Daniel Smith Color Showdown S2E9: Alizarin Crimson vs Permanent Alizarin Crimson

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/ otokano
In this series we compare two very similar Daniel Smith watercolors through swatches. Learn the differences between the two colors, which one you should pick for your palette, or find out that they are both worth having!
In this episode, we compare two colors that are suppose to be the same, Alizarin Crimson vs. Permanent Alizarin Crimson. Are they the same color?
For closer look at these swatch sheets: / otokano
** Supplies I used **
+ Alizarine Crimson (Daniel Smith) www.jacksonsart.com/daniel-sm...
+ Permanent Alizarine Crimson (Daniel Smith) www.jacksonsart.com/daniel-sm...
+ Cadmium Yellow Light (Holbein) www.jacksonsart.com/holbein-w...
+ Cadmium Yellow Orange (Holbein) www.jacksonsart.com/holbein-w...
+ Vermilion (Holbein) www.jacksonsart.com/holbein-w...
+ Permanent Red (Daniel Smith) www.jacksonsart.com/daniel-sm...
+ Quinacridone Rose (Daniel Smith) www.jacksonsart.com/daniel-sm...
+ Quinacridone Violet (Holbein) www.jacksonsart.com/holbein-w...
+ Ultramarine Violet (Schmincke) www.jacksonsart.com/schmincke...
+ Ultramarine Blue (handmade by me)
+ Phthalo Blue Yellow Shade (Holbein) www.jacksonsart.com/holbein-w...
+ Phthalo Turquoise (Daniel Smith) www.jacksonsart.com/daniel-sm...
+ Viridian Hue (Holbein) www.jacksonsart.com/holbein-w...
+ Permanent Green No. 1 (Holbein) www.jacksonsart.com/holbein-w...
Papers
+ Bockingford 140lb CP watercolor paper www.jacksonsart.com/bockingfo...
+ Bockingford 140lb HP watercolor paper www.jacksonsart.com/bockingfo...
+ Bockingford 140lb Rough watercolor paper www.jacksonsart.com/bockingfo...
+ Arches 140lb CP watercolor paper pad www.jacksonsart.com/arches-aq...
Other Tools
+ Gauze www.otokano.com/shop/gauze-fo...
+ Pro Arte Prolene Plus size 12 round brush www.jacksonsart.com/pro-arte-...
** Shop **
Handmade watercolor paints & original artworks
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** Connect with Me **
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+ Instagram: / otokano_art
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** My PO Box **
Oto Kano
PO Box 24120
Edinburgh
EH7 9FB
United Kingdom
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[@annedavis3340]

I inherited a floral painting from my grandmother. She kept it in her windowless basement. It's truly garish now, she patently used Alizarin and my has it faded. It's very sad, it's one of the few things from her I have. I wish she had used more lightfast pigments. Maybe she didn't know what she was using could fade. People who now persist in using it despite its widely known lightfastness issue, may be inadvertently setting their grandchild up for the same. Of course, we paint for our own joy, but sometimes some little thing we never think of again may be absolutely cherished by someone else. Someone using Alizarin in a painting they intend to actually SELL is a different matter, entirely, and, I think, rather unscrupulous indeed.

[@annedavis3340]

It was as faded as it is when I inherited. I keep it in a box to try to protect what's left of it.

[@jillwiswall5386]

I love true Alizarin and, as I work primarily in an art journal, I’m not too concerned about the lightfastness. But I think the Permanent does a good enough job that if I were working on a piece to hang, I’d be okay using that. Thanks for this closer look at these paints! This was very helpful!!

[@OtoKano]

So glad this comparison was helpful to you Jill. Thank you for watching!

[@Zumzumfoxy]

Permanent Alizarin.. if I am investing my time and materials I demand that my final work hold up to time- especially for my clients who buy the originals. The red-violets worked well enough for me in mixing with carbazole purple as a workaround rather than mixing with cobalt, pthalo (gs) or cerulean chromium. I don’t regret the extra expense for peace of mind, as I’ve repainted paintings which were fugitive before (in non-DS brands) back when I was only selling prints. I see no reason to buy fugitive at all, and can’t justify doing so for fun because I’m so passionate about the quality of my work vs time.

