D&D Traps, When and how to use them

Who the heck makes the traps, and why do they make them? This is what we will explore in this video. D&D Traps, When and how to use them
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[@derekburge5294]

My all-time favorite style trap is the Indiana Jones golden statue bit: give an obvious cue that they've been triggered and only start the potentially lethal consequences a few seconds later. Give the players one round of action before the rock starts rolling at them.

[@BanditsKeep]

Fun!

[@SusCalvin]

One idea I had was traps aimed at something other than the party. Like the dungeon-architect wasn't considering a troop of bums with a trap. One of the rooms I just rolled up in Esoteric is an anti-fungal trap room that keeps the myconoids out. It has absolutely no effect on the PCs but it hopefully creates an interesting opportunity against the shroom-men. A pressure plate in Dwarf Fortress can be set to trigger at a certain weight. So if it's meant to stop trolls, it won't trigger if smaller critters or your average adventuring bum steps on it. But if they have a donkey, and that donkey steps on the plate... One of my mates made a dungeon themed as a prison. A lot of the traps were placed inwards, they were meant to keep people inside and not out. They were meant to work in tandem with security staff, so a lot of loopholes we used were staff amenities. A small communication window next to a massive magical gate where a warden would have easily stopped a prisoner trying to squeeze through. Holes that would dump people into a containment cell for later processing.

[@satturnine7320]

Elaborate traps can be highly entertaining; however, lots of non-lethal traps that undermine a party’s confidence can also be entertaining!

[@BanditsKeep]

Like teleporters?

[@jasonconnerley]

Good advice throughout. I tend to not use a lot of traps but am working on trying to use them more when they make sense. I think part of the problem is with shorter online game sessions I don’t want to lose half an hour to players discussing and figuring out how to disarm traps. That said I am a big fan of player skill where traps are concerned, if they describe a reasonable course of action that would reveal or disarm a trap my inclination is to have that happen without a roll.

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks, yes for sure - player skill above all

[@UncleRiotous]

I might up the chance of finding a trap with a 10' pole to 3 or 4 in 6. My reasoning is when walking down a passage the character is only going to step in a couple of places where with a 10' pole they're pressing anywhere they think something might trigger something. It's part of moving slowly and carefully which pushes up the chance of a random encounter anyway. Good video.

[@BanditsKeep]

If you use the exploration speed you are moving pretty slow, but that doesn’t sound unreasonable - thanks!

[@TheDungeonMinister]

I love the logic behind the trap - who and why? And why did that Ogre get over the pit trap and I fell in? For that I like the idea that there are spots you can step that don't trigger it, and the monsters who live in that dungeon (whether they set it or just found it) know the spots. Like knowing which floorboards squeak when you're trying to sneak out of the house without waking up your parents, or knowing where the pot holes are in your commute and which way to swerve to avoid them. I don't use traps too often. Sometimes that's because of the setting, a place where it just doesn't make sense. Sometimes the monster just doesn't seem clever enough to manage them. I'm in the middle of designing an adventure where a couple traps would make sense, though, so thanks for the great advice!

[@BanditsKeep]

Yes, exactly!

[@PvtSchlock]

I love the use of the sprung trap in B4. I saw it in this comic called "Warlord" as a kid and it was like electric. "Its not in the rules but that's just how we play" Super Star right there baby!

[@BanditsKeep]

🙏🏻

[@CausticCatastrophe]

When i ran the tomb of horrors, i would do a lot that was discussed for the more lethal traps. But additionally, i would "slow down time" when one was sprung. This might be kids gloves to some, but it can really work to shrink time scales like this sometimes.

[@BanditsKeep]

Slow down time?

[@CaptCook999]

You can have fun with spooky traps. A trip wire that activates a bunch of rattlesnakes tails behind the characters. This will panic them to either waste time looking for the snakes or make them move quickly down the hallway to activate the real trap which could be anything from a pit to some kind of gas trap which would have dissipated if they waited but is there if they panic and run. Primitive traps would be easier for a thief to spot(+20%) & highly technical ones might be harder(-10%) to spot. A simple oil trap that pours from the ceiling might only douse one character but will cover the hallway with oil. A slippery mess and deadly if someone was carrying a torch. It would also stop mages from using any fire spells for some time. Levers, keys and certain pathways to avoid traps are as you said necessary for the inhabitants. But if it is say a crypt, there would likely be more deadly traps, set as the last person left and locked the door.

