Menendian vs. Weissman = Would you INVEST in Reserve List Cards if WOTC would reprint them???

[@highestcarrot]

Weisman on point as usual. It's not just about the black lotus. The other two are a bit rude about it actually.

[@livelucky74]

Create vintage cards in MTG Arena and let people play tournaments on there. Brings more people to appreciate the old cards and pumps real life card prices.

[@CakeScouts]

Nice idea m9

[@Dustynbearz]

Yikes. Watching everyone interrupt each other is so frustrating. I see both points of view but damn chill

[@ReedStiles]

Great arguments here. I wish we knew the true answer! Watching this in 2021 is very interesting. "Reserved List doesn't matter": Alpha Sol Ring = $2,000; UNL Sol Ring = $140; Modern Commander Sol Ring = $5 "Reserved List matters": Alpha Word of Command = $1,000; UNL Word of Command = $400

[@vintagebenjaminshelly1882]

I'm a big menedian fan. I see Steve, I give a thumbs up.

[@Thebrianweissman]

I bet you’re not as big a Menendian fan as me!

[@EdwintheMagicEngineer]

Lots of respect for both of those guys Dan, Brian is of course a legend in Magic. Steven is easily one of the most well respected Vintage players and community members out there. So to see them both have such different opinions is VERY interesting to me. I'm NOT willing to immediately discredit either one of them, because I'm sure that both of them arrived at these opinions after lots of experience and thought. I'm going to have to watch this video several times and really think on the points of both sides. Having said that... I'm clearly starting out in Brian's camp and absolutely disagreeing with what Steven is saying about new printings having no effect. You sometimes state that opinion as well and I completely disagree. There are many factors that effect the end price duing the free market process of "price discovery". New printings removes any potential buyers whom would have wanted the old cards but just ended up going with new stuff because the cost of old was too great. Those lost buyers decrease WHAT WOULD HAVE BEEN a higher price. The big question is how much... hard to say. Does it effect the total price? Yes. How much? THAT is the question. In some cases a lot, in other cases... not much. I should make a video reply on this after I have really watched this closely. Perhaps Steven will convince me more of his perspective? I'll have to see.

[@naomisalama430]

I think that even if reserved list was abolished they could still not reprint the power and such things. I think that the important thing would be to reprint the dual lands to make legacy more accessible. That could bring the revised duals and maybe unlimited down a bit, but I'm pretty sure it wouldn't that much affect alpha or beta duals, and of course wouldn't affect power or vintage or oldschool collections as much. Interesting how a lot of discussion went around vintage and old school, but not legacy. I think that legacy is the real reason why taking down reserved list should be considered.

[@StizzardLizzard]

@@naomisalama430 The issue is trust, if they reprinted duals players would assume at some point they would do the same for power so the cards would take a massive hit anyway. Either all or nothing with the RL, IMO we keep it (Coming from someone who only owns a few revised duals and a beat unlimited jet)

[@naomisalama430]

@@StizzardLizzard that doesn't hold though, because WotC has edited the reserved list numerous times before and taken cards off from it. Also, I simply do not believe the argument that the power prices would take a significant hit even if the reserved list was killed, or even if they'd be reprinted. Unlimited ones could take a slight hit, as well as collectors edition ones, but I don't think that would be that significant, and alpha and beta would likely not be affected, like Steve argumented as well.

[@skooma970]

Hi, fresh outa law school here. This was an awesome video to watch. Promissory estoppel was mentioned and here’s my two cents. WOTC made a promise. A promise is made up of three elements: an offer, acceptance, and consideration. They made an offer to the world to refrain from print those cards and since the offer is a one way offer it does not need to be ratified by an acceptance. Now lastly you need consideration. Which is the bargain for exchange of a legal detriment. Meaning WOTC would have had to receive something in exchange for making the promise. If consideration is not found in a promise then the promise is illusory and there is no contract unless the exception of promissory estoppel. Which is when someone substantially realize on that promise and it would be unjustifiable to enforce the promise. If there is one thing I’ve learned in my contracts course it is that you don’t want to have your only argument be promissory estoppel because you will probably lose. May be a little more than two cents. Great debate keep them coming!

[@SoloFan87]

zak however one thing zak that was when WOTC was a privately owned company. Now Hasbro owns WOTC and Hasbro is a publicly traded company. There was never any contracts as it was verbal, check out Marvel vs Frank Miller concerning the Elektra character. Exact same ordeal with the verbal promise Elektra as with the Reserve List.

[@_andrew_370]

It's like saying because there's a 2019 Ford mustang, the '69 mustang is going to plummet in price. Reprints of reserve list cards would practically be different cards entirely.

[@RaEndymion]

This is such a good analogy.

[@AzyxA]

Power 9 and other extremely broken cards aside, the elegant solution (which it seems that Wizards may be experimenting with) is for them to slowly print cards over time that are very functionally similar or even more powerful than edh playable Reserve List cards. This solves the casual and edh demand while retaining the security of Magic's most iconic power cards.

