DAC SHOOTOUT REVEAL ! and commentary.

[@audiofun999]

I have MSB Premier in my system, and listen to music for hours every single day. Yes, it is highly resolving, precise, very low noise. These exact qualities help extract all emotions and soul from the recordings. Once I got MSB I discovered and started to enjoy a lot of music, which I’d thought was boring. I would never call my DAC analytical, but I am sure it can seem to sound like that if there are other issues in the system: power noise, network noise, distortion in the amplification, etc. You get analytical sound when high level of details is done wrong. The DAC should never scream “hey, look at all these details!”, but still everything in the recording must be reproduced accurately, otherwise emotions and energy will be lost. However if you have a highly resolving DAC your other components, such as amp and speakers, must be capable to reproduce all this new information. When I first brought MSB into my system, I had mid-level tube amp and preamp and they did not work well with the new DAC, the sound was somewhat “analytical”. Only when I upgraded my amplification, cleaned my network and power I was finally able to hear what the MSB is capable of: the sound as close to the real thing as you can possibly get.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Thats great...Id love to hear it ... Im open to MSB redeeming itself. As you said, it needs to have well matched associated gear. I feel that maybe the Wilsons were an issue as well... Never liked them or Magico..

[@ychilds99]

No way! The level of note decay on A Certain Other DAC was unlike anything I'd ever heard. I would have sworn the second DAC would have been the MSB. Thank you for introducing me to Playback Designs. What a lesson.

[@stoyanyorgov]

Me too! It sounded(through my crapy headphones) much better then the first one!!

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Well remember to call me when you want to buy one ! But it's funny that the very next comment refers to decay when I just explained it above. LOL. How crazy

[@ychilds99]

@@OCDHIFiGuy I will absolutely give you a call when I am ready to buy. Alas, the Playback Designs is out of my price range. But, I am considering the Audiobyte Hydra stack when I am ready to make a move. Thanks again for all of your great guidance.

[@fredflintstone8048]

One thing that I've always been able to appreciate is that there's no real substitute for live music. At least not so far in my own personal experience. There is a presence in live music (most noticeable with acoustic music unamplified) that I've never heard in any hifi system. I will agree that there are many factors in hifi and some is much better than others without a doubt. But walking into a bar, restaurant, club, even before you can see the musician/s your ears tell you right away it's a live performance and not some recording being played.

[@202One]

Live music/concerts since the 70's, can't replace it! ✌🍾

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Yes Fred, you're absolutely correct. The cymbal is always my first cue. If you are anywhere near Atlanta come by my place and get a live music experience.

[@JingoLoBa57]

Agree, and the Japanese seem to do Café live and Hi-Fi based audio in both cases better than most…

[@fabien7079]

Yep, when you attend a live acoustic music show, the sounds of all instruments are all blended together and you can still hear where are the instruments in a natural way...

[@glenncornwall4331]

The playback design was definitely the better dac. It was totally natural. What’s really amazing is that the playback designs was actually even more detailed without losing the cohesiveness of the musical presentation.

[@luisdimarco5102]

Hello, first thanks for your videos they are reveling. You have recommend Jeff Rowland 125 as a very good power amplifier for people that have a limited budget. Could you say what is your recommendation for a DAC having the same criteria. Cheers.

[@hartonotandjoeng2314]

How about other MSB dac models? Any model you prefer/like more ?

[@scottzahn3298]

Have you tried Octo Dac 8 Stereo? I can only find a few reviews but all exceptional. Stereophile rated it Class A and comparable to $15k MBL. My curiosity is peeked.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

I have not, I'm sorry!

[@KitaristChannel]

Love your work!!! Would be interesting if you could compare all these expensive DACS to more budget DACS so we could hear how much difference there really is :)

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

I've done that. Look in my history. 14 DAC comparison. 3 part video

[@lbrizzle18]

Everything you said here is spot on. I also felt that #2 sounded more a live band. It is actually offensive that MSB reference dac costs $80K

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

And the one tested is one down from the top-of-the-line which is $150K

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

I would have to agree. Thanks for your support!

[@stoyanyorgov]

The sound of the MSB dac is exactly the sound that some audiophiles are looking for! They are obsessed by the idea to get as much detail air and micro dynamics as they can from the equipment that they forgot to listen to the music!

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Da ! You are correct ! Some people like a short demo over and over.

[@stoyanyorgov]

@@OCDHIFiGuy I have a friend who listens only 10-12 songs max😢

[@dmitriyshpilchin4698]

I don't have an opportunity to listen to live those amazing DACs in my region. So, Mickey let me say a huge thanks for your amazing reviews! Both DACs are sounds incredible! The shootout is absolutely great! I listened shootout playback on Meze Empyrean and Focal Stellia via MacBookPro 2019. On my own taste the first one sounds more natural. But my choice is the second one because it sounds more pleasant for me, it seems like performers are play fore me personally infront of me in my room.

[@fernandocosta5567]

Hi, Mikey. In your opinion a dac of 20k like the playback males Sense In a rig of 20k replacing a 3500 euros matrix sabre 3 pro?thanks.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

It depends on what you are looking for. The last DAC you will ever buy ? Then yes..

[@rajendrabiswas]

I need to start my audiophile journey need advice on good DAC .. for headphones

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Dangerous Music.. I have one for sale ...

[@markhampton7559]

Mikey, I went back and listened to the comparison again. My take is the MSB renders well the front on the musical note. But, it lacks the mid and trailing harmonics of the musical note. Sometimes, people tweak their system to create this effect, and they are excited by the "increase in detail". But, usually, it is not really an increase in detail, it is the lessening of the mid and trailing note harmonics. Listen closely to the individual notes, and it become obvious. Particularly in the piano. Piano should have a rich decay of each note. That is largely missing with the MSB DAC.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

True Mark. You nailed it.

[@donaldnance1135]

Hi, they may claim it’s named after “most significant bit” but in reality it is named after the original founder. My uncle was friends with Mark S. Braswell (I may have misspelled the last name). The current owner, I was told, tricked Mark out of the company. I agree with your assessment. I immediately heard the MSB on the first song. I used to own the MSB PowerDac and I know that signature. The Playback Design murdered the MSB.

