SciFi Fantasy Subgenre Tier List

[@DanielGreeneReviews]

I like spooky things.

[@spacemanproletariat4279]

I thought this video was going to be about books in the 'Sci-Fi Fantasy' subgenre, you lied to me Daniel

[@monkeyforlife4712]

Same

[@milospollonia1121]

I don't

[@merrittanimation7721]

Spooky boi

[@mattastrophe]

Bro same

[@UdyKumra]

The fact that Daniel is excited about first contact for our civilization but also loves sci-fi horror kinda worries me...

[@Wyncrer]

Dont worry about it

[@merrittanimation7721]

Cthulhu: “ ‘Sup”

[@elbraymundo]

Aliens: "Hello" Daniel: "Ride to ruin and the world's ending"

[@goodisgood153]

those are also my favorite combination in a SciFi novle

[@justamanofculture12]

@@merrittanimation7721 *Elder Cthullu of House Annihilation liked your comment from 6 billion light years away*

[@ducky36F]

I’m not the biggest fan of westerns either but for some reason if it’s in space I normally dig it 😂

[@KatieGimple]

Same. I don't mind westerns, but if you give the cowboys laser guns and replace the horses with spaceships then I'm all in.

[@Faxeable]

Agree. Usually, I find normal western more boring than anything else. But add blasters and tech and I`m all in on it.

[@TheOnceandFutureJake]

Cowboy Bebop represent.

[@nathanwolthuis8988]

@@TheOnceandFutureJake don't you dare forget Firefly

[@robertbryce3225]

@@TheOnceandFutureJake and the others in the trinity: Outlaw Star and Trigun

[@nathanielcohn9073]

As a philosophy major and an engineer who works with code every weekday, I am abysmally burnt out on AI sci fi and with the theory that these janky ass machines we build our lives around might one day soon become sentient. Give me epic fantasy or space opera or space horror, but please, don't ask me about the nature of consciousness again. My computer is too dumb to live.

[@alexkozliayev9902]

Yeah, made my graduate work on neural networks. After that wanted to write a short story about guys who made "super-intellegence" for government, and their software gives "wrong" (i.e. not politically aligned) answers, so they just hardcode them instead. The more you know about AI, the more you understand that it is as far from consciousness or superintellegence as walking to the moon on your two feet.

[@syllphrena]

I agree with you (I've also worked extensively with NNs), but that's almost the entire point of the genre no? The people making the AI couldn't or wouldn't consider the potential ramifications and it gets out of hand. I don't think we'll see it in our lifetime but neither did anyone else for the invention and commodification of the computer.

[@KarlSnarks]

Would it be more interesting if the AI becomes a danger not because it's sentient, but because it has biases coded in by humans, or its rules cause unexpected interpretations of what it's supposed to do?

[@KarlSnarks]

@@alexkozliayev9902 Do you consider the fact that Elon Musk fears AI a good indication that he's a lousy engineer and mostly just an annoying tech-bro? And do you agree with me that the way I ask my question sounds in no way biased??

[@nathanielcohn9073]

@@KarlSnarks Sure. And I know some good fiction has come from that premise. I’m just exhausted with the debate about the personhood of computers in a world in which computers cause at least as many problems as they solve.

[@bookschocaholic]

I also really love Archaeological scifi /fantasy like Disney's Atlantis or the mummy or stargate where we're discovering new places or worlds or ancient places for academic purposes!! ❤️ I feel like it's really niche and underrated but if anyone has any books that fit... Recs are appreciated!

[@MrPenguinFingers]

Well, you have to go with the classics! Jules Verne, H. Rider Haggard, and that era.

[@rvantong]

Revelation Space

[@jasnacar9186]

Jack McDevitt's books seem right up your alley, especially series with Priscilla Hutchins....

[@bookschocaholic]

@@jasnacar9186 ooooh thank youuuuuuuu!! I'll check them out!

[@bookschocaholic]

@@rvantong scifi?

[@katymartin3924]

I have Parable of the Sower, and I am equal parts dying to and terrified to read it 😬 Edit: Also yes to the erotic fantasy video. Asking for a… me.

[@elessarbre]

I read Kindred recently and I'm definitely planning to read more of Octavia Butler's books.

[@katymartin3924]

@@elessarbre I’ve heard wonderful things about Kindred!

[@EvaSnyder]

The title of the book refers to a biblical parable Matthew 13 That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the lake. 2 Such large crowds gathered around him that he got into a boat and sat in it, while all the people stood on the shore. 3 Then he told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up. 5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root. 7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. 8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop-a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown. 9 Whoever has ears, let them hear.” Lauren Olamina the main character develops a religion called Earthseed. That is the seed of the parable. She tries to sow her seed several times, by starting communities, but as in the parable the communities fail for various reasons.

