Damascus vs. Super Steels - Testing a Dozen Different Damascus Steels!

[@JC-dt7jv]

Im an engineer. I've worked with metalurgists in an org many people around the world would instantly recognize. Good metalurgists are hard to come by, and you seem to be one of them. This is very good work.

[@brianbeeson]

Great video Larrin! We're spoiled that you're sharing all of this for free on KZbin. Thanks for advancing knowledge of the knife industry

[@realbroggo]

100%. This video represents many many hours of work and we really appreciate it. There's no way I could get this information, presented so well, elsewhere - thank you!

[@nightrider5420]

Take a look at "Blade Forum" Larrin has loads of his work on the board and it is The Best place to go for all things knives. @@realbroggo

[@ArthurHerbst]

A 50 minutes video comparing powder metallurgical steels to damascus? Yeeeeesss thank you :D

[@davesmith5656]

The only problem is that "Damascus" steel is not folded steel alloys. Damascus steel came from a mine south of Damascus, not even in Syria, and was notable for its naturally occurring alloy (and strength). More than a few people have tried to determine what exactly that alloy was /is (without satisfactory success, IIRC). It left a distinctive uniformly random pattern visible, possibly due to trace vanadium, possibly due to something else. Similar mines were later found in India. I'm no authority on it, but that is what I have read/learned. Taking one mass production steel and folding it a-la-katana with another alloy or metal does not make Damascus steel.

[@mikafoxx2717]

These days they call that Wootz. Larrin has a video testing legitimate woots Damascus. They can make it these days still. It's a very high carbon steel (like 2%) with an impurity that forms carbides which causes clustering of iron carbides in distinct layers by growing in carbon content near the carbide bands over the forging process.

[@garethbaus5471]

The results with 1095/nickel ladder pattern were surprising. I never would have guessed that there was any cutting advantage to using Damascus let alone Damascus with pure nickel.

[@CSGraves]

Yeah, that was a cool tidbit to learn. Slicing better than 1095 alone! It's like when you blend different varieties of tea, it supposedly has a greater antiangiogenic effect than either tea alone rather than the weaker diluting the stronger.

[@timbirch4999]

@@CSGraves That's a terrible analogy!

[@CSGraves]

@@timbirch4999 Found the coffee guy

[@CSGraves]

@@timbirch4999 Found the coffee guy

[@CSGraves]

@@timbirch4999 Found the coffee guy

[@_BLANK_BLANK]

Wow. Did not expect that. I'm just to the part showing the catra results of the 1095/nickel. Can't wait to watch the rest of the video. Super interesting. Thank you for all the work you put into these tests, and spreading this info to us.

[@homeslicesharpening]

I never knew how much I needed you to do this study - anyway, not until I was halfway through grinning from ear to ear. Thanks for debunking a whole bunch more mythology and creating a new set of useful observations makers can use to improve their craft. This was so cool. Seriously. Thanks Larrin. Gonna have to buy that book!

[@CSGraves]

Can we get a video on 1095/nickel damascus with a dual grit edge? 😀

[@HeavyForge]

I guess it’s natural to talk up the thing you’re making. Really enjoy these vids! I’d gladly send you a bar of Wootz for testing!

[@KnifeSteelNerds]

That would be great!

[@erikcourtney1834]

A bar of wootz 1095 and pure nickel would be very interesting. I’ve been wanting to dabble in some wootz but I’m going to fail many times. I don’t like to fail so I’m stuck between a rock and a hard place.

[@erikcourtney1834]

@@-Craptastic- I completely agree with what your saying. I’m usually really good at figuring things out and making things work with a high success rate. But making steel is a whole different ballgame. I can’t predict an outcome or see what happening until a bar is made. Then followed by multiple test to find out if the mixture and procedure is right or needs tweaking. There so much that goes into making steel from scratch. Tons of different variables, not to mention figuring out the right heat treatment. Almost makes my head spin thinking about it🤦‍♂️.

[@erikcourtney1834]

@@-Craptastic- lol thanks man, yeah it’s a deep rabbit hole and can get quite expensive. If I can get a recipe and procedure to get me started I might give it a go. It would be pretty awesome to produce my own steel.

[@johndenver5029]

​@erikcourtney1834 "stuck like a slab of nickel in bar of wootz", I always say

[@realbroggo]

Great vid. As an amateur steel nerd myself I love getting factual information regarding steel attributes and performance. I love getting insight into heat treating. Too many knife users focus on the steel and forget the heat treatment. There are some crazy 'Damascus' steel myths out there that continue to perpetuate (thanks in most part of clever marketing) as most people don't understand what it really is and how it's made. Nothing beats actual research and testing. Sharp blades all.

