My Problem With YA Fantasy - PT. 1 (History/Context)

In this video I go over the context/history of modern Young Adult Literature. This is part 1 in a two part series on the subject. Part 2 here: • My Problem With YA Fan...
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[@DanielGreeneReviews]

I do want to point out I have lumped in Middle Grade with YA. That was intentional and will be addressed in Pt2. Before reacting too strongly one way or the other, please wait for the video where I break down my actual "Problem"

[@Yesica1993]

Thanks for clarifying. I think of them as separate things, though obviously there's going to be overlap.

[@Tinahgirl83]

Glad you said this, because they are drastically different in my mind. There are tons of middle grade books that are so good and most YA is nothing but trashy, unrealistic, unhealthy romance. There is some good stuff in there but it’s hard to find. Then they mess around and put YA on something that has enough open door stuff to be landed firmly in adult romance. Looking at ACOTAR. I loved it but it has NO business in YA. I was in high school when HP started. It was calm and quiet at first. And then Goblet of Fire came out. And the world went insane. I’d never seen anything like it. I didn’t even read them until that one came out. Lol. I needed to see what all the fuss was about.

[@dominicjohnson2364]

Totally agree with the lumping, it helps with series like Percy Jackson (and that whole universe) that have actually aged with the original audiences a bit, with each additional series.

[@musicalmark]

About the YA re-branding of WOT, that is actually how I started reading them. I got the two-part version of Eye of the World for either Christmas or my birthday. I probably would not have picked up the books on my own, not because I didn't like fantasy but because I rarely bought books for myself.

[@staceysantos4564]

I’m glad you clarified this. In my head, Middle Grade and YA are two completely different worlds with a tiny bridge in between. Or perhaps a portal.

[@saltybuns7910]

Man really loved Harry Potter so much he put on an invisibility shirt

[@sorcha2892]

Hahahahahahahahahahhahhahahahh 😂😂😂

[@GreatGreebo]

🤣🤣🤣🤣

[@angingis5922]

Jajaja

[@stephonmanny7555]

Good one.

That green screen shirt effect is killing it.

[@deanryanmartin]

It's killing it as Daniel Greene has no abs to show off, Lol

[@mralfey]

Don’t you mean Greene Screen

[@ThatGuyFromLI]

Maybe it's a transparency metaphor lol

[@reyanreyaz1306]

He's got a piece of invisibility cloak.

[@confusedwhale]

You'll probably enjoy Karl Smallwood then.

[@neilpatrick1553]

Hey where did you buy a shirt that makes you invisible.

[@TheLostArchangel666]

He's the invisible shirtman.

[@Colonel_Overkill]

Yea, that shirt was an amazing innovation. Not only did I not know it was possible its existence I never saw coming....

[@couchpotatoe91]

He stole Harry's invisibility cloak ans made it into a t-shirt obviously!

[@AikiraBeats]

Right I would like to buy one

[@nickm5647]

From the harry potter section duh

[@Yotanido]

I never understood the term "Young Adult". To me, that means something like 18-25. To be a "young adult", you still have to be an adult.

[@kayla4551]

Well there needs to be a teenager category but like there isn't one

[@danofthehour4822]

I think it's a marketing thing- more kids who actively like being considered "adult" than adults who would be willing to read books labelled "teen"

[@brewwin]

Adult is determined at different ages in many different cultures, your argument is subjective.

[@Yotanido]

@@brewwin Quite obviously, we are talking about markets in which the term "Young adult" is used. That limits us to English speaking countries, as well as countries that frequently sell books. That would be the US, Canada, Australia, UK. Maybe I missed some, but you will notice that in those countries, people are considered adults when they turn 18.

[@yonicorn1641]

@@kayla4551 in my country they market books for teens that way, but by "books for teens" i mean "books for kids 10-12 year olds, with a protagonists in their early teens showing them how cool is high school" or smth. So publishers and bookstores would put "THE NEW TEEN HIT BOOK" on the book or smth, or like "EVERY TEEN READS THIS" to the point where it's incredibly cringe

[@Magicme79]

My problem with YA fantasy is mostly because of how so many of those books do romance. It’s 2020. We need to stop telling girls that the asshole they’re crushing on will change for them and become a wonderful person.

[@metalbyakkoLP]

True, maybe it's personal experience, but I feel like Twilight had (sadly) a bigger impact. After Twilight I saw so many book stores suddenly having a "Twilight" section, which most of the time was summed up as "supposedly generic girl falls in love with pretty boy, but there is much more to him than it seems. Also them being together causes problems somehow." I also never heard about YA before Twilight not even during the Harry Potter craze, then again maybe it wasn't just that big in my home country.

[@ADHDlanguages]

@@metalbyakkoLP agreed. I'm really surprised he didn't talk about twilight.

[@barbara3911]

AMEN 🙏

[@carolinem5515]

totally agree, also a problem with fantasy books aimed at adult women too.

[@n.m.dimmick194]

Yep yep yep. It's not even so much that them having romance arcs is an issue, but so many of them depict such unhealthy, even abusive relationships. I'd also just love to see more YA books in which romance isn't a centerpiece, or the romance doesn't work out perfectly, especially since it's catering to a demographic notorious for having skewed and unhealthy views about romance and feeling utterly worthless if they aren't in a relationship. I, personally, would also ADORE seeing an aromantic protagonist who has to grapple with people falling for them when they just don't feel the same way and never will, especially since explicit aro representation is next to none and I've never seen an aro protagonist *ever*, and I think it would be really helpful to aromantic teens who are going through the same alienation and feeling broken that I was to see that hey, they're not alone, and you can still live a meaningful and fulfilling life without romance--especially in a genre so saturated with the theme that romance fixes all your woes.

[@jonathondunn3602]

I’m 40 and still read some”YA”. If it’s well written, it doesn’t matter to me if it’s marketed to high school and college kids

[@noddyjoe]

100% agree

[@gegamst7323]

I agree and I'm in my sixties. I even read books markeded for middle grade every now and then. A good story is a good story, and I love well written charaters. Last winter I read the Charlie Bone series by Jenny Nimmo and loved it.

[@Rose_Macabre]

Same. A good book is a good book.

[@annelitterarum]

Same! I am still in “ya age” and sometimes my family tell me that i will grow up one day and stop liking it but i am just like why? I like ya because there are good books, not because i am a teen... this reduction of the genre is so offensive to me especially when non-ya readers say it

[@mrana2424]

GE Gamst I never finished it!

[@stranger8447]

Without YA books, I wouldn’t even read books at all. Now I read anything fantasy from middle grade to adult. Also: Thank you for including 6-7 Rick Riordan books in the thumbnail 😂

[@keegszzz8356]

dobliviate I don’t know if he made that thumbnail background or just found a convenient image off google but I liked it too. Perhaps he’ll give PJO another chance sometime.

[@august4471]

@@keegszzz8356 I see very difficult Daniel giving it another try to READ it, but Im sure that he would give it to the possible adaptation uncle Rick is trying to give us (I hope as an animated series). He's reviewed Middle Grade-YA animated series like ATLA and The Dragon Prince soo...

[@killer92173]

Thanks to Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings, I wouldn't have gotten into reading in the first place.

[@TulilaSalome]

I think that is how it is supposed to work, you start with children's books, move on to YA and then on to adult literature. When people just read YA only forever it makes me wonder.

[@Newfiecat]

I actually love that they reskinned adult fantasy as YA. Those YA versions of The Eye of the World were what first introduced me to Wheel of Time!

[@aubreyjane6659]

I think a large problem with YA is marketing. Books that really should be marked as Adult (Sarah J. Maas I'm looking at you) are given to teens. But at the same time books are put into YA that are really more middle grade! The fact that the YA age range is considered 12-18 is insane. YA has improved greatly imo but I'm not as well read in it anymore tho.

[@cosyreadingtimes8857]

True, and not only the case with fantasy. I recently saw Dan Brown's The Davinci Code in the YA/Middle Grade section of my local bookstore and was highly disturbed

[@clayhoffmann2876]

When I was in high school a court of thorns and roses was still classified as YA and it was at my school library and was I think in 10th grade and picked it up and was like this is good and then first sex scene and I was like this isn’t YA at all and was like why is this at school.

[@davidmtgregorio]

I think the thing is, YA has become more than an age group, it has become a set of conventions and topics. People want to write and read stories that feature the YA conventions but with older characters, and that space hasn't been created yet (new adult is a different conversation because it's usually just porn). As long as that space isn't created YA will continue to be a weird middle ground.