[@thatpatrickguy3446]

Great video! For me the traps suit the locale. Ancient tomb? Expect lots of traps, and a variety of traps. Often involving stonework so keep your dwarf handy! But also potentially involving fell magics, so keep your detect magic handy too. Kobold caves? Dirty rope for tripwires and shallow pits with spikes and woven mats covering the pit and balanced on the spikes to give the illusion of floor, the crafty buggers. And also potentially scorpions or snakes under the mats. Bigger goblinoids, ogres, or giants? Expect deadfalls, tripwires that fire crossbows or even ballista from concealment, and the like. They'll be bigger and more obvious traps, plus pitfalls and chasms. Mages? It's all an illusion. Toss pebbles across the floor before you walk across. Diminution traps with giant rats now being massive monsters. Anything is possible. Traps are everywhere in some adventures and never considered in others, and sometimes traps are unintentional. The underground river has eroded away the supports for the tunnel overhead. Cave-ins are always a possibility underground, especially if there's water rivulets on the walls and puddles on the floor from groundwater seepage. Heck, one entry into a starter dungeon involved a party member falling through the ground into a chamber beneath. They landed on the muck and vegetable matter that fell through with them, so no damage, but now here's a place to explore! And sometimes the trap is the safest place to be. One villain had a pit/chute trap in his lair. If captured, or being closely pursued, he'd run down a hall with the party close behind, "accidentally" set off the pit trap, and when he fell into the chute a jet of fire would fire down the hall, potentially burning pursuers to a crisp. 😀But I may be an evil DM. My players tell me so at least. 😛 And the chance for a trap to jam and not work? I use that too. Along with hints that there may be a trap. "Part of the floor ahead, rectangular in shape, seems to have sunken in on itself. There seems to be a foot wide ledge on both sides of the sunken area." Though sometimes the ledges are the pressure plates that cause the trap to open... Who can say? ;-)

[@BanditsKeep]

Nice

[@andrewhaldenby4949]

Excellent video on a tough subject - OSR dm’s have to be trap designers in their own right! Totally agree that key thing is who set the trap and why. In current dungeon, one faction wants to catch people alive, so has set deep pit traps with lots of straw at the bottom. Another faction wants to kill, so has crossbows set to release if a door is opened. The PCs can move and re-use the crossbow trap if it comes to that. Lastly real world bugs use traps - trapdoor spiders, gnat larvae that trail silk strings to catch small flying bugs, etc. Fantasy giant versions of these could work

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks! Oh yes the giant bug trap would be awesome!

[@Giles29]

The thumbnail reminded me of Hercules: The Legendary Journeys. In one episode Herc has just escaped yet another horrible death trap. He looks around at the place he is in, thinks for a moment about what just happened to him, and says "WHO makes this stuff?"

[@BanditsKeep]

😂

[@jriggan]

I profess the love of big rock traps. Counterweights, wedged slabs, rolling balls of doom. “Nice of you to drop by, Mr. Jones!” I like the Dex save/skill challenge die roll engagement, and I like forcing the players to act like rats in my maze. It’s good fun for everyone. Usually…

[@BanditsKeep]

Nice

[@kevinkrummel4638]

The Jade Hare is where I learned about traps not necessarily going off when triggered, but their chance of damaging a PC being left to chance; IIRC the pointy sticks that jutted up from - and retracted back into - the floor would only either hit, or perhaps activate at all?, if the DM rolled a 1 on a d4 when a PC crossed the trapped section of floor. Either way, it was mechanically the same: take d6 or something damage only 25% of the time, but I imagine it could be important narratively, i.e. it makes a difference as to whether the PCs will know there's a trap there when the first one enters (it goes off always but only hits on a 1 on a d4), or whether they remain oblivious until one of them is unfortunate enough to suffer that 1 on a d4. Long story short, it blew my mind and made any trap that couldn't easily be noticed or, even if found, disabled, more "fair". The players could know the odds and better assess the risk of entering the killbox if they weren't able - or didn't want - to take the time to disable it

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool!

[@ts25679]

I do think the lessons of "What purpose does it serve?" and "what kind of experience do I want to create?" are important. In universe it gives your world greater depth, but at the table it should help inform how you build the experience. "Because you're supposed to." doesn't work at every table.