[@OtoKano]

It's really great that you are so passionate about the quality of your work.

[@Zumzumfoxy]

Dr. Oto Kano thank you very much! I have watched all your videos and they are very valuable when I was upgrading to Daniel Smith. :)

[@OtoKano]

I am so so glad that they have been helpful to you!

[@cmbergersct3492]

How about buying it to use only for prints? Does it reproduce just as it looks - without the use of a fugitive ink?? Or would a print have to use alizarin original in order to reproduce the copies of the original?

[@KJayPlays]

Thank you for this video. I love that you represent both sides of the 'fugitive vs. permanent' conundrum ❤️

[@OtoKano]

Kirstine Jensen Aw thank you and thank you for watching & commenting on the video!

[@_GreenSkies_]

I love this series, and I'm really pleased that you hit on these two colors... I work in an art supply store and I get asked this kind of stuff frequently. Edit: I use the regular alizarin whenever possible... its so beautiful

[@Mz.Winona]

thank you for this video, wasn't sure which one to add to my mixing pallete, which will be the AC... I will add the PAC to my specialty palette. ❤ Your videos

[@mikepolo2887]

As much as I love the hue of the real thing, the permanent alizarin crimson is on my palette for quite some years and I am totally happy with it for what I use it for. If I need a cooler color, I just use quin rose.

[@Dan.B.Artist]

most genuine versions ive tried fade even out of the sunlight. i tend to use other cool reds as the perm alizarine varies between brands. its really helpful to see the two compared side by side.

[@OtoKano]

Penholder Art it’s such a shame that they fade so quickly!

[@MassimilianoDeliso]

Love, love, love Alizarin Crimson! In my palette though I prefer to have different reds. Great video as usual, cheers!

[@OtoKano]

Massimiliano Deliso you are so welcome, thank you for watching it!

[@FarlyCreates]

This is my first video to watch of yours. I’m a novice with watercolors and have a feeling that I’m going to learn A LOT from watching your videos! Came from Minnie’s video!

[@OtoKano]

Aw thank you so much for coming by and watching my videos! Really hope you enjoy this channel and it's lovely to have you here.

[@FannyMMOs]

Hey, it was sooo sweet of you to send Minnie those watercolours to try out! So here I am following your channel from now on. Stay awesome! : )

[@OtoKano]

Aw thank you so much for visiting and subbing! I love Minnie so much.

[@EveBolt]

I love pr83 so much, I'll always have it near. even if not suited for originals for sale. It's a really unique hue :)

[@OtoKano]

I totally agree with you! It's such a precious beautiful color.

[@MelanCholy2001]

Hey Eve (and Oto)! I just bought ANOTHER tube of Alizarin (PR 83) 😂 and 😭 Glad I'm not the only one who likes the PR 83 and continues to use it. For JOY! And the permanents are *no joy* for me (except M. Graham's, but that's really just pyrrol crimson at least, not a multi-pigment wannabe of alizarin). I wonder if every painter ever goes on hunts for a single pigment "decent substitute" for PR 83? 😂 I have so many stupid red tubes I'll probably never use up in an attempt to "discover" a red that comes close to PR 83. I can't figure out WHY a big paint company (Schminke, D.S., whoever) can't toast PV19 into a decent substitute for PR 83?! I wanna go to a factory and get behind the wheels and try it myself! It CAN'T be that hard! I fear I have all the PV19s running the gamut of hues but NONE act like PR 83?! They've gotta be holding out on us, right?

[@hannahthufvesson]

I just got the Schmincke Permanent Carmine, and though it seems slightly pinker than the Alizarin Crimson in hue it Does seem to mix very similarly! It's not perfectly transparent, but it has an incredible glow, both on its own and in the mixes. DS Permanent Alizarin Crimson (really easily) makes an amazing black with my White Nights PG7 though.

[@heathercatlady546]

Oh my goodness, I’m so glad I caught every bit of this episode! Thank you for including the tongue twisting name practice! As for alizarin crimson, I’ve never tried it. The pale wash of pink does look beautiful, though. Thank you for all the hard work you put into this series. Have you ever tried to mix a faux alizarin crimson to see if you could produce something closer to the original than what DS makes?

