expertise because being just proficient with something give you just 10-30% higher chance to succeed but with expertise 20-60% and it just feels so right to have it because you trained your whole life and only 10% is nothing.

[@rarego]

Lore mastery wizard or a knlowledge cleric are really good with skills, but the best combo I made was, Vedalken+Wizard Loremastery at lvl 2 you have Arcana skill+expertise+1d4 every time you roll arcana AND another tool in wich you roll +1d4 too, so you better fear them, Vedalken are a strong race to play and is so fun.

[@sjey6396]

I'm in an all rogues mini right now. We're level 9. I have +20 to sleight of hand and thieves tools 🙂

[@SamHoward-l9q]

How?

[@payprice5487]

In Stars Without Number, an OSR sci-fi game with only three classes, the Expert is the jack of all trade class. Warrior fights, Psychic has psychic powers, and Experts are everyone else. They get more skills and can reroll a skill check once per scene. Rogue is my favorite class and reminds me a lot of that general versatility and ability to be really anything you want. I want my next rogue to be a doctor who can treat the injured in mundane ways.

[@astrid2432]

PF2E: rogue are trained in stealth, one or more from the subclass, 7+int in other skills. From lvl 2 you get skill improvement from untrained to trained or trained to expert. From lvl 7 expert to master and from lvl 15 you can get master to legendary. So max 5 skills are legendary.

[@KingYejob]

This is why I give every class it’s own expertise at 3rd level, oftentimes with a choice between two or three skills so that classes can be more unique since I don’t want to give every martial athletics

[@ethanrepp-apostolico5982]

I recently came up with an awesome multi class idea way of the astral self monk but each pair of hands holds a bards instrument and then they’re basically a one man band

[@robertfoyle154]

I actually prefer a single level dip into knowledge domain cleric. They do pretty much the same thing with doubling proficiency bonus in arcana, or a few other limited skills. They also don't mess with your spell slots, give you more spells to choose from, always have command and identity prepared, and give you proficiency in medium armor.

[@supermcspotty]

Played a bug bear rogue. Indeed it makes you an amazing grappler and pusher.

[@Fella_friend]

We gave everyone one skill to have expertise in our games. We also make niche skills like history usable in persuasion attempts if you reference something that happened. Our general rule is to use checks related to the topic each time you succeed it lowers the persuasion check dc by whoever much depending on how well it’s done and what your doing.

[@SaburoDK]

I also like Ranger for the same reason, especialy for marcial a class to concentrate on favored foe, extra skill and expertise is a pretty good combo. Also one level on each can be really good for a monk or any dex character

[@russelllahna2268]

Paladin: You act like you're better than us! Rogue: Well, I am better than you.

[@Yup_Pup]

Knowledge cleric also gets expertise. I like a cleric dip for wizards bc I don’t give up spell slots.

[@Paws42]

This is why in my games, any character that doesn't have the Expertise feature normally gets it in one skill on their class list at level 5 That way the Wizard can be the best at Arcana, the Cleric at Religion, etc. etc., while not stepping too much on the Rogues' and Bards' toes as they still get to have Expertise in more skills

[@vinx.9099]

This is why the skill expert feat is good

[@lackoflogic6496]

This is why I usually run a strength check as grapples. And allow all characters to gain (with time and effort) expertise in a field that would make sense for them based on the story and class.

[@Basmalo3]

This is why I really enjoy the skill feats that they released in one of the unearth arcana articles. Athletic people focus on skills they really cared about and give them an added bonus

[@followeroftheprince]

Skill Master? That's currently a feat that grants you one expertise

[@edwardcrow6385]

A rogue blade singer wizard would be pretty nutty tbh

[@davii2663]

Skill expert and prodigy are great feats to get to work around this problem

[@socialreveluv5428]

The Skill Expert Feat is underrated in that regard.

[@terrbearthewerebear9390]

Knowledge cleric is a better 1st level dip for wizards if you want expertise in any two of the intelligence skills. You get medium armor + shields, keep full caster progression, cantrips like guidance, spare the dying, and thaumaturgy, 1st level spell GOATs bless and healing word, and a bunch of other buffs and utility spells that don't care about your wisdom score.

[@nuyabuisness7526]

Fighter with a dip in rogue is one of my favorite builds. You get all the health and damage output of the fighter with the plus 17 stealth

[@NieroshaiTheSable]

Laughs remembering Barbarian who proceeded to use advantage on Athletics to Lucha Libre his way through Avernus

[@Cowman77]

A fighter I played a while back was proficient with rolling for arcana

[@AceTaxiaGaming]

My Rogue is a literal ace detective and undercover agent: expert insight deception investigation and perception. And inquisitive for minimum 9 for Insight at level 3

[@chaosranger4729]

The bard leans back, laughing in being able to do that too

[@sewpkan1297]

you have to invest more levels into bard for expertise. rogues get it right out the gate.