[@coolfingers]

Vintage is not dead... it's undead... it was killed by WOTC by the lack of support and then it was revived by players in early 2000's with the use of internet and social media to bring people together... people with the same vintage cards and create groups and tournaments... 1999's I bought a vintage deck because a random friend of a friend used to play magic 5 years before and had a white/black deck with mox pearl, mox jet, scrublands, etc... otherwise it would be harder to acquire...

[@TheMr02drop]

I agree with Steve. Look at baseball cards....Honus Wagner had many cards printed over many years but collectors want that T206 card because there is so few of them. With there only being 1000 Alpha Black Lotuses ever printed it doesn't matter if you print new lotuses with different art/boarders/foil. Collectors want the original. Overall it would be a good thing because you could actually make Vintage an actual format that people could play at regular tournaments. Hell, being able to open a Black Lotus or Mox or original dual land again might actually get me to start playing paper magic again.

[@Svenburchard]

Weismann team reporting in! The promise keeps a lot of value and trust.

[@thirdwavefinance8154]

great debate! Firstly it’s important to distinguish the difference between price protection(via attempted price fixing) and price appreciation(i.e. rising prices). As far as price appreciation, it’s important to note major spikes occurring in the price of collectibles in the past several years; music records, comics, fine art, and even MTG cards (among other collectibles) have seen major spikes as global unproductive debt levels continue to rise (unproductive debt defined as debt that does not create an income stream to repay principle plus interest). Historically, temporary spikes in collectibles prices have been a common occurrence during major debt-based asset expansions (also know as manias or asset bubbles). However, the price protection originally intended by the reserve list policy is a distinct situation, somewhat similar to price fixing, but this economic situation is a bit odd because, in essence, you have a company that is unwilling to produce a product that they may be able to make a significant amount of money by producing. They are essentially creating a extreme self-imposed price fixing scheme by withholding supply. As in other price fixing schemes the beneficiaries of a policy are often clear but the secondary effects on all other groups are often overlooked. “The art of economics consists in looking not merely at the immediate but at the longer effects of any act or policy; it consists in tracing the consequences of that policy not merely for one group but for all groups.” - Henry Hazlitt In this case just as artificial price fixing attempts to support one particular industry, so too does the reserve list attempt to support a small group. A situation that has now been taken to the extreme due to temporary spikes in collectible prices. However, just as other price fixing schemes benefit one small industry at the expense of a larger group so too does the reserve list price fixing scheme benefit one small group at the expense of a larger group. Attempted price protection for the small group is clear but the negative effects on the larger group are clandestine: - a larger group of consumers is blocked from accessing a desirable product - a company that consumers have deemed capable of producing a product is blocked from additional profits - profits that are missed out on are unable to be deployed toward new ideas, projects, & products - production employment is inhibited by lack of proper supply to meet demand - A black market forms to meet consumer demand but does so in a way that is typically inefficient This is not unique to MTG products but fundamental in economics. This situation moves the economy away from the continuous and immediate democracy of the price system; a system that can be thought of as a constantly adjusting balance. Every minute, of every hour, of every day individuals are voting on whether more or less of a product should be produced. Every time they purchase an item they encourage its continued production at the expense of another item, and every time they decide not to buy they discourage its production, to the encouragement of another. This is a balance that will adjust regardless of the reserve list but does so much less efficiently because of it. “Price-fixing may often appear for a short period to be successful ... But the longer it is in effect the more its difficulties increase ... during and after World War II, some of the more fantastic errors of the bureaucrats were mitigated by the black market. In some countries the black market kept growing at the expense of the legally recognized fixed-price market until the former became, in effect, THE market ... The harm was both economic and moral. During the transition period the large, long-established firms, with a heavy capital investment and a great dependence upon the retention of public good-will, are forced to restrict or discontinue production. Their place is taken by fly-by-night concerns with little capital and little accumulated experience in production. These new firms are inefficient compared with those they displace; they turn out inferior and dishonest goods at much higher production costs than the older concerns would have required for continuing to turn out their former goods. A premium is put on dishonesty. The new firms owe their very existence or growth to the fact that they are willing to violate the law; their customers conspire with them; and as a natural consequence demoralization spreads into all business practices.” - Henry Hazlitt

[@ryanthompson4770]

Even if you forget about the power 9 cards, which would still be destabilized due to a break of the RL, the rest of the RL cards would tank to zero. Like it or not, collectors are valuable to MTG. It's not worth losing all of them to a reprint cash grab.

[@MrTVervolg]

I think Menendian is right... look at Psionic Blast for example, it was reprinted as a timeshifted card and as a promo, those reprints you can buy for less than a dollar (and some old school tournaments allow the timeshifted reprint because it is original art). But the Beta one still sells for at least $75 , because as an old school player/vintage player/collector you want to own the original card. I also believe that the Old School format had a significant role in the price spikes of the 93-94 cards (as did cryptocurrencies).