[@RedBeardOps]

Good stuff as always sir

[@amitzdullnicker2k]

Love your work, thank you for all the research! ❤ Just bought your new book and am very much looking forward to Amazon sending it to me... 👍🏻

[@WhatsthePOINT_EDC]

That’s the most in depth I’ve ever seen a metal testing. You have passed Legendary status and went straight to Hephaestus status. 🤘👌👊

[@xxitz_pr0gxx631]

When I start to show interest in a particular topic, I make it my mission to find the person of the particular subject, who pretty much know a lot more than everyone else in the subject. I don't like people that water down the information, like they are talking to a bunch laymen. I appreciate proper terminology and I am a sucker for all the specs you can possibly show/tell me. You are that person, my friend! This video has amazing and articulate information, that I don't think I would be able to find anywhere else on KZbin!

[@ajvc2233]

Great video, and thank you for publishing your findings here for free. I really think progress and innovation comes from that.

[@MoswenMedia]

I read the article you did on your website comparing a lot of the alloys in edge retention, and it's crazy how much someone could learn from just 1 single article. It conformed quite a few personal theories I had on the qualities certain metals gave to the alloy, and I learned at least half the amount of information of everything I knew about cutlery alloys just from one single article.

[@zacheven7379]

The damascus cutting effect has a parallel in nature. Beavers' front teeth are harder in the front than the back, so the back wears down more quickly...not sure how those would do in a CATRA test though.

[@petergerdes1094]

Huh, that's super interesting and raises the possibility that if you microenginered the blade right you might even be able to make it self-sharpening.

[@williambehnke3381]

Bravo! Very good presentation! Thank you for your research and sharing.

[@NKG416]

i'm so grateful that i live in the same age as you, this level of knowledge is priceless

[@danwerkman]

Fantastic work and information. Thank you for sharing your findings with the community.

[@joshuadadad5414]

AMAZING work. Thank you so much for sharing.

[@meisteredel3021]

Ty for sharing your work! I myself mainly use monosteel for my knives but the few damascus knives I made share their attributes with your study 😁 Pleasure to listen to you and greetings from Germany!

[@darksi226]

Wow!!! Very impressive study! Information overload. You thought of so many variables. I bought your other book before watching this. Please continue with your amazing vids!

[@phobiarg]

Thanks Larrin for taking the time to do this study. I was searching for an answer to this exact question, not exactly "damascus vs super steels" but more or less high carbon damascus vs super steels. Im very much a function over form type of person and it flabbergasts me when someone spends thousands on a "high end" custom knife made with 1084 and 15N20 damascus, when there's modern steels that will perform better for significantly less labor.

[@Brokentwobutton]

Its the opposite of "form over function" if you don't understand how someone else might appreciate an interesting pattern and clean/ornate hand-crafted fitment over a specific performance engineered metallurgy.

[@petergerdes1094]

@@BrokentwobuttonIf they know that's what they are getting that's fine, but I suspect they believe they are getting the best performance because of they didn't think that it wouldn't be that hard to use the better metallurgy and still get the nice pattern.

[@jimmylarge1148]

@@petergerdes1094nowadays nobody trusts Demascus it’s been done so badly for so long 😂

[@petergerdes1094]

@@jimmylarge1148 That's true for people who watch knife channels but most people don't especially if they are buying them as a present.

[@samhenderson2947]

Amazing. Thankyou for sharing this. A lot of work.

[@xunfan7385]

Damasteel's toughness is quite impressive, 15 ft-lb at 61, it's higher than the current CPM-154 rating by 50%? reminds me the old mystery CPM-154 specimen :-)

[@gvsly2008]

I would love to find a pocket knife with 3V/154CM but I rarely see info on what the composition is on a Damascus knife on a given site/shop.

[@KnifeSteelNerds]

If it was 3V/154CM Damascus it would say so.

[@sloanNYC]

Physics/chemistry is always surprising! It makes sense that how it is layered vs the edge would have a huge impact. Super interesting.

[@moonman6359]

This is remarkable. Great job!

[@edmundguzman7813]

Fantastic work. I will be getting your new book and I will be signing up for patreon to support your work. Thank you! Thank you! thank you, Larrin!!!!

[@GibsonCutlery]

Super interesting! Some big surprises in there for sure.