[@kongwee1978]

I pick the second DAC because of the piano sound. In a vocal song, piano is one of the least wet signal instrument. There are some standard ways to mic them so that you don't already do much to mix them. Vocal is the one that is highly wet signal mix in the song.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Good ear !

[@kongwee1978]

@@OCDHIFiGuy I played piano before, see people mixed piano, and play piano sample. Just accumulation of experince.

[@danielesbordone1871]

A better sound for $60,000 less money. That's why I think ten times before dishing out any kind of big money.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Great, Im glad to have helped show this then ..

[@ivanhardy2288]

Nice commentary on the comparison. We have a very similar taste in preferred DAC presentation. From my visit to your room you discovered I was looking for micro dynamic shading which requires superior detail retrieval. But I also needed to hear if the Playback Designs could groove. (If It ain’t got no soul it can’t groove). The Playback Designs can groove, rock and can absolutely convey delicate emotion. It also does all the normally talked about hifi gymnastics stuff with ease which it should at its price point. I auditioned the DCS Rossi with clock and I heard a very hard detail that could be attractive to some but not with me. It shortly became irritating and it did not groove. It’s tight fisted control was impressive but not engaging. So I can totally trust your judgment on the MSB. I was never able to hear a MSB anything myself as my local dealer did not have one available. But what irks me before hearing it myself is the packaging. You have to a pay base price for a model and then add possibly up to 100% or more money to get the most out of that model? Maybe the add ons are not all sonically related as I did not get deep into researching after a certain point, especially after hearing the Playback Designs. I just know Jay’s reference starts at $49.5k and as it sits now in his room it’s $80k? And there’s another base model above that. All of us who’ve been into high end audio are not surprised by big numbers regardless of our individual means. But we are allowed to scratch our heads sometimes. I’m ordering the Playback Designs Dream from Mickey.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Its on order for you Ivan, and you will never thirst for a killer DAC again ! I saw you taking notes in your notebook that's clearly been on the road with you to many Demo sessions... I can see you thoughtfully and deeply listened while you were here. When it comes to music listening , we are cut from the same cloth, same as our other PBD buyers ... ;-)

[@Benvos]

I have to assume the differences you describe can only be heard when listening in person. The video of the two DACs didn’t show up that kind of difference to me. However, what it did show was the fact both sounded incredible (to me), so why would you spend $80k when you can get that performance from $20k.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

There it is.

[@redleather420]

I agree with you. Which is why I like tubes. However I think is speakers The Wilson audio have a bit of a etched or accentuated high-end and do you think that maybe with a more linear or not as forward speaker the ultra high resolution of the DAC would be more suitable for a speaker that is not trying to impress you. In which case the MSB would be a good choice to get all the detail and not any of the annoyances or maybe a tube preamp in the chain. Although the price is so astronomical, it might just be better to forget about it instead of trying to make it work

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

I'm thinking of Tom Brokaw saying red leather yellow leather. LOL sure you make a good point. I still don't like Wilson sound although I do appreciate the overbuilt nature of the cabinets. Absolutely if you have a sleepy speaker than MSB might be the perfect thing. I'm basing my opinion listening through a certain amplifier and Wilson speakers

[@kasperautumn1079]

I’m new to the audio world and I’m looking for a good dac that captures the magic of the music. Any suggestions?

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

What's your budget Kasper ? I'll give you the best I know at that price.

[@kasperautumn1079]

@@OCDHIFiGuy Under $1500 Gonna use it for headphones mostly for music and movies

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

@@kasperautumn1079 Dangerous Music "The Source" $998. Best ive found under $2K, made in USA by a legit company and ill buy it back if you want to move up. Can ship one now.

[@johncarroll6367]

Good on Ya Mikey! I am one of the rare people with auditory "synesthesia". I see music and voice in my mind's eye as abstract forms and colors moving through space and time. The MSB dac was metallic in form and sound, as well as appearing artificial in character. Your dac reproduced instruments in vivid colors, as well as in voice, in the forms I am familiar to "seeing" in natural live music. As you said the 22k dac embarrassed the 80k dac. Keep on truckin'! Best regards, John Charles Carroll Peace!

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Thank you JC, we both see the music, it makes comparisons like this so much easier...

[@varindersingh7309]

@@OCDHIFiGuy Try ecdesigns R or S DAC .. will outclass even playback .. R cost 1200 Euro and S costs 3000 Euro plus no amplification needed for S model

[@carlos2bass]

Hi Mickey, have you heard the Aqua dacs from Italy?

[@JingoLoBa57]

I love the DAC inside my ARC Ref CD9 player when feeding digital in by coaxial. It’s way better than any DAC I’ve had including PS Audio PerfectWave or Lampizator Amber III. Of course it’s a tube CD player with a full complement of tubes serving power and audio circuits. It has achieved a height I hadn’t heard or imagined until now.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Fired up !! Thats all you could hope for !

[@JingoLoBa57]

@@OCDHIFiGuy you bet Mikey finally this is an end-game result. Just reading and watching vids like yours helped me give this connection a shot. Great result. 👍👏

[@gleamtarrest6310]

Awesome! That seems like a piece that stands up to anything! So what we need to know now is more about Play Back Designs- more pieces. Do they have any DAC's around $3k?

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

No sir they don't, I will be working on a re-issue of the 6K piece for my hi-fi tribe. Next year there will be a 12 K piece and that's the entry-level.

[@cleanerpath94]

Great video again Mikey! Thank you for sharing your valuable, informed opinion

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Thanks CP 94, I appreciate your support !

[@careymartin7330]

Very well put. I’m on board with Mike in as far as musicality and the whole picture. I did pic the 1st DAC but only barely. However listening to KZbin videos is a very poor way to make that determination especially on an iPad with headphones. I did feel the 1st Dac had a bit more detail but the only way to really know how the music would affect you is to hear it in person. I’m sure Mike has the better take on this since he was there. Thanks for the video I’m sure if I was there I’d come to the same conclusion. Once again the most expensive isn’t always the best. Thank you and Keep of the good work.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Thanks Carey, it is hard to hear over KZbin. I like the sound of music and realistic sonic

[@llylep]

I am waiting for the Saturday Night Live skit on expensive DAC’s. This video will hopefully be the template. YMMV.