[@Jackaroo.]

Alpha and Beta prices aren't affected by the reserved list. The print runs were tiny. Really only Revised cards would feel a big impact from the dissolution of the reserved list.

[@nadacool]

Brian’s right. The reprints would only be valuable to a dead format, Vintage and close to dead format, Legacy. Where’s the demand for this reprinting, other than from a vocal MINORITY. The mystique and promise are worth so much more than the short term cash grab.

[@philiprobbins8089]

Agreed. A promise was made and I don't subscribe to the notion that we should discard or not honor a promise just because 'promises are broken all the time.' Alpha value is independent of the RL. The RL preserves mystique, integrity, and trust; regardless of secondary market opinion.

[@naomisalama430]

I definitely do not agree with calling legacy close to dead format. I also think that it would get an insane boost the second duals would be reprinted, if that was ever to happen.

[@naomisalama430]

Also, the devaluation point of reprints: if you look TODAY at the chronicles cards vs the legends cards, the legends ones are easily 10 times the worth of chronicles reprints. Exactly like stated: reprinting power today with alternate art premium foil cards would have none to extremely minimal effects on secondary market 93-94 original cards. So I agree that the reserved list has lost its original function, card value isn't bound to reprint policies anymore.

[@coolfingers]

According to Reprints... when Chronicles and 4th Edition was reprinted, it added more cards to the card pool of availability of rare cards... I can play a Dominaria Llanowar Elves the same way a Beta Llanowar Elves... but their prices are not the same due to the Set they come from... back then MTG was a TCG first and CC second... now a days is TCG and Investing vehicle... so if you print a vintage card, it should not affect the price of the vintage card since there is not more availability of that older card, but more people could play with newer versions of vintage card. There is a difference between the devaluation of something due to higher availability of options than the devaluation of something due to having more of the same... is like injecting paper money to an economy that will devalue its coin

[@nikkeiputter]

Brian won this debate, too. The reserved list does not only consist of Alpha Black Lotus. Wizard's promise generates collector's confidence in every reserved list card.

[@geraldpowell4403]

It would substantially change prices of unlimited though.

[@vintagemagic]

100% agreeda

[@naomisalama430]

@@vintagemagic and also for example the Italian versions of the dark or legends. Although I guess the majority of those cards is pretty low already. But there's still gems like Moat or Chains of Mephistopheles that are worth something.

[@snakeonia7542]

Im with Brian on this. Break your promises is a huge deal. I only buy RL because of this very quirk of being RL. Strictly invest and collect. Menedi always dodging argues 23-25 years the RL has been around, etc. never reprint these.

[@Possu81]

Promises are broken all the time, Players want this now, collector's doesn't care about new reprints etc... doesn't make a lot sense to me. Menendian is a little bit annoying being so aggressive in debate and weissman gets overran being too kind but he doesn't seem to have same kind passion to defense the list. Also dislike that comment that removing reserve list wouldn't mean reprinting automatically the cards again. If wotc removes reserve list and then decides not to reprint something on it, how sad and furious people would be after that?

[@Pringlesman]

Don't use a children's card game as a vehicle for investment based off a promise that could easily be broken tomorrow. Buy stocks, buy commodities.

[@snakeonia7542]

Pringlesman i have those as well. Nothing is safe. Especially if they strike the reserve list lol. Btw Commodities need traded to make any money. If you have been holding bbl of oil or oz of gold for 20 years your returns are piss poor.

[@zwc76]

Prices would stay the same, but the number of sales would probably drop to zero for any high end reprinted cards. After a longer while, price would drop to meet the new expected price for the nostalgia value. Example, beta bolts still go for a decent price and there is tons and tons of bolts in other sets. Would they reprint the power nine, the price hit would be huge, depending on the number of reprints. If they reprint too many, the price would tank like crash like mad. If they print a very limited number, then not much would change - but the availability would not change much either.

[@joe3224]

I just went all in on Thomas Kinkade prints, thanks for the sound investment advice!

[@johnl4421]

When the Reserved List was announced, I did buy a short stack of Demonic Tutors, and many other cards. Mostly playsets of uncommons. I did quickly finish off my set of dual lands. Of course, all non-rare cards were quickly removed from the lists. I am fairly sure that there are already folks that have a class-action already drafted.

[@naomisalama430]

Can we have a vote in the comments on if you would buy the high end stuff? I already went on record on the last video: 100% would NOT buy new art/new frame power. Would save and buy the OG. So 100% would invest in the high end stuff.

[@terenceybh]

Weissman is absolutely correct. If WOTC wizards reprinted reserve list, the value of RL cards would grow at a much slower rate (& some would not grow or even drop in price). I would like to pose a question to Steven (& his supporters) to make my point. Would Alpha Serra Angel or Sol Ring today be at a much higher price point IF they were RL cards and were not re-printed after ABU?