[@Nick-dw3sv]

Very well put together study bravo, definitely alot of data to take in. Definitely would like to see how a few different compositions of Wootz steel fall into this chart.

[@me2bfc]

I don’t follow knives to much anymore, but this has my attention.

[@DroneChannelUSA]

Wow just wow you are a legend! thx for sharing so openly !!

[@gravytrainoutdoors]

This is fantastic information. I had a custom made with 15n20/nickel damascus in a predator pattern which left 5mm plus sections of the cutting edge with the softer nickel exposed. It proved to be non functional knife because of this. It’s neat that you had Seth Burton’s steel to test. He lives about 30 minutes away from me on Salt Spring Island. I would love to one day visit his shop.

[@blueswan2175]

thanks for all the legwork,something i've always wondered 👍👍

[@TonySeverioKnives]

Awesome info Larin! Thanks for the video.

[@afroniner11dy12]

You mention that carbon diffuses very rapidly at forge welding temperatures and that the carbon content between the layers becomes homogenous for typical damascus layer counts. I know there are many applications such as Japanese chisels, san-mai knives, and axe heads where it is common to forge weld a hardenable bit to a low carbon steel. This has been done successfully historically so I'm wondering if you could shed any light on how far the carbon diffuses and if there are any heat treating techniques that should be applied to minimize the carbon from the bit diffusing out into the mild steel. If you forge welded a thin hardenable steel to a thicker mild steel is it possible that enough carbon could be drawn from the edge that the steel won't harden or the cutting performance is compromised?

[@jeremymcadam7400]

That's a really good question

[@samuelbelangerdallaire6486]

Wow that was incredible. You should reach out to some steel manufacturers to provide you with some steels. Usually the more information there is on the topic, the more it brings attention to their product. Also, that's where you see which manufacturer has high confidence in their product when they are willing to supply materials for a third party, unbiased study comparing things to their competitors. Also, let me know for your next study, depending on economic timing, would be keen to send some materials your way.

[@tacticalcenter8658]

41:28 i noticed you did two hardness's for damasteel and did toughness testing on both but only edge retention testing on the lower hardness one. Was just curious why the higher one was not on the esge retention chart? I also noticed the protocols that were used for the damasteel were slighly different than the ones from damasteels datasheet. Can you explain why? I can make assumptions but id rather not.

[@KnifeSteelNerds]

I’m going to do a separate video on Damasteel heat treating

[@tacticalcenter8658]

@@KnifeSteelNerds nice, looking forward to it.

[@ReluctantLightningForge]

Amazing! That is so much work and the results a great! Thank you!

[@mikehalfmoonmullins404]

This is why I love this channel , you can't argue with proven facts ...

[@tomlewis4382]

Thanks, great video. I remember Bill Moran saying a twist pattern cut better than the other Damascus patterns.

[@Dookie69uk]

I was hoping one day you would get to Damascus steel, Larrin. Fascinating research and very surprising. Thanks a bunch for all the hard work.

[@B61Mod12]

Thanks for doing the hard yards. Bought your book.

[@RealDallasFed]

Damn, thanks Larrin. Thanks for using your own money and money donated to you for the material used in the research. AND A BIG THANKS TO POPS FOR RAISING SUCH A COOL SON AND THE EFFORT PUT INTO THE MATERIAL USED IN THE RESEARCH. I honestly wish I had a dad that was as cool as yours. Mine is currently passed out, drunk.... like he is every day.

[@micgalovic]

Great video, thank you a lot

[@legbreaker5376]

I’m definitely going to get your book at first. I thought you were a little arrogant but after watching the episodes, especially this one I can see your love for the art and I appreciate it.

[@NORTHWESTKNIFEGUY]

Fascinating stuff, love your videos.

[@knifesharpeningnorway]

Yeah i love it. Happy to see you mate 😊

[@NORTHWESTKNIFEGUY]

@@knifesharpeningnorway 🙂

[@jzimmt]

Simply WOW! Amazing info

[@daveasharps]

Throw your patreon link in the description! I love these studies and want to see you keep being able to do stuff like this! Also a discord linked to your patreon would be sweet!

[@StereoTyp0]

Hi Dr. Thomas, does your new book talk about any of the efforts to recreate historical Wootz steel?

[@KnifeSteelNerds]

There is a chapter on that

[@StereoTyp0]

@@KnifeSteelNerds nice, I'm excited to check it out!

[@sm00fe]

Massive underrated content. It is crazy how much work and effort you put into your videos. Keep up your work! Greetings from europe :)

[@Tonioostendorp]

Very interesting, thank you for all the effort.