[@Roudaki677]

We’ll said Mike, enjoyed the banter with Jay. Did you all listen to real music (as you do often: Gap Band, Toto, Boz) off the camera?

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Well the last song in our shootout was Buddy Miles playing the Neil Young song down by the river. That's some real music. Adele's new album is pretty good music too !

[@ychilds99]

BTW, how does Jay feel about this revelation? I ask, because he visits the subject of overpaying for DACs in some of his past videos. I have the utmost respect for Jay.

[@brunorivademar5356]

I bet he's got a different opinion than Mike

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Id say ask Jay, because I can not speak for him. He did say in his vid he did not feel there was $60K of difference and he did agree that $22K for playback designs was worth the full $22K price..

[@geminijinxies7258]

You're right. The MSB do have a more typical audiophile presentation while the PD is more real or analoge sounding. That said. I felt the timing was better on the MSB so would still pick that one ..if it wasn't for the crazy high price. It's MSB vs MSRP!

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Interesting that you would choose timing as higher priority than something that sounds real. But I'm becoming aware that some people like sonic for other things than realism. I thought everybody would want realism. So I learned something from this visit that was pretty profound.

[@audiofun999]

To me precise reproduction of transients is a huge part of realism. The sound of snare drums is the first indicator: it can be very close to a real thing on a great system. If transients are smoothed over the music won’t sound live and engaging.

[@geminijinxies7258]

​@@OCDHIFiGuy Well. It's a crucial part of the musical performance and a lot of the feeling in the music comes from the timing. The MSB just did that very important part better I think. For me it's more about which DAC is doing the musicians skills justice than the sound itself. If that makes sense. Edit: Forgot to add that of course the compressed KZbin video could add or mask things compared to in the listening room. Take my judgement with a grain of salt I guess.

[@felinthorn4977]

See Mikey that’s the thing! My digital rig is not crazy money… 47labs flatfish & gemini dac, Classe pre, Vintage Mcintosh MC2255 amp, Tweaked Spatial Audio M3 Turbo S speakers, all properly integrated into room. It just plays beautiful music! Hours upon hours of delight everytime I sit down in the music room. 👍👍👍

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Then youre there Felin ! Thats great !!

[@stephenbarnes8817]

There must be much more able to be heard in the room than was able to be heard on KZbin. Having said that, I knew what Mikes opinion would be before the comparison began. People have their own predispositions to certain sounds, or products. It’s natural and we all do it to some extent. If what I heard on KZbin is the same as I heard in the room, I could not justify the price difference. I suspect the difference is greater than that though. I most certainly cannot hear where Mike is coming from about the difference in what he heard. I was surprised at the comments and negativity about MSB and the customers who purchase their equipment. I do think there’s room for both products and the people who enjoy each and their opinions are just as valid to each of them. Will we get a video with Jays thoughts on the comparisons?

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Hi Stephen, absolutely there's more to be heard in the room. I understand what Jay's rig is all about, we call it hi-fi sounding. What I didn't understand is that some people actually want this, and there's nothing wrong with that. I simply prefer musicality over technicality. The people who enjoy live music and are music lovers could hear the difference clearly in the 2 DACs. I told nobody which was which, but my clients texted me asking which DAC is the "certain other DAC" ... As they thought it was clearly better. This is after 20+ years of trained listening. So to some it may seem small but to those who are seasoned listeners and live music people, the difference is quite clear. In no way does my opinion disparage Jay or his rig whatsoever. Jay's completely independent of any hi-fi system and is a friend of mine. But if I think he's getting hustled on some hi-fi I'll try and show him a different way. Then he can listen and make his own choice. But you are correct my choice was clear immediately.

[@stephenbarnes8817]

@@OCDHIFiGuy two ways of looking at the same picture as you noted. Some feel the musical approach isn’t true to the source, and modifies what was intended. Some feel that having the most resolution and detail is the better and more true way. Of course that might allow you to hear every imperfection in either the recording, or the media itself if physical. Too much can lead to an etched sound also. I myself prefer to hear as much detail as possible, without invoking the etch gods. When it comes to my guitar amps, I enjoy both the sweet tones, and the detailed ones, each has its place. Less so in audio playback for me. I let the artist determine what he wanted me to hear as much as my equipment allows it. I do enjoy listening to the sweeter side when it’s other peoples money I’m listening with, lol. If money were unlimited, I’d have a bit of everything.

[@johnsimmons5056]

So I am clear...was the playback designs DAC number 1 ??

[@Nightjar726]

Finally someone who can see when a DAC doesn’t have cohesiveness. I’ve been saying that for years for some DACs. Some DACs have that cohesive wall of sound. Because musical instruments and a piece of music is based on harmony. This harmony creates a whole. That whole is the music , and good DACZs have this. Bullshit DACs have that sound where it feels like the musicans are sitting 20 feet from each other. And other thing How much better can these super expensive DACs get? For example the Benchmark DAC3 is considered a great DAC which is transparent. Not saying that , DAC don’t sound different they all do. But if these expensive DACs sound that much better, then one is lying. When I say lying, one must be enhancing the audio somehow. Hope you get what I’m saying man. Love your vids.

[@Steveh817]

I preferred the second dac’s sound when it came to the acoustic guitar in Careless Whisper and the piano, drum-play in the jazz piece. The brushes and cymbals were believable. Since I’m not a critical listener, I could live with either presentation. What do I know anyway…my speakers haven’t disappeared yet. Good stuff. Very entertaining.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Thanks pops for taking it at face value, entertainment. At this point our whole lives to become a mockery, so why not make fun of it. ? lol

[@Steveh817]

@@OCDHIFiGuy Exactly. Life is too short. Have fun and enjoy the music. The wife listens through those Alexa/Echo doohickeys and I through old birch plywood horns.