[@chaosranger4729]

@@sewpkan1297 well, es but you get 9th levels spells in the end and not just 5th

[@thedbdentity2102]

I’m guessing the backstory to that would be” I wanted to be the best so I am stooped down to stealing a book of magic from one of my opponents library‘s”

[@matthewporter7871]

They need it man. It’s literally all rogues get and even then they just get it earlier than bards.

[@MoonlightRRU]

I’m playing Rogue right now and it’s so good

[@mouchoirtv1095]

Quel plaisir d'avoir le don Spécialiste chez Tasha!

[@haus2514]

Bards have expertise as well and the ability to get advantage on any check they want all by fourth level with the help of enhance ability. That easily outpaces the rogue in most of the range people play campaigns. It’s hard to find a campaign where it either last long enough to get peerless skill or your character would survive long enough to get it.

[@connorwilliams8410]

I would argue that a 1 level dip into knowledge domain cleric is better for a wizard looking to improve skill checks. You get two knowledge proficiencies (Religion, Nature, Arcana, or History) which immediately get expertise, two languages, a couple extra low level healing spells, and proficiency with medium armor and Shields which is a free 2-4 AC with the Warcaster feat.

[@brucemaximus3797]

This is why, when I ran 5e, I gave every class expertise in one proficient skill. Specifically this.

[@nathanaelpoole1369]

And this is why I give players at my table a bonus skill and expertise according to class or back story at creation.

[@ARatherDapperTapir]

Do you give everyone a Warlock invocation too?

[@nathanaelpoole1369]

@@ARatherDapperTapir no, that may be a bit much lol. I get that it is a bit of a bonus to power but no one should understand arcana better than a wizard no one should have better survival than the ranger and so on, I do try to keep it none combat for the most part.

[@ARatherDapperTapir]

@@nathanaelpoole1369 and I kind of get it, but I'm also the rogue player. So I'm curious, what do you think the rogue should be better at than anyone else? Because druids and rangers cover stealth when they need to.

[@nathanaelpoole1369]

@@ARatherDapperTapir like I say it changes by class and back story, and with rogues able to be so different it can be hard but stealth without magic is a default, but swashbuckler persuasion, thief thieves tools. As an aside I both love and hate Pass without trace as it makes party stealth possible at times but does tread a little on the rogue being the stealth expert.

[@nathanaelpoole1369]

@@ARatherDapperTapir also when I was a player (many moons ago) I was a tabaxi swashbuckler, Thunder without Rain. So I get that this may feel like it is stepping on the rogues toes a bit, not DMed for a rogue so far (closest is a multicalss) so not been an issue, may change in the future.

[@guyjackson1839]

If I had to create a D&D character for myself this would be it. The race ( ancient celestial ) it has ( True immortal ) “ it cannot be killed by mental/physical/magical or any type of damage, but it can be knocked out but that won’t last long because if it’s healing factor that is insane” Because of it having true immortality it has been around for trillions upon trillions of years. It has all knowledge of every single form of magic and it has all knowledge of every single form of hand to hand combat and it has all knowledge of every single form of combat having to do with daggers/One handed swords/two handed swords/maces and all other forms of weaponry. It also can wear any armor of any kind. It’s preferred weapons are two one swords that are custom-made and only can be wielded by this being, also it’s second preferred weapon is a bow is custom-made and only can be wielded by this being, both the swords and the bow way in extreme amount of 40,000 tons per sword and 30,000 tons just for the bow, each of the sheaths for both of the swords weigh 40,000 tons as well. That would be my character for DND but of course I guarantee many of what I said goes against rules

[@Borispocalypse]

you should call them Mariah Susan

[@tbazz95]

Plus I have never been disappointed whenever I get a sneak attack off

[@AvangionQ]

As a Wizard who wants to play an arcane investigator, I'd consider the Skill Expert feat.

[@crroom4636]

But also worth to mentioning is that a barbarian has a "Rage" which give him advantage on strengh checks and that equals a plus 5. So till the rouge has't "Reliable Talent" The babarien is better than the rouge in grapling.

[@MultiSoftE]

Scout rogue expertise in stealth and perception, mobility feat could move rediculous speeds in combat stealthed by level 4

[@Zerum69]

The fact arcane trickster is sometimes better than the wizard at magic is concerning

[@jacobbayne5769]

Wizards can proficiency with any skill they are proficient in at any time and it lasts for awhile as long they cast a spell. But they do have that option.