[@BanditsKeep]

Indeed - each group is going to have their own reasons and goals for sitting down to play an RPG

[@granttrain3553]

I dont think the 2 types are room and treasure, those things work mostly the same. I do agree that there are 2 types, long form and short form. Short forms are the sort that you might find on a chest or a door or have scattered around, they are very easy to design and quick to resolve. Long form traps are your Grimtooth type situations with multiple parts and they almost become puzzles for the party to navigate safely. Love your videos, keep it coming.

[@BanditsKeep]

That’s an interesting way to look a them for sure. Treasure vs Room is in the book, I didn’t come up with that.

[@paavohirn3728]

I've avoided traps due to issues of verisimilitude as well as rules adjudication. So tend to think too much about why would there be a trap and what would be the exact mechanism etc. I'd like to get more comfy with traps though. I'm also using quite a lot of pre-made material. So my current take is that the scout gets to roll to get a hint of a (room) trap. If characters look for a trap in the right place they'll find it. Or at least clues. I like the traps are triggered done of the time rule. Oh and I completely agree about the need to have the characters warned when traps aren't common all around.

[@BanditsKeep]

Makes sense

[@SexyPapaG]

Traps are something I'm still trying to place a style. I've had success with the "impact/mechanism/trap" style, of showing players one of the three (a dead body/pressure plates/holes in the wall) and having them figure out how to avoid it. The "sword in the lake" trap has been fun to use, with a clearly magical sword imbedded at the bottom of a clear body of water. Skeletal hands attached to the hilt, handless skeletons littering the bottom (the sword permanently sticks everything to it while in the water). That said, I'm curious how you feel about the gamification of traps, ala wandering monsters as a resource drain. Throwing in pit traps that can ONLY be rolled for (or perhaps avoided through anti-trap spells/magic items), dealing some amount of damage and having a chance to break potions. Perhaps with a saving throw, to reduce lethality. Also, how do you approach the "I look at the walls/floor/ceilings" procedure that it seems would make "spottable" pit traps always noticed. Which, as you argue, is not a bad thing: having to deal with them while running away is an excellent example of creating interesting situations. But it certainly serves a different function to the above.

[@BanditsKeep]

I rarely make anything in my game in a way that you can only solve with dice - though often dice are part of the equation. For instance if the players are not specific about how/where they search I will likely just roll a die. If they specifically say they are using a pole to prod the ground in front of them they may automatically find it or receive some bonus - depending on the nature of the trap. A poison needle in a lock is not going to affect a PC that smashes it with an axe (though that may draw a wandering monster). As far as random encounter traps - not something I’ve done with room/treasure traps, but if you include things like slimes and molds I do that quite a bit. In that case if the PCs are not being careful it may be a surprise check to see if they avoid the falling green slime.

[@Wordviews]

The existence of traps and characters searching for them is already connected to the resource economy via the tracking of time. Searching for traps requires characters to move more slowly, therefore exposing themselves to more wandering monster threats.

[@thomasverreault1700]

Well my favorite RPG is Star Frontiers and since I was working on a video for the robotics skill I came across a little tiny paragraph under fighting robots suggesting that sentry guns are run by a computer using a robotics management program so I cant wait to have a doorway defended by a hvy laser, heavy machine gun or even a sonic devistator, plainly visible and see what the players do to counter it.

[@BanditsKeep]

I’m rediscovering Star Frontiers and it’s it so cool - can’t wait to bring it to the table for my group

[@lydiasteinebendiksen4269]

I made a system I called reaction encounters for D&D 5E, which is basically a way to make running into a trap more interesting. The short summary is that if you would normally by the rules make a single save, you can choose to impose disadvantage on it to make a check with disadvantage. There are also rules for using spells and abilities for traps, and for how different characters may have different time to react based on placement. The purpose of the system is to make it so that if you go for the old ilusory boulder rolling with poison spikes on the walls, players can inspect either if they suspect anything. It also makes it possible for characters to sacrefice themselves to oush others out of the way, or for instance cast shield against the dart trap, or maybe jam a trap midway through activation if you are a thief with really fast hands. Ultimately I feel like it takes a single save and makes it an oppertunity for characterisation and cunning play.

[@BanditsKeep]

I like this!