[@DS-pb1hh]

Yes, I heard a clear difference between those two DACs. The PD sounded natural and very transparent. I liked it very much! MSB sounded to harsh (over my headphones).

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

That's what I heard while there.

[@groovesick]

I was not there, so I can’t agree or disagree with you. However, what if the track you heard was highly processed (i.e. combining many instruments recorded separately instead of recording a whole band live), wouldn’t (in that case) the MSB perspective be more accurate? That being said, I agree with your general sentiment that more resolution is superfluous if it (in the end) leaves you analyzing sounds rather than getting carried away by the music.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

I will do a video on sound and listening and accuracy versus analytical and when it crosses the line and becomes absolutely accurate sterile synthetic sound.

[@williampearson4968]

I agree Mikey, PD is more musical. Something seems wrong or even wasteful if someone feels the need to spend $80K or even $22K for only one piece of the HiFi puzzle to enjoy toe tapping music! Of course, this choice is for the developed world as places like Cuba where the government determines meager $110 a month salaries - HiFi is forever beyond their reach and an audiophile is persona non grata.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Sad story William, my family escaped Castro...where there is no HiFi they make up for it with live music and dancing. You cant kill the spirit of music in a Latino..

[@garbisrobert4848]

You just made me subscribe to your channel when i heard about musicality. It is a thing most avoid these times. TY and KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK !!! 🙂

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Thanks for your support !

[@99fulham99]

My ambition is to treat myself to a Chord Dave - The originator Rob Watts is a very impressive designer and his detailed explanation of the DAC protocol and the whole D/A science is worth a view

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

There you go ! Do it ! Mscaler and power supply Mod ... only like $40K.... I can beat it for $24...(Playback Designs) we have done this exact comparison.. the most pimped Chord Dave we could make failed in a comparison with the design by Andreas Koch who is the Grandfather of Digital music conversion .

[@mesonto]

Interesting take on both of those DACs, however you completely don't understand the intention of the fashion runway. But back to the DACs, you're lucky enough to hear both with the same equipment backing them and in the same room. It is so difficult for most of us to buy equipment because we never get a chance to take it home and audition it in our system and surroundings.

[@freeradical431]

Must watch= Six Million Dollar Man- Bigfoot Directors Cut. Happy Holidays!

[@thehighend4545]

Want to add that "soul" back? Run it through the reel to reel. I have a Mutec 005 DAC, using a HEGEL P20 to flavor it up before sending to the R2R. Played back through a 300B preamp. We have A/B'd this setup against 20-30k DACS, this blew it away, EVERYTIME. The fact is, most DAC's are EXTREMELY over-priced and differences are minimal 2k vs 30k DACS. Now if you spent that, I am sure you think it is worlds better. Confirmation bias of your wallet is a powerful thing.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Come over here for testing. My DAC is indistinguishable from R2R playback and I can also A to D on the fly..

[@thehighend4545]

@@OCDHIFiGuy Sounds like what reel to reel? You do know what tape you use has a great effect on sound signature, right? So SM468 sounds like your DAC, the most "analogue" of the new ones? Or using 900 series, which has no sound signature so it would sound like your DAC, with more analogue depth?

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

@@thehighend4545 yeah bro, I've got a Studer A80 completely upgraded electronics, Flux Magnetics heads, and Nick Doshi outboard tape head pre. Plus I've got a King Cello head pre and a NOS Otari MX 5050-III not the harsh tape handling of the II. My A to D is a Playback Designs.. same as my DAC. MoFi just bought my DAC and A to D for thier archiving, so I guess I may know a little bit more than you think. Merging Technology lost immediately in the MoFi sound test. The Playback Designs DAC is King. Period. Nothing can touch it. And it's only 24 measley K. My tapes are Originals and on 201, 456, 226, 206... 3M stuff, Ampex tape... not RMG new shit ..

[@marclajeunesse3890]

WoW ! How do you guys do that ? If I listen to a music system and if it's sounds good I'm grooving on the tunes and forget that I'm listening for flaws or gems . Mind you the kush might have something to do with that also .

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Naaaaaaa.... Not the Hindu Kush, Nor the Grandaddy Purps, nor Agent Orange , Girl Scout Cookies..or any other ..lol

[@laurelhardy4064]

I think the best digital playback on the market today are the Audio-Note CDT-6 transport and the fifth element dac, but at nearly $250,000 they should be.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

At nearly $250,000 there's very few people that own it in the world, so its not a tangible option.

[@kaap009]

I experienced the same thing a few years back. I sold my dac just to afford my dream preamp (almost impossible to get one)... I'll call this DAC A... later, I got a loan (form a hifishop) on one of the most talked-about dac's online... "giant killer!"... "band-for-your-buck!" etc.. call this DAC B... Was excited to try it... In short, after one week, I sent it back.. I could not stand it.. No musical connection.. no joy!!... no sense of flesh and human contact. Female voices where tragic. IMO!! So what did I do... got another DAC A.. and it's still in my rig. It's old as shit.. no high res, no USB input.. but at 16/44.1.. it fuxxing rules.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Kai, You are part of us music lovers... you know what sounds like music

[@kaap009]

@@OCDHIFiGuy maybe… but I have for years felt like an outsider… I do in many cases disagree with what other audophiles likes/approves. Anyway, keep up the good work.

[@edg5367]

The MSB has no texture what so ever. That’s just me

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Me too..

[@KB-os6lh]

@@OCDHIFiGuy Me three!

[@vcp93]

You and Jay's massive "what-off?" 🤣🤣🤣

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

LOL. Im Dennis the Menace.... Clown.... Here to make you laugh .... lol

[@Simon-dn9kv]

I don't find it appropriate to call MSB names. If there's a market for a product and a company addresses this market there is nothing wrong with that. That being said, I was surprised by how much I don't like all the detail being shoved in my face by the MSB. Maybe the synergy of Jays components just isn't right one for our ears.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Sioma, you are absolutely right.. It was poor judgement on my behalf. Its how I feel but probably too much for the public.

