DAKAR 2025 - The Roll Cage Drama - CLOSER LOOK

[@jamsbong]

I kind of side with safety. I think there should be a post roll integrity study to better gauge when the rollcage is unsafe.

[@MIEJ4]

Don’t think anyone is arguing about the fact the cage was damaged and therefore compromised. But the teams after spending millions of euros to get the car and the support etc there and in place, should be able to replace the damaged section, as long as it meets the roll cage homologation spec. It’s a complete waste for them to be sent home when everything is there ready to sort it. Bonkers.

[@jamsbong]

@ I think the organizers need to make sure their star drivers like Matador Sainz’ and Monsieur Loeb’s lives aren’t in danger.

[@RubensOteroNeto]

​@@MIEJ4 from an engineering stand point is so hard to make on site repairs to the parts while maintaing safety that the organizers deem it prohibetively hard and risky to implement in such tough conditions. Remember, weight is an issue and those cages are probably riding on slim safety margins. To do proper measuring and metal analysis in those scenarios is not easily feasible. Pushing a repair in suboptimal environment (they are not in the controled factory) is tricky.

[@RubensOteroNeto]

For me it should be like: you have two cages for the race, marshals inspect predetermined spots and rule if the change is necessary and give a penalty if needed to change. More than two or no penalty it is possible that a team would abuse to gain performance (they always do it)

[@km6832]

Extreme but the organisers know the potential fall out if a driver dies because they were allowed to continue with a damaged caged.

[@MIEJ4]

Nobody is talking about continuing with a damaged cage. They were asking to repair it then continue. How do they know a cage is fine before it’s damaged?

[@km6832]

@MIEJ4 because its not damaged when it leaves the race shop. If you have to make a repair to something is it not damaged? The teams cannot guarantee the same safety of a repaired cage in comparison to a new one.

[@Skibidigokyllyourself]

​@@MIEJ4 knock knock whos there? structural integrity

[@Ahblair4]

@@MIEJ4 I agree but also same liability applies. Unless the sanctioning body travels with a tubing x-ray, they still cannot guarantee a 100% passing repair.

[@MIEJ4]

@ but you could say the same before the start, how do you know the cage will work adequately?

[@steeleybaws]

All roll cages are homologation, they are designed and guaranteed, with a tag to prove so. So how do you re-homologate a rollcage in the field? The FIA simply can't accept the liability of allowing it based off a repair. I'm sure the mechanics are competent enough to repair the sections... but who signs off on the roll cage, with a guarantee that it meets the homologation requirements? Its a shame to see two of the big boys out of the race, especially in new cars. Would be good to see the FIA get their own homologation team onboard, who can certify safety-related repairs

[@MIEJ4]

@@steeleybaws how do any roll cage pass scrutineering before an event starts? Who signs off on that?

[@steeleybaws]

@MIEJ4 The homogator does. A professional, usually involved in the construction of the cage (which in many dakar cars is also the chassis). They certify that it meets the requirements and will perform accordingly. They attach a metal label or similar to the cage to guarantee that it meets the regulations in its current design. If it's damaged and repaired, it's design and construction has changed. It sounds more complicated than it actually is, many roll cage builders can also homologate them

[@NoanatorTV]

i mean im sure there is no rule saying you cant invest some weight into a stronger cage for sake of race reliability. So it seems like its just an engineering issue for now

[@grahambex5829]

These Rallye Raid cars are built around the main roll cage/frame . The high speeds that the cars travel at means that there is the possibility of them hitting washouts , tree roots, rock outcrops and sandunes , sometimes /usually unseen. The cars have the potential to forward roll, side barrel roll or be launched into the air omly to nose or tail dive which will put the rollframe under extreme stress. At the end of the day it better to retire a car due to a damaged rollframe than have to explain to the families of the driver and navigator that the FIA made a mistake and didnt withdraw the car. The manufacturers and sponsors speed a large amount of money, time and effort in preparing a car and team for an event. It would not be a great PR if one of their cars caused a death/deaths of the driver and or navigator due to a failed rollbar. Safety of a vehicle is always the best decision.

[@CraigGrunenfelder]

Those both seem repairable. Plenty of cages get pushed and pulled back into place and new members get welded in. Bend and damaged parts get cut out. Homologation is a method that not perfect, in the field or not. They are plenty of ways to verify cage integrity in the field or shop. FiA seems a bit lacking in practical field engineer that is needed for these kinds of events.

[@kolorado7260]

Sounds tough, but rules are rules. I am sure the FIA dont want to have the case of a "damaged" cage being allowed to continue and then by some "miracle" the cage fails and something serious happens. Then everyone would go crying to/about the FIA about driver safety

[@MIEJ4]

Nobody is talking about continuing with a damaged cage. They were asking to repair it then continue. How do the FIA know a cage is fine before it’s damaged? That’s what the homologation process is for. Check the repair is done to the same spec as the roll cage homologation, then there isn’t an issue surely?

[@Skibidigokyllyourself]

​@@MIEJ4 you may never know, that is the big problem in metallurgics, it can fail whenever it wants too

[@boborenebobo]

Rules is all that remain from sport. Crap world.

[@Stephen-oy7fl]

In these rally raid cars the roll cage IS the chassis. In the past and in other categories, the original car had a roll cage inserted into it to add to the existing structure. But these cars just have bit of plastic attached to the cage. I have raced in motorsport and you rely the basic structure for 80% of the strength, with the cage adding the other 20%. This category should be banned. They are just beach buggies with a car like covering and they are built to the lightest design to just fit in the rules. Good on the FIA for enforcing the rules.

[@Koup_TV_]

Agreed. The cars should be based on and resemble a road going version. They should get closer to the T1 formula. Between T1+and ultimate it became a buggy class. The cockpit should be to factory road going spec or with slight modifications.

[@zr6ajl]

I have worked in motorsport, and the cages are 80% or more of the strength of a original car. The original car could never survive the "normal" driving punishment without a cage, never mind any safety benefits of a cage. Those space frame cars are far, far superior in every way (safety included) to what any original car and cage car could ever be.

[@McRocket]

This is killing the sport. If the FIA think that major manufacturers are going to keep coming to the Dakar. Knowing just one rollover of their vehicles means their cars are disqualified. And all the work and many millions invested is wasted? The FIA is dreaming. Also, losing some of the 'stars' of the rally to overly picky race stewards' is damaging to the rally overall. And you people who say they love the Dakar but who are saying that safety must be all important - are being rather hypocritical. Since the 2020 Dakar, 6 people have died during the event. You claim safety is all important and then openly support a rally that kills over one person, per rally since 2020 (and 79 overall in its history)? That is hypocrisy right there. The Dakar is dangerous. Incredibly dangerous. Like it or not - that is part of the draw (not the death - but the danger). All the competitors know this. Yet, they still come by the hundreds. If they want to risk it - let them. This is not like (for example) Formula One back in the 1960's when it was semi-suicidal and many drivers (like Jackie Stewart) were calling for greater safety. This is the opposite. This is drivers/riders wanting the officials to let them race and not be so ridiculously picky about the rules. Sure, obvious safety risks must be stopped (like concussions, broken roll cages, etc.). But anal retentive rule decisions that virtually no one else at the rally agrees with are silly. And if they keep up - I believe it will damage the Dakar, greatly. Thank you very much for creating this video.

[@billhill4479]

It's just a problem that needs an engineering solution . It's as simple as that . Racing has produced fantastic engineering solutions that the entire industry uses today. Of course it's really unfortunate to see these teams eliminated from the race but safety needs to remain the # 1 priority . Oh, and btw , the roll cage did it's job and the competitors walked away unhurt . That's a win in my book.

[@Yosser70]

There’s zero room for letting safety slide in motorsport. If a roll cage has bent, it’s taken a serious impact and there’s no way to fully assess the damage to the rest of the cage in the middle of a race. Cages are connected throughout the car, so a bent support at the front could be evidence of the whole cage being tweaked, causing unseen damage to welds or fixing points. It’s obviously unfortunate but the rules are there for driver safety

[@boborenebobo]

Agree until point of driver safe. If the driver is taking his responsibility, he should be free to drive. What is madness of this world where safety is breaking the freedoms of individuals?

[@josephatherton2781]

I dissagree . As a boilermaker tradesmen , boilermaker tradesmens should be able to make safe welding repairs , check the welds with N D T . OR ULTRA SOUND , X RAY . MAG PARTICAL testing . The same as thay do when it made in the first place .

[@Yosser70]

@@boborenebobo Well that’s about as dumb as it gets 🙄 If you give the drivers the responsibility for their own safety, they’ll be driving around if unsafe car’s just so they can go quicker. The rules are there to protect them from theirselves.

[@Yosser70]

@@josephatherton2781 So you are going to do that on every weld on the cage in the middle of the desert are you. For a start the car needs almost completely stripping to get at all the welds, so you ain’t doing all that, then testing them all and rebuilding it over night.

[@jackfrost7734]

Safety should always be the number one priority, so to me it’s a good thing to disqualify for this reason. Also a roll cage is tested applying forces that are almost impossible to reproduce (2x/3x more than a real case). So if it is bent on some degrees, it means that the cage is done. The only repair would be to substitute the roll cage in its integrity and this is not feasible.

[@ZedNinetySix_]

Well then, teams must engineer their cages even stronger, so a rollover or hard bash doesn't compromise the cage structure, and keep driving to finish without penalty.

[@MrEtnorb]

Once steel passes its yield point, it behaves in a plastic state rather than elastic state. These structures are very complex and you would have to rebuild them to get the original strength.

[@louiereyes8376]

Very good for teams w/o a big budget . Very bad for the big boys because taking a hit was part of the game and now no more . Next races will be so uncompetitive because of these rules . Less risk

[@mohammedalhosni7014]

Maybe the FIA should standardize crash structures around the cars to protect the frame. In the event of a rollover or a similar incident, these structures could be designed to bend or deform, protecting the core frame. Teams should then be allowed to replace these crash structures, and they should be designed to be easily replaceable.

[@axelknutt5065]

It will be interesting to see the certification on these cages. They are self-certified, the FIA doesn’t crash test the cages. The designer runs simulations and signs off that the cage meets the regulations. This absolves the FIA of liability if anything goes drastically wrong.

[@mueffe1357]

IIRC all vehicles have to be inspected by FIA officials for adhering to rule and regulations requirements. That includes the roll cage measurements have to follow the FIA rule. If not they will not be allowed to race.

[@axelknutt5065]

@ Hi, muefe. Yes there is pre-event scutineering, but usually (well, in my experience anyway) it’s a visual inspection. They will check a) that there is a roll-cage b) that it looks ok/normal and c) that it has a certified sticker. Unless there is something obviously different about the look of the cage in your vehicle, like it’s made of 20mm tube when every other cage is 40mm, they’re not going to measure each competing vehicle. Somethings they are not going to be able to check, like the wall thickness etc. All this comes back to the designer/maker. The only time the cage will be thoroughly inspected is if it doesn’t do its job and someone is killed or seriously injured.

[@zr6ajl]

You clearly have no idea how stringent the cage rules are, and how strong that actually are.

[@axelknutt5065]

@@zr6ajl I have a very good understanding of roll cages for not only Motorsport applications but also ROPS for mining vehicles. In fact my initial comment referred to checking that the RCs used in the 3 vehicles were built to the certified design and materials. The FIA gives a list of acceptable materials, some mandatory pieces of bar work and performance specifications. Since each car is different, it’s not up to,the FIA to design a cage for each model. ‘

[@suhaib471]

I disagree on Loeb's crash being not so extreme. It was quite brutal, and being a desert racer myself, I was worried until the co-driver emerged. Any car with a high speed roll over like that should not be allowed to continue, apart from the roll cage everything on the car becomes unreliable and prone to failure, like Loeb's steering...

[@Koup_TV_]

It was definitely a brutal roll

[@unoxunox4086]

Maybe a measurement could be the trigger if s car is out. If the acceleration (m/s*s and rad/s*s) threshold is exxeded and the cage is bend of some kind of percent the team is out. Then designing and testing can be approved.

[@mikepod637]

Facts

[@TylerLinner]

​@@unoxunox4086The measurement is the roll cage. It got bent. It exceeded the threshold.

[@unoxunox4086]

So no need for more regulations. Dont wrack the car and you stay in the race.

[@kidpagronprimsank05]

This, and Zhou accident years earlier in F1 really makes it look suspicious that engineers and manufacturer starting again to cut corners or overconfident with design

[@mueffe1357]

Being trapped in a roll cage is not fun. Bent steel is not going to be as safe and sturdy as the original. The organiser made the correct move.

[@Theboaby]

On the Dakar website it shows Carlos had withdrew and Seb was disqualified .strange as both had cage safety issue and refused permission to continue by Dakar.

[@learcus]

It depends on how safe the cage still is after rolling over and cracking. Someone should definitely find that out.

[@Metrallaroja]

Very interesting debate. I personally think that the solution has to be done throught engineering and ruling, creating standards to repair this roll hoops for the dakar.

[@sharkeyist]

Look at it this way, older cars prob had the cage more within a body, the body would crumple and prtect the tubework from dmall stone dents, Now with "advancments" the body is thinner, and the tubework is more exposed, hence damage to the important bit sooner/from lighter damage.

[@jjjjrrr678]

The topic is to complex to allow what ifs and also you can end up declassifying one car and allowing another based on subjective opinions... They have no choice but to apply the rule clearly and decisively. If the factories want the cars to survive rollovers they can so it's a compromise they need to manage. An OEM sure has the resources to do plenty of simulations to figure it out and maximize their chances.

[@paulmccain7072]

Check out the YT video of Brenthel Industries rolling-no, more like tumbling-their 6000-lb truck at over 100 mph, with the cage coming through virtually unscathed. They went on to finish the race. That is a properly built roll cage.

[@frost6916]

Damn, 3 cars already?

[@schnorks7448]

i am more on the side "innocent until proven guilty". disqualifying someone because he can't prove otherwise is not a good foundation for the future of the event

[@zr6ajl]

Not having seen the damage, its difficult to comment on whether the cage is safe or not, but not too be allowed to repair it is pathetic. None of the cages in the event actually were individually tested, they were built by qualified technicians to a standard and sent out to be raced. The cage could easily have been repaired by qualified technicians to the same standard as when built. They almost certainly have the equipment , material and staff on hand to do it.

[@mullayho1759]

It seems strange to be that strict about safety when there are bikes and quads in the dakar as well

[@justinbecker4772]

Bikes and quads don't weight several tons if they land on top of you

[@wrigman]

Race cars can be replaced when damaged. Drivers can’t be.

[@auoteauote2067]

Motorcycles has no roll cage at all, still allow to race

[@grizwoldphantasia5005]

Even after a roll over? /s

[@JOHANNESwhoelse]

That's why riders regularly get seriously injured or killed by highsiders in rough terrain.

[@Oscar97o]

Motorbikes aren't regulated by the FIA.

[@drivingduck2234]

That is not FIA regulated thats FIM

[@justinbecker4772]

How much does a motorcycle weight? How much does a Dakar truck weigh? Say, for instance, the cage on a Dakar truck was compromised, and it collapsed. Do you want to support that whole thing with your body?

[@drivingduck2234]

I mean do we have prove that the damage of the Sandireder was as mild as apears? FIA are the ones with the data, only then and the mechanics can observe the stress and fractures in the metal and than declare if the car is fit or unfit, even if Loebs Car dont look as bad as the others, it might still be just as or even more degraded than the others

[@Alucard-gt1zf]

When you make your roll cage your vehicle chasis dont be annoyed when its treated like the vehicle chasis and disqualified when it gets bent

[@georgecarmel6114]

Design the roll cage as strong as a Catapillar D9.

[@axelknutt5065]

Maybe they need a ‘Carlos’ bar.

[@mosca3289]

Fix them and keep them running. That’s the rallying spirit.

[@polandpool9]

Maybe.... They should drive slower but navigate better. Pedal to the metal is no always best solution

[@zr6ajl]

Brilliant Idea. Perhaps we should watch them to see who can take the most scenic pictures as they tour around the globe in their 4x4's at 15kph

[@francikaa1]

WEC(FIA) Dakar(FIA) The FIA made the more efficient diesels non-competitive by penalizing them with smaller fuel tanks, and extra ballast. It's just a sitcom on wheels.

[@Barry.ONeill]

They are sculpting a National win

[@danielcadby1502]

It seems pretty extreme, as much effort goes into this kind of race, to be disqualified for a roll-over seems very frustrating

[@justinbecker4772]

Don't roll

[@peterflynn9123]

Perhaps the FIA need to stipulate stronger cages...

[@wrcvtm4132]

Is all about the money! They don't want Dacia make performance!

[@kevinpaynter]

They allow motor bikes to race without rolecages. Same speed, same roads. It's a farce and FIA just likes to show their power. The safety margins on these cars are huge. FIA just sucks. Same with all the safety cars in other formats. Let the drivers race. At the price the teams pay for an entry, I would sue them if they disqualify me becaise of 2mm.

[@witsend177]

Allow a back up car with a time penalty, solved. Your welcome.

[@justinbecker4772]

Could price out a lot of competitors.

[@andydelarue9344]

Bigger faster harder, yep roll cage can’t keep up.

[@jamesgeorge4874]

Tell the racers to slow down, and be more careful !😂😅😂

[@stevekemp8567]

It's nothing like the real Dakar anyway

[@justinbecker4772]

Yeah, fuck safety!

[@stevekemp8567]

OHS at its finest

[@PedroLopes-bw9sy]

Can't believe i'm agreeing with the FIA, but they're right.

[@endimious]

It is BS, the bikes have no RK and the riders risk much more...

[@erwanleon6054]

It sounds crazier for me to repare a damaged roll cage than desqualifying a car for this.

[@Barry.ONeill]

They do it in the Wrc all the time they cut out the bent bars and weld in good ones.

[@gilesyful]

once you have paid your entry fee and start the race its up the entrant if they wish to continue The "officials " should FO and just keep the time

[@chrisbackhouse5730]

I've seen cages go through worse in the local speedway circuit. These cages have been used for years and have been through head-on collisions, rollovers, and shunts from the side. If backyard mechanics can make the cages last, I think this is simply an overreaction from the organisers

[@ianthompson1675]

Quite a difference between a loosely regulated local speedway event featuring $2000 cars and the World’s premier international off road race with $1m cars

[@Barry.ONeill]

​@ianthompson1675 Ye thers more corruption around bigger money that's what

[@chrisbackhouse5730]

@ianthompson1675 fair point, but I'm talking about stocks, modifieds, and supers. The speed and weight would be comparable across all three divisions

[@dainco08]

RAPTOR!!!!!!!!!!!

[@philipped7]

Any loss of bodywork that makes the vehicle non-compliant with the highway code should result in disqualification from the start of the link following the accident!

[@philipped7]

Comme les groupes B a une époque, ces véhicules ne sont plus aptes à circuler sur des routes et pistes ouvertes. Allègements et sur puissance pour toujours plus de performances. Faut revenir aux Dakar d'origine...

[@zr6ajl]

These new cars have reduced power compared to Original Dakar, and vastly improved strength and safety compared to original Dakar. The original Dakar was the equivalent of Group B

[@philipped7]

@ Drivers will slow down if a barrel roll equals exclusion from the race....

[@zr6ajl]

@philipped7 Might as well stop all forms of motorsport then. Its all part and parcel of the sport. Not sure why you even watch anything motor related if you so scared of a roll. Same as the last guy who wanted steel bars and plates in the windows and doors to stop what happened to Craig. If you cant take the heat stay out the kitchen . I do miss the days when men were men

[@Peter-b6q5f]

Insurance runs the western world.

[@fillman86]

they wanted it to be lighter, so they did took it from the cage and hoped they wouldn't roll. It was a gamble and they lost. I think the decision to dq them was the appropriate choice

[@JohnnyRotten-dy7nk]

All you safety commenters need to go find another sport, like golf or tennis. Everyone worried about a small crack or bend in a roll cage while motorcycle racers are flying across the same desert in the same exact race WITHOUT AROLL CAGE...at all. You want safety, then why even enter or watch Dakar? Some safety is great, but this, like everything else has gone too far. All racers and teams plan and invest all year and know the risk while the organizers are not willing to take any risk and have no skin in the game.

[@honumoorea873]

Let the team decide if their rollcage is strong enough. All those people talk about security, .common, if security was the most imprtant thing in the world..there would be no car races...! If a rollcage is seriously damaged, ok...but if it's bended and moved like 1cm away....just get it back in place, check for weld failure and let the guy go.

[@_Dimon_]

Fuck no, if you let teams decide on safety, they'll disregard it completely.

[@SuperLanyard]

Everyone knows whats going on here. A Saudi runs the FIA. The race is in Saudi Arabia. And Saudi drivers are competing for the win. Enough said!

[@UncleFjester]

FYI, Ford Bronco 4x4, cuz of the removable roof has a roll cage. The Bronco Raptors Frame and Roll Cage are structurally reinforced much more stronger. Not sure what this means other than FORD beats Toyota once again.

[@ogmK4rl]

You will not win the Dakar going flat out.

[@hanswurst6712]

But u will also not win by driving to slow.

[@martineyer5336]

Genuinely load of bollocks, you can easily repair the cage. That whole Dakar is just reduced to French woke bullshit😂😂 just a 💩 hoon through one Arab country.