[@matthewkirkhart2401]

What is also very interesting to me about a Thief finding a trap is that in in the Expert book, not the Basic book just the Expert book, the Thief trap-related skill doesn’t say “Find” anywhere. It just says “Remove”. I am not sure this was an oversight or a mistake. The Thief’s unique skill is in disarming traps, not finding them. In other words, like the other Thief skills, “removing” or “disarming” a trap is something that only the Thief can do, just like picking locks, climbing sheer surfaces, picking pockets, etc. Thieves are as likely to find a trap as any other human: 1 in 6. Finding a trap is not a unique ability: any character class can find traps. But only a Thief can disarm them. Another point that supports this interpretation that the percentage listed for the Thief skill is for disarming the trap only and not finding the trap is that until the Thief’s skill percentage gets to 35%, he is going to be worse than all other human characters at finding a trap. This just doesn’t make much sense to me. Why would the 1st level human Thief be worse at finding a trap than a 1st level human Fighter, human Cleric, or human Magic-user? But the percentages below 35% for those lower level Thief characters does make sense if this percentage is only used for the unique Thief skill of disarming the trap, something that a Fighter cannot do and a Cleric or Magic-user can only do through casting a spell. The one house rule we do use for Thieves and traps is that like Dwarves, a Thief can find a trap 2 in 6, not 1 in 6 like other humans.

[@BanditsKeep]

Interesting interpretation for sure - I fall into the room vs treasure trap crowd, but I can see this option - so do you allow anyone to find treasure traps?

[@matthewkirkhart2401]

@@BanditsKeep Absolutely, just our interpretation. No idea if this is correct or not. I should ask Zeb Cook sometime. I see him at a game convention at least once a year, although this was so long ago I doubt he will remember if the “Find” was intentionally left out of the Thief table or not. I had not thought of your great point about room vs. treasure traps. But yes, up until now we allow anyone to find any trap. But after considering your point, that may change.

[@BanditsKeep]

@@matthewkirkhart2401 I'd say "on paper" finding treasure traps (with a die roll) is the skill a thief has (that others do not) at my table - but that being said, anyone who role-plays the steps to find a trap can find it

[@graveslugg3291]

Cant beat classic scything blades from the ceiling, the spikey swinging door thing on a tripwire, spears in the wall, poison darts shooting out of stone faces, or the pit trap into a larger pitch black chamber where hissing or growling ensues.

[@BanditsKeep]

Yes!

[@krystal2423]

My favorite trap is a pitfall into a gelatinous cube, monsters living in the place know about it and feed it, adventures never see it coming. Bwahaha.

[@BanditsKeep]

This is why we levitate through the dungeon 😂

[@SimonAshworthWood]

@@BanditsKeep Like the Emperor in the old computer game, “Star Wars Battlefront 2”, eh? Creepy! 😲

[@AaronthePedantic]

Thanks for the primer, Daniel! I'm a huge fan of a trap-laden adventure.

[@BanditsKeep]

🙌🏻🙌🏻

[@WayneBraack]

My thief I played long term was almost always the dungeon scout. Which may explain why he sometimes came out with a little extra treasure the other's didn't know about. It's how he got his artifact weapon and became a Dwarf.

[@BanditsKeep]

That sounds like an interesting story and something the party might have noticed 😂

[@Sageofthedustypage]

I think l have learnt something from everyone of your videos l have watched.

[@BanditsKeep]

Awesome

[@RIVERSRPGChannel]

Good points I like the use of a 10' pole and I like the old school thief abilities too Good stuff

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks 🙏🏻

[@simonblanjean6538]

Nice, I never encountered a trap in my life since I play with modern players, but the evil genius in my little head could not help but wonder at the Grimtooth stuff. Especially the lobster one.

[@BanditsKeep]

That stuff is fun to read, not so sure about actually using most of them though!

[@estelaplateada4]

Great points, thank you!

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks

[@BlackJar72]

I've moved away from simple traps that are handled mechanically be rules and dices rolls, like saving throws for needles, and now try to come up with problem solving traps when I can make them work -- traps that provide a puzzle but can avoided by careful observation and quick thinking or ingenuity. OTOH, I've also realized sometimes a trap isn't a trap (especially with the simpler ones), some could be anything for strange forgotten (and dangerous) machinery or simply a lack of structural integrity. A blanket full of rocks released by a rope tied to a door and a deteriorated ceiling that collapse with a jarred door is pulled open are essentially that same thing -- the first is a real trap, yet they both function as traps, really differing only in the second options lack of intentionality.