[@OtoKano]

Heather Catlady I am so glad you saw it to the end! 😂 that is an interesting question, I will see if I can mix the permanent one with something else or be closer to the genuine one.

[@taylorkh818]

I love Alizarian Crimson and have been sorely disappointed by the more lightfast formula of Permanent Alizarian Crimson. One of my favorite things about Alizarian Crimson is the beautiful purple mixes it can achieve, which the more red Permanent version cannot do. I still use Alizarian Crimson, but I keep only one pan of it in my travel pallet and use it only in sketchbooks. The few loose pieces I've used it on will be coated with a lightfast varnish.

[@LanaGoesArt]

I never would have known that. The mixes are really different and the difference in hue so apparent in them. Thanks for making the comparison!

[@OtoKano]

LanaGoesArt you are so welcome! Thanks for watching the video Lana.

[@LanaGoesArt]

Oto, you know, that I watch every of your videos, right? :D I honestly enjoy every single minute of it. :)

[@OtoKano]

LanaGoesArt of course I do, and I am very grateful for you 😊 you comment on every video too, which I am also very grateful for!

[@LanaGoesArt]

It's my way to support the artists and people I like :)

[@anam00090]

Love the hue of the original pigment. Bought the Permanent version in hopes of having it as my primary cool red, but it turned out to be too close to Perylene Red and a warmer hue. It not mixing bright purples was a really bad sign :( Seeing these mixes just makes me sad for the original's fugitivity. Love Quin Rose, but I see why people can't let this color go - it's deeper in mass tone and seems more useful for me on its own... Also, great new series idea! Will try to contribute this time ^_^

[@OtoKano]

I am the same with you, I'm primarily a Quin Rose type but I do love how gorgeous the fugitive Alizarin Crimson is. But yes, Quin Rose is much better for making nice purples.

[@gorway7]

After hearing much debate on Alizarin, I did do a test myself last year, using Winsor Newtons - Alizarin and Permanent Alizarin, doing a swatch of each laid from mass tone to tint then cut the strip in two down the middle. I taped one piece to my grantedley north facing window ledge and the other in the back of my sketchbook. I left it out from about April to mid September by which time the cheap Crawford & Black watercolour paper I had from "TheWorks" had become quite yellowed (whether this was optical yellowing or just general dirt I don't know) Comparing the two though after nearly 6 months of light exposure I was surprised just how little difference there was. It was obviously difficult to make an accurate assessment as the paper had changed colour and it only had at most about 2 hours of direct sunlight early morning and late evening but there was no visible loss colour even in the pale tint. I know in the scale of things this no real test but it was good enough for me. As stated in a previous comment, I do not really save my artwork but I am happy enough certainly that stuff I do in my sketchbook is not going to somehow disappear with a "Poof" - Well not in life time.

[@natlisan]

Even though I try to stay away from fugitive colours, I sometimes have no other option. I use a couple coats of a Mat UV spray fixative which seems to work with no to minimal colour shift.

[@sherrikent6628]

So helpful, thank you.

[@OtoKano]

You are so welcome Sherri, thanks for watching the video!

[@tmp0922]

I will continue to use Alizarine Crimson it’s always been my favorite red. Great vid Oto. Thanks!

[@OtoKano]

I can totally understand why, it's so pretty. Thanks for watching!

[@angelairidescenceartglass6289]

I only own a tube of fugitive Alizarin Crimson to use as a comparison with the various substitutes...Sennelier’s two “permanent” versions are too brown, Perylene Maroon is deeper and kinda close, but not quite right. Best I’ve seen so far? Winsor & Newton’s Winsor Red Deep at least in mass tone is pretty close. It’s a single pigment color and it’s the same pigment M. Graham uses for its single pigment “permanent” Alizarin Crimson. Want to pick up the M. Graham version to see how it compares.