[@chickenmonger123]

I think you’re totally wrong. When I was 16 and 17, those sex and drug concepts helped me understand the world I was walking into. And I was aware enough to realize it was actually an immature view of reality. An aberrant sort of fantasy. For me I don’t think we need to age gate info. What we need to do is provide context with the info to make sure it isn’t the only story, or the whole story, or even a good story. That was a decade ago for me.

[@xXMr_NormalXx]

Yukino Aguria XD Dan Brown released a YA edition of The Da Vinci Code, which has been met with some controversy because the intended demographic sees it as a step down from the original novel. Almost as if it has to be “dumbed down” for them

[@LordofFullmetal]

"It's not really a genre" As a YA writer, I agree with that. I've tried to look up the requirements so many times, because I'm trying to figure out how to brand myself - literally all I can find is "main protagonist must be a teenager or young adult". There are no other major genre restrictions, that I can find.

[@sierralee6908]

For gods sake avoid the angst and toxic relationships

[@Nemo_Anom]

Please don't write trash. You'd have a lot to compete against.

[@poppypollen4362]

Well, yeah, it's not a genre, it's demographics of your target audience. Japanese editors invented it way back with manga magazines, which were marketed towards young boys, or young girls, or older teens, pretty much adult guys and girls. You can buy a magazine and find all kind of stories in there, comedies, adventures, detective mysteries, horror, romance, only restricted by age and gender of their audience. So I guess you just write freely whatever you like, only considering mc demographics and possible age restrictions.

[@vullord666]

@@poppypollen4362 Yeah, I really don't know why western audiences (or maybe just Americans) don't understand that fundamental truth. It's literally in the name YOUNG ADULT. It's not that complex. It's a target audience, like a family movie or children's cartoon. The media can actually be anything or unintentionally appeal to anyone, the point is that for marketing purposes it's TARGETING X age group or generation. They will naturally exhibit similarities are studies are done to show X age group likes Y in a story, but that's just demographics (which are a different problem, but hardly a genre). It's the same thing with trying to explain how cartoons or western animation are medium and not all are targeting kids or fit into a genre. Like tell, me why I still have to explain to people that ANIME or MANGA are a freaking medium and refer to an animation or drawing style and culture's artistic representation (like Manga literally translates to Japanese comics) and not a gosh darn medium. Like how many times do I have to draw circles within circles to get this across?!

[@alchemistofsteel8099]

Does that make one piece into a YA novel?

[@Doctorfudge62]

Percy Jackson and the Rangers Apprentice books are still my shit.

[@Doctorfudge62]

@Horacio Nelson Well it is a children's book

[@surprisinglysurviving751]

@Horatio Nelson I reread it and I still love it as much as I did back in the day, I really liked the nostalgia

[@justagirl...]

@Horatio Nelson I kinda agree, but there is something so pure and wholesome about rangers apprentice. It's a comfort read for me

[@Ukulilly]

To me, Rangers Apprentice is the perfect series. It's someone everyone can enjoy- no matter what age. Also I can't read depressing books they make me depressed and so-

[@campbell9825]

I love how ranger's apprentice is technically fantasy, but most of the world and a lot of the details are based on real history. Obviously some mature parts of the time period are left out because it's for kids but the realistic world building for each faction was great. I've always been into history so I loved those books as a kid

[@myciemouse9112]

I still love Percy Jackson, Percy Jackson is what got me into reading and gave me a place to go to whenever I had problems or something was going on, I will forever love it.

[@spartnmarcen5110]

Percy Jackson is one series I always love to recommend to people who are looking for a series that isn't a straight kids book but isn't quite adult/teen yet. Hell, I recommend it to parents and adults all the time too at my store.

[@myciemouse9112]

Zachery Morrison Same, but if they’re used to adult fantasy and stuff like that with complex characters, i would tell them to expect something different or read it with low expectations so that they’ll know what they’re getting into. Lots of booktubers have read it with low expectations and ended up loving it!

[@alisonvenus4891]

Agreed. I just wish we had movies like HP

[@ngumlovered7566]

Same for me!!

[@doraaaa0613]

me too! it didn't get me into reading but instead of harry potter, percy jackson was my childhood (or, well, roughly ages 10-14 actually) i only got to reading harry potter when i was 15, later than most kids at the time (and thoroughly enjoyed it). but pjo was and still is a really cool series to me. i was the kid who sparked the pjo obsession in my class and we'd all have a great time discussing it lol

[@Joharis]

It's really annoying to see books marketed as YA when they should be NA. I love Six of Crows but those characters should not have been 17

[@timidalchemist8475]

I loved Six of Crows, but Bardugo should've done research on how teens work, they felt like adults in mind, but in a teenage body.

[@roselightz_3027]

They're all adults. No one can tell me otherwise

[@cosyreadingtimes8857]

I read the books when I was around 16 to 17 and I have to disagree. I think it's one of the cases where the environment and the things happening made the characters in their personality seem older than they actually were. They had to grow up faster. Still, someone like Wylan (who's trauma was more recent than for example Kaz' or Inej's) felt actually like a teen to me. And if you compare Kaz with for example Tommy out of the Peaky Blinders TV show (not 100% but still in a lot of ways similar) you start to notice the age difference far more

[@tpstps85]

Yep.

[@petero.489]

Ugh yeah I think Inej's and Kaz's backstory was so messed up, I will have to agree.

[@metsfanovan]

The original Percy Jackson pentalogy will always be my favorite series. That franchise could have been the next Harry Potter if the movies were better and if the book releases were more staggered so as to build up hype.

[@metsfanovan]

@Hans Hanzo The Riordan universe got a little too progressive, in my opinion. His attempts to include characters of every marginalized demographic should not have extended to religious diversity. It still doesn't make sense to me how Sam could practice Islam while her dad is literally a polytheistic god.

[@polyhymnia701]

Bob Fanatic 👏👏👏

[@polyhymnia701]

Hans Hanzo A book's politics have nothing to do with whether it's good or not.

[@kayla4551]

@@metsfanovan like idk that just doesn't make sense. I'm all here for Islamic representation but like Greek gods, like.... WHY

[@arabbarbiedoll]

@@metsfanovan I mean, her mom could've converted to islam after hooking up with a god 🤷🏻‍♀️ or she was just always muslim that just happened to hook up with a norse god 🤷🏻‍♀️🤣

[@RobertWF42]

It's funny how the covers of the books in the children's section in Barnes & Noble tend to be bright & colorful. Then you walk to the other side of the store, where readers are several years older, and books in the YA section have dark and dramatic covers, lots of black and red colors.

[@Jellybeansatdusk]

They put the children’s section on one side, tons of normal fiction including the classics and literary fiction and really grungy super adult stuff in the middle, and YA on the opposite side of the store.

[@vullord666]

Sounds like Netflix... I wonder if they'll stop ruining my childhood with dark and gritty reboots.

[@SprinkleBunn]

what about percy jackson where every cover is a bright bold colour?

[@evakuehl2038]

My dad worked for FedEx during the Harry Potter mania and he had people following him while delivering around bookstores at some point they had to have special deliveries so people wouldn’t try to rob the delivery drivers.

[@meicc398]

Wtf💀

[@jasonschmucker]

I wish I had been able to get on board the Harry Potter hype train when I was a kid. But my parents wouldn't let me read or watch it cause they thought it glorified witchcraft and satanism.

[@aishaarshadalam3412]

Well you can read it to your kids if you ever have any in the future maybe?

[@shaz5200]

My parents got me the books but they also thought it had a demonic influence over me because I'd get moody and annoyed when they interrupted my reading.

[@alexnieves]

I mean, Harry Potter led me directly into the service of Satan and taught me how to use magic.

[@Yesica1993]

I pre-screened it for my nieces at the time, for that reason. I was more troubled by the constant rule breaking / swearing / making out in the later books. The "magic" here is just make believe. The point is made & explicitly stated at one point that you can't solve your personal problems through magic. It's got great lessons on friendship, family, love, self sacrifice. This is why it's important to check things out for yourself (or pre-screen for your kids) instead of just going by what others say.

[@aishaarshadalam3412]

@@Yesica1993 Teenagers are generally like that though. Rebellious, hormones all over the place and swearing when adults aren't about. So.... It wasn't inaccurate or a bad influence really, it was just a mirror to what teenagers are actually like. They grow up eventually. It's just a phase.