[@michaelmityok1001]

For me the MSB even through KZbin on my headphones was audibly better IMHO. But crucially not 3 times or even twice as good. Diminishing returns is a thing folks no matter what Steve Guttenberg or other hifi KZbinrs say (btw I like Steve, it's just sometimes I don't agree with him).

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Okay Michael, another guy for analytical sound !

[@DBravo29er]

I really loved seeing you two hanging out in person. Very high quality TV.

[@s.t.e.r.e.o.]

1 was bright/shrill to me.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

same here.

[@wa2368]

Straight talk with great analogies Mike...Thank you!

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Sorry to be so direct....

[@geir8849]

I thought the second Dac was superior. It even came across as more resolved here. More fleshed out with better textures, more smooth and musical. I though that was the MSB.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

There you go ! Great ear !

[@jannovello6517]

The are 371 Michelin starred rated restaurants in Italy. But I get your point.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Thats what I get for not fact checking ... sounded too low... it was "city of Leecee" only Michelin star restaurant . everywhereist.com/2021/12/bros-restaurant-lecce-we-eat-at-the-worst-michelin-starred-restaurant-ever/

[@jannovello6517]

@@OCDHIFiGuy Thanks for the link, it was a very funny read.

[@planchernewfinish]

aw man i got to hear that playback design !

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

come visit me !

[@jamiemcneil9462]

This was good fun. Thanks Mikey.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Thanks Jamie !

[@josephkabuchi9237]

Mind you, the MSB Reference DAC is not their top of the line DAC..that would be the Select DAC..staring at $85k without options!!!.. even if it sounded better..the extra $60k can go a long way to improve your system in other areas..speakers, transport, turntables, amps, room treatment, racks and isolation, cables, streamers etc.....

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

He-llo !

[@j.m.harris4202]

The very reason Digital/satan is trying to replace Humans is that it has no Soul! Small Venue Live Lounge Listening is what I have evolved into in my pursuit of High Fidelity Reproduction having come out of the 60's and 70's Large Outdoor Productions! Mikey, Love Your Humanity! Keep on Rocking Brother!

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Thanks JM !! Rock on man !

[@richardr.5177]

Late comment but nicely put. Humorous !

[@deoncruywagen5191]

I so agree with this. That is one of the reasons that Enjoy The Music's Steve Rochlin sold his high-end setup and bought a set of budget, self-powered speakers. He said that the high-end setup was so revealing that he ended up dissecting the music, and not enjoying it anymore. The huge amount of detail became distracting and actually robbed him of his musical enjoyment, except for a very small, select few discs. So he sold it, and he is enjoying his music again. OTOH, some people like this- they love to analyze every aspect of the reproduction. More power to them. I don't. I, like Steve, and clearly like you, got into this hobby due to my love for music. Big ups to you. 🙂

[@Carrera6rennsport]

SR ran out of money. who else would go backwards, think about it!!!!

[@deoncruywagen5191]

​@@Carrera6rennsport, TBH, I disagree. When a system gets too revealing, it starts to dissect the music instead of playing it. I can't comment on SR's finances, but I understand where he came from. And he is by far not the only one to do this. I know of a number of people that sold seriously high-end set-ups and ended up with much lesser systems (ITO cost, anyway). A few of them turned to vintage (old HE speakers and tubes, etc). Others just simplified, or even just sold everything. It's like 8k for video. Everyone seem so exited about it, but I am not. Do I really want to be able to count every sweat pore on the actor's face? I don't even see that in real life. For some movies that kind of detail might be OK, for others, it'd be too distracting, lessening my pleasure (or even make me stop watching). Just MHO.

[@eddie-hkleung9962]

The interesting thing is that most comments under the comparison video indicated a different impression (not preference).

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Most comments liked #2

[@yulaswift2439]

Like the Trinity Doctrine, Digital to Analog Conversion shall forever remain a mystery to me ✌🏻

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

For most of us ....

[@gme10955]

Great analogies!

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Thanks !

[@mauriciojv7901]

MY dear OCD friend, salutations from Brasil. Could you please include in you DAC shootout one of these newer hundred bucks measurement perfect DACs like Gustard X16 or SMSL SU-9 just so people can have an understanding of how you just said, measuring perfectly and yet beeing devoided of soul. Thank you so much.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Oy Mauricio ! Im sorry my friend, I do not play with any HiFi under $1K... I must draw the line somewhere and $1K is as low as Ill pay attention to... Obrigado !

[@mauriciojv7901]

@@OCDHIFiGuy Hi Mike. I totally get it and agree with you. Just thought it could be fun to watch and listen. Keep it up.

[@202One]

$80,000 DAC, it better be a solid block of Gold with silver wires sticking out (sarcasm).. 😂 Living live music/concerts (small & large venues) since the 70's, feel Blessed! 🍾✌

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Rock on Brother ! I was in FL seeing a Live show . thats why i stopped by Jay ....

[@lewisdavis4429]

What did Jay have to say. Will he be making a video with his opinion of the shootout.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

No Idea...

[@chuckmoore5382]

Excellent review. When I was auditioning DACs three years ago (including MSB, dCS, Soulution, Berkeley and others) I picked PD for the reasons you describe although at the time I thought of the effect as being less "digital" like the conversion to analog was underdone in the other DACs. The MPD8 is even better with the companion MPT8, and both together are still half the price of the MSB.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Yeah Chuck that's right, after speaking with Andrea's before I started carrying the brand, I was most impressed to hear that he uses both measurement as well as his ear to do the final tune. There's a reason he writes the papers that the other guys study. Then again some people might love the hyper detail and ultraclean synthetic feel of MSB or DCS and the other and brands you mentioned. Nothing wrong either way it's just personal taste. :-)

[@jeffreywolff5899]

I'm a bit saddend because decades ago MSB made the first musical sounding DAC i ever heard. This is a no brainer- zipped threough the first DAC and listened to the second before of course knowing ID. I think it says a lpot that MSB uses the SAME DAC in all their models. They just double the NUMBER of them as they double the price. First of all why should 16 of them sound lots better than 2 of them. Reminds me of speaker brands that just give you more wire strands for more money.Second, you still only get one chasis but pay double.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Jeff I remember MSB back in the day when they were in La Honda, and they were all down to earth cool guys and the prices were realistic. I had a gold link three. I loved the brand. I was a dealer actually. Then they came out with the platinum line and wouldn't let regular dealers carry it, only platinum dealers. The price doubled than quadrupled and it became one of "those" brands. Several years back I called Vince Galbo to get back up with the American brand that I used to love so much, and he told me "MSB doesn't want people buying the product in talking about it online" and gave me an arrogant cold shoulder. It goes to show what happened to the brand. Unfortunate souring of cool humans. Now arrogant profiteers. Forget about their base core loyalists and cater to the money.