[@TavisKingsChannel]

I would continue to purchase old cards even if the reserve list was broken. I purchase them because I want the original version, not because of any company promise. Knowing that the reserve list was going to be broken, would not affect my decision to purchase old cards.

[@grouphug1013]

Then you're a fool. Reserved list prices will drop by 30-50% . If you want to lose that money , ill gladly take it off your hands.

[@TavisKingsChannel]

It's not about the money, the money is irrelevant. It's about the cards. I purchase the cards because I want them more than the money required to get them. The cards are more difficult to get than money. Money is still being printed, and I'll continue earning more of it. I have zero intention of ever selling the cards in my collection, regardless of their value. The only relevance that card value has for me is as a potential replacement cost.

[@TavisKingsChannel]

I never lose 30-50% of card value, because I never sell the cards. When I have a card and the value goes up or down, nothing changes for me because I still have the card. If I lose any money at all, it is 100% of the purchase price, because I never intend to sell the card to recoup the investment. I choose to lose that money every time I make a purchase, because I value the card higher than the money.

[@grouphug1013]

@@TavisKingsChannel I can understand that for low to mid priced cards. Personally i couldn't do that with cards priced higher than 500.00

[@naomisalama430]

All oldschool formats to my knowledge require original art and frame, except channel fireball so that can be played at GPs. That point came up as well so thought of affirming that.

[@bigbuffguy9589]

Okay, I agree more with Menendian, even if I'm unsure about every single one of his points. I favor abolishing the Reserve List. The way I look at this is similar to whether to ban an oppressive card. On the one hand, you have a group of people (those playing and enjoying the broken card) who will be negatively affected if it is banned. On the other hand, there is a larger group of people who are not enjoying the game due to the card's presence. So if Wizards bans the card, it's not that they "don't care" about the first group. It's just that they have other groups and factors to consider, and on balance, it's better to ban the card than not. In this analogy, the collectors are the people who are playing with the oppressive card. Yes, they will probably be hurt (though how much is probably overstated), but there is a much larger group of people who will benefit if they can play Vintage and Legacy because it is finally reasonably affordable. Not to mention existing Vintage/Legacy players who would like a more robust format with many more people to play with. I think Brian's suggestion that abolishing the Reserve List indicates that Wizards "doesn't care" about the collectors is a little disingenuous. They can still care but also reasonably conclude that for the greater good of the game, the Reserve List has to go. These kinds of decisions (weighing the pros and cons of a decision for a number of groups) are made by businesses, the government, and individuals all the time. And I understand that the amount of money for these individuals is larger in this case than in banning a card, but that does not move me. And as an aside, I don't think promissory estoppel really applies in the way the RL proponents think it does, but that's a discussion for another day. Anyway, other people can disagree, and that's fine. I don't think there's an answer that will make everyone happy.

[@DOBLE2CALIBeR]

Yugioh (reprint: the trading card game) player here. I've played the game for many years since i was a small child. There is this one particular card called Cyber Dragon that is one of my favorites and has been reprinted to hell and back. The ultimate rare version has never been reprinted and is worth considerably more than the rest. Good thing there are reprints because i would not have been able to have and use the card and develop a connection with it. That connection definitely played a part in me justifying purchasing the ultimate rare version in my adult years 13 years later, when I had the money to buy it. Reprints will probably decrease the price of some cards but not the ones that are the most iconic. With the increase in availability of the reserve list cards you will also have more people who will develop a personal connection with the cards just like how the older MTG player did back when these cards were being released. As someone who is only somewhat into MTG i would buy a lotus but only because I know how much it's worth and not because I fully understand the history of the game.

[@Josephhof]

THIS IS A DISCUSSION! jeez, i dont even follow MTG but i like a discussion that has 2 sides to it and it doesn't heat up on any side

[@Alachia]

This is a great debate. It's a shame the video is filmed in such a choppy and distracting format while they are traveling.

[@brianclark9318]

A reprint would only separate the tiers of investors The top tier would continue to drive the premium of the high end cards The lower tier would abandon those high end cards and buy the new reprints. In my opinion*

[@StizzardLizzard]

I think EDH is another very popular format that is bringing these older cards to life again too.

[@Checker222]

Not a fan of Steve- but I agree with him almost universally in this video

[@novelsandcrumbs3558]

I still agree with Menendian. If you want to keep the game growing then change is necessary; when the older players suck all their is out of this game with that mentality they can fill there graves with all that stubborn bull when they are dead and long gone:what will be left for the rest? Nothing but the dried up remains of a game that could of been something better. Reserve List? So much bull about the promise, about this, about that, they already broke the reserve List by reprinting certain cards in certain; quote on quote special sets. Doesn't show that the promise doesn't mean crap, just hurt feelings from older players on the way out.

[@ManaDrain315]

Hasbro should just shut down wotc, and sell all of wotc's IP to another subsidiary. That would probably get around all the legal hurdles of the reserved list.