[@lovelyldragon3382]

So personally- I am 19 and I am female. Logically, a lot of what I have read has been YA because I mean, when I was in high school our library was filled with it. I started branching out into adult books in high school as well and that's when I noticed the differences. When I was just 15 I couldn't explain this well but my reaction to picking up a lot of adult fantasy was summed up with, "This is a great but like...where are all the women?". I don't want this comment to be pegged as hate. There are plenty of books I love that do not have a lot of female characters or really well written ones. To be completely real, I relate to female characters easier- there are just a lot of struggles that as a woman I relate to more then what a man goes through. I don't hold it against a guy at all if he relates to a man easier, there is nothing wrong with that. But I think their needs to be a a bigger discussion on how (from my perspective at least) a lot of adult fantasy (that is targeted towards men) is taken more seriously overall as a narrative then what's targeted towards women. Like, I think it speaks volumes that New Adult spawned, just to essentially lump in even more female driven narratives so they didn't have to market it as Adult. Not a big fan of this book series but The Court of Thorns and Roses Series is a excellent example of this.

[@lorinpaterson2462]

LovelyLDragon I agree with you. So much adult fantasy is geared towards older men, and I think the popularity of YA fantasy with female characters have shown publishers that women want fantasy too!

[@lovelyldragon3382]

Lorin Paterson I know! Women want fantasy! Lol. I think we are just in this weird stage where publishers have realized this but they don’t how to market or are just scared. I think they just need to go for it like damn YA is so lucrative. Trust me TOR fantasy -the women will show you they want some fantasy with their wallet lol

[@Annabeth123456]

👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻

[@berserker8884]

Understandable. Fortunately we are getting much more female atention too, more and more. Sanderson for one has characters like Shallan, Jasnah, Vin, etc. all awesome and cwntral characters, especially Vin. Jojo Part 6 Stone Ocean is mainly women cast and the main protagonist Jolyene is fuvking amazinggg, The Poppy War, etc. But the examples are still too rare and far inbetween. We will get more though, Im sure.

[@kelseyleblanc9455]

LovelyLDragon I think the problem with the specific example of ACOTAR is that that particular series is more romance than fantasy. At least from what I remember of it. Yes there was some interesting fantasy elements and I enjoyed the world, but a large emphasis was put on the romance. And I think a lot of adult fantasy readers want their books to be mainly fantasy with a dash of romance mixed in. Whereas fantasy in YA is dominated by romance heavy stories. I think as a story ACOTAR fits in way better to YA and it wouldn’t have been as marketable in the adult section even if it’s themes lean toward an older age.

[@RealMexFoodShouldntGiveUDrrhea]

Me: Ooh cool. This looks like a promising fantasy Ya novel. [cheesy and toxic romance] Ight imma head out

[@JTF2402]

... paper Princess....

[@sama._.4220]

..shatter me series..

[@charlottejruthauthor]

...a court of thorns and roses...

[@benjaminwatt2469]

I love your youtube name. My wife is Mexican and real Mexican food is rich and complex, I love it

[@skiafraylalnasache]

@@charlottejruthauthor at least a court of thorns and roses has a good rest of the series. Either way, I still find it a good book.

[@ebyfay]

Man, Harry Potter release days where somethin else, never have I seen that many ppl desperate for a book. Specially for the final book, stores everywhere around me opened early so people could go to the bookstores, there would be police at the line up spot and at cash register. People where terrified of the book stores selling out before they got a copy. I'll never forget walking through a dark mall at 6 something in the morning, surrounded by a huuuge group of ppl of all ages wearing wizard robes, all beyond excited. All for one single book.

[@garmadonthesensei59]

I’m gonna cry reading this. Man I wish I was old enough to experience those magical times 😭

[@jeffreybeaumont9627]

to be brutally honest, every ya book i know falls into one of three categories: -the harry potter wagon, with percy jackson, eragon, his dark materials -tho this came a lil before - , artemis fowl, lemomy snicket, miss peregrine's etc -the twilight wagon, with mortal instruments, vampire academy, beautiful creatures, fallen, hush hush, house of night, shiver etc -and of course the hunger games wagon, with divergent, maze runner, uglies, legend, delirium, matched, selection etc ☕☕☕ i mean literally....fight me for all i care

[@irisbear9421]

TBH.... You're not wrong here. 🙃

[@justagirl...]

I agree with your second 2 categories, but I don't really understand your first one.

[@tiwao2911]

What about John Green, The hate u give, the book thief, perks of being a wallflower, and the whole Lara Jean series, that Georgia Nicholson series, etc?

[@candidlyopinionated19]

just a girl Fun action and adventure

[@cybersketcher1130]

Alcatraz and Skyward kinda stands out in that regard

[@lenalovesrats]

I read both YA and adult fantasy and I find that both have their pros and cons. As an adult I find myself generally enjoying adult fantasy more, but there are gems within YA that outshine even most adult fantasy(imo).

[@joecourtney8552]

Lena Zeller agree. YA yields much lot eye rolls and frustration but they also get pretty creative because Ya is so saturated. Sometimes adult can be too slow but usually is worth it.

[@Joe-mz6ez]

Can you recommend any good YA? I use to read them... But growing up I became very desilusioned with. I have come to hate Sara J mass and Cassandra Clare (the last one very much). So any good book?

[@joecourtney8552]

Joe Half a King is great. Silo series could be. Lunar chronicles. Darker shade of magic.,

[@sexydoorframes]

@@joecourtney8552 Darker Shade Of Magic is adult. She uses Victoria Schwab when writing ya/middle grade. V.E Schwab for adult :)

[@alfreddozier832]

Joe the arc of a scythe series

[@tookerp]

I think a lot of the transition YA went through (female protag, more mature themes) might have come from Twilight’s boom.

[@ZielonaPastela]

People tend to give Twilight a lot of sh*t, but one cannot deny its influence.

[@skullfullofbooks7398]

I think Harry Potter proved YA could sell, and Twilight proved the market wanted female protagonists and more mature themes. A lot of times people are writing things but publishers hate to be the one taking a gamble. Once someone takes that gamble and wins, they latch onto it.

[@AliviaHaven]

Kim E Harry Potter isn’t even YA tho it’s middle grade

[@tookerp]

Alivia Haven I think it grows into YA personally. Around book 3 or 4.

[@tookerp]

@@richa4847 sure, but something being good doesn’t influence trends. It’s what’s big and what people are exposed too.

[@spokeforhours]

As the YA genre becomes more A than ever to meet the desires of its grown readers, something odd is happening, where the themes, dialogues, and personalities no longer match the 12-18 age gap. You showed Six of Crows on the background, which clearly only kept the ages of the characters bellow 20 for the book to be marketed as YA, when actually all of them read as above 20 (ok, Wylan could be 18). Fans make some mental gymnastics to explain they behave maturely because of the world they grow up, but in reality, it just reads more mature than YA was meant to. Similar issue with A Court of Thorns and Roses, where explicit sex is included in every book of the series, yet, given the young female lead and focus on romance over usual fantasy themes (magic system, world-building, etc), it was basically forced to be marketed as YA, because there is no in-between genre or better, age group. I personally believe that a better rating system should be implemented, there were short-lived efforts to star a New Adult rating in traditional publishing, which did not ultimately work, I believe bc New Adult is often confused with erotica. So perhaps a similar system to movie ratings? However, YA has come to mean more than the age-group it targets, we know that a YA fantasy, compared to adult fantasy, won't just be more "clean", it will also be likely more focused on character over plot, a smaller cast of characters, focus on friendships, romance, first experiences, etc. So I guess the challenge remains on how to still direct the audience to the books they wish to read if the YA label isn't attached to it.

[@Sky-bu1jj]

To your last sentence, even before reading anything about the book, I found that you can almost always tell from the covers lol. It shouldn't be so easy, but literally any cover that has fancy, swirling designs or a young model posing for the cover or the onscreen adaption, is YA. YA books can have simple covers, but adult books are never as fancy as books written for audiences who want to buy pretty books (young adults, mostly).

[@SidPil]

@@Sky-bu1jj soo... Judge a book by it's cover?

[@SidPil]

I think it's more that adults almost always underestimate the maturity of teens

[@Sky-bu1jj]

@@SidPil not all popular sayings are correct. Definitely judge a book by its cover. One that is excessively fancy and catches your eye first is either high fantasy, a good enough book to have a collector's edition published, or the newest YA novel. More than half the time it's the latter.

[@tictacterminator]

it was never 12-18 I read the first harry potter book when I was 7. can you imagine an 18 year old man reading Warrior Cats? c'mon

[@kadycrea]

Omg 😂 people driving around shouting HP spoilers out loud haha that makes me laugh

[@wham1984]

I wish I could’ve witnessed that… except unwound be running any from them to protect my ears🙉🙉🙉

[@maroonstranger8277]

@@wham1984 no we would literally come to school crying and be emo all week because we got spoiled in the line at the book premiere 😂 it was a wild time, pretty silly looking back, and not everyone was that diehard, but it was like the whole world to those of us who cared 😄 hence why u see so many millenials with like deathly hallows tattoos lmao

[@charlesstanford1310]

I hiked to the top of a tall mountain in 2007 and someone had written a fake Book 7 spoiler on the shelter at the summit.