[@BanditsKeep]

Good point! Would you allow the ceiling fault to be discovered via a search?

[@BlackJar72]

@@BanditsKeep Yes, especially by a dwarf or a character who investigates carefully. Basically, I'd treat it as a (room) trap like any other, but with a natural rather than artificial mechanism. For practical purposes I treat traps as meaning anything that functions as a trap.

[@BanditsKeep]

@@BlackJar72 Makes sense

[@gabriellabelle3915]

I just had amazing success with the cave turtle guarding the bridge in incandescent Grottoes. Players crossed it and avoided, yet while fleeing battle on the island, mage forgot and ended up loosing their leg. Players are super nervous and vulnerable down their. Regretting the fast travel to the deeper dungeon now

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool

[@Astartes36]

OMG!! IM FIRST!!! Love it!

[@BanditsKeep]

If you are first, check for traps!

[@Astartes36]

OMG that’s funny!

[@Astartes36]

Btw, what computer version of BX do you have? Where did you get it?

[@BanditsKeep]

@@Astartes36 The PDF? I got it here:BASIC- www.drivethrurpg.com/product/110274/DD-Basic-Set-Rulebook-B-X-ed-Basic?affiliate_id=464523 EXPERT - www.drivethrurpg.com/product/110792/DD-Expert-Set-Rulebook-B-X-ed-Basic?affiliate_id=464523

[@larsbangjensen5332]

Great conversation and advice. I like traps alot, but also traps that require more than a dieroll to solve. But there is always a danger of making your players too paranoid 10' pole'ing everything :)

[@BanditsKeep]

Balance is the key I believe

[@juancholo7502]

Although it takes more time, I like to think about how the trap is made & sprung. That way players who take their time and look over the trapped area could find it if they look at the right place or for the right thing. It just takes time. A thief could just roll and find it faster, but that is their special "Ability".

[@BanditsKeep]

Indeed

[@kenhensch3996]

Great video!

[@BanditsKeep]

Thank You!

[@johnhansen4794]

Zombie mold is wicked popular for filling pits.

[@BanditsKeep]

Turns people to zombies?

[@johnhansen4794]

@@BanditsKeep Picture bits of bone and rotting lumps of flesh that move as a mass toward "life." The mound of undead debris radiates negative energy slow draining the life force of those around it or within it. Only turning, dispel magic and remove curse have much effect. Although Zombie Mold will avoid flames and is reduced in potency by acid.

[@BanditsKeep]

@@johnhansen4794 nice

[@franmendes]

I love traps. I use all the time in my games.

[@BanditsKeep]

Awesome

[@bryansmith844]

I like traps, but really only throw them in if I have a “cool” idea. Most recently the roots of a magic plant that entangle you and try to sap your spell slots if you have any while constricting you. They also cast counterspell on any spell coming at them, physically they are easy to slash through though. Just a weird obstacle, natural trap.

[@BanditsKeep]

I like this

[@TheArcturusProject]

excitd by the title!

[@BanditsKeep]

😊

[@thomaswebb2584]

Gelatinous Cubes never made sense to me except as traps. I've read published modules where a Gelatinous Cube will appear coming down the corridor the PC party just came down---but how? Where was it before? What are there still torches, doors, treasures, if a GC has been wandering the area? However, a pit trap with a soft, gooey bottom because a GC has fallen in and can't get out I find totally understandable! ;)

[@BanditsKeep]

Good thing everything else in the dungeon makes sense 😂

[@Joshuazx]

Searching for Traps: 1 on a d6 Triggering Traps : 1-2 on a d6 Save or Die Mechanics: Priceless. By the way, what book are you showing on screen?

[@BanditsKeep]

For sure - Moldvay Basic D&D

[@Joshuazx]

@@BanditsKeep thanks

[@thomaslesperance6256]

This is awesome. So you don’t use the 1 in 6 if they say they are looking where the trap is like the rules? When would you use the 1 in 6 if at all then?

[@BanditsKeep]

If they are not specific “I’m looking for traps as I walk down the hall”

[@retrodmray]

Great one! Hey Daniel, when you do your podcast on Anchor, do you just use your phone for the audio or a mic and headphones, or both depending? 🤔 Thnx! Thinking about getting one going for myself soon!