[@BrianGarside]

@@OCDHIFiGuy Sounds like they got investors as well and don't anyone to be critical that would jeopardize that profiteering. Typical for corporate "high-end".

[@oblatespheroid2212]

I'd still take the Yggdrasil over either one of those DACs.

[@ChrisMag100]

I had a Yggy A2. Great DAC for the money, not on par with the Chord Dave or Mola Mola in my setup though.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Lucky you ... ;-)

[@fullranger3435]

First off, I'm glad I chose Mikey's dac both times I did the fast and "critical" youtube listening. Second, I was afraid that the one I chose was MSB, actually. Because I rather chose it by the brain, not by the heart! It was more CORRECT! All what Mikey says today about analysis and placement of things (correctly) here and there WAS something I found in the (2nd)"Certain Other Dac" and not in the (1st)"Certain Dac". If I'd have to chose one that had a "musical character" this would be the first one BUT, this would be a "character of its own" meaning that it did affect the signal. The second dac (Certain Other Dac-MPD8) did not show any "musical character" to me except for the one in the recording! It was so accurate that I could simply not ignore this accuracy, even if I thought it was a little "laid back" in comparison to the first one. Perhaps youtube does not allow a lot of "the soul of the music" to "spook through", but I shall disagree with Mikey that "music is not all these individual things here and there". Music IS ALSO all these individual things here and there, of course connected into a whole BUT only to the extent intended and achieved by the performers and the studio/recording engineer. One of my best enjoyments in listening to my system is that WHILE ENJOYING THE MUSIC AS A WHOLE, I'm also able to constantly shift my attention and interest to individual instruments, voices, timbres, techniques, notes, musical lines, left, right, in the middle, near, far, further, etc, as I would have done in a live event! These are all (when reproduced accurately) the little tiny or bigger parts that create the suspended reality of the reproduced event. To me IT IS EXACTLY ACCURACY in reproduction that enables us to enjoy both the parts and the whole, as if they were real. It is accuracy in reading and rendering of the signal that allows the MPD8 to reach to the "soul of the music". It would not be able, otherwise. Others tried (BA Labo, MSB etc) but any "peripheral over-support" of an inherently imperfect original method/mechanism (R2R, multibit etc) of reading and rendering the signal correctly and precisely to its utmost lowest dB did not allow them to reach to the core of the "soul of the music" in the recording, except for to nicely dress it in their own nice, silky, velvety "curtain". So, precision, accuracy, to me, is the secret to bring out (also) the soul of the music, any music, in any recording. And this is where and why MPD8 IS KING!!!

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Thanks for your feedback FR !

[@fullranger3435]

@@OCDHIFiGuy You're always wellcome Mikey. Keep on!

[@Malangsufi]

Playback designed was too bright across my setup.

[@davidbentley145]

Are you sayin there is a balance of those characteristics that breathe life into the music with the Play Back Designs???...This reminds my of a product that Goldmund acquired the rights to produce that was based on a cd player which came from a cheap ghetto blaster unit which sold for a hundred or so bucks that they marketed several thousands of dollars...nice comparison here Mikey...sounds spot on...

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Wow ! I never heard that Goldmund story ! I thought that was a totally legit brand with purist designs.... Ill have to listen to the product sometime .

[@rajendrabiswas]

Is that a tv your writing on ?

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

black dry erase board

[@marcusfordal4973]

Interesting. You should try a dCS or Chord DAC if you find MSB to be overly analytical. Many would put MSB in the ”analogue” sounding corner of the DAC world even though many R2R DAC’s are even more natural, fluid and coherent.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

I've tried both DCS and Chord, and Playback Designs was most to my liking. So it is my reference. You will not hear me speak about any other DAC moving forward unless I'm comparing. My DAC search is over. MSB sounded analytical and reproduced in my experience in this rig. There would be no place for Chord Dave/ Mscaler anywhere in this rig and I think Jay already ruled out DCS

[@temp7774]

@@OCDHIFiGuy dCS Bartok is my "end-game" DAC, if I can only afford it 😭. Taste differs and that's cool, otherwise everyone would be buying the same shit 😎

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

@@temp7774 I'm assuming you've never heard it in your rig and room, how do you know?

[@temp7774]

@@OCDHIFiGuy I was using headphones HD800s in a 30 min session in a London show. My prime home gear is headphone + DAC on my desktop as I am barely ever using my vintage stereo rig (with a "new" DAC & monitors in it). I had the opportunity to hear a good number of DAC's and while Bartok was completely outside of my price range that I am willing to devote to ANY HiFi piece - it simply blow my mind! I am into HiFi since early 80's and old enough to remember CD "concept" in R&D phase so I may say that I have a rather define values of what I want and like and what not. I am certain that there are many Bartok competitors out there and that I may even like some of those better but I do not ever make a claim on something that I have not experienced - ever. That is a perfect piece for MY needs but as I said earlier, out for a price reason.

[@andredevries4987]

Hi Mike. I really love the play back design more. I don,t have a lot of money but my system play,s very musical. I always listen too the music not the rig. I love music and my system is simple but makes music. Love your channel. Gr André de vries

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

There you go Andre ! That's all that matters my friend.. ;-) Thanks for your support!