[@TryHardNewsletter]

Reprinting vintage cards would not bring in new players to vintage, but it would make existing players leave vintage. It would not bring in new vintage players because A) the format is kinda bad, and B) it's not their generations "thing", and C) it represents a broken promise, and D) between playing standard and modern who has the time to learn a whole new meta. Magic isn't new, but there are new things in magic, so every generation can have a piece of it. And existing players would leave the format for loads of reasons too many to list. Even for people that play no formats seriously where a card like Drop of Honey is even an option, it is still commander legal, so it still has a presence (someone actually played it on a table behind me a few months ago). The cards have a presence. And they add mystique. And some people just like to throw a several hundred dollar cards down on the table, especially in tournaments where proxies are not allowed, it just makes them feel good. Honestly it seems ridiculous to believe that reprinting vintage is going to somehow create this huge demand for vintage and drive the price of the original vintage cards up. All it would do is turn vintage into a joke. The prices of old cards might not go down that much as the old crowd running on nostalgia refuses to use the new cards. But just the fear that the price of old cards will drop will make many people sell and cause the price to drop (nostalgia fueled buyers would keep it from dropping too much though). Hopefully this is just good cop/bad cop and you guys don't actually believe this nonsense.

[@naomisalama430]

Reprinting duals would probably create a big boom of new players for legacy, though, as well as making those more accessible in commander.

[@NLDesigns]

Vintage is dead because I have to use proxies to play the game which means that I can't play in a tournament to bring actual game play stats up

[@timothyvandenberg2905]

In 2004, only 8 years after the Reserved List was created, I invested HEAVILY into the Reserved List, *relying* on the RL's stability to make my investment a wise choice. This is LONG before the time Steven stated people started relying on the Reserved List. Many other people back then were thinking the same way.

[@vintagemagic]

what did you buy tim?

[@timothyvandenberg2905]

@@vintagemagic Back in 2004, it was a big investment (based on my income then) to buy the complete Revised 40-card Dual Lands playset (4x each), plus a complete set of White Beta (all white Rares, Uncommons, Commons) and a Playset (4x each) of ALL Beta Uncommons & Commons (but only 1 copy of any restricted card), along with some other playable Beta rares, an Antiquities Candelabra (only $70 back then), and many other such cards, etc. While not all of that was Reserved List, I would be extremely angry if Dual Lands or Candelabra, or anything on the RL ever gets reprinted (thus breaking the RL promise), since *I* took the initiative to invest then. Reprints would thus severely cheapen what I paid for 15 years ago, only 8 years after the RL was created. My whole point is: Steven is incorrect: There were, in fact, players like myself who fully understood the RL promise and thus bought cards, even way back then, knowing they would never be re-printed again, so we better acquire them while they were cheap. If the RL never existed, I would have never spent that $3K-$4K for all those cards back in 2004. Only wishing I had the funds to also buy a complete set of Power & Black Border Duals. The RL *mattered* in 2004 and still *matters* today.

[@AzyxA]

Same though I purposely traded into close to a full 40 card set of Revised Duals shortly after the Reserve List was established.

[@joshposh7239]

artists are illustrating the new cards on a Tablet vs. an actual hand drawn illustration back in the day

[@naomisalama430]

How would we know the reprints wouldn't be allowed? City of brass has been reprinted like ten times or something. Oldschool communities allow only the original art and frame versions. New art new frame power would absolutely not be allowed in the majority of old school circles.

[@sneibarg]

The gist of both arguments in this video is that there are two classes of people. There is the general player base, and there are investors. Brian says the reputation of WOTC would be trashed by the general player base even though Vintage is a dead format and the general player base does not have access to those cards. Stephen says it is not likely there will be proof that enough people relied on the RL. The real question that no one ever answers is whether a suit at equity, decided by a judge rather than a jury, is going to result in awarded damages to the investment class. That is going to be a partially arbitrary decision by virtue of it being a suit at equity. Additionally, it's really not Vintage or Old School driving the prices, but rather the hoarders limiting the supply. Like Stephen, I have followed these prices throughout the years and they've been pretty stable, possibly keeping up with inflation, until recently. Rudy is not the only person sitting on multiple pages of Juzam Djinns. On the contrary, I know of at least one more in Italy. I personally used to work on a page of them as well until I sold all but a play set.

[@timothyvandenberg2905]

Steven: When will the Copyright/Trademark expire???

[@ReedStiles]

I couldn't immediately find an answer to this for MTG. I remember seeing an article recently about Disney's expiring. Based on that I was thinking it was ~50 years.

[@dmarker21]

Did reprinting Serendib Effreet in a Masters set effect the value of the Arabian version? No. Did the reprinting of Lllanowar Elves in Dominaria effect the value of the ABU versions? No, it caused the ABU versions to SPIKE in price. Did the rumor of Counterspell being printed in Modern Horizons cause the price of ABU and old cardframe counterspells to tank? No, they spiked in response. Why would the 93/94 printings of a reserved list card be any different? This doesn't even have to do with OS. Standard/Modern players wanted to play with ABU version of Llanawar eleves, Counterspell, etc. How do Dan and Brian address these set of facts?