[@BanditsKeep]

Mostly just my phone - occasionally I use the mic I use to make my videos. I would not use the Anchor app to record though, it’s a bit clumsy are usually use the voice recorder app on my phone and then upload the audio

[@retrodmray]

@@BanditsKeep Cool... thnx! So your phone and your mic are about the same then? Thnx again for the advice, Daniel.

[@BanditsKeep]

@@retrodmray The mic is arguably better, but I like to keep the podcast more "casual" and often record it while I'm out walking etc.

[@retrodmray]

@@BanditsKeep Cool! I thought so as a few do sound that way. Great way to get outside, and exercise both the body and that gaming mind as well, and keep them both a little sharp. 👍 😀 Thnx for the advice, Daniel.

[@mightyeroc7284]

I always add a a way to activate/deactivate the trap. It may be old and not work anymore, or be used by the current inhabitants.

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool

[@ryanb7186]

A lot of people get frustrated with traps because they are not fun to interact with. They just jump up and get you without any input from the players. Or, for groups who do take the time to visually sweep every 10 foot square for traps as they go, it becomes tedious and slows down the game. I think for most people neither of these scenarios are particularly fun long-term, even if the traps are mostly designed to drain resources (hit points, healing spells) and not to kill or permanently maim. Also, playing a thief in older versions of D&D just feels kind of bad. You usually fail at your job of finding and disabling traps, especially at low levels and, if your GM is using lots of traps, you usually will not make it to the higher levels before dying to something you know is there but fail to successfully disarm, triggering it on yourself and/or your group instead. Spell casters get spells to detect and deal with traps more effectively than a thief can in the early-mid levels. Having clues that there are traps such as dead bodies near them is good, but I feel like they only partially solve the problem. Some possible solutions I have been mulling over but have not play tested yet are to use a lot of traps on clocks which last several rounds before resolving, which allows the players to have a bit of time after they trigger a trap and know they are in trouble. At this point the GM starts pointing out the clues that were mentioned but that the players did not pay close enough attention to or investigate further like the row of 8 halfling-sized gargoyles along the back wall with their mouths all open which are now all rapidly spewing out water in the small tomb room they entered. The door into this tomb slammed shut splitting the party into two groups, one of which will start to drown within 6 rounds if they do not figure out a way to release those in the room from the trap. The solution can be a lever hidden in the wall outside the room, or maybe they have to open the sarcophagus, move the mummy aside and find the switch to open the hidden drain. Maybe the thief finds this hidden drain and those in the room manage to pry the plug out to save themselves in time. Speaking of which, if there is something hidden to interact with, maybe do a house rule for thief-like classes which allows them to search for trap-specific secrets in a round instead of a turn. Make them more useful to the party in this way through their extensive knowledge of how traps function and being able to identify what kind of trap this is likely to be and the various means to disarm it. You can make it a thief-specific knowledge roll, an INT roll, or a WIS roll and then point out a clue or specific solution for the thief to act on or tell his party about. Even failing the thief being able to find the solution, maybe the group in the room has the gear to clog up the gargoyle mouths and slow down or stop the flood of water (wads of cloth wrapped around the dozen iron spikes one of them was clever enough to bring, which are then stuffed into the holes). Or perhaps they have the means of battering down the foot thick stone slab door that sealed them in or have the knock or stone to mud spells to deal with it, or whatever other plan they can think of that makes sense for the situation. The point is that this kind of trap is a lot more fun to deal with than a trap where you step on a pressure plate you didn't notice and then immediately the ceiling above you opens up and large rocks fall down on you for 3d6 damage. But what about the traps which do more or less trigger and resolve immediately? Let's make the thieves in our games a little more useful again. In combat sometimes one group will be surprised by another, if the situation seems to merit it. In these instances you have players roll to see if they are surprised. If they are then that group of bugbears which had set the ambush gets a free round to attack the players or to do whatever else they want. Then you roll for initiative after that. Well, we can do the same thing with traps. When a trap is triggered and it is not a more slow acting trap on a countdown timer/clock like the example above, we can either have the whole party roll to see if they are surprised or just have any thieves roll. If they succeed on their roll then they can act in the same round that the trap is resolving. At this point you could either roll for initiative or just allow the thief and/or other party members who are not surprised to take an action. In the rocks falling from the ceiling example, perhaps the thief notices the grinding of the stone opening up, and is able to determine its origin is overhead (again you could use a house-ruled trap-specific knowledge, INT, or WIS roll, or even the hear noise ability in this instance--or you could just say it’s obvious to the thief and give them this knowledge for free). He can then attempt to push whoever is about to have the rocks fall on them out of the area or grab them by the collar and pull them back (again you could either have them make a STR or DEX check, something else, or just allow them to do it since the person they are helping is surprised anyway). If the thief is successful, then he just saved the cleric from having to use a healing spell or two or perhaps even saved someone’s life. Suddenly it feels a lot cooler to be a thief, and it’s clear to everyone else that even though you aren’t the best in a fight, you’re a valuable member of the party. If the group doesn’t have a thief or he was surprised but you allowed others to make surprise rolls, they are aware something bad is likely about to happen, but they are unable to pinpoint the direction or nature of this potentially bad thing. So a fighter who was not surprised may have a couple of seconds to react and may decide to fall to the ground expecting a scything blade to come out of the walls and cut at his thighs. Instead he is lying flat on the ground when the rocks fall and perhaps takes even more damage than he would have otherwise since he has exposed more of his body to the danger. Or maybe he guesses correctly and jumps backwards or forwards enough to get out of the area where the rocks will be falling down, just in the nick of time. If a trap is going to affect most if not all of the party, it would probably be good to allow everyone a surprise roll to have a chance to act. So say you trigger a trap in a hallway the whole party is in and a lightning bolt is going to shoot out from the far end of that hallway in front of them at about chest level. 3 of the 6 are not surprised. At this point you could again decide to have each non-surprised party member roll for initiative along with the trap, or you could just let the players go first. If you roll for initiative, you can give a bonus or penalty to the trap, depending on its nature. In this case I might rule a lightning trap is especially quick and give it a +1 or +2 on its initiative. You could also give thieves a bonus to trap-based initiative since dealing with them is part of their job. This bonus could be flat or could increase at certain level milestones, similar to how backstab multipliers increase at levels 5, 9, and 13 or whatever. Anyway, those who go before the trap can decide to do something to protect themselves or others from the incoming danger. If there was no thief or the thief was surprised then it comes down to luck on choosing whether to drop to the floor, quickly run backwards or forwards, or whatever other action they think might get them or others clear of the danger. This was way longer than I intended it to be, but it was good for me to write out my ideas and hopefully some who read it will at least have some food for thought on the subject of how to handle traps, if nothing else.

[@BanditsKeep]

If you feel thieves are not useful - you are not playing them as they should be IMO 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@ryanb7186]

​@@BanditsKeep I mean, you can say that, but a lot of it has to do with how much leeway a GM decides to give you. I should note that I am playing ACKS for OSR, and maybe its biggest complaint is about how bad it feels to play a thief in that system. That said, I probably haven't played B/X since I was 6 or 7 years old, but my understanding is that they are fairly similar. So a first level thief in ACKS opens locks on an 18+ on a 1d20. Find & Remove Traps is also 18+. Pick Pockets and Move Silently are both 17+. Climb Walls in 6+, Hide in Shadows is 19+, and Hear Noise is 14+. So you have one thief skill that you are good at, one you have a 35% chance of succeeding at and the rest ... well good luck. Also good luck getting a backstab off, as the rules for ACKS state: "A thief also has the ability to backstab. He must catch an opponent unaware of his presence, either by surprise or by moving silently and/or hiding in shadows to sneak up on his opponent." That's the ACKS core rules. Its Heroic Fantasy Handbook supplement adds some optional rules that allow thieves to add their DEX modifier to all of their skills except for Hear Noise. Another rule allows a thief to get up to a +4 bonus to Climb Walls, Hide in Shadows, and Move Silently if they have low encumbrance. It also added Thieves' Tools of superior quality along with a Thieves' Tools Companion Kit to make opening locks and finding & removing traps easier. The 2e rules, which are being play tested right now, allow for thieves to see dimly up to 30 feet away in dark areas. The new rules also allow thieves to get off backstab attempts when you are simply out of the target's field of vision. Adding all of this together makes thieves a lot better, but in core ACKS they are awful unless the GM is being really nice to you and constantly giving you bonuses if you are playing cleverly. But rules as written, it was so bad that I saw two different players retire their thieves way early and play something else. And I really could not blame them.

[@BanditsKeep]

@@ryanb7186 still not buying it - more rules do not make more fun IMO 🤷🏻‍♂️ if someone at your table wants to simply roll for success and succeed more times than fail, perhaps another class is better suited.

[@ryanb7186]

​@@BanditsKeep Well, how do you run thieves then? Is it rules as written, or do you and your groups modify things to your liking (this is what most groups do, I assume--mine certainly make house rules now and then). I seem to recall seeing a video of yours where you made a variety of gear have a heavy impact on how successful a character was at doing thiefy things in lieu of even needing to have a thief class. Is this not more/alternate rules to make things more fun for you and the groups you play with? Also, it's not about having more successes than failures, it's the fact that low level thieves are so bad at doing things they are supposed to be at least fairly decent at when you think of any rogue-inspired character from literature or the movies. Go ahead and write a script for a 1st or even 3rd level thief using the chances of success from the BECMI rules and the result will be a story where the rogue is constantly being spotted or heard by the evil lord's guards and then getting chased off or run through by their swords. Or, even if he manages to spot a trap 20% of the time, he will only be able to disarm it 20% of the time too. Unless the traps are obvious or he is taking his time to be extremely careful, more than likely he triggers one of the first few traps he comes across and it heavily wounds, captures, kills, or otherwise defeats him without him having even been aware of it. Maybe he manages to reach the prison cells to rescue his friends and spots the ogre gaoler with its back to him. A 3rd level thief would have a 30% chance to sneak up behind the ogre silently. If he manages that, to lift the cell keys off of its belt, he'll have to make another roll with a 30% chance of success. These attempts probably lead to the ogre noticing something is up, turning around, grabbling its club and smashing our would be rogue hero into the ground. In an actual game, if the GM is generous and the other players are on top of things, maybe it is allowed for the captives to notice the rogue creeping up behind the ogre and so they distract it in some way to increase his chances of success. Or maybe the GM decides that the jailer is heavily inebriated and gives a bonus to the thief's roll because of that. That's perfectly fine, but it does require a somewhat flexible, if not benevolent GM.

[@BanditsKeep]

@@ryanb7186 in BX I run thieves as written and even made a video about it 😊 the gear video was for OD&D which does not have a thief class. To each their own, but I stand by the idea that no class is bad or broken, they just need to be played/refereed as originally intended and not with a modern eye.

[@jamesnell1999]

I will say this about traps. Rolling dice to detect traps is pretty boring. If you are smart or lucky enough to look for a trap where there is a trap, you really deserve to find the trap or perhaps evade it by luck. You might not find a trap, but instead you find a secret door or some clue as to what might lay ahead. A good DM needs to encourage investigation frequently. The only way I know how to do it is by giving 4 or 5 details about a room, a dead end, or a pathway... in those 4 or 5 details include something that might hint of a trap. Why would a trap be here? Are there an abundance of ivy in the tree canopy overhead? If no one says, "I draw my sword and keep an eye on the ivy." in the first round of reaction, do you seriously, need to roll initiative? If they do go on alert, test them again. Some new potential threat emerges ahead. If the vine watcher doesn't indicate vigilance even when prompted with a "What are you doing?" Then let those vines drop and hope you can cut loose before the orcs show up. You describe the light, you describe the air, then you can add 2 or 3 visuals... "and the tree canopy and the muscular vines." If the party is not "Code Red" don't even roll initiative. It's honestly hard to pull this off once or twice a game. It takes perpetration, rehearsal, and then live performance. You can have other archs but the "being stalked" one is a good one. The trick is to give bursts of detail and hid one or two "keys" in there. It's sorta like one of those 5th grade reading comprehension tests that rewards you for paying attention and visualizing what you are reading or hearing.

[@BanditsKeep]

Good points!

[@boris2342]

Grimtooth has the best traps for sale - see his catalog

[@BanditsKeep]

😂

[@weirdguy564]

The whole concept of dungeon crawling is played out too much as it is. In my games we went into a traditional trap and monster filled dungeon only twice. Ever. This is from years of playing too. The VAST majority of the time it was a stronghold, ruined city, bustling city, active temple, mansion, dwarf hold/hollow mountain, or just street brawls. My player group and I just didn't think trap filled dungeons as a concept were terribly realistic, so we didn't use them.

[@mollymillions6586]

Plenty of room for traps in a lot of those places.

[@BanditsKeep]

Definitely important to be realistic in D&D

[@bryansmith844]

@@BanditsKeep 😝

[@weirdguy564]

@@BanditsKeep Touche, but my point stands. We're not fans of the idea that all "dungeons" are underground.