[@bvaccaro2959]

NiIiice, the tonal quality of the mids, energy, and naturalness/rightness of A Certain Other DAC totally reminded me of my Soundsmith Strain Gauge(considering it’s a recording on KZbin of course), yeah that’s uhh, def impressive. Hmm, that MB’s dac sounded a bit bland, boring, well actually just not good, weird. I’ve recorded music with my iPhone(just clowning around/texting what was playing), through my McIntosh d150 which for sure sounded much better then the MSb, at least that’s what my memory’s telling me. I’m basically a vinyl guy for the most part though, so there’s that:)

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Thanks for your feedback big V !

[@FlamaFlanga]

DAC1 MSB was veiled compared to DAC2 MPD-8. I think Jay's system was culprit for most of the issues I had overall. Playback was better than MSB hands down. Sorry but its true.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Thanks for your input Wes !! You happen to know good amps as well !!

[@KT88gs]

Ik know what you mean.I ripped of by Synergistic Research by buying ,back then,a Blue Fuse for 159 Dollar i guess,it sounded harsh and non emotional,now installed a fuse by Hifi-Tuning and sounds at least ten times better,for only 45 Dollar,i hate it when this happens.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

I have a thing for companies releasing new items that "Kill " the old ones ... I can relate .

[@tonyt.5771]

No one ever mentions the placebo effect, a lot audiophiles have this disease .

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

A lot of PEOPLE have this disease..

[@stephenassante4071]

Mikey what you're talking about is the Tonality of Whatever Recorded Music you happen to be talking about! For myself, I really don't find most modern studio recorded non acoustic instrument based (Including most Jazz & Rock) Music to add much "Soul" to the sound of the Recordings! ..... I guess it's a matter of Subjective Opinion. The "Kiss of Death" for me is if anything I listen to is considered a "Popular" Recording (Which to me means I'm 99.009% sure it will sound like Garbage due to dopey engineering of Music Genre Mediocrity). Music ???? Only If you have simplistic expectations

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Recordings should "add" nothing . All DAC is is an interpolation.... so whatever sounds most like Live is best in my book.

[@mikegaustad477]

Jay ran the same test on his website. I can't wait to see if I picked the same dac on both occasions

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Thanks for watching Mike

[@Xerxesro1]

Interesting rant. I didn't last until the end, but I hope you did make your point, eventually.

[@kevinstarski1598]

I think both are amazing dacs. I think MSB comes closer to the recording (through KZbin I prefer it, but who knows, it may be too much if I was sitting in the room, I don't know) and I think PD adds a certain "hall" spaciousness for a different kind of listening. Interesting Mikey didn't like the cables with crazy boxes in the middle of them, saying they add artifacts (MIT is another example) , well, I think PD adds an artifact too...which may not be a bad thing, just depends on the system and the listener...

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

I believe what you were hearing Kevin is called decay and it's something that is natural on any sound that you hear with your ears. Playback designs has a very natural sounding decay. If the recording doesn't have it, then playback will not have it. The man who designed this DAC invented sample rate conversion. He created the first digital audio machines for Studer of Switzerland, the master tape recorder company. I don't think there's anybody alive that understands how to design a DAC the way this man does. His algorithms are completely different than any other. Though some humans would rather interface with robots and computers than other humans. It's just a matter of choice neither one is right or wrong. I choose Human.

[@brunorivademar5356]

Playback Designs or APL?

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Playback for sure... I have an APL for sale if you'd like it .

[@drgabon]

More than 300 michelin restaurants in Italy

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Yes !! On my way !!

[@ToadStool942]

Interesting. You could be spot on. Then again, you could also be describing the classic scenario where a component is installed and then dismissed as being too detailed? If that's actually the case, well..., there is no such thing as too detailed or 101% detail. Yes, a designer can do funky things to voice a component but most seem to do a fairly reasonable job because intentionally doing funky things and if caught, it's usually a death knell for the mfg'er. So those mfg'ers attempting to perform due diligence seem to avoid such practices. Then again, it's also entirely possible is that a so-called too detailed component is exposing distortions and/or shortcomings elsewhere in the system - a cry for help and attention elsewhere in the system, if you will. Because a truly revealing component is also indiscrimnate about what it reveals. IOW, it reveals more music info but simultaneously reveals more distortions potentially plaguing a system. But instead of recognizing the excruciating audible cries for help elsewhere in the system, the component is removed and deemed as evil. Having no info of the system involved or depth of your experience and listening skills, this would be my first guess. Given what little info you've provided here and knowing firsthand the significance of sonic harm induced by universal distortions that most always are poorly addressed if at all, I'd opt for the MSB product in a heartbeat as it's quite possible the component you favor is inducing a coloration that masks potential shortcomings elsewhere in the playback system. And for those situations, the coloration may indeed seem more musical. Overall, a truly musical playback system comes from an abundance of detail but for sure clean detail. Without detail, volumes of music info remains inaudible at the speaker. Especially the volumes and volumes of the recording hall's ambient info. Which happens to be the lowest of all low-level detail and this is where the real magic of the playback presentation lies. Given all the above and the unknowns to me, I'd hedge my bets with the MSB for greatest potentials.

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Thanks Toad, that was a very well thought out reply. What you say makes perfect sense. What I'm talking about here is not too much detail but rather non-cohesive detail. Granted it could be something else in the rig causing the sibilance, but it was gone with the Playback Designs. The good thing about living in the United States, is you can opt for the $80,000 DAC and put it in whatever rig you want to. No harm no foul. It's there for you. I'll stick with the designer that invented sample rate conversion, and patented it.