[@dmarker21]

Dan - how many times has Shivan Dragon been reprinted? Do you think someone contemplating whether to buy an Alpha Shivan cares whether or not it will be reprinted in Core 20? Hell no :)

[@rabblerouser5559]

What if the list was abolished, but with advance warning? 5 years out?

[@davidbaker9412]

This is a good conversation, but you are all asserting opinions. There is a basic assertion being made that reprints will not impact the value. To answer this you need to determine your customer base (how many investors, how many collectors, how many players), what are their behaviors and values vs supply/demand, then you need to build the cause/effect model to see how the competing forces interact.

[@bofaybaykweh]

i think the bigger argument here is about legacy, not vintage. the power 9 are a huge deterrent but legacy is fairly popular

[@UnPoeteMaudit]

*cough* Tabernacle *cough* dual lands

[@NamathCB]

It's NOT old school driving the prices, it's RARITY! Unfortunately there will NEVER be another Beta Black Lotus even if they reprinted it. I can't help but wonder what the value of these cards will be when guys like me who played back then are gone and there's no more NOSTALGIA value there and WOC has skirted the reserve list by printing the white lotus a zero cost mana artifact you can sacrifice for four. To look at my weak cards from 95-96 compared to a new commander deck, my over printed cards will NEVER be worth anything and the White Lotus may be a 100-500 dollar card but NEVER a true collectors item due to NO RARITY. I so regret never buying a black lotus or a Pearl. :( I AM shopping for a black boardered Serra Angel from the first two sets though. I just love her in black! !

[@matthewstevenson1788]

i can see both sides of this debate. as an old school player that began in 94 i favor keeping the reserved list as is. i have been buying cards on and off since 1994. if the reserved list was reprinted i would never buy another magic card again of any type whether old or new. i would keep my collection for my kids and i would stop being a player and collector. however i would support wotc making a card similiar to say dual lands. different art, different name, similiar but different ability. instead of underground sea, make it another name and art. when the card comes into play it is tapped. the first upkeep in play it untaps and the owner loses 1 life. after that the card acts just like a u sea and you can tap for either blue or black with no other life loss. doing this allows me to keep my revised duals as is but allows newer players to buy into the dual lands if they so choose. wotc made a promise to me. had i known they would reprint many years later i would not have wasted years of my life chasing the cards from my youth. nor would i have spent all the money buying into my childhood. i love the game and what it meant to me as a kid. if the RL is reprinted i will be super angry. my collection is not huge, i am a father of 3 young kids that also enjoy playing magic. thats why i collect, so we can play. this game has become part of their childhood as well. thats why i will be most angry as when i leave magic due to reprints, my kids will as well. it is a great family time event for us . wotc please do your best to placate ALL the players of magic whether old or new!!! dont just go for the instant cash grab of reprinting everything for the quick bucks it brings in.

[@honigson8776]

regarding yu gi oh, all the reprints made the orignals pretty much worthless, but certain famous 1st edition cards kept their value, but most cards dropped.

[@voluntarism335]

modern cards in magic are not worthless, you don't need reserve list for cards to have value, Jace the mind sculptor is a $120 card not on reserve list, FOW a $120 card not on reserve list, scalding tarn $100 not on reserve list, Liliana of the veil $70 card not on reserve list, the reserve list is only going to kill vintage which it already basically have and even eventually legacy. I own some reserve list cards btw, 2 badlands, 1 bayou and now have bought 3 tropical islands. I don't play vintage as its a very boring format, played it on mtgo did not like it at all.

[@SedgeHermit]

This is such an insanely short-sighted debate. Once people realize that all cards are basically 20 cents and can be produced themselves with a printer and some cutting, why would they value the originals over these because they have forensic microfeatures that 99.9% of people can't tell is the original compared to scryfall-sourced prints on card stock paper? People will just start hosting their own proxy-friendly tournaments in pubs, community centers, libraries, homes, over webcam, on cockatrice, in tabletop simulator, in Xmage, or something else instead of going to their stupid LGS that makes you buy your deck that looks and acts the same for $25 but for $500 instead. And there's no incentive to allow WOTC to maintain their stranglehold on the game since the only conceivable point in doing that would be to give people money in exchange for further development of the game, but WOTC's products all suck now and are going to suck even more in the future, so even that dubious point is out the window.

[@AcidRavelEffect]

i see the reserved list in a completely different way although it's just theorizing. what if it was just actually a secret between design leads and employees. my only real sub-theory for reasoning is it was to alleviate artist apprehension. i.e. if there would or could be tension from the art world moving from originals to prints i could see that. from that being the main angle, there is one other angle. sure, they could have had plans to make billions of power without the original contractual agreement. but if they did this seemingly just by chance they would be the company creating "equality among gambling" something not many people thought of. so in the end, i think the *fans* created a delusion that the idea that it was to preserve a temporary or long-term investment because the cards are still good in vintage. vintage is not fun. old school is fun. for me this is because the math is consolidated in the past. something standard won't re-achieve even if it tries to. but the alternative would be ~ "thanks for agreeing to our sanctions. the winner of this tournament gets two sets of alpha printed in '22. one to keep and one to trade away?"