[@toristeveson]

For every book after The Sorcerers Stone my mom had to go out at midnight and get three copies, and the next day my sister my dad and I would lock our doors until we were done. My dad was such a nerd that when the first movie came out he convinced a drug rep (he was a doctor) to buy out a theater so we could see it a few hours before it came out. One of my best childhood memories.

[@Xapuyi]

YA books originally got me into reading when I was younger and I think sometimes YA is put down simply for being targeted towards younger people. Things that teenagers and especially teenage girls like are being seen as lesser to adults interests which in my opinion is not good. We all need and are interested in different things at different times in our lives.

[@pavelowjohn9167]

From what (admittedly limited) criticism I've seen, YA isn't put down for targeting younger people, per se, it's the claim that it out-right panders to teen-agers, which I can sort of see, in a way. I think the romance genre does this (very knowingly, in fact) for women and I would even claim that the old action-adventure genre did this for men (if I ever want some good second-hand embarrassment, I just browse the men's adventure section at the local used book store. Mack Bolan, we hardly knew ya...) This usually isn't a problem, but it can lead, IMO, to some folks getting stuck in that genre and never maturing/advancing (I know a not-insignificant number of people in their late-20s/early 30s who still gush about how much they love Harry Potter, to the point where you know you're wasting your time trying to talk about any other series or author. You feel kind of bad for them, honestly).

[@ZielonaPastela]

Society seems to hate teenage girls -- the music they listen to, the tv shows targeted at them, the clothes they wear, the language they use. Heck, even the colours they like. It's very sad, really. Even some teenage girls hate other teenage girls, because their interests are seen as immature or downright stupid. Definitely looked down upon. Why, though?

[@henryc6632]

I exist in a superposition of thinking YA has no merit yet also reading it constantly

[@passwordyeah729]

amen

[@sarahp6512]

My issue is that things that were labeled as YA that had more mature themes were still marketed towards young teens/preteens. When I was in grade 5/6 I read books that had really mature themes that I wasn't ready for, but I didn't know going in because they were in my middle school library. It's not a problem that YA is growing up, but grown up YA should be marketed to high school and college students, not preteens.

[@bayza7955]

Sorry for awaking a dead post but I disagree. That won’t fix the issue because super gore-filled and depressing books are marketed towards children. I grew up on Warriors and the rest of Erin Hunter’s work when I was in elementary and reading that as an adult now, holy crap is that stuff dark! Very sure the reading level is still marked as 6th grade. I also read Watership Down in middle school but I already knew what I was getting into. Maybe it’s a YA or something but the early movie is marketed and rated for children even though I’m sure some scenes will be scarring for them. The biggest issue for lower level schools, bookstores, and second hand stores is not properly labeling or warning about more intense topics. I’m not sure if they just look it up and slap the label on but my mom would have been pissed knowing I picked up an erotic dragon fantasy novel from a goodwill that was labeled for children (I didn’t check the back, I was just happy to see a dragon book).

[@Thenoobestgirl]

Agreed. There should be a distinction between YA and Preteens and the line is drawn way too loose atm.

[@MicukoFelton]

@@Thenoobestgirl Well, it's literally called Young ADULT, if pre-teens are reading it it's their own fault when they encounter something too mature.

[@Notfallkaramell]

@@MicukoFelton The problem is, YA is a MARKETING genre, aimed at a very big age gap, preteens included in the marketing age gap. The gap is too big! There isn't a category for preteens, really. There is only YA, were preteens are INCLUDED.

[@pinklemoade4779]

Bayza Warrior Cats isn’t really dark though, it’s edgy but not dark.

[@benjaminwatt2469]

I'm an English teacher so i'm Hyped. YA is doing exactly what it should be doing. it is introducing young people to books. Also a lot of author's are making a living so win-win.

[@nvwest]

I noticed young ya is actually more about male protagonist and older ya is more with female protagonists. In Harry Potter, The Ranger’s Apprentice and Percy Jackson, the main character is 11/12 years old in the first book. Then in ya for girls the protagonist is 16/17 years old (Hunger Games, Twilight, Lunar Chronicles, TFiOS etc.) Is it because girls want to read about a protagonist older than themselves and boys about a protagonist the same age as themselves? Or is it because of other reasons? It’s interesting Edit: I just noticed female protagonists tend to be older than the popular male ones. Of course any gender can enjoy any book they want.

[@vitoriaassuncao7716]

But the hunger games is not FOR girls. Its for everybody. Just because a book have a female protagonist doesn't mean it's only target towards girls.

[@lv834]

@Bai Bae Thank you for pointing that out! This is exactly what annoys me about adult fantasy books. You're hard-pressed to find fleshed-out female characters because apparently having only (white) male protagonists is more appealing and relatable to the whole readership.

[@cosyreadingtimes8857]

This is also were target groups get mixed up. Percy Jackson I would categorize under Middle Grade, same as the first two Harry Potter books (though HP is a series that just overlaps due to the aging of the characters). And I wouldn't say that 16 to 17 year old protagonists are older than the peer group of ya. But if you're interested in recommendations for ya books with male protagonists, the booktuber Eliot Brooks has a pretty good video about that.

[@bananahat3350]

I think they’re from different eras though. Harry Potter, Percy Jackson, and Eragon were from the first era of YA where it was more focused on kids going on adventures. Later YA’s were inspired by Twilight and had romance added in, and the Hunger Games which started the dystopia, overthrow the government trend.

[@vitoriaassuncao7716]

@@bananahat3350 the hunger games were and still are incredible though

[@powerplace21]

You really can't have a discussion about how the YA target demographic transcended into the more 'older teen' audience we're accustomed to seeing without mentioning Stephenie Meyer's Twilight.

[@Joe-mz6ez]

Kill it with FIRE!!!!!

[@alisonvenus4891]

Twilight? Never heard of it.

[@vitoriaassuncao7716]

To be honest, I think that you can classify a book as good or bad. And that's it. I've read YA books that are so much better than adults ones. That have better plots, characters and even writing. So I dont get whats this whole thing about YA. There are good and bad books. Just like with every genre/ age category

[@notme716]

Vitoria Assunção whats an example?

[@vitoriaassuncao7716]

The Raven Boys, the Hunger Games and even Harry Potter for instance

[@eagann92]

Generally, I find them to be too one-dimensional and lacking in subtlety. But then again, plenty of adult novels have these issues as well.

[@shiaseedsalad2726]

I agree

[@Scarshadow666]

This pretty much somewhat true for all media. Books are art, and art is subjective so it'll always depend on perspective on what some form of media is good or bad or in between.

[@missacreates8989]

At my library the Harry Potter series and all of Rick riordans mythical series are in the children’s (it’s sort of a middle school kids age) section and YA is back in a far corner with things like divergent, hunger games and twilight. So I never classified Harry Potter or riordan books as YA. it’s interesting to me to see how Harry Potter actually started this genre.

[@haritaodedra5529]

Leigh bardugo's ninth house was a phenomenal book, shadow and bone didnt cut the mark for me and I totally loved six of crows, but I do agree with people who are saying that the characters shouldn't have been 17.

[@maddenmckenzy3011]

How mature do you think someone needs to be to read SOC vs Ninth House? Because I loved SOC and want to read Ninth House but don’t know if I should yet lol

[@damijinadu4184]

Ninth house isn’t ya though, it’s very much adult

[@damijinadu4184]

@@maddenmckenzy3011 Ninth house is 18+ there are a lot of trigger warnings

[@haritaodedra5529]

@Madden Mckenzy I read it when I was 17 and hadn't even read SOC, at that point. It lies in the adult genre and not typical "ya" so proceed with that in mind

[@haritaodedra5529]

@Rakiya Jinadu yep its very much adult

[@efedevrimozen7590]

I read Percy Jackson when I'm ten. Those times it really warmed me up to the fantasy genre moreover it was really fun and exiciting story to read. I don't know If I read now I can feel the same things for the PJ but for beginners this kind of books makes really good beginning for the new fantasy readers.

[@grendelentertainment9642]

Daniel is just a floating head and hands. Change my mind.

[@irisbear9421]

He looks like the Dad from Onward

[@Joe-mz6ez]

Yep, he it's pretty much the wizard of OZ

[@alexnieves]

YA is perfect for a certain type of audience, it's just not for me.