[@ToadStool942]

@@OCDHIFiGuy Thanks and understood. Unless I missed it, this is the first I've heard you mention sibilance. Ain't nothing wrong with sibilance as that's just another sought-after characteristic - unless perhaps you mean negative sibilance. If that's the case, that's usually a clear indication of poorly managed i.e. very dirty AC both coming from the wall and within and throughout the playback system. IOW, rarely is negative sibiliance attributed to a single component. But without any info of the playback system in use, it's just a SWAG. Back on topic. As you may know, when a presentation seems to magnify or spotlight every ornament ball on the christmas tree as you put it, any cohesiveness and/or continuousness and/or natural flow of music ceases because that's an inherent bi-product when magnifying / spotlighting occurs. Pretty difficult to experience a cohesive presentation with 50 or 500 spotlights, don't ya think? It would help if you made detailed mention of the playback system involved because that has as much impact on what we hear as the component in question. Without such info, it's just your word and I don't mean to offend but if there's one industry where one's word should be questioned perhaps more than any other industry, it's this one. Especially when it's relatively easy these days to generate an in-room recording of both components in action and then listen to the recording with a reasonable set of headphones. If you had such a video with each playing, then you could offer your opinion of each component's performance and at least some of us would be able to somewhat confirm or question what we/you hear. As for sticking with the designer who invented and patented sample rate conversion. Wasn't it he and his former boss who, after conducting a rather questionable experiement using a mic, a guitar, and guitar amp, concluded that something catastrophic must be occurring at the recording mic's diaphragm such that much of the live performance never makes it to the recording? If true, I've yet to see that 2009 era conclusion rescinded by him and/or his former boss. Also, if true, that finding can easily be proven false hence, shouldn't that alone cause one to question this designer's audio integrity? For the record, I'm not basing my opinion on the cost whatsoever and in fact I kinda' despise giving any $80k component any credence. Rather I'm just basing my opinion here on my limited experiences and yours as told in this video. Regardless, does not the possibility exist that the MSB DAC could still be superior due to its ability to manifest/spotlight detail or frequencies or instruments or notes as you mentioned while simultaneously exposes more distortions/flaws elsewhere in the system just as a truly revealing and undiscriminating component ought? If so, then doesn't the possibility also exist that the PD DAC could well be introducing colorations (like some tubes) that subdues/masks potential distortions/flaws (and music) elsewhere to give the impression it's more coherent and therefore more musical? I would think the answer is yes, the possibility exists for both. Especially since I'm unaware of any playback system having arrived and in fact many need serious prayer.

[@hassabsaeed9993]

When you stop/loose the dealership of Playback Designs ,, i wonder how you will change your opinion about them :)

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

You have it backwards. First, I would need to change my opinion about them, then I would stop selling. I highly doubt the brand would do anything to make me lose my loyalty to the brand. They are good highly respectful people that dont play games.

[@hassabsaeed9993]

@@OCDHIFiGuy Denafrips was super good when you where the dealer , after that it was another story , wonder how that happened xD

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

@@hassabsaeed9993 I boycotted China. Simple. Why dont you tell me what you really want to say ?

[@chipsnmydip]

Man, you are raving about MSB, but it REALLY sounds like you are talking about DCS.

[@Carrera6rennsport]

huh? MSB stands for Mark S. Brasfiield one of two the original founders. Also, MSB is considered to be more musical than dCS so does that mean playback systems sounds mid-fi?? put that in the pipe and smoke it!

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

I did and I got ill.... MSB is overhyped and an arrogant company in my opinion. Im just another douchebag with an opinion... It means nothing .

[@miquifaye]

$80,000 -$20,000 iboth are ridiculously priced for a DAC. I will say this : I hate Adele’s music with a fucking passion and the MSB increased the hate I have for her music even more . The lesser ridiculously priced DAC presented a more tolerable experience. I guess that says something for the comparison. Now if I could only erase that woman’s annoying voice from my mind . A $500 -$2000 DAC does just fine for me .

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Thanks for your opinion.... in our industry $22K is a freaking blessing for this type of conversion. Give me 5 minutes talking with you and Ill find something that you spend money on that I feel is totally overpriced and ridiculous... Collect anything ????

[@miquifaye]

@@OCDHIFiGuy i just sold a huge record collection i spent too much money on.

[@CraigK80]

Bit of pie stuck to the camera lens there fella

[@sloboat55]

Mikey, Dac-off, alright alright okay okay Alright okay

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

LOL> couldnt help it .

[@brankocernik8384]

SPOT ON . Music needs Soul !!! it is like velvet chocolate

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Werd !

[@glazzarus]

As long as during recording and mastering they compress vocals and all instruments it is just jiberish talk about "soul' of music. Also as long as all this 'reference' DACs have power supply module that cant provide 136db noise floor and give you about 90db only forget about dynamics and bits over 18bit. Does not mater how many bits is used for processing as long as DAC react to different power cords it is a expensive joke for fools.

[@gregorydijoseph5873]

DAC-OFF! Great video!!

[@OrganNLou]

MSB Most significant Bullshit! Mikey, your camera has a dark spot in the center! Great Video!

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

or Masochists Will Buy.... Just ordered new phone tonight ... lol

[@davidbentley145]

With the restaurant analogy...I'll bet those who wrote their review probably stopped off somewhere else to have a pizza pie before heading back home...ha,ha

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

Totally... McDonald's even

[@mehtasid]

Thanks for talking about natural sound, integrity and sounding musical. The high-end industry rarely gets this. But $22K is expensive. Tell us about affordable DACs that are natural so we can enjoy the music.

[@s.t.e.r.e.o.]

Yes please

[@audiolife5038]

Try Benchmark or Audio Note.

[@mr.o9152]

MIkey. We need your answer here😃

[@OCDHIFiGuy]

I'm glad you asked. Because I carry products that are musical and top of their price point. For $4500 I sell a AADac made by Audio Analogue of Italy and it's very musical. I guarantee that you will be utterly satisfied or your money back. If you purchase I also guarantee to buy it back from you when or if you decide you want something else. This eliminates the need to sell in order to buy the new thing. Buying from Mikey is the different experience than you had before. My goal is to be your audio professional for life, all of you guys. And gals.

[@mehtasid]

@@OCDHIFiGuy I've owned Audio Analogue's Puccini amp. Had some reliability issues. The remote stopped working in a few months. The amp stopped working after some years. The sound was indeed natural, but I'm no longer buying Italian. The Arcam (made in UK) bought at the same time sounds wholesome and is built like a tank. Over time, reliability matters.