[@AC-lq4zw]

Thanks for all your hard work!

[@OreoDave]

Thank you for doing the science to make the community better informed. 👍👍

[@garetkonigsfeld2]

What a great comparison.

[@user-hn9fr7mn3x]

I feel like all that new copper and steel Damascus stuff that everyone is making would be really good at this

[@Roberthoven]

Fascinating!

[@flipflat4814]

How couldn't you learn something 😄 thank you, and thanks to the patreon members 👍👍👍.

[@johnhaaff5930]

Incredibly well done and informative.

[@jackmclane1826]

When you have a material with randomly occuring defects - like every type of damascus (forge welding can never be completely defect free in a large area), toughness becomes depending of the material volume under test (Weibull distribution). If the test piece cut out of a sheet is - by chance - defect free, it may do well in testing. If there is a defect, it will fail early. So nobody knows if 1084/15N20 is a tough combo, or just picked a good part for testing.

[@KnifeSteelNerds]

This assumes that multiple samples didn't have defects. But we found defects and it still tested well, so the presence of defects is not necessarily a guarantee of poorer performance. In this case the distribution and orientation of the defects in the 1084/15N20 did not appear to be deleterious for the toughness test.

[@rre9121]

I know you probably already want one, but an SEM with EDX would be an incredible addition to this study. You could look into how much diffusion is happening between the layers.

[@addytuney2028]

thank you for these insights!

[@cledisonrafael4804]

Lerrin sua paixão pelo aço é admirável! Também compactuo dessa paixão por isso posso com toda a sinceridade apreciar seus esforços para obter todos esses resultados em testes e análises. Só posso humildemente agradecer por nós disponibilizar esses trabalhos e resultados incríveis de graça

[@Mrplacedcookie]

Thank you.

[@ZymethShinsey]

Amazing research

[@Obsidian-One]

Thank you so much for your work, You Are Awesome!

[@CarlosVixil]

I don't know how this will apply in my life but I find it fascinating.

[@eddielittleii8919]

Fascinating, thank you for the hefty content.

[@ohiovalleyforge5383]

I would love to do a bar of Damascus that is ladder patterned 52100 with pure nickel. From my understanding of the information you provided I should see a similar result as the 1095 and nickel as far as performance upgrade over the carbon steel alone correct?

[@cavemandanwilder5597]

Very interesting. Now for the obvious next question: who wants to make me a 1095 and Nickel Damascus bird and trout knife? 😁

[@RobinJamesEricBond]

"and there are many many color pictures in the book" Is that a hint at us, the audience? :P Epic results though. I too did not expect that the damascus cutting effect was true, at least not to this extent.

[@KnifeSteelNerds]

I like color pictures

[@knickly]

Incredible work as always, Larrin! And such a surprise. I'm sure we all wonder what ApexUltra and nickel would do.

[@Slay_No_More]

I was just wondering if this video came out. I just remembered asking about Damascus a while back.

[@alphaneuron9045]

Really thoughtful experiments. Would like to see the toughness and Carta results of the individual components in the graph, although I know you mention it. Just like to see it for comparison. Easier to compare. Will you be publishing this in a peer reviewed journal?

[@ohiovalleyforge5383]

When restacking the 1095/nickel combo is it a concern to have nickel layers adjacent to each other for forge welding? Will the nickel forge weld to itself in these circumstances or does there need to be additions made when restacking?

[@countk1]

Well this sheds some light on the issue and job well done on researching on a proper level. Never thought this myth had truth to it. I imagined it was a good steel in it's time, but it makes sense how you explain it. Love the overload on data as well as a former mechanical tester. Food for challenging my colleagues ;)

[@jeffhicks8428]

Devin Thomas knives are the absolute pinnacle of cutlery.

[@Tincad4]

Listening to this on my drive to the 2023 NZ Knife Makers Symposium....

[@gnpd07]

Will you please tell me the best place to purchase a quality Damascus steel skinning knife? Something with about a 4'' blade, or slightly shorter.

[@tripleceas]

This is why I don’t usually buy Damascus or Damsteel blades. I’ve never seen a knife maker that lists the composition. Do any of them?

[@KarlBAndersen]

I don't know any that don't.

[@ianstiehl1994]

I've never seen a reputable smithy who doesn't

[@jeddediajohnson9179]

I just purchased a knife today and was given the composition. It is 1095 high carbon with nickle steel alloy in a ladder pattern.