[@AcidRavelEffect]

u kno? what is followed by that? 'a set of alpha. gee, that's swell. worth $50. twice the value of Zendikar.' nobody really wants that. in fact i'm just 2/3 of the way into this video but i'm just guessing u can summarize 37 minutes with winner-doesn't-chip-in-for-keg. was why the reserved list doesn't really work. the whole time. yet u can't just go into the foundations of a company with Equality for Gamblers. it'd be too subliminal for gambling. and instead of prying towards "what is the reserved list" when the rumor of the reserved *slipped out*, the fans could've focused on keeping, not selling things like the original prizes: oversized. that's muh theory. coz that's one thing i won't be understanding. --> if u decide u are an old school player for life then, by nature, your best deck isn't an investment. unless you decide you will, one day, turn to proxies.

[@zwc76]

There's also a big counter argument to that the Old School Players are driving the market. Look at the high end comics. There's no avid reader club, but still really old #1 comics gets sold for astronomical money, just based of the value as a collectible. Also, on the same note. If new cards were printed and they were not allowed to play in the old school formats, the purpose of the cards would be pretty useless. There is currently the collectors edition of the cards that are pretty expensive, and you are not allowed to play with them still. But they are also very limited in print run, so they are hard to come by. I honestly think wizards will never reprint any of the old school cards ever, just because of the lawsuit headaches. It will never happen.

[@jimbomagicjim2292]

We are allowed to play with CE/ICE cards here in the states.

[@zwc76]

jim noonan That makes the format a little more easy to access for you guys, nice. I have to look up if its legal here too now.

[@Leroyantithesis]

Brian is correct. It would destroy the value of the cards and… it would be a thousand lawsuits. What the hell is Steven talking about?

[@LifeAfterDeath2012]

If WOTC ever reprint the reserve list, Most Tier 1 cards may not be affected (in a long run but may be little bit affected for first 12 months) however when come to those Duel Lands and Tier 2/Tier 3 Reserve list? Look what happened to the Mox Diamond... Underground Sea will never see the $1000 mark in any future, Fetches are already a great example to see most players behaviour, if I can get alternate version for cheaper and why not go for it, who will fight against their own wallet, sure investors and childhood memory in which case is a completely different topic.

[@Possu81]

WotC should have got big plans for Vintage as a format if they removed the RL and tolarate an huge risk.

[@stormybaker4135]

Menedian talks a lot and talks over Weissman continuously...i definitely would not enjoy a conversation with him! Early in the video he scolds Brian for a "monologue"....then he proceeds to do his own monologue that is waaaaay longer!

[@naomisalama430]

To be fair he was also interrupted before he had said everything he had to say. I think that this would be a better conversation as a formal debate though, with actual timed arguments and given turns.

[@NamathCB]

If I could hit like 30 times I would for this. Wouldn't want to play this guy in a match just because of his mouth. Brian can mop the Plains with me ANY DAY! Class act!

[@snakeonia7542]

The c-suite of hasbro abusing children would definitely affect magic. And that is tied to collectability.

[@simoncph]

Love them both, and they both make great points. :)

[@op1ekun81]

BULL, no one in my community give a flying fox about old school, however we hoard RL card that we play in both Legacy and EDH. By no means the old school was/is the only driver of RL.

[@mattb1100]

I think it's funny. Sometimes when I listen to magic players argue things, I just see two competitive people playing a verbal game of magic and trying to win.

[@snakeonia7542]

If they break it they will have to make their money back. Imagine wotc printing 6,000,000 mox jets. Has to affect original prices negatively.

[@grantshindo]

Replace "Mox Jet" with "Yavimaya Hollow" or any vastly unplayed Reserve List card and Menendian's argument folds.

[@mikelong2756]

I couldn't afford black border ernhams, so say I came and played with you guys...would I have to take them out of my deck and throw in other random creatures

[@benso309]

I wanna learn more from this topic..#more #continue

[@natethetoe386]

Title should be Menendian vs. Weissman and Chang, or just Menendian vs Chang.

[@nara808]

They shouldn't reprint anything except dual lands.