[@melissabailey2209]

Thanks for another great and informative video, Oto! This was a decision I recently had to make: which alizarin crimson to buy??? Although I am an illustrator and my work is immediately scanned and delivered digitally for the most part, some clients do ask if they can have some original art. Because of this, I did decide to buy the permanent alizarin crimson first. (There's a high probability that I'll also get M. Graham's alizarin crimson, which is fugitive, at some point in the future.) The part I was most interested in was seeing how that 3-pigment permanent aliz. crimson mixed with other colors--and it did just about what I thought it would. In the video, the mixes look just a teensy-weensy bit muddier than the alizarin crimson mixes. But that's ok for me--I'll probably use this more as a convenience mix than use it to make other colors (color consistency from illustration to illustration in a big project is key, and convenience mixes make this easy). Thanks for sharing your experience and opinions, Oto! Looking forward to getting more of your color insights!

[@OtoKano]

Melissa Bailey yes I would say that the permanent one mixes colors that are little bit duller, but not by much at all. That’s so interesting to know about illustrating for big projects, thank you for sharing 😊

[@missmix48]

Thanks for that

[@celestekat-hy6101]

Thank you Oto Kano for yours KZbin’s so appreciated. Would you please make once explication the difference between the quinacridone and the permanent... 🕊 😇 💕

[@bastet469]

Showdown Suggestion: Quinacridone Magenta (PR202) vs Quinacridone Fuchsia (PR202). Since PR122 is the most widely used pigment for Quin Magenta, yoy could add Quinacridone Lilac (PR122) for comparison's sake. With PR122 being so popular in other brands, I was pretty surprised when I saw that Daniel Smith only uses it in that one color.

[@OtoKano]

Thank you for a wonderful suggestions!

[@dynomax101]

There are possible permanent substitutes for alizarin crimson that would be better than DS's version. Alizarin is fairly permanent in oils, though there are film forming issues you will not have in watercolors. In acrylics, alizarin crimson is flat out fugitive. One of my personal tests in actual usage is, "Can I tell two colors apart when not in direct comparison? And does it make a difference?" If not, I go for the most permanent version. No matter HOW beautiful a color looks when first applied, if it will easily go bad in a picture meant to be hung on a wall, why bother using it? That would be very, very disappointing. Believe me, there are colors that make alizarin crimson look permanent, with a beauty that is astonishing, that I refuse to use for permanent art. Why ruin your work? Why take away a really good selling point? Yes, there are customers who will not touch your work if you use non-lightfast materials.

[@Donna_G]

I don't have Alizarin Crimson or Permanent Alizarin Crimson. But, for sketchbook art, I'd go with the Alizarin Crimsin because I like how it mixes with the other colors.

[@OtoKano]

You're right, it makes some lovely mixes with other colors.

[@anitahoward8506]

Thank-you for this comparison. Question, if you mix a low lightfast color with a high lightfast color, will the new blended color be a high lightfast color? Just wondering if I mix Alizarin Crimson with another color will it improve the lightfastness of the color?

[@jenniashbart8233]

My favorite red.

[@carlosdommar]

Geat vid. Have you tried another brand in your quest of a permanet alizarin crimson? As much I love PR83 after I have seen some dramatic lightfastness test I wonder why one would still buying that color.

[@OtoKano]

yes, I did a comparison of 12 brands here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/l5LGo2atrpt2bMk

[@renmuffett]

I suppose using a Anthraquinone red PR177 is a little more durable than PR83 but PR177 is rated as marginally lightfast. The ASTM rates its lightfastness in watercolors as "fair" (III, "may be satisfactory when used full strength or with extra protection from exposure to light") Perylene scarlet PR149 is rated marginally lightfast also by ASTM. The only thing in there that is better is the PV19. I'm certain they could find a better combo of red pigments what would be more durable than these pigments. I use PR264 as my replacement or Daniel Smith Carmine, PR176. The paint is a lovely color,very lightfast, slightly darker valued than Alizarin Crimson but very similar in hue. I will only use real Alizarin Crimson in my journals but not for the portraits I do that must be framed and exposed to the light of day.

[@markrosera6313]

Can you give me tips for making those color charts?