[@marcusfraser2790]

Agreed. No good or bad. It's just preference and what we can relate to the most

[@nvwest]

Used to be for me. Grew out of it, but would reread some of my favourites from time to tome though

[@RileyEffective]

For me it is more a sort of 'reading mood'. Sometimes I just don't want to read heavy or complex books. In those cases I tend to gravitate towards YA.

[@alexnieves]

@@nvwest For sure, I grew up reading Harry Potter. I was 8 when Sorcerers Stone came out and I was in those lines of people for every new release and pretty much the same for Eragon. I loved those books as a kid and teenager but wouldn't go out of my way to read anything geared toward a teenage or young "adult" audience at this point in my life. 29 years old and these kinds of books don't do it for me anymore.

[@alexnieves]

@@RileyEffective Can't fault you there at all, everybody has their own reading habits and I'm sure that's a way to relax and read without having something too heavy or dark as a lot of adult fantasy.

[@juliettebraden3328]

I remember when "The Son Of Neptune" by Rick Riordon came out and it was everywhere in school! I thought it was so cool, but I was also sad cause I had to wait till Christmas to read it haha

[@morgboat744]

i remember waiting a year for Blood Of Olympus and it KILLED me haha

[@notjohnbruno1522]

I remember back when I was reading the heroes of olympus books, my mom bought me The Son of Neptune but would only let me read it on the condition that I finished reading my summer reading assignments, which I was slouching on. I finished both books I needed to read in a week just so I could get to TSoN, which I then also read in less than three days. I was *hungry*

[@Invert_Scrub]

Yo, I read Redwall when I got detention once. That shit was dope.

[@purplejelly1527]

Redwall is one of my favorite book series.

[@mikeymullins5305]

I read a couple of the books when I was a kid but never understood it. Were they animals? Were they people? What was it? Was there a chronology? It was a bit too much for twelve year old me.

[@Invert_Scrub]

@@mikeymullins5305 They're animals with swords, bruh.

[@flaminghotcheetos2706]

my 5th grade teacher read it to me

[@Descro382]

Finally someone mentioned Redwall lmao

[@DenDave_]

''part 1'' Oh dear time to buckle up, this is gonna be interesting.

[@deanryanmartin]

Brace yourself, Daniel Greene inserts Brandon Sanderson's Skyward & Starsight.

[@naamahnotorious955]

I was in secundary school when Harry Potter began, but I read it in university I think. I loved it, tho it was geared at a younger age, but at that time, I loved epic fantasy more. But it was something this nerd could read and discuss with even the people in my dorm who didn't like to read. We all read Harry Potter, heck we all had nicknames in our messenger referring to Harry Potter. I do like some of the newer YA books now, and I'm way to old to be the intended age group. Really enjoyed the Leigh Bardugo books I read, and many others. I don't care about the label, I care about the story.

[@mojopie]

I'm around the same age as you, so the explosion of YA is what got me into reading (Harry Potter, Twilight, The Hunger Games) so I really respect the genre and I think it creates a safe space for teens to get into reading. BUT I also hate that it really is just a marketing technique that places restrictions on a lot of books that are harmful to the story (like you argued with Scythe) and i find it really frustrating a lot of the time, because so many things are marketed wrongly as YA or adult and chunks of audiences miss out on it, or people refuse to picks things up because its YA. Personally, it's a genre/section of the book shop that my tates don't really align with anymore, but it's still one I'll always respect

[@AikiraBeats]

Once I got into twilight I also got into vampire academy when that was a thing

[@mojopie]

@@AikiraBeats yep! Twilight ignited a Vampire loving phase, for me it was House of Night and Vampire Diaries 😂 I still love vampire stories

[@jlammetje]

I remember when HP 5 came out, I think I was 15 or 16. I went to the bookstore straight out of school to pick up my pre-order. I had never ordered anything before. I read all afternoon and after dinner, and halfway into the night, until I finished it. Completely failed my exam in school the next day due to not having studied and barely had any sleep 😂

[@dinimania3931]

😂😂

[@Vyansya]

that sounds like a good memory :)

[@nxsardella]

There are people here who don’t remember Borders? Now I feel old.

[@FlyingFocs]

I remember borders. I miss it.

[@catejones3843]

Who?

[@Amanda-pi2nr]

I saved up my paychecks when I was working in high school to got o Borders when I knew they were having sales on books that I would like. My sister and I made a day of it. We would both take home a haul and then try to find room on a bookshelf somewhere. Usually they ended up piled on the floor around the bed. Good times.

[@RakiOsrez]

I miss Borders so much. I liked it way more than B&N, mostly because they were cheaper, lol.

[@lactarius7781]

I really like YA fantasy/sci-fi, as long as it isn't dumbed down. In my opinion, YA fiction is much more willing to approach the emotional sides of life directly than a lot of other fiction is, which though not always done amazingly, I appreciate.

[@tomahawkchop7669]

If GRRM ever finishes The Winds of Winter it might create a line or two.

[@elrilmoonweaver4723]

Hope not, with the current sitiation.

[@gagesmith7895]

I was thinking the same thing. He’s the only one who can come close

[@louyou6614]

Lol games of thrones will have a new standard cover for the whole série that look quite ya

[@fuyushitarisou1]

I am worried were you are going with this in part two, because you left out the gender aspect and the fact that basically 80% of readers in this genre are females over the age of 20. That basically there was a "second rate" fantasy genre created for the female millenial generation, because there were not enough books or a market in the regular fantasy shelf for woman. That's why it's such a problem if you discredit YA, because it's a female genre and everything with mostly females is second rate and not worth it. It's a very very hot topic to talk about and address

[@MRuby-qb9bd]

It's a frustrating feature--because they also pressure authors (esp. female authors) to dumb down writing or inappropriately age-down female protagonists to fit into the YA genre, and they don't get marketed as adult, especially in the fantasy genre. So female readers see adult fantasy and think "oh that's for guys" and they never move past YA. But then it also creates this situation where young male readers look at the YA market and sort of get the impression that reading in general is a "girl thing" because nothing is really aimed at them in their age group. And so they just stop reading altogether.

[@kgoblin5084]

"That basically there was a "second rate" fantasy genre created for the female millenial generation, **because there were not enough books or a market in the regular fantasy shelf for woman.**" The really sad part is I KNOW that 2nd bit is simply not true, there in fact was a healthy supply of female authors, writing female protagonists & characters, with appeal to female readers, before the YA boom. Going back well into the early 90s & earlier. The implication that Tanya Huff, Melanie Rawn, Patricia McKillip, Tanith Lee, Mercedes Lackey, Anne McCaffery, CS Friedman, Elizabeth Bear, CH Cherryh, Ursula Le Guin, Andre Norton and I'm sure many many others that I can't recall off the top of my head were writing for a primarily male audience is just bogus. There were probably other factors why a lot of women were not into fantasy (I'm betting heavily on cultural pressure & poor/absent marketing), but the books not existing was NOT an issue.

[@fuyushitarisou1]

@@kgoblin5084 I know these authors, but I have never seen those books on shelves, although I know Le Guin and Elizabeth Bear. There is also Jaqueline Carey and Marion Zimmer Bradley. However I think all of them a still a small minority in the great not sea of fantasy releases and they covered a "niche". They were never equal contestants in the Sci-fi/fantasy genre. But to proof that I think you would need to scientifically research it. I don't know if anyone ever did that.

[@AliviaHaven]

m. William buda the fact that I’ve been reading my ENTIRE life, even before YA was a thing, and I’ve never heard of these authors proves the OP’s point. Adult fantasy was not and is not marketed towards women. That’s why YA fantasy has a LARGE adult female readership

[@fuyushitarisou1]

@@AliviaHaven it would be logically though. Fantasy books are empowering. They serve as role models, giving the idea of being able to overcome horrible scenarios against all odds. Most of them are set as an hero epos, going on an adventure, discover new places, build up your strength etc. No one wanted woman to think like that. Woman were not ment to identify with such role models. I don't even think my parents and grandparents generation even thought that this was possible for them too. So it would make sense that it was the millenials who experienced Hermione as a first Heroine, together with Katniss Everdeen and even the twilight girl to realize that we could be heroes in such stories. I mean it was a slow development over 20 years, from the weak heroine who needed to be saved by a good looking supernatural being to a heroine who kicks ass and saves herself.

[@Calebgoblin]

This man wields the green screen maliciously like a weapon and I love him for it

[@liam1558]

Daniel: Harry f**king ad plays: Joe Biden

[@littlegravitas9898]

*Shows the front cover of Redwall* *Nostaliga intensifies*

[@revpembroke3082]

Eulaliaaaaaaaaa!

[@littlegravitas9898]

@@revpembroke3082 gah, FINE! I WILL BUY THEM ALL AGAIN! I hope you are happy with yourself.

[@karlwilker155]

@@littlegravitas9898 Redwall! Redwall! Strike for Redwall!

[@karlwilker155]

Logalogalogaloooggg! Sorry I'm in a mood right now. Ignore my quoting.

[@ADADEL1]

A rope with a knot at the end....best weapon in fantasy ;).

[@CEWThree]

Man, I used to love Borders! They had a free membership program, and every week or so they would send out coupons for like 25% off books. I don't think in almost a decade I ever paid full price for a book at Borders-- and now I see why they shut down.

[@danlafferty1222]

I think it’s interesting how the concept of YA altered the level of sophistication in vocabulary and writing style in books for young readers. I grew up in the ‘80s, and back then there were kids’ novels, and there were adult novels, and nothing to bridge the two. That’s what led to me reading A Wrinkle in Time at age 8 and Stephen King’s IT at age 13. But today, you go back and read something like A Wrinkle in Time, or Island of the Blue Dolphins or Hatchet, and you realize how sophisticated the writing was. They were written for kids, but they were written with the assumption that kids were very, very intelligent. This then set a high bar, which kids had to strive to reach. It pushed their bounds. I don’t see much in the YA category today that does that. It’s hard to say, though, if that’s because it’s more about making money than putting out good literature, or if writers of books for younger audiences simply aren’t as talented anymore, or if there is an assumed need to set a low bar for kids today, or whether publishing houses are just so focused on money that they want the packaging more than the content. Or, in all likelihood, if it’s a combination of all those factors.

[@Katastra_]

Same, I remember reading the Hobbit and LotR in elementary and middle school for the 'read x number of pages a week' exercise. Granted I also devoured every HP book when they came out, but I was there perfect she to grow up with Harry, so 🤷‍♀️

[@FarFlungDreams]

Exactly. :)

[@bananahat3350]

I think it’s because in modern YA, it’s often written so that the character’s voice and the plot and characters themselves are more important than complexity of the prose. I don’t think Percy Jackson would be the same without the additional little quips Riordan adds in. I think that’s also why a lot of YA is written in present tense first person. That way you get to hear the character’s thoughts and jokes as the events happen, like you’re listening to them think.

[@danlafferty1222]

Katie Schaefer Same here. I first read The Hobbit in the 4th grade and LotR in middle school, and I wasn’t alone. Many kids were reading those books at that time. And The Hobbit was truly supposed to be a kids’ book. It certainly isn’t written on the level of LotR, but it’s far above the level of anything written in the YA category today.

[@bbthrashcan4857]

This is exactly why I could never get into YA. I tried several times but no.

[@Sky_h]

I got into reading when I was in middle grade because of YA, at that time I hated all the novels we read in literature class. Now I read adult, YA, middle grade and whatever else there is.

[@isobelduncan]

I've noticed some YA authors tend to be quite rude when it comes to responding to bad reviews, even to the extend of cyberbullying.

[@maddenmckenzy3011]

I’ve noticed most ya authors get extremely defensive when there’s a bad review even tho it’s literally just someone’s opinion and they didn’t even say anything bad about their book😅

[@jamarcussimmons3044]

Cyberbullying 🙄🙄🙄

[@sofiaamm]

i think your research focused a lot more on mainstream YA, which is not necessarily bad. but the state of YA today, like the popular releases everyone is talking about, deserve a bit more of a nuanced conversation. YA is focusing a lot more on diversity, and non medieval europe fantasy settings, which i think is very important to discuss too.

[@dudelamak]

I agree. 7 realms is very nuanced and have character diversity in it. Can you name the novels that you are thinking about when you mentioned diversity and none European medieval setting?

[@sofiaamm]

Bleach Soul sure! a few that come to mind are we hunt the flame, gilded wolves, criers war, the merciful crow, kingdom of souls, wicked fox, and there are a lot more!

[@Anna_lt]

@@sofiaamm children of blood and bone too!

[@snowyyzoe]

I would agree! It's evolving in a very cool direction--it's gone from children's fantasy to wattpad like romances to deeper books with diverse characters and settings. I actually happen to love modern YA for that reason.

[@GhostEmblem]

Thats fair but also understandable that research into the history of YA didnt include as much about the more recent stuff, if it can even be called that, I'd say its more like an emerging trend that hasnt fully emerged yet.

[@lv834]

The thing I love most about YA is the abundance of female characters. The only reason why I have trouble getting into "normal" fantasy books aimed towards adults is that most heroes are male, all their sidekicks are male and the few female characters are badly written and flat. To me, it's honestly off-putting to read books that centre solely around just men. Don't get me wrong, I can still enjoy those books. Identifying with a character is not limited to their gender after all. But it saddens me to see that authors still have trouble creating female characters with substance that aren't just pawns. For example, I loved the gentleman bastards, but come on! Why not have at least one female garrista? Why can't Locke be friends with a female (that's present in the story and not just mentioned once in a while)? The same with Stormlight Archives books: can I please have a strong female character that isn't a pawn or just a love interest? (Edit: I know Shallan and Jasnah eventually evolve to great characters with actual importance to the overall story line. But in my opinion especially the beginning of the stormlight archives series was very much dominated by men. I just used this book series as an example because it's so well known.) More often then not I find myself reading adult fantasy (especially epic fantasy) and want to confront authors with questions like: How about two female characters that actively contribute to a story? Or, if an author is extremely daring, how about a 1/3 ratio of women to men? You said YA is a marketing tool. So why are the protagonists often female? Because a lot of girls like reading (too). I simply don't get why the industry hasn't picked up on the fact that women might also enjoy fantasy and would love to see themselves as the heroes of the story. I won't dismiss the faults of Sarah J Maas books, but creating nuanced female protagonists that er badass but still very much feminine and get the freedoms of modern women within an interesting fantasy setting is a smart move. She showed that creating female characters in such a setting (even a court-based medieval-inspired setting) without squashing the rights of women (like real history did) is very much possible. Of course, girls and women will be drawn to that. I honestly can't figure out why epic fantasy chooses to keep the role of their women small. It's either damsel in distress, whore, badass bitch (who has forsaken all things feminine) or mother.

[@cosyreadingtimes8857]

Very true. Also agree with your SJM opinion. Tho there is a lot of bad about her books (in my op especially romance and diversity in character) in that point she did something right.

[@lovelyldragon3382]

justandforver me This comment needs all the likes! Seriously! Your spot on.

[@huynhpham4502]

justandforver me agreed 100% 🙌

[@john_frankford7450]

I know Daniel has promoted it many times but try wheel of time. I’d guess at least 50% of the books are through the perspective of women and they are actually good characters not just basic sideshows. I agree with you though and I would also like to see more female centered epics.

[@JashanaC]

Feel very similarly to you! I really love Michael J Sullivan’s Legends of the First Empire series because of how complex and nuanced the female characters are. 🙌

[@madsjcon1836]

Sometimes I feel like YA needs to be split into two genres Teenage Fantasy, or teenage horror ect, and then have Teenage romance. lots of the hate towards YA is valid, it is just Teenage Romance with fantasy elements, and most of the time it’s done badly with horrendous male characters who growl every three seconds, but that’s a personal gripe. Honestly I can’t remember a YA Fantasy where the central conflict was actually a protagonist vs antagonist situation, the romance is instead always in the foreground and that’s what gives YA a bad name. Also it’s generally a lot softer that adult fantasy. I’ve read YA series that are seven books long with ten POV characters, three of them are Mary-Sues, and they end the last book with a 200 pages battle sequence where EVERYONE lives! And has a boyfriend! I don’t hate YA I just think it has lower standards for fantasy because it appeals to a younger audience I guess? But there are still some amazing gems in YA Fantasy, I’m looking at you Six of Crows.

[@Katastra_]

The "problem"with Teen Romance novels is that despite the authors' actual ages they read like they were written by a teen girl trying to satisfy the fantasy of every other teen girl. It should be it's own ganre, but then it wouldn't sell as well, so that isn't going to happen.

[@lv834]

are you hinting at the throne of glass series?

[@Heres_To_Music]

Lol true in part. But let me introduce you to Rick Riordan the author who killed off plenty of characters in his last three Percy Jackson books (I mean the first series, but ToA also has character deaths).

[@madsjcon1836]

justandforver me yeah I was very angry with the ending of that particular series

[@cosyreadingtimes8857]

Wow, so true. Happily there are some ways I found to avoid those YA romances with fantasy elements (no problem with them, just not my taste). If there is somewhere in the synopsis a 'super hot/dangerous but attractive' person (not necessarily male) mentioned I mostly avoid it. Gladly gems like Six of Crows or Strange the Dreamer are discoverable judt by reading deeper into their synopsis 😊

[@kaitlinmarley1812]

I picked up Mistborn because it was in the YA section which is where I primarily got my books from in high school and it introduced me to the adult fantasy genre, so I'm really glad they rebranded it like that :)

[@TheBookLeo]

YA is still booming in the USA, but not so much in other countries. In the UK and especially in The Netherlands (where i'm from) the 'genre' is plummeting in sales and in NL the books are even being marketed towards adults in hopes to get more sales out of them.

[@milchreis9554]

Total opposite in Germany 2 years on from your comment. We don't just have YA shelves we have NA sections in most bookstores.

[@sumbunny2009]

@@milchreis9554 what does na mean?

[@milchreis9554]

@@sumbunny2009 New Adult

[@cfitz9969]

This is an interesting topic of conversation, because I don't understand why somebody could hate the YA genre. I get that it doesn't appeal to everyone personally, but young people have to start reading somewhere, no? I don't really read YA books anymore (unless I guess Mistborn counts), but if it weren't for Ranger's apprentice and The Lightning Thief, I wouldn't have nearly the passion for reading that I do now. Very interested to see your second video and whether your problems are personal or if there is some objective fault that I'm missing. Great video as always :)

[@AikiraBeats]

That is very true cause I just got back into reading in 2018 and most of it was YA because I had to figure out what exactly I wanted to read in order to figure out my genres

[@skullfullofbooks7398]

Personally I don't hate the "genre." I hate the fellow adults who ceaselessly push YA books onto me like I'm going to love them automatically, but when I state that I don't read YA books in general I get labeled problematic. I shouldn't need to justify why I don't read YA novels. I don't ask others to justify to me why they don't read any particular genre or book topic. If I comment on my dislike for YA, someone will undoubtedly lecture me about how YA books are for everyone and tell me how much older than me they are and that they're still reading YA series to try to shame me. And that's fine, read what you want to read in life, but if I did the same thing about classic books I'd be called a snob. 🤷🏼‍♀️ (or worse, lol)

[@agachill5000]

Man I grew up on the Redwall books such a legendary series. RIP Brian Jaques... I remember being twelve years old when Sorcerer's Stone released and our school library gave all the 6th grade classes a free copy. Considering I had just read The Hobbit for the first time that same year I always look back on that time in my life fondly.

[@NSnicket]

He came to my town when I was super little and really into his books. I missed meeting him but I did get an autographed book.

[@rohitchopra4023]

Yeah I was the perfect age (12 - 14) when YA really became YA so I was able to experience the Percy Jackson, Harry Potter wave and then as I got older, YA became more mature with more serious elements. So i guess I've been reading YA for most of my life!

[@dayenoms6011]

I was born in 1990, and I lived in a very small town lucky enough to have a movie theater with 2 screens. On the release night of the second or third film my mother and I went to go see it and I think I cried because the tickets were sold out for the whole day at our theater. My mom, a single parent going to school and raising me, drove around to nearby towns and we stayed up until early morning to view the movie. Growing up with the series was awesome, reading it then seeing it. My mother and I read the series together as I grew up and it brought us closer. 10/10 would do again.

[@Finkeldinken]

I'm from 1978 and I remember when Harry Potter craze hit. To me it was mostly exhausting, because I could hear from the buzz that the books were just not my cup of tea, and I started getting a bit snarky on the subject, but a friend of mine who studied literary history at the time said: "These books get people who would never pick up a book, reading! It's an amazing feat, just think about it!" and I had to agree. I never boarded the HP hype train, but I started smiling and waving as it drove by me, because I focused on how many more people might also get to ready my favourite books, compared to before HP. I was not aware of the YA genre even existed when I was "YA age", but looking back I have read some. It's just that I've been reading adult literature too from I was like, ten. I've recently read the YA books surrounding Sword of Kaigen, and the Binti trilogy, and tbh I wish they were there when I was a nine or ten yo kid. I would have loved them for sure. They'd have slottet in fine next to McCaffrey's Pern stuff. I know at least one author who writes fiction that gets labelled YA, but who is actually not strictly writing with young people in mind. My understanding is that she's writing for adults who would just like to read something cool while feeling safe knowing that no PTSD symptoms or other nastiness will be induced. I think that is a very worthy cause and I love that there is a space for it. I don't enjoy a lot of YA myself (I am one of those masochistic Malazan fans! It can't get too grim for me!) but I really, really appreciate that those books are there for other people to grab them and seek thrills and comfort from.

[@Ckrost]

Did you ever read them?

[@sharmilaporanki3376]

I just read 2 YA books and understood the pattern. An almost 17 year old-ish girl suddenly gets to know she is special and her world turns upside down and everything depends on her, she gotta save the world

[@Rinzler.14]

Oh YA, as a past bookstore employee and writer I find this category well extremely interesting. In one way it is the bridge between childrens and adults books, but in another way a kind of no no section for some younger people. I have said this before bookstore employees are often required to say that some YA books contain strong trigger points for young adults that may be upsetting. Yeah I know many people with in this age range are mature enough to handle the content, but let's be honest some arn't quite ready for it. Now where YA really interests me is that it allows a book series to last a long time as characters can grow and age with its target audience or fans. For many authors that becomes such a benefit as one allows them to fulfil their dreams as a published author and two to keep them economically stable so they can support themselves and their families. Let's face it not all authors are in the same position as J. K. Rowling; many are scrapping at the bottom of the piggy bank to survive or working other jobs to keep a roof over their head. Truely many many book could be in YA category but publishers have motives to keep them in normal categories to avoid the YA stigma, but others jump at the chance to be known as YA. Some books are even weirder like Harry Potter these days often found in childrens, YA and its own shelves or display for both the original books and the illustrated versions, acting if it has transcend being in any category or genre. Anyways good vid and theories Dan I look forward to your ponderings in part two.

[@Rinzler.14]

I do need to clarify that middle grade and childrens and kinda mixed together on shelves in Australian stores. Then there are young childrens picture books etc below. So childrens and middle grade is like 7 to 13 ish and then YA is kinda like 16 plus but some age over lap does occur depending on maturity level and parent acceptance.

[@TheGrimReaperXIII]

I was finishing high school when Deathly Hallows came out. Good times.

[@rhiannejones3815]

Omg this is taking me back to queueing outside WH Smith’s for the HP GoF release - it was absolutely epic!

[@TorgerVedeler]

Now you’ve gone and done it. Whenever I think of YA, I’m going to think of people with invisible chests. But an interesting look at something I literally knew nothing about. Thanks!

[@edwardlayer4259]

Just found out that Daniel is 4 years younger than me. I feel so old.

[@stevemarethyu3003]

I taught fifth grade for years, so I've read a lot of Middle Grade and YA fantasy. I really enjoyed it until I started reading Sanderson, Rothfuss and other really talented adult fantasy authors. It made me a lot more judgmental of the magic systems and storytelling in YA. I would have other teachers recommend books to me and end up hating them, because nothing made sense. I ended up getting a few of my students really into Sanderson's middle grade and YA books, so that was fun. I still enjoy reading Riordan's books or re-reading Harry Potter occasionally, but it's definitely not as enjoyable as it once was.

[@jadespurgeon6481]

As a person who adores PJ but is now 19 and trying to break away from childish YA books and wants to find more sophisticated but still fun books, do you recommend any?

[@RuanMei_SocietyGenius]

@@jadespurgeon6481 you've probably in your 21 or 22s, gonna recommend you The Name of the Wind (it's from Patrick Rothfuss) The Farseer Trilogy by Robin Hobb or Elantris by Sanderson.

[@EmilyOlivieri]

I’m 25 and just now moving out of the YA section 😅 I found the adult fantasy section a bit daunting and most of the well known books had Male leads, there’s nothing wrong with that but obviously I’m going to connect more with a female lead so I stuck to YA where majority of the fantasy books had female leads.

[@Idontcare5225]

I feel the same - thankfully I've seen a ton of modern day fantasy books breaking the traditional: "Fantasy and science fiction are only for men" trope. Binti, The Fifth Season, the Lightbringer, etc. are a few examples of how fantasy and sci fi are becoming more inclusive, but there still remains what I like to call, "The old boys club of fantasy lit" where you still have traditional male leads and sexualized side female characters. Historically there have always been women in fantasy, but they often had to publish under a male name because publishers didn't think a woman could sell in a "male dominated" genre.

[@saharakent8866]

"The Emperor's New Clothes" might hire you for live action so good luck :)

[@MissXaverie]

obsessed with your invisible torso and the fact that you decided to wear everything but shoes fsr. anyway when you mentioned the YA booms tarted in the 90s I was surprised when you jumped off with Harry Potter, when I saw HP as building off of previous series like Sweet Valley High, Dealing with Dragons, Fear Street, Animorphs, which were very popular before HP came around. But it made sense are you went on, in 2020 - a post-HP landscape - these probably wouldn't be considered YA when compared to books like Divergent and Uglies.

[@maartjedegroot9598]

I love a lot of YA books and I’m a lot older. But you’re right it’s not a genre. It’s an age range with a lot of different themes.

[@floorholleman1489]

“Such a strange time...” *laughs hysterically in 2020*

[@nimratmand3318]

Lol

[@nfislife4017]

Laughs hysterically in 2021

[@biblionerd]

The thing is, I consider a lot of the books you mentioned as Middle Grade (ie. Percy Jackson, Eragon, Narnia, and Harry Potter. Maybe, the latter half of the Harry Potter books fall into YA but the first few, not really).

[@victoriapride7575]

I remember being at a six week long summer camp in the middle of nowhere Massachusetts (like everyone was there for the full six weeks, no one left or joined after one or two weeks) when the half blood prince came out and my mom and sister visited me the day after the release with the book and I was the only kid who had it for that first week before anyone else got it shipped to them.

[@jenmaysie4092]

i wrote my undergraduate thesis on the YA demographic and its rise in popularity, its evolution and subsequent marketing strategies that are used by publishers to promote novels. so this was a fun video to watch!

[@mafiamentality8751]

I was recently looking for some YA books but I forgot the title of "YA", so I searched "teen fantasy" instead. Let me tell you, not what I expected to see.

[@FiveH0leSniper]

I was hired as security for a bookstore back in '07 for the final Harry Potter release at midnight. I was 22 at the time but still a fan. The bookstore was nice enough to let me buy a copy after all the pre orders were picked up. I did go home and read the whole thing to prevent spoilers. Good times.

[@mle_mae]

The books that got me into reading were The Wheel of Time, The Dark is Rising, Alana The Lioness, A Series of Unfortunate Events, The Golden Compass, and others of that quality. My mom gave me The Sorcerer's Stone when it first came out and told me it was, supposedly, really popular. I honestly don't remember if I made it through the first chapter. I did eventually cave and read the whole series a couple years after the last book came out and I remember liking it but nothing about the actual plot or characters were particularly memorable.

[@superiorgo2368]

I went to a midnight release of half blood prince. In a town of 30,000 just one of the 5 book stores in town had 300 + people waiting for it.

[@megravitt33]

Really glad you're doing this video series (though I hope it'll be more than 2 videos). I pick up ya and adult fantasy about equally and I love them both for what each offers that the other doesn't.

[@carrisebear3499]

RL Stein was pretty big in the late 80’s early 90’s. His books featured teen sex. Then the Goosebumps series came along and that was for younger teens. Judy Blume was also big.

[@jc_comicstuff]

imo the best YA has to offer is Bartimaeus trilogy, Old Kingdom/Abhorsen (trilogy), and Harry Potter. I get as much enjoyment from those as any adult fantasy.

[@calebmauer1751]

Bartimaeus was awesome, I should reread those some day.

[@9Godslayer]

Stroud made a prequel involving Solomon.

[@nikvlai9730]

you need to read six of crows

[@Ykhraam]

him: mentions john green me (without glasses): huh I thought he was john green

[@wham1984]

I thought he was related to him😂

[@SkyLimit101]

And here I am happy because The Kane Chronicles are in the background

[@ShelbyPlatt]

Man i miss going to locations and waiting for releases (i.e midnight movie premieres, Harry Potter book releases) those were the days!

[@olidiangelo]

just seeing the thumbnail, PERCY JACKSON IS NOT A YOUNG ADULT BOOK SERIES. its clearly written in the back of the books that the book is meant for 9-12 year old children. edit: but i love that that are many rick riordan books, much appreciated:)

[@elijahdavila3684]

At risk of being called a white knight or simp or whatever, and I'm not putting this on you at all Daniel, I've noticed that a lot of disdain for YA books tends to be directed towards YA that is specifically marketed for, or appeals largely to, young women. Twilight, The Hunger Games, Divergent, etc. all get dunked on regularly. I dont think this is specifically about quality as there is plenty of mediocre fantasy that is written more traditionally young men that doesn't get the same treatment. Things like The Maze Runner spring to mind. Why do you think this is?

[@sofiaamm]

out of pure curiosity i made a list comparing the blurbs of most of the popular YA 2017-2019 releases by new authors trying to figure out what wasn't working for me in YA anymore. i found are a few key words in almost every synopsis that try to make the book sound like a sarah j maas novel, or appeal to the romance readers, or readers looking for diversity and strong female characters. all blurbs started sounding the same to me because they all follow the same formula, like when we had the post hunger games dystopia craze

[@SamanthaPlansandReads]

sofia and her books I’m a teen librarian so I read a lot of YA for work and we joke about this. Every book is now pitched as the new SJM or Six of Crows set in the Middle East/space/France/West Africa/wherever. The new trend coming down the pipe is witches, covens, and girl gangs. So many iterations of the same dumb plot line or setup - I’m sure there are some gems in there, but they market them to all sound the same. It’s such a turn off.

[@sofiaamm]

SamanthaPlans that's interesting to heat coming from a librarian! and yes i agree, if you read many YA fantasy blurbs from recent releases they all start sounding the same

[@ellipsisarts680]

I read the first two Harry books when I was twelve and then grew up right along side him until they were done. I still reread them every couple of years because it's like visiting home.

[@jacobwiens659]

Someone finally talks about Scythe. I loved that book.

[@RileyEffective]

Nice! I had been waiting for this one! Also, love the shirt, haha

[@ughitstravis9243]

Hot take: Eragon wouldn't have been popular without Harry Potter

[@IsomerSoma]

Hot take: without star wars eragon wouldnt exist

[@polyhymnia701]

Hot take: _Eragon_ wouldn't exist without _Lord of the Rings_ and Star Wars. Harry Potter helped but wasn't as crucial. There is no Percy Jackson without Harry Potter. There is no Harry Potter without Roald Dahl, Diana Wynne Jones, Ursula K. LeGuin, Narnia, LotR, and Star Wars. A Series of Unfortunate Events would still exist without Harry Potter. Artemis Fowl would still exist without Harry Potter. But neither would be near as popular without it.

[@calebmauer1751]

Without Norse Mythology there would be no Lord of the Rings. Odin sacrificed himself so you could enjoy Eragon.

[@extremelybored7895]

I want to read Eragon, is it good?

[@justagirl...]

@@extremelybored7895 yesssss! It's a really well built world, with really good flawed, but real characters. The magic system is interesting too. It has lord of the rings vibes, but is easier to read

[@guirisama5713]

When the Harry Potter boom happened, I agree, it was matrketed towards people like you and me. So what did my parents get me instead? My first copy of J.R.R. Tolkien's The Hobbit. Ever since that day, I tried to avoid Harry Potter, as I was hearing it from all of my friends, and tried to find more obscure titles that, at the time, seemed more enjoyable to me. These includad: The Chronicles of Narnia, The Wardstone Chronicles, and Dragonlance. So in a wierd sort of way, I have Harry Potter to thank for expanding my horizons on other books, because I didn't want to read what everyone else was reading.

[@elrilmoonweaver4723]

Yet, Harry Potter is still worth a light read to see what it's about.

[@sernoddicusthegallant6986]

I mean, thats pretty hipster but you do you (And the hobbit and chronicles of narnia really arent obscure)

[@snowyyzoe]

Those aren't very obscure tbh, but that's interesting. I try to read a blend of what's popular and what's not.

[@sullivandmitry1416]

Yeeeeeeeesssssss. The fucking Wardstone Chronicles are fucking amazing. I suggest them to everyone and yet no one has ever knows of them for some reason.

[@316nicolee]

You were SO CLOSE to talking about how books are more likely to be marketed as YA if the author us female, which is a really strange and interesting phenomena - as you pointed out, it does tend to sell better, but also it has an effect of giving a general impression that women's work is meant for a younger audience - and maybe infantilizing their work in some way? Would love to hear your thoughts

[@zeroisland7]

WOW! I did not think a SAA story could be ya, you know this is the first good tip I ve had in a while. I guess the story that deals with SSA and other disaster would not be good for ya, as she get to about 28 yrs half way though. I wonder if a girl who is going to school at UW-Ma is accused of murder would be better written for ya. A good story about TSR would certainly make sense huh. Dt rules cant explain a good part of it but I want to thank you for directing me in a nice direction. TY, you been more help then you could ever believe.