[@mickeybeavison1053]

Stephen is correct

[@CCDUMKY]

DINOSAURS LIKE JUZAM then RL SHOCK METEOR we get birdds that is what the left guy wants birds or eAGLES. NO TREX ONLY BONES OF BLACK LOTUS GET IT NOW :D

[@alexeigalan2538]

The sou ns is terrible, I can't understand sometimes

[@Koronas89]

first of all why should they reprint oldschool magic cards with new arts for which format? standard or modern that it goes completly out of hand and goes on a bann list. thery would ruin the game second of all an alpha black lotus bgs 10 is the highest value in magic cards its a card from wizards not from hasbro that sry is a company that has alot more then card games. a 25 year old card is for investement key not a reprint black lotus. in case if they would reprint it as masterpiece and not format related as bonus 1/1million boxes it would be cause of demand higher in value as the orginal cause of the quantity...but doesnt counts as investement or lowers the alpha card. it would be just like a lottery and it wouldnt break the false promise... a orignial wizards of teh coast alpha black lotus stays a the highest standard even with a reprint and they cant reprint 1000 of them in new art for standart or mondern caus eit would break the game at all second they dont cause about the lower formats wqith the least player base cause they arent customer from hasbro anymore... they are not involved and with the lottery reprint they can make more money with new sets even if the reprint are playable or not but invenstors dont play so they dont care. but they would by it the 100 more new black lotus time walks doesnt matter then the price will be stable on new reprint and the old cartd go up in value

[@CCDUMKY]

I got 88000€ on goldfish and if the break it i say halo effect and Sue with my layers så HAAAARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@benefitnessstudio2702]

My 400+ rev wheel of fortunes that I collect would TANK!! My 4 foil wheel of fortune would TANK. Would it bother me ? Absolutely! My 6 beta wheel of fortunes on the other hand....The 30+ foil yawgmoth's wills that I bought for 125-175 would tank.

[@CCDUMKY]

GO BRIAN ITS UR BIRTHDAY VERY WISEMAN! LISTEN plz :D i just got unlimteied back in lots for 1200 bucks and i dont want reprint i got wo now and CE for play and a mint 8.6 so WIesmann is wise. LEt kids trade for poer9 duals. I do dregde now trade for 4 bazzar. I only have ce and 8.7 that i cant play unl. So i looking for Ie, I just got in barcelona two power a jet and a ancestal . i felt so happy when they arrived in mail 1700€ for ancesteral 1500€ for JEt :D never beeen so happy. Let me know chang if u have peral or ruby emerald CE or IE looking walk twister and sapphire too. I got misprint and i got 40 duals boght them for 10€ back in 2000 ;P But listen to wiesmann the deck" :D and I would gladly play u im playing 93-darksteel so around 2004 :D great hope sthm were ROLIGT som vi säger i Sverige. Och att ni fick se göteborg å Malmö :D ha det bra best !!! HEJ = hello

[@tragicslip]

the points that "the average reserve list card is worth 1$" is meaningless unless you compare it to the average cost of non reserve list cards. people are NOT clamoring to play with the p9. the demand is more than met by online sources today. these cards are NOT healthy for the game either. people asking for the end of the reserve list just want something they don't have easy. you can, over time, get these cards. if you want to play in eternal formats run by eternal central you can use IE or CE with WotC approval. people playing legacy rarely put their deck together over night, and vintage is (obviously) no different. overnight decks don't even include standard fair at today's prices. if you want mtg for free see arena. if you want quick access to competitive paper mtg see draft. finally, the effect of reprints on cards that are not RL is not a good comparison. Compare the effect of reprints on only legacy legal cards to see how this will affect prices of reserve list reprints (berserk/ mana drain/ Karakas)

[@naomisalama430]

Heyyy that's a familiar train station :D

[@connorwills9862]

2023

[@iceghost27]

Great content and insightful points. However, you guys talk over each other way too much. It's jarring to the listener each time it happens. Lots of passion, but from an entertainment standpoint it's not enjoyable to hear all the butt-ins.

[@nickfanzo]

The reserved list is stupid, period

[@benjaminwilson8032]

19:13 but its WOTCs IP lol

[@silverwolf6866]

The minimal benefits to removing the RL compared to the enormous consequences are not even comparable. This will allow a few players to get cheaper cards for old school tournaments when most that are interested in that format either already have them or just play with proxies. On the other hand their credibility as a company would be completely shattered and they will lose many customers and future costumers as a result. Not to mention they will be inundated with countless lawsuits for clear breach of contract, that will devastate them financially. I don't see why this is still being discussed due to whiny jealous minority. If it was in the company's interest to remove the reserve list they would have done so long ago, it is clearly not. Time to move on.

[@Possu81]

I agree this 100%. I wonder how happy people would feel after handing them almost free/relatively cheap black lotus which is vintage playable you can now go to an official vintage/old school tournament with that most powerful card ever created. Isn't that what everyone hopes and just want to play now vintage forever since they can afford it? When those people see original black lotuses played, they will start to demand counterfeits from the company because they still feel their super foiled alternative art lotus isn't so wanted (even it'd be graded and printed only in 'very limited' print-run) than original black bordered is. They probably just say the same thing: 'can't afford original artwork but would prefer to play with them, evil investors have taken those cards away, game costs too much'

[@snakeonia7542]

Just cause there is 5000 of something doesn’t mean its valuable.

[@marcocirioni3022]

Nerds

[@warcraftwarcraft]

Stupid debate. Its simple. Just look back in time.