[@LeySketch]

Some fugitive colours are just too pretty to pass up! I mean, I could never use it in a painting I'd ever sell, but sometimes colours are just fun for sketchbooks and journals. Alizarin crimson is so beautiful and nuanced that the permanent version is such a letdown in comparison!

[@OtoKano]

I so agree with you! The real Alizarin Crimson has something very special about it.

[@empress_craft]

I think that Daniel Smith is the ONLY company that makes a Permanent Alizarin Crimson from 3 pigments. For the type of painting that I do, that's just not useable, even if the color is nice. The potential for mud is just too great! I'm currently testing PR209 Permanent Alizarin Crimson from Winsor and Newton to see how it holds up. I love PR264 from M. Graham, but not very pleased with it having LFII rather than LFI. Another one I am considering trying is PO n/a (Permanent Carmine) from Winsor and Newton and Sennelier to see how it holds up--but that requires a long term personal lightfastness test (none are currently provided), and being in Ireland right now doesn't really facilitate that. I might give it a go in France next year, though.

[@empress_craft]

Ah, just looked up on handprint... PO n/a (or PR n/a) only got a 6.7 rating from him, which is basically LFII. Soooo.... that may also not make it on my list! Why can't normal Alizarin Crimson be lightfast??? WAAAAHHH

[@empress_craft]

In fact, it seems many colors within the range of matching Alizarin Crimson PR83 have the same issue! PR177 and PR264 both score similarly with 6.7 or LFII. The Winsor & Newton PR209 Permanent Alizarin Crimson didn't exist when Bruce was testing for handprint.com so I may still want to conduct my own lightfast test, to be sure it's decent. Because if they all test around 6.7 / LFII... then I might as well go with the one that I like the most. But if one is LFI, I'll stick to it.

[@OtoKano]

It would be fascinating to know what your lightfastness result is going to be like! Please do let me know :)

[@zeynepaktan5489]

I actually went for the Alizarin Crimson and then I saw this :)... Although I'm happy of my choice :)

[@artycraftyalchemy]

It's such a hard choice, I adore the colours the Alizarin makes but I have the permanent. Think I will switch one day lol. Seeing them side by side the permanent looks flat.

[@OtoKano]

I know what you mean. In real life, the permanent one lacks the depth, or as you said, looks flat.

[@KJayPlays]

You don't have to "switch" though. I have them both and use each for their own purpose. Use the correct tool for the job, as my dad always said. :)

[@katpaints]

Interesting - and no, I no longer use Alizarin Crimson on my palette and haven't since I learned that it was fugitive. It is the same with Rose Madder Genuine - same basic source. On the other hand, I've not found that the commercial replacements are as pleasing as I would like either. I've bought Quin Pink for RMG. and have tried other paints to replace AC. It is frustrating. One of the things I saw years ago was that some of the fugitive colors are also not always closely reproducible in printing - out of gamut was a surprise to me. I need to dig out my old tubes of alizarin crimson and figure out what I used to replace it.

[@OtoKano]

Kathleen Roush you are right, the genuine colors are so hard to replace. They get close, but the hue colors seem to tend to lack in depth or luminosity.

[@katpaints]

Yes... which is why I will mix the color I want. Not as easy but often much more satisfying. My favorite palettes have been my original, large plastic palettes with a very large mixing area in the middle. The bits of colors that touch other colors give me a huge range to choose from. It is a bit awkward when painting en plein air - but I didn't know that was what I was doing! LOL! I just loved painting out of doors, dragging my easel, big palette, extra tubes and papers and all kinds of things that I 'might need'. LOL! I studied color in the 90's when the idea of fugitive colors became apparent, and that red, yellow and blue weren't the true triad, but that cyan, magenta and yellow were. It opened my eyes! I started painting with oils in the 70's, doing rosemaling. Alizarin Crimson, Cadmium Red, Cobalt and Ultramarine blues, Yellow Ochre and Cad Yellow, Ivory Black, Titanium White and Burnt Umber were basic. The green was a mixture of black and a yellow - always a dull, lifeless color. No Phthalo, no Quinacridones except in car colors.

[@OtoKano]

Your palette sounds gorgeous :D

[@katpaints]

They are just the inexpensive, but large palettes. My first was the Robert E Wood and the other is Stephen Quiller's. I have kept the Wood palette with more landscape paints - mostly liftable. Quiller's has his idea of what represents that spot on the color wheel. They are mostly heavily staining, more modern pigments. I have others, more traditional metal and some plastic folding, but I still go back to those first two. I'm enjoying your journey.

[@everartokelli]

I've never really gotten into the Alizarin Crimson habit, probably because I don't do a lot of florals, and am happy with Anthraquinoid Red and Quin Rose on my palette. That said, I do have the old Winsor & Newton Alizarin Crimson and it is a beautiful and glowy color--it manages to be pink and still radiate subtle sunshine, so I get why artists use it. I have both M Graham's Perm Alizarin Crimson and DS Perm Alizarin Crimson that I got from a friend, and I have to say that the DS version is way closer to the original than the MG version, which is the most staining color I own and much cooler than the original. It IS a beautiful, single pigment (PR264), deep crimson, just not an alizarin crimson :) There are just some pigments that glow and are unique, i.e. PY153, PO49, PY40 and PR83--may they all rest in peace.

[@OtoKano]

That's really good to know about the difference between MG and DS versions of the permanent ones. Thank you :)

[@NowhereBaby]

Yellow Ochre and Alizarin Crimson make lovely Caucasian flesh tones, while Yellow Ochre and Permanent Alizarin Crimson make orange, at least in the Winsor & Newton range. So what you're depicting has to be taken into account as well.

[@akanetando]

Does watercolor get old? Is there a risk by buying paints from a retailer that might have had the paint for a year or two in the store?

[@OtoKano]

I could never say yay or nay on this one. Some colors from some brands might turn, whilst others will be fine for years and years. You could get a bad batch or never get a bad batch. What I would suggest is to purchase your paints from someone who has excellent customer service so that if you do get a bad tube, they will be more than happy to exchange it for you.

[@katpaints]

The thing to remember is that as long as watercolor paint hasn't separated, old, dried-up tubes can be regenerated and be able to be used until it is gone. When it separates, letting the gooey stuff drain out might let you make it work again. No guarantee, though. I had a problem with an old but unused.Graham tube separating and called them up. They replaced it but said that it can separate when the paint isn't all the way to the edge of the tube. I had never heard of that before and hadn't used any of the tube before. I remoisten hardened tube paints in small food storage containers. used for food. It takes a bit of patience but saves a lot of money! Plus, some of my favorites are hard to get now.

[@mischabe3]

So, if I am painting a greeting. card, which doesn’t have to last, I will be using Alizaren. Crimson.

[@paulfogarty7724]

The differance is'nt big enough to stop me using the permanent instead. I just don't want to be painting with a beautifull invisible ink.

[@StrawberryLegacy]

Alizarin Crimson is so gorgeous :(

[@ianjackson5834]

i love Alizarin Crimson but as i sell original painting I have to compromise and use permanent Alizarin Crimson, its still a good paint even if it lacks that bit of extra glow, TFS.

[@OtoKano]

It certainly is a good replacement when lightfastness is key!

[@cynoglav9665]

I sometimes wonder why companies even sell the original Alizarin or why people buy it except for review purposes or "I'm doing a painting that's intentionally fugitive". Personally, I'm not a fan of the color for mixing in a split complementary palette (as I prefer a quinacridone rose) but if you're going to build a palette with it... why not just go for the permanent and save yourself the hassle?

[@OtoKano]

People have different tastes and uses for colors. And you are right, it's not a good split complimentary palette choice, the Quin Rose is much better for that.

[@KJayPlays]

I buy it for the exact reason Ms. Oto states. It's beautiful in it's own right, and I don't sell originals. It's easily explained. And I would be upset, if it was no longer for sale, just because some people think fugitive colours are a "hassle".

[@KatieReadsKoziesAndMore]

Alizarin Crimson is a magical color. But I’ll give a pass on both.

[@McQuizzical]

Anthraquinoid red pr177 is fugative so not a great choice for a permanent version really.