[@booksandtropes]

For western scifi the fact that we have firefly means I will automatically put it in S tier, along with any scifi horror/ horror fantasy. However Urban fantasy will always be my favorite, with urban fantasy police/detective being top of god tier!

[@DragonwolfoftheSands]

Why do people like Firefly so much? Not bashing I just don't remember it being very memorable

[@booksandtropes]

@@DragonwolfoftheSands personally I'm a sucker for found family, and the i'll protect my crew no matter what vibe of the show. I really liked the characters and setting but part of why people like it (in my opinion) is probably because it only got one season and it will forever be remembered for what it could have been. Lots of cool things were set up but they never had a chance to explore them.

[@xx99Username99xx]

For me, it's Cowboy Bebop. For those who like a little jazz with their space western.

[@Punkandcannonballer]

Read Rivers of London.

[@DragonwolfoftheSands]

@@xx99Username99xx Cowboy Bebop is a good example of what I mean. Great show but I'm not a fan of the setting or character archetypes

[@billyberry8954]

Daniel: *doesn't like Westerns Me: "What in tarnation?"

[@orbitingpluto3213]

Shiny.

[@drock3309]

The fact that Daniel did Halo: Contact Harvest, a first contact book, and labeled it a military sci-fi and then did the "first contact" sub-genre right after, made me laugh way harder than it should have 😂

[@seaniverse]

Irony at its finest

[@joshuakusuma5953]

That fact that Daniel used Halo for military sci-fi makes me want to see him read and give his thoughts on every Halo novel ever published. Maybe then Brian David Gilbert will have someone to talk to about it. Also: Armor>Starship Troopers. That's just what I think about it.

[@sernoddicusthegallant6986]

I do legitimately think he would love the Forerunner and Kilo five trilogies.

[@drock3309]

@@sernoddicusthegallant6986 I think so too. Those books are Halos gems imo.

[@chrisrussell1106]

I find it ironic that the book he uses for military sci-fi, Harvest, is a first contact novel, which he goes on to say he loves. 🤣

[@legendthorne2085]

Honestly Starship Troopers isn't even that good of a Military Scifi. Things like Craig Alanson's Expeditionary Force is way better or The Spiral War by Joel Shepard where the main ship goes from alien race to alien race while on the run and fighting a 'big bad' invading race. There are a lot of great Military Scifi, depending of you want to see grunts going through wars with aliens or the Lone Starship fighting others which is always great and a adventure. The Lost Fleet is a great one though military heavy. Then there are ones that are barely military while mostly story about exploring space and contact with new aliens.

[@sentinelshoshin4632]

Daniel: *Puts space opera in mid-B* Me: "I think we're done here."

[@-shakir5152]

Dude, space opera should be in top s just because of the possibilities of it being all time great sub genre.

[@Luke-nn4pm]

Space Opera being less than S++++++ is just wrong🤣

[@vadarman9906]

And fantasy epic is in S. They're basically the same thing 🤣

[@evanflynn4680]

I like the dystopia hiding as utopia. Like the main character lives in a utopic society, then they get to see behind the curtain and find out that it's all lies. The Truman show is a good example, as it's "near scifi" in that while we probably could do something close to creating a giant dome with a habitat inside, we definitely couldn't do it in such a way that you didn't know you were in a habitat.

[@grudley]

Most attempts at sci fi utopia i've read are actually accidental sci fi dystopias in my opinion. Culture novels and Greg Egan come to mind

[@milospollonia1121]

When it is done right, absurdism is unbeatable in my opinion.

[@robertwinslade3104]

Yep; Terry Pratchett and Douglas Adams proved that beyond doubt

[@lamenter6932]

@@robertwinslade3104 also JK Rowling- that legend.

[@lukegregg5944]

Any particular favourite books to win me over?

[@robertwinslade3104]

@@lukegregg5944 Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy by Douglas Adams for Sci-fi. Discworld by Terry Pratchett for Fantasy (check out the numerous where-to-start guides for Discworld here on KZbin for recommendations of the best entry level Discworld books)

[@Zetamen7]

It just opens up all the possibilities, it's great

[@duser]

What happened to steam punk? It used to be my favorite genre and now, it seems like its been entirely replaced by cyberpunk. I love the idea of a ruthelessly efficient machine that incoorperates everything in its structure from flesh to mechanical.

[@thegodofalldragons]

Did you know that William Gibson practically started both those genres (though with steampunk he had some help)? I only found that out recently.

[@duser]

@@thegodofalldragons Well, sounds like a perfect place to start re-exploring the genre! thanks!

[@thegodofalldragons]

@@duser Yeah, I believe it's called The Difference Engine.

[@andrewdiaz3529]

Maybe from a different angle it can find a resurgence. Like, a chance to not make the same mistakes as our age of steam and beyond.

[@jaginaiaelectrizs6341]

I am SO GLAD I'm not the only one who still remembers Steampunk fondly. ^-^ I actually remember Cyberpunk kