Rules for Social Interactions in RPGs

I talk a bit about creating fun social encounters in old-school games that typically lack rules for such things.
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[@Aaron-mj9ie]

Anyone whose actually PLAYED old-school games knows that the game isn't all about combat... It's actually all about failing morale checks and getting stuck in spike pits.

[@BanditsKeep]

Ha ha, yes spike pits!

[@crapphone7744]

OD&D. Poisoned spikes. OD&D 5th level dungeon+, no saving throw.

[@crapphone7744]

In retrospect it is surprising that a special kind of armor that defeats spikes when you fall in a bit would have been darned useful. That was one of the more frequent things that seemed to happen

[@colbyboucher6391]

When I was a kid (and this wasn't that long ago) one of my cousins drew up a "role-playing game" on a long car ride. It was a big dollhouse style haunted house. There was a stick figure, that was me. He had created a Tomb of Horrors style dungeon for me to blunder through. We had never played an RPG.

[@johntheherbalistg8756]

​@@colbyboucher6391 My nephew and I did something similar when I was between 11 and 12. We had some notebook paper, pencils and d6 and some time, and we came up with a combat system, levels and even a rudimentary challenge rating

[@elfbait3774]

It always confused me when people would tell me that "in the old days all you ever did was fight". I was lile huh, did I dream negotiating with kings, riddling with dragons, mourning fallen comrades or my chsracter getting married?

[@BanditsKeep]

Seems we had a similar history

[@worldbigfootcentral3933]

Excellent topic. Modern players don't remember that this was at the BEGINNING, They didn't have rules written for everything, they WEREN'T NEEDED. The DM could make judgement calls, or house rules, for anything. Which is what we did. I started playing in the mid-70's, and you were absolutely right, combat was DEADLY and unless the players were all but certain of a victory, parlaying or avoiding the monster was ALWAYS the best option. Well done.

[@BanditsKeep]

Thank You!

[@LightBulbPlayz]

My players recently went before a magistrate to try to get out of paying death tax for one of their hirelings. Before role-playing began I rolled my reaction + their charisma. So if they bombed it, I knew from beginning how to steer conversation. If they made good points I added +1 and if I caught them on something -1. And then I use scale to adjudicate if they avoided fines or such. In this case, they got off from taxes but had to sign documents. So next time this would be harder to get away with.

[@BanditsKeep]

I like that!

[@MaxUgg]

how you would prep and run a module would be interesting

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool!

[@MaxUgg]

@@BanditsKeep I'm currently running a bit of a hex crawl mashed up with the 5E stater set's 'Lost Mines of Phandelver' but using the 'Five Torches Deep' modification. In the first goblin cave one of my players, an elven cleric, asked the chief goblin 'do you feet hurt?'. Then it descended into making him a salve and putting onions on his feet over night. Funny stuff. Keep on keeping on!

[@BanditsKeep]

@@MaxUgg that’s awesome

[@Khaldryn]

Absolutely amazing perspective on how Dungeons & Dragons was meant to be played.

[@BanditsKeep]

Thank You!

[@davidyi8559]

A great lesson! Its important to remember - The DM SHOULD roleplay as NPCs the same way players can rp as their characters, and I think you really reminded me of that concept

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks!

[@gommechops]

Breaking modules down and showing how you would change,adapt,update or otherwise present it your way is always really interesting - I know I'm a little late to this. Great vid as always.

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks!

[@muker83]

The issue I've noticed is that GMs/DMs are often discouraged from making any rolls in social situations, and that they should just play it out. I've followed this suggestion and this led my players to focus theirs PC's skills/talents on combat. Now I have to change our habits if I want to see other types of PCs :/

[@BanditsKeep]

Are you saying in games that have social skills? If so, yeah I agree there needs to come a time those skills are used for the “builds” to make sense. Though what I will often do is just ask what their score (or bonus) is and even if I don’t roll the dice I will have it influence the NPCS

[@muker83]

@@BanditsKeep yes, i was referring to 5e, which was my main go to system to run It has charisma for the deception, intimidation and persuasion, some classes have social skills, and there are some spells and feats that help with that. But in the end I've rarely requested a roll.

[@colbyboucher6391]

What I do is actually base the difficulty of the check partially upon what the player says their PC is going to say.

[@Astartes36]

Another comment after I got to the end of your video. I would love to see a complete home brew adventure, as well as how you handle published stuff and the steps you take with those products. Lol, I guess I would love to see it all!

[@BanditsKeep]

Ha ha, nice. a did create and run the adventure with the ants if you missed that. Or are you suggesting a long home brew - like a mini-campaign?

[@Astartes36]

Yeah, I saw that one! Also you’ve showed some adventure running in your livestreams and the Thousand Islands stuff, so I know it’s out there. I just like seeing different dms approaches and such. It helps with my own inspiration. Also I happen to like the way you present things, so it’s a bonus!

[@BanditsKeep]

@@Astartes36 thanks 🙏🏻 I will certainly do some more - those are tricky as my players watch 😂

[@DiegoMartinez-ri4yd]

Great stuff! Very interesting video. I appreciate the slower pace of your words in this one. It makes non native english speakers understand you better. Thank you.

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks, I am definitely known for talking fast, I will try and slow down to this pace in the future.

[@paavohirn3728]

It also makes your video even more soothing than usual. Especially betwixt reading on JFK assassination, my chill summer vacation read 😀

[@TheArcturusProject]

Always love your perspective, because it comes from how you played back in the day. So important! And yes I do feel three separate posts were each super necessary XD

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks 🙏🏻 , I think 3 posts per video should be the new standard 😉

[@AdeBarrett]

Great video, thanks Daniel! Would really like to see your breakdown of a module and how you would prepare it for your table.

[@hoboogre8023]

Long time ago, I ran across a blog post that'd had expanded the reaction roll table to include what you mentioned; what are they doing? Also adjusted for what they're current goal/orders are. I wish I could find that table again. But you're right, DMs should always encourage bargaining, fast-talking, diplomacy, etc as often as possible instead of combat with every encounter

[@BanditsKeep]

That sounds like a really useful blog! Options are what make the game fun for me so I like to offer as many as possible to my players

[@IanBoyte]

I'd love to see a module breakdown.

[@BanditsKeep]

Sounds good

[@mackdmara]

I like reviews and this kind of content. I also like the new ideas or new stuff you introduce me to. Often I don't throw cash at a hard drive of downloaded content, but rather buy as I use it. It helps to see you talk about it and see what you think. Then I can follow your link to download what I think I could use. Cheers

[@BanditsKeep]

Awesome, thanks!

[@nostalgicpetrichor4913]

honestly I've been getting the best advice from you while binging through your videos, thanks so much!!

[@BanditsKeep]

I'm so glad!

[@nneisler]

Nice discussion about “talking to the monsters” - that is of course where the fun of the game is in that the part has a chance to get an edge over the dungeon or find out information or try to perhaps conserve resources. Its a chance for a character to really interact with an orc warband! And of course it isn’t always easy for the DM to come up with stuff on the fly - but that’s the job of a DM!

[@BanditsKeep]

For sure!

[@aarondavidson3833]

Finally caught up on the videos! What an awesome journey. I spent my weekend making a dungeon by hand using the ad&d rules, what a time. Your channel is my favourite D&D channel. Looking forward to more awesome content!

[@BanditsKeep]

That’s awesome, thanks!

[@sapientmuffin]

Great vid! The audio is sounding good by the way! Definitely interested in hearing how you prep and run modules! Also, it's dope that you're making an adventure. Looking forward to checking it out when it drops. 👍🏼

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks 🙏🏻

[@Andre99328]

Comming from the old ttrpgs myself, I agree with how you handle social encounters. Most DMs nowardays let the players roll in all or most social encounters, which discourage players in talking to people because they have low social stats and mosly fail the rolls. I did that mistake myself a lot, but try to decrease the rolls to a minimum, when, as an example, an NPC is hostile or unfrienly and the party want to sway him in their favour.

[@BanditsKeep]

For sure

[@sleepinggiant4062]

Great points. Mix it up. Subscribed. You can still talk after rolling initiative, or after someone says they attack. I encourage roleplaying during combat in my game. The best combats are a mix of different types of combats - surprising your characters with an obvious hostile encounter that turns social is quite a bit of fun. The opposite is true as well.

[@BanditsKeep]

For sure! Combat banter can completely change the flow

[@aarondavidson4093]

Late to the party - I love full module reviews and how youd change them to run them as its great fodder for running my games. Awesome video.

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks, perhaps at some point I’ll try that out

[@RadeFoxxy]

Orcs are CE, why would we be careful with them betraying a deal, or backstabbing the PCs. More likely, the PCs should be careful making deals with them. Great video, and good brain food. 🎉

[@BanditsKeep]

Yup

[@florentdemeyere4779]

I'm prepping Keep on the Borderland as a sandboxy OSE game, so I'd be very selfishly interested in any kind of video about the module Otherwise, I'd love to know what your favourite modules are and why

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool! That should be a fun campaign. I think so many people have done KOTBL that I’d be unlikely to do that one in depth, but I shall look at my options

[@RollStats]

Great stuff as always! I swear every time I watch one of your videos, about halfway through I stop and think... Did we just become best friends!?!

[@BanditsKeep]

😊

[@ts25679]

I agree the game doesn't "need" social rules, but I do think DM's would benefit from some examples of potential social encounters as you have displayed here. I think most of us need structure and the notion "you can do anything" in a TTRPG is too overwhelming for some. Giving all the players examples of what is possible, fun and engaging, can provide the structure they can build a narrative from.

[@BanditsKeep]

I agree examples are super important.

[@taryntessrog7588]

There is, in fact, a mind blowing set of rules for social encounters written by Courtney Campbell called Non-Player Character: Solving the Social Trap. Using these rules might be more cumbersome than useful for carefully crafted encounter, but I find it invaluable for casual and random encounters. In some games I a player in, I noticed a tendency for the DM's personality to come out in a predictable way in every NPC. The DM can't always escape their own bias about their players and will have NPC's always respond to some (or all) of the characters with exasperation (or condescension, or whatever) rather than entertain social attempts that don't fall in line with what they were expecting. Although I hadn't DM'd since I was a kid, I realized I used to do this too: If I think the players are being silly, of course NPC's aren't going to take their characters seriously either. When I decided to start up a campaign, I was very concerned about falling into that habit. Ever if you start out determined to keep an open mind, it gets harder to keep your biases in check as you get tired; and I still find running the game to be kind of draining. Campbell's rules are a great tool to keep your biases against the weird stuff your players want to do in social encounter in check. If you think they are being too silly for the NPC to take seriously; apply a -1 penalty but still roll, to see if the NPC is persuaded. Maybe the NPC is charmed by the character's irreverent wit even though the player's irreverence is starting to get a little old at the table. One of the things I like about the system is that the players roll one of the 2d6 reaction dice and DM rolls the other, so the players have a hint about how the monsters are reacting. Then, assuming the monsters don't immediately attack, the modified reaction roll also determines how many interactions you have before the NPC's start to get impatient and want to move on with their business. All questions, requests or social interactions can be fit into about a dozen types of interaction that can be resolved with a modified 2d6 and include prolonging the encounter, improving relations, or even recruiting the NPC. There is even a rule for trying to insult or embarrass an NPC to impress the rest of it's group. Then there is a deeper set of you can start to apply (if you want) if players keep reencountering the same NPC's or faction, reflecting the increased bond and trust that grows over time.

[@BanditsKeep]

Oh interesting, I will take a look at those. Well I don’t disagree that you do end up putting your own personality into the NPC’s you run. I don’t think that I need a mechanical system to tell me if the NPC would talk to the player characters or not. But I could see it being useful for some tables

[@taryntessrog7588]

@@BanditsKeep I hope you think they are as cool as I do! It can also be fun for the DM, because you get to be surprised by how the monsters react along with the players. Counterintuitively, I have also found that having this book on the table can help flip a switch in the brain of a certain kind of player that is used to treating their character sheet like a control panel, and encourage roleplaying. By letting them see that there is a menu of social actions that I will roll a reaction for, it signals that all of those actions have a chance of success no matter how silly they sound or what preconceptions those players are bringing to the table about that kind of monster. The fact that the menu has "Joke," signals to the player that telling the orcs a joke won't automatically give them a free attack and might make them friendly if you roll high or have a good charisma modifier. (You can still make them tell a joke and apply a modifier based on how well you think they are appealing to the orc sense of humor, but I think it inspires confidence and keeps the game feeling fair if you let the dice dictate whether or not the orcs were in the mood for jokes). Campbell, (unlike Gygax), emphasizes that it is important that the players have access to the social rules, whether they choose to familiarize themselves or not. His goal is to make the result less about a player's social ability, or the character's social skills, and more about the player's skill as a player. So a player that is awkward in real life can learn how play a socially adept character by making smart decisions about how to approach monsters instead of falling back on a diplomacy roll.

[@taryntessrog7588]

To paint a better picture, the social actions you can take with NPC/monsters are: Attack (which ends the social encounter and turns NPC hostile) Bluff Converse (which can improve the reaction roll or add bonuses to later actions) Demand Drink (offering food or booze) Gamble Honor Avoid Insult Joke Negotiate Pray Question Threaten Trade Sneak Attack (which also ends ends the social encounter and turns NPC hostile) Hire Question is the only social action that doesn't call for a roll. "Non-player characters should answer nearly all questions. It is generally more interesting if they do. There are very few circumstances that are made more interesting by refusing to talk to the players." (That doesn't mean that answers need be clear, useful, or true. That depends on the NPC reaction towards the players and their own agenda). Pray is also interesting because once you NPC becomes and Agent (the games term for reoccurring NPC's) there is a very simple rule for tracking the strengthening of the bond between player and NPC or faction that can lead to conversion to the players religion. I think this is great because, if I had a player that was trying to convert all the kobolds in a megadungeon to their religion, I would probably let them act it out but not allow any progress because it would feel like handing to much power to the player for stupid shenanigans; but having a rule for that tacked onto the bonding system absolves me of responsibility for being too generous in my rulings. I can absolve myself of responsibility and let the dice decide whether or not they are making headway on that crazy plan. And it also doesn't come without the opportunity cost because it uses up social actions, which players have a finite number of in every social encounter.

[@TheLostAdventurer]

I agree, I think. A lot of People are used to the new rules where they don’t really “role play” instead they ROLL play, bypassing the whole actual social interaction with a mere dice roll.

[@matthewkirkhart2401]

I agree and the irony is not lost on me that this common criticism of old school game play style being that it is roll play and not much role play when the truth is I find myself rolling way more dice when playing 5E than we did back in the day. There were no Perception rolls, or Persuasion rolls, or rolls to determine the NPC’s motivation or if they are lying to the PCs. The outcomes of those things were not done with a die roll. They resulted from the role playing itself. Therefore, there were no rules needed. Honestly, that was sort of the point of the game. Here was a game that did not have a board with X number of squares, or limitations to how the players could “move” their pieces. That was the point … no rules so that each situation as ruled by a referee had a unique outcome based on what the players actually had their playing pieces do. Clearly part of this is because the game came out of the wargaming community, but IMO they only included rules for events in the game like life and death situations (combat, saving throws, and how to handle the PCs being hurt by things like falling or traps), or things like magic or clerics turning undead or a dragon’s breath weapon or the gaze of a medusa that are completely fantastical aspects of the game that referees needs more specifics about how these things work, or things in the game to build tension via unpredictability, such as initiative, thief skills, finding secret doors, or opening dungeon doors. Other than that, the authors just assumed each group would handle other things that happened during play, like social interactions, their own way based on the situation and did not include rules for these activities.

[@BanditsKeep]

Just like the seeming lack of social rules can make people think combat is the only option, having social rules (with DCs) can make some people think rolling is how things are handled. I guess that’s why they say learning from playing with a group is the best way.

[@BanditsKeep]

For sure. I think when you start with a game that has you rolling for social encounters and then pick up one that does not it can look like social is not a thing. I think this is part comes from people “know how to play” and not really reading the text, just skimming it for mechanics.

[@FrostSpike]

Was a bit of a shocker to my latest 5e group when they found that I wasn't asking for many "social interaction" rolls and was going old school on them. Soon picked up their roleplaying though and now it all flows much more naturally.

[@thenash9087]

Great video. I definitely need to be better about allowing players an opportunity to RP with monsters. Not interested in product reviews, I stopped watching Ben Milton over at Questing Beast because of that, and his advice was some of my favorite, back when he made GM advice videos. I would be interested in how you go about running/prepping a module. I'm here for your great and unique perspective. I'm becoming a better GM from your advice. I don't want any product reviews though, lol.

[@BanditsKeep]

Awesome, thanks!

[@danielrowan4716]

I’d like to see you breakdown how you’d run a module. It appears you have some experience as a player and DM so your vision from both perspectives would be very helpful.

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool! Yes, I primarily run games but play as well

[@Astartes36]

As always your show makes me smile. I can’t help but laugh at the evolution of the editions. How do many of the current players make it through life in general? Are there rules on how to breath? How to wipe your butt? As you said, you just did it and made it make sense!

[@BanditsKeep]

I would hope that people can separate game mechanics from real life 😊

[@paavohirn3728]

There are kind of old school games like I think Harn and Rolemaster with rules for everything. And funny enough there's a ton of different real life instructions on how to breathe in yoga, martial arts etc. I have experience in how those can mess you up 😂 Regarding games I think people will always play their own way more or less using, skipping or modifying rules in a way that makes sense. I used to be a little but too rules loyal, but I've since seen the matrix 😎 BTW, I went from Mentzer Basic, through 2nd Ed and all the later editions to my current B/X heavily homebrewed. Oh and all those non-DnD games along the way.

[@Tysto]

Old school D&D was 50% combat & 50% tricks, traps, negotiating, & such. Very little _role-play,_ but the non-combat made it impossible to be a murder hobo, because you would encounter creatures that could kill you, so you had to run away or negotiate. 5e is 50% combat & 50% role-play, & the combat is _explicitly_ supposed to be easy enough to kill, so that’s what a lot of players do: murder everything that crosses their path. But their was a time in the early 1990s when we played 2e with 1/3 combat, 1/3 tricks, traps, & negotiation, & 1/3 role-play. I recommend going back to that. Have 3rd level heroes encounter a dragon or giants or multiple vampires & have to talk their way out of it or straight up flee.

[@BanditsKeep]

All that is player/ not system dependent- we role played plenty in the 80s 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@torinmccabe]

We all have experience with talking. We also have experience with fantasy literature where the characters are not just murder hobos. We need a system to adjudicate combat. Yet for talking and negotiation. We can just role play based on all our life talking and reading fantasy literature

[@abstractbybrian]

I never played this but I keep reading that Burning Wheel does social interactions in spades!

[@BanditsKeep]

I’ve heard that as well, though I don’t feel it’s something I “need” as my group does well without complete rules

[@whade62000]

The reason we didn't have rules for social is the same why we didn't have them for puzzles and mysteries, because a player's irl efforts and ability in how they reason or roleplay were seen as an important part of RPing irreplaceable by rules and numbers that'dd cheapen the experience. So, you'd roleplay talking and the GM'd decide if it was convincing based on how they imagined the NPCs and the player's effort. I think this remains an active discussion in RPGs, despite having Intelligence or Charisma in the game most GMs wouldn't want players to just bypass figuring out a puzzle or stop roleplaying a conversation with a roll.

[@BanditsKeep]

I’m not sure “most gms” can agree on that, but I do think many tables enjoy the player challenge vs character challenge aspect of puzzles

[@TKFKU]

Most of the games I played in centered around being able to deal with the "people" running the world. Sometimes you made deals with creatures to pass through an area. Maybe you find out those orcs don't like the goblins either? Get an enemy of my enemy sort of thing going that if turns out well, gives you a group of orc allies. Can't fight a king in his court (yeah you can, but it is not easy ha). You're killing time between going out of time for training, research, healing up etc. We were filling that time up with all sorts of social nonsense. Had a fighter get out of training each day to go be a bouncer at the tavern at night. That sort of thing, it's nothing that gets in the way of the training mechanically and gives the character a life. Not to mention all the social interactions you go through to build and run your domain at the higher levels, make sure your own lands are running smoothly. That will generally be done through diplomacy unless you run your domain like Vlad the Impaler.....which can be just as fun too. Then you go off to resume murder hoboing.

[@BanditsKeep]

Indeed

[@TheArcturusProject]

I just watched that whole ad about living with George Clooney and it was pretty great. It was all about rules for social encounters!!

[@BanditsKeep]

Oh?

[@TheArcturusProject]

Haha it wasn’t Clooney being funny saying he got put in quarantine with a stranger and the stranger got sick of him XD I think it’s made up. But definitely all “social encounters” with George

[@BanditsKeep]

@@TheArcturusProject 😂

[@jackdeth5009]

I'd love to hear your take on "When the GM is unprepared/doesn't know the rules/acts like an ass" etc. ;->

[@BanditsKeep]

Ha ha, let’s hope that doesn’t happen very often to people

[@UncleRiotous]

I'd be very interested in how you'd prep and run a module. I love watching Seth Skorkowsky doing that, seeing it for BX would be great.

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool, I may do this

[@nooctip]

THe opinion comes from two things. First skills. Theres a strength stat but no punching or swords skill, but no one says you can't punch. Theres a charisma skill but no persuade or seduce skill so people don't think of it. Second how the modules were written. There was usually no storyline so people don't think there is one. They walk into the room of the evil temple and all they know is the good guys are facing the three evil preists. Nothing is stopping you from going "Hail brothers. Lets negotiate." But the module gives no reason too.

[@BanditsKeep]

The example of play in BX shows social interaction (or an attempt at it anyway)

[@danroscigno187]

Thanks for mentioning the storytellers collective, I just joined the class. I have two weeks of catching up to do!

[@BanditsKeep]

Awesome!

[@TheK5K]

Another good video! Social encounters, oft in taverns and merchants stores, were certainly a thing back in the day, have no doubt. You may have nailed why newer edition players think otherwise based on the amount written in the rules about them. If you're going to do module videos, keep the video length about the same, high-level or broken into chunks, your call.

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks! Good advice on the video length.

[@mattm4557]

Old school games had rules for social: reaction and morale rolls. When added with RP it worked just great for a combat centered dungeon exploring game which is all d&d is. If you want a game that centers on something else, play a different system.

[@BanditsKeep]

Nah, I’ll play D&D

[@mattm4557]

@@BanditsKeep that’s like using a hammer to drive in screws. Use a screwdriver for screws and a hammer for nails: there are better tools for the job. This is one of the biggest issues in the hobby and keeps d&d as the 800 lbs gorilla when it shouldn’t be. D100 or gumshoe system used for Call of Cthulhu is better for horror or mystery games, d10 system used by white wolf is better for social intrigue games. I’d even argue that the 3d6 system used by The Fantasy Trip or the 3d6 system used for the Fantasy Age systems are better for fantasy. The 2d6 system used by Traveller does sci-fi better than star finder or spell jammer could ever hope to do. People keep refusing to play a multitude of great systems and insist on shoehorning everything through d&d’s d20 level system. It’s a detriment to the hobby. Imagine playing checkers and then refusing to ever play another board game because checkers works well enough and it’s what you started playing. That’s what too many people do in the ttrpg hobby. D&d (any edition) is not the best system out there and has tons of flaws and inadequacies. Even within fantasy I can list several of games that are better games than d&d: zweihander, DCC, dungeon world, the fantasy trip, Exalted, and Vampire Dark Ages just to name a few. Expand your mind: try something different for a change.

[@deathbare5306]

Good question, the games mechanics tell a reader what it values. B/X style game the value is on gaining treasure, fighting is a potential means to that end, as is talking, but in B/X case it is closer to the war game roots, hence no negotiation rules.

[@BanditsKeep]

I don’t agree - to me the rules explain the parts of the rules that the designers believe the players cannot work out themselves 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@deathbare5306]

@@BanditsKeep True, it’s not saying you can’t. However now we are in that space where the DMs on the spot improvisation makes or breaks the encounter. The DM has no mechanical infrastructure to lean on so it’s just made up. Snap judgement in a void. The lack of infrastructure tells the dm and players that it isn’t important or that it’s supposed to be exceptional. My opinion of course, Great discussion!

[@BanditsKeep]

@@deathbare5306 I can see that point Of view and I think that is not uncommon, thus the discussion 😊

[@paavohirn3728]

This was super interesting! I completely agree about how this is a great idea but I find it challenging to come up with this stuff on the spot. So I'm back to thinking about randomizing idea seeds in the spot. Dolmenwood campaign setting has a table about what the randomly encountered being is doing when encountered. I'm also considering using Mythic GME or Une NPC generator to give more of an open idea about what could be the monster's motivation or what could be the angle of the encounter. Both systems use two d100 tables you randomize seed words from and combine for inspiration. So the Une motivation could come up: "prepare vigilance", "spoil harmony" or "relate pride". Actually the general instruction is to roll the times so you'd combine all of those to see what comes to your mind when you apply it to the context in the game.

[@BanditsKeep]

I’m sure these random tools can help, but I believe after a bit of time, coming up with motivations becomes easier as the world is growing with your campaign.

[@paavohirn3728]

@@BanditsKeep Well yeah. I must admit I really consider myself a beginner DM even though I've done it here and there over the last 30 years. Throughout that time I've mostly been a player not DM. It has taken me a lot of time to begin realizing how not to make DMing to complicated, which has been tricky because I've had to deal with a whole lot of perfectionist self-criticism.

[@BanditsKeep]

@@paavohirn3728 I totally understand! One thing I would advise is to pre-roll on those tables and write out your random encounters to include them vs rolling it on the fly. That will help for sure!

[@paavohirn3728]

@@BanditsKeep Thanks! Yeah, I'm considering all kinds of alternatives. And also trying not to worry too much if it takes a moment or two occasionally figuring things out during play.

[@Joshuazx]

Agreed. You don't really need rules for speech. Just play your character. If you want mechanics for social interaction, there are better rules than speech checks found in D&D. Look up an article called Social InterACTION by the Angry GM.

[@BanditsKeep]

🙌🏻🙌🏻

[@grumpy_wizard_blog]

Great post. I run Swords and Wizardry most of the time and this is how I run my social interactions.

[@BanditsKeep]

Awesome! Are you using the “complete” or “white box” version?

[@wyrdbrew]

@@BanditsKeep I use complete with some house rules and pieces of stuff from AD&D and elsewhere bolted on.

[@TheArcturusProject]

Also I want that shirt sons of gygax

[@BanditsKeep]

I love this shirt

[@cameronorwin]

I was enjoying your videos about creating a mega dungeon. Are you going to return to them?

[@BanditsKeep]

Yes, I hope to do that soon - they are a bit more time consuming to create

[@kadmii]

might be amusing if the players encounter a group of orcs, cut them down, and then when they enter a new city they're accused before the judge of violating the peace (say there's a treaty between the local humans and the local orcs), and the players have to escape prison and become outlaws to avoid execution

[@BanditsKeep]

Could be an interesting twist for sure

[@Siofragames]

Another thing I can add is that social encounters can happen after combat ends. At one point my players ambushed some kobolds without bothering to talk to them. The kobolds were weak and only one lived to run away. My players chased him down and captured him to talk (they'd been under the impression the kobolds were doing something nefarious). What followed was one of my favorite social encounters filled with all kinds of moral quandaries. Eventually they let the kobold go, but they were terrified he'd lead a warband back to get revenge. I have a question about languages. Social encounters can be difficult if the NPCs and players don't speak the same language. Most rulebooks I use contain rules for how many languages players can speak and I don't want to just throw away those rules and have everything speak common. How do you generally deal with languages?

[@BanditsKeep]

True! As far as languages are concerned I typically go with the rules as they stand - this is another strength of the MU who typically has high intelligence, thus more languages. In games like BX with alignment language, this gives another more open ended option as well. That being said, one simple hack is to not require the players to pick languages until they need them. Of course once they are chosen they stick but this does pretty much guarantee one PC will speak the monster language at least early on.

[@Siofragames]

@@BanditsKeep Yeah I was thinking about going with the not picking the language until one is needed. Perhaps it's a little metagaming, but I think that's fine.

[@derekburge5294]

If I might offer a counter-offer... I don't think people see a lack of rules and assume social encounters weren't a thing, but the lack of *cool shit* they could do during a social encounter. Same problem plagues modern 5e, I'd add! If you want a player to pay attention to a particular pillar of play, you have to build in fun mechanics and cool powers to play with during the pillar.

[@BanditsKeep]

You can do (try) anything in a ttRPG - personally I don’t need mechanics to tell me what I can do so I’m not sure I can get on board with your offer 😊. Also I specifically have heard the argument that no rules = no social. I am curious though if you know if a game that gives you interesting social actions, I’m curious how they play out.

[@derekburge5294]

@@BanditsKeep I doooo know of two that have more crunchy social interactions, though one is my own ongoing project. The other is Numenera, which uses the Cypher system. Lots of neat abilities there that can alter social encounters.

[@BanditsKeep]

@@derekburge5294 oh cool! I have the pdf of Numenera I’ll have to read through it

[@derekburge5294]

@@BanditsKeep I cannot recommend Numenera highly enough. Full 10/10. My only complaint is that the Effort system is poorly explained.

[@justturbo7015]

Very interested in a video where you breakdown modules and talk about running/prepping.

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool!

[@rolanejo8512]

Woo hoo. Some insight on a sorely ignored topic.

[@BanditsKeep]

Glad you enjoyed 😊

[@rolanejo8512]

@@BanditsKeep Always do. When will we see some more Crypts of Indormancy? The actual play and the podcast is helping me understand ODD with Chainmail.

[@BanditsKeep]

Ah yes! We recorded another session! I need to upload that. Thanks for reminding me

[@VioletDeliriums]

i will hypothesize that it a sort of cultural thing for those younger than generation x who enjoyed far more independence as children. perhaps the structure that was provided for these generations form helicopter parents and play dates and wearing helmets when riding bikes and video games with ready-made worlds and heavy rules crunch telling them what they can (and cannot) do has affected their framework for understanding the concept of "play," and if there is no hard structure (e.g., a rules structure), then they cannot imagine how to make it happen....also, i think you hit the nail on the head when you said "we read books." we did not consume our fantasy from video games, we created our own games based upon what we read. i remember someone in our group got heavily criticized for not reading enough fantasy when i was in high school!!!! ... discuss

[@paavohirn3728]

Great thumbnail!

[@BanditsKeep]

Thank You!

[@andrewvanhorne4359]

Where does this very pleasant thumbnail come from?

[@BanditsKeep]

The illustration is by Artus Scheiner from 1920

[@andrewvanhorne4359]

@@BanditsKeep Thanks, I'll check out the artist. Great style and a lot of charm. Excellent choice.

[@ajaxplunkett5115]

Another excellent video. I hope you continue coming up with Different aspects of old school gaming but I can see the appeal of TSR module reviews. But seriously , you may have to do a video on a Most underrated " Appendix N "for RPGs THE Moldvay basic- Inspirational Source Material on page B62. I think there are only four authors from the DMG(1979) not listed but a ton more authors and books added- great fantasy inspiration.

[@BanditsKeep]

This is true! That was my “real” Appendix N as a kid!

[@everthingtotal8798]

Wouldn't it dawn on every player, that in an imaginary world (vast and full,) talking and dealing with denizens in any number of ways is imminent? I want to know how someone could only think the game was to kill every single thing in it. Vote: bring us through a module!

[@BanditsKeep]

I am not sure, but if you came straight from board games perhaps?

[@christopherbollinger86]

I would also say it depends on the player. I have a couple of old school players that started on 2e and one of them is a murder hobo the other isn't.

[@BanditsKeep]

True, murder hobos have always existed (and still do) I don’t think the edition matters.

[@MagiofAsura]

3:50 Modern d20 games need this codified. Players only see fight even if the fight would be deadly

[@BanditsKeep]

Why do you think that is?

[@iratevagabond204]

I've always done roll, then roleplay the interaction according to the results. I'm not really an OSR guy, as I believe there should be a seperation from player and character; the player's skill or lack of skill in something doesn't matter.

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool, so you act out the scene based on what the die decide? Seems fun

[@iratevagabond204]

@@BanditsKeep Correct. I run games like Hârnmaster, Rolemaster Unified, Reign: A Game of Lords and Leaders, and Hackmaster 5e; so stuff on the crunchier side, with more developed mechanics for pretty much all interactions. I'm a fan of the consistency in rulings that complex systems support, especially as learning tools for my children and their peers. For several years I ran campaigns for 5th grade, 6-8th, and 9-12th with the cooperation of teachers that aimed to help struggling students earn extra credit in an engaging manner. For the first two age groups I used Greg Stolze's "Reign", and for the highschool students I used Hârnmaster. When I switched my children to homeschooling at the onset of the lockdowns/pandemic, I stopped running the groups, but luckily two of my previous students picked up the mantle of GM and took over for me - both had graduated with over 3.0 GPAs, after having struggled school and their home lives.

[@FinnMcRiangabra]

Too many people seem to think that RPG stands for Roll Playing Game, not Role Playing Game. The role playing was always a part of it, but more of the work was put on the players rather than the characters. Players had to convince the monsters/enemies using actual words, improv, and role playing rather than just say, "I make an intimidation check."

[@BanditsKeep]

Instead we say “I intimidate the monster!“

[@FinnMcRiangabra]

@@BanditsKeep Oh, yes. So sorry. Much like, Player: I persuade the shop keeper to let me have that rope for free. I rolled a 12 plus 8, so that's twenty." DM: The shop keeper likes your story but will not give you the rope for free. Player: But, I got a 20!?!!! So why does D&D5e have a DM problem?

[@darksider111]

I can some what understand that the more combat Orientated Players would think that, Because there is not may rules for Social Interactions so in their heads this means that is designed for fighting When a book on raising children was released in Victorian times there were 3 pages on breast feeding and 50 on bottle feeding, so people thought that breast feeding was not the way to go because there were so few pages - People be dumb

[@IdiotinGlans]

I am fine either way but getting a bigger analysis how to run a classic module could be very helpful if I ever decide to run them myself.

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool

[@ZorValachan]

I know it's probably not your cup of tea, but the points you made about people saying Old School D&D was just combat and not social because of the rules focusing on combat was the same argument people used to say D&D 4th edition was just combat and tactics and not D&D, but instead a World of Warcraft/video game called D&D. Some of the most creative Role-playing and social encounters in my group was with 4th edition because we weren't bound by a tome of rules dictating our social encounters.

[@BanditsKeep]

There seems to be much talk of 4e in the air, I wonder if in the end people will realize they did not give it a proper chance.

[@lbur7119]

The lack of rules for social encounters is a huge feature of old school D&D. Instead of rolling some dice PCs have to engage with the fiction. The same could be said for skills like perception, investigation, etc. that are mainstays in modern editions.

[@BanditsKeep]

Indeed!

[@FrostSpike]

Back in the day (very early 1980s) we added in a Perception attribute (from WD17 I believe) that helped arbitrate that sort of "Did you spot/find it?" question. Worked like Thieves' Skills but available to everyone. Played it for years (decades) in 1e and 2e across various groups and games. Worked very well without being intrusive on the storytelling/fiction aspect.

[@lbur7119]

​@@FrostSpike I have experimented with that myself. I find it better not to use it personally. I give the PCs the benefit of the doubt if they actually search an area and or ask questions about the environment. I find that the least amount of time spent referring to character sheets the better.

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool

[@BanditsKeep]

I can see that

[@RIVERSRPGChannel]

I know in groups I’ve played in there was always Roleplaying too

[@BanditsKeep]

Awesome

[@MattEvans529]

You say that there aren't really rules for it, but literally right under the Party Actions section you highlight is the monster reaction table with rules for how to determine whether or not monsters want to talk or fight. ;-)

[@BanditsKeep]

Those are not rules on social interaction, they are to determine the basic vibe of the monsters- of course this is used as part of social, the rest is your imagination

[@MattEvans529]

@@BanditsKeep "Those are not rules on social interaction" Respectfully disagree... 'Any creature that is not a player character is called a monster.' -B30. The reaction table is very much meant to be used to see how even human NPCs react to what PCs say to them, if the DM is unsure how to react from strictly RP. Extrapolating further from the "Retainer Reactions" section on B21 (which was called "NPC Reactions" on page B7 under the description of Charisma), when using the Monster Reaction table against non monstrous (though still technically by the book "monsters") NPCs the DM can/should adjust the roll by how the PCs present themselves, their reputation, etc. So, I argue that the rules for social interaction are 100% present, they're just not spelled out as such so I think a lot of folks overlook them as being what they are.

[@BanditsKeep]

@@MattEvans529 fair enough.

[@BanditsKeep]

@@MattEvans529 I probably should be more clear - the social rules I’m talking about here are things like fast talk, persuasion, deception etc - specific social “moves” vs an over arching “reaction “

[@VengerSatanis]

Would love to get your thoughts on this... how could a DM mechanically, via the system, boost social interaction in one's campaign? I'm talking about rules to facilitate roleplaying above and beyond exploration and combat. Thanks, hoss!

[@BanditsKeep]

Great topic

[@VengerSatanis]

@@BanditsKeep Thanks! I'm currently wracking my brain, so would love to crowdsource solutions.

[@estelaplateada4]

It would be really interesting to see a video on how you tackle a module

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool, thanks!

[@thunderstorm9541]

Hey dude, where do you get these thumbnails from? Cool videos and cool thumbnail haha

[@BanditsKeep]

I try to put the artist in the descriptions each week, I just love looking around for cool classic art

[@chrislee8970]

Yet many modern/current players, when faced with choices in an open world, look like deer in headlights or depend on a die roll to skip the "boring talky bit"?

[@BanditsKeep]

This has not been my experience

[@aqualust5016]

Crazy to come to the conclusion that they basically didn’t play at all and are just using game information to prop up this fantasy that they were as involved as other players. As a starter in the 4e times I’ve had to trust everyone at their word about “AD&D was best” and how gritty it was.

[@BanditsKeep]

4e is very interesting to me, I was out of gaming when it was released - recently picked up the 3 core books to have a look

[@Frederic_S]

I have very experianced players that try to negotiatae with all sentient beeings. They only figth demons, undead and abominations without preceding diplomacy :D

[@BanditsKeep]

Awesome

[@jonwooldridge3766]

I would really like to see a break down of an entire module.

[@BanditsKeep]

Cool!

[@SolonarTM]

Dave Areneson.

[@BanditsKeep]

Indeed

[@krystal2423]

I would say a video on how you would run the module would be interesting, but whatever you choose I will ... like comment and (stay) subscribe to bandit keeps actual play and will (keep rung) ring the notification bell to be updated on future videos. As everyone should, in my humble opinion.

[@BanditsKeep]

Thanks Krystal 😊

[@williamcunningham9782]

Good content.

[@BanditsKeep]

Thank You!

[@Sierra99]

Love your vids! I’m trying to learn how a b/x/osr-style game; for random encounters do you use the tables in the book and just go with the rolls? Or are there better tools/tables/methods online? My apologies if you’ve already covered this

[@BanditsKeep]

Ideally you want to create a random monster list yourself based on the location. But in a pinch or in a more “random” type dungeon I have used the lists in the book.

[@Sierra99]

@@BanditsKeep That makes sense, thanks!

[@deathbare5306]

Oh and what’s that class you are taking? I’d be interested in taking that as well.

[@BanditsKeep]

www.storytellingcollective.com/ it’s the writing your first adventure course.

[@armorclasshero2103]

It's amazing to me that modern players think old school is all about combat when 5e has less than 2 pages about social interaction, and exactly zero class features for social manipulation.

[@BanditsKeep]

Skills are the reason I’d say - a decent number of them are “social”

[@armorclasshero2103]

Would rather see how you'd run

[@BanditsKeep]

Awesome, there are a bunch of actual plays here 😊

[@DrDeathpwnsu]

So I was playing a game with these dudes, and the DM is like OK you meet this king and he gives you a quest. And I'm like nah, we want to be paid upfront if this is a king should be np and why would he think we wouldn't just disappear otherwise... Cut to everyone acts like I'm being unreasonable, I'm being disruptive, I'm like no that's not realistic, I'm right, OK roll... Nat 20 no joke, OK the king gives you access to any non magical weapon to pick" then it just fell apart after that... Am I wrong? Is that unrealistic?

[@BanditsKeep]

That would entirely depend on the quest and your characters. Though in most cases, you don’t talk back to the king unless you are a well known and powerful adventurer IMO

[@DrDeathpwnsu]

OK, this is super easy. This is a foreign king and we have traveled there on our own volition because he's offering a job. How do you think that works? He's just an unreasonable tyrant who hoards his vast wealth and is all powerful and be feared, but he waits till you show up to help him? Fine, then a few low level adventurers would be useless to him if he commands such power. There's no world that makes sense to anyone but a complete sycophant.

[@DrDeathpwnsu]

@BanditsKeep Unless I'm wrong of course, you think? Maybe it is me. Do you think if we drew out a ven diagram of guys who pick up on social cues and nuance, and then guys who run D&D campaigns, do you think that would be a very big overlap in general?

[@Dinofaustivoro]

Rules are just for the parts we DONT want to role

[@BanditsKeep]

Indeed

[@Alkis05]

But you mention something that exemplifies the problem. You said you typically goes with the expectation of the party. That is a problem, tension happens when someone is opposing what you want to do, not just go along. Also, if a character has high charisma and persuasion, that is it. That is the only thing a player need to deal with the situation. Plus, basically only sourcerer and paladins have any skill there. In other games you have separate skills for each of the kinds of social interaction (intimidation, diplo, oratory, etc.., which might be suitable for some situations but not others. Also, there are few mechanics that reward roleplay in DnD, except maybe narrative ones. Players don't do anything without some little bribe like artha, fate or watherver points. Plus, monsters being your main type of social interaction? come on. They are poor substitute for more meaningful social encounters. But that is ok. DnD doesn't need to be good in that regard. It is what it is.

[@BanditsKeep]

None of my players expect anything besides in game gains when they interact socially. I don’t run bards or Paladins etc.

[@danroscigno187]

Regarding module reviews: Bleh. If you are running a module or playing a module then a few minutes on what you like / don't like and how you changed it would be cool. I honestly hate the "let's flip through a module that I have never even read through page by page for 30 minutes". My favorite type of videos are the ones where people talk about their experience in creating something, or their thought process / approach.

[@BanditsKeep]

Oh yes. I certainly would not go at it cold.