[@opalEDM]

Lvl 2 rouge fighter I was making earlier had +9 in some skills, due to my 18 roll in their boosted stat, dex

[@teawings4391]

Bard, who also gets half profency at every other skill, starts with three profency's, and gets expertise* "Mmm, yeah, defenitly"

[@YourBoyNobody530]

The bard wants to know your location

[@LeonBlackbird]

If that's your only reason to take Rogue, just take the feat Skill Expert or (if you're Half-Elf/Orc or Human) Prodigy. On the other hand, Rogues are my favorite class. Yeah, you won't have multiattack, but you have many things broken from level 1: - Expertise, as we've seen helps you a lot. - Sneak Attack makes you increasingly dangerous. - You have your own language with Thieves' Cant. And you can have more skill proficiencies than anyone. Let's imagine this: you're a Variant Human Scout Rogue with the feat Skilled. At level 3, you can have proficiency in 12 skills (4 from Rogue + 2 from Background + 1 from Variant Human + 3 from Skilled + Nature & Survival from the Scout subclass), and Expertise in 4 of them.

[@eafigarella]

Or as a wizard, multiclass to cleric knowledge domain, you get 2 expertise, heavy armor mastery and New prepared cleric spells to increase your repertoir

[@Sleeper0918]

I have a Tabaxi Rogue with the Scout Archetype and the Soldier Background. Which is to say, I have a bit over half of all skill proficiencies

[@spellister]

I have a wizard with the skill expert and prodigy feats so I got expertise in Arcana

[@thorstmixx]

Take three levels of Swashbuckler Rogue, then put the rest into Bladesinger Wizard, you'll have so much fun.

[@katelundberg2029]

Tbf for a wizard multiclass specifically knowledge cleric fits better imo unless you want to run a dex build as a focus or add more than 1 level. It's just rogue but in exchange for not giving as many and as much variety in profs it gives you healing spells and better armor iirc

[@theenduriangamer5509]

I actually have a Rogue w/ expertise in Investigation and Arcana and History. They're a wizard who can't cast magic, but knows SO MUCH about the world through their intense study. They currently out-class the wizard in my party for history and arcana.

[@MadnessOpus]

And that's why Arcane Trickster Rogue 18/Bladesinger Wizard 2 and Swashbuckler Rogue 14/Swords Bard 6 kick major butt.

[@yourselfgaming897]

I don’t know about the athletics one. You can probably build a great grappling rogue with some multiclassing but the rogue is gonna have a hard time having a good strength and dex meanwhile the barb can easily have a great strength, proficiency and advantage on strength checks.

[@SZRLM]

I mean if you have a sufficient modifier you surpass the expertise bonus for most early levels. STR18 barb with athletics prof. won't be even matched by a STR10 rogue with athletics expertise until level 11.

[@appleman2034]

2 words and my favorite feat: Skill Expert

[@cadman02]

That is where are wrong. The artificer is capable of out doing any tool related skill including thieves tools. Tool expertise, flash of genius, guidance cantrip, and ability bonus can get you +12-20 at level seven depending on you dexterity modifier and what you roll with guidance. At level 17 it can be +18-26. Plus if your skill proficiencies and tool proficiencies match then you get advantage. That is like a +5 to all of that.

[@dazzle9712]

Artificers don't get Reliable Talent. If you're a Rogue then by the time you reach level 11 you can have 4-6 skills where you can't roll lower than 23 (25 at 13 and 27 at 17), and that's without any modifiers or magic.

[@proudspark3853]

Or you can keep going in solo class picking up a feat like expert or prodigy getting a +1 to an ability and some extra benefits. Dipping into another class for something so small will only hurt the chances of those bigger spell slots.

[@CommunistKangaroo]

20th level barbarian with the skill expert feat can have a base strength score of 24 AND expertise in athletics

[@dragonhearthx8369]

Rouge sorcerer with the mizzet apparatus.

[@melacsirrah198]

Most broken skill-check based class I ever made was a Rogue/College of Lore Bard.. With all the benefits this combos give, even a 1 on a non-proficient skillcheck ends up being like a 21 at level 20

[@detrix9043]

Im running a campaign rn... all my 5 players took rogues. So honnestly, I love them cuz they're gonna need that expertise now 😂

[@TrulyMarcy]

that’s why the skill expert feat exists

[@geonsilberlicht4632]

Exactly my point. Any class should have 1 Expertise, with a limited field to choose it from. Rogues should have more, with maybe a bit lore of a flexible field (though not as flexible as the bard, who in turn shouldn't have as many expertises as the rogue). It's nonsense that a grappler build needs rogue levels.

[@heylolp9]

and at the point where you go Rouge 1 on your wizard, might as well take Rouge 2 at some point for cunning action hide for advantage and to protect your squishy self

[@captianbacon]

I mean the rouge wizard multiclass is probably tied for the second best wizard multiclass there is. The arkane trickster subclass goes great with blade singer.