[@kailashblades]

Absolutely wild results

[@titanbladeworks]

Brilliant video! have youever tried pattern welded steel with 8670 as one of the alloys?

[@KnifeSteelNerds]

I haven’t. In terms of performance it should be roughly similar to L6 and 15N20 when used in a Damascus mix.

[@weedmanwestvancouverbc9266]

Vanadium carbide ends up on grain boundaries, preventing the propagation of defects from one grain Boundary to another

[@matchesburn]

Did your father have any thoughts on the findings, being a master smith and well-known damascus knife maker? (I was also surprised that layer count had no real impact on edge retention in the AEB-L/154CM study... I thought for sure it would make some difference.) I have to be honest, I've always loved the way that damascus blades looked. I defy anyone to say that they're not beautiful... ...But... I never really considered them serious use knives and shied away from buying them because it just didn't seem likely that it could hold up anywhere near as well as purpose-built or traditional knife steels in edge retention.

[@KnifeSteelNerds]

Maybe I can do a followup interview with him for the channel

[@matchesburn]

@@KnifeSteelNerds If he'd be willing, that would be interesting. Having both the maker/smith side and the metallurgy side perspective would be fascinating.

[@chriswebb3018]

​@@KnifeSteelNerdshaving your father on as a follow up video would be interesting.

[@NobodysDarling138]

I would love to see you do some tests with bertie retfield's Damascus desighns/compositions! He is really incredibly talented and makes really crazy beautiful interesting Damascus.

[@NobodysDarling138]

Also, can you get a sample of real ancient Damascus to test? I hear we still don't know how to make it.

[@sisseeboy]

Very cool dive, man.

[@zachd2305]

Hey Larrin, Fantastic work again! I have a question and would value any input from you. I have been making stainless Damascus using AEB-L and 304, do you think the 304 would perform much differently than the 302? Also, from the testing that included 302 i gather that when making stainless Damascus its not necessary to inlcude a solid core layer in the final billet to ensure high quality knife steel for the cutting edge, would you say thag is accurate or would you suggest including that core layer?

[@nafis6668]

I was about to buy Sakai Takayuki VG10-VG2 Coreless Damascus , but it does not have that ladder pattern damascus on it. Superb effort sir, my gratitude!

[@ElonaldTrusk]

Thank you

[@russtuff]

I wonder what the layer boundaries would look like under an electron microscope. Hey @BreakingTaps any chance for a collab here?

[@OldSolidSnake]

I'm kind of a rookie when it comes to metallurgy. However, I would like to see the top 10 super steels to be combined whilst still in powder form before being made into knives, then test one after being made. Hell, why not the top 20 steels equally combine into a knife? What would be the • Edge retention • Toughness • Corrosion resistance • Sharpening ease be?

[@dasdet6505]

is the lesson here that nickel is made of literal magic?

[@HellGatefr2]

Great work, in your conclusions you say that layer count did not affect edge retention, but also that ladder pattern improves edge retention. Do you confirm that even though there might no longer remain a visible pattern because of 3000+ layers, there is still that "saw-like" effect which is beneficial for edge retention ?

[@e991e]

Legendary video once again bro

[@MisterDeets]

IF 1095 and Nickel damascus in a ladder pattern performs so well, I wonder what Apex Ultra and Nickle in a ladder pattern would do?...

[@user-hn9fr7mn3x]

Finally. I’ve been calling for testing like this for years! 👌🏻

[@BohemianKitsch]

the question makes sense. i would guess that the question of Damascus vs 2 super steels is assuming that there is a "true Damascus" that is an amalgam of specific materials.

[@sodazman]

Great video! I wonder how this translates to sword making which uses a slicing motion rather than chopping. So the wear patterns should be quite different. I have a vintage katana made with Honsanmai steel - which has both soft and hard properties. It's also folded and heat and clay tempered. No idea how durable it is though.

[@stuartli16610]

So all in all which combination has the best hardness, edge retention and toughness?

[@michaelvaughn7137]

Im super curious about difficulty in sharpening between the different steels ? Because I find that these steels with higher edge retention people have a hard time sharpening and there for never use the knife once it has dulled because its so difficult to sharpen .

[@timbirch4999]

I keep trying to tell this to the newbie dweebs who want to talk about The Best Steel. Because they haven't yet realised that everything is a trade-off. You go trekking through the Amazon and there's no way you want some super-hard stainless knife, or 80CRV2 because you'll never get that thing sharp again without a 2x72 grinder. Take something much softer and in a pinch you could get it sharp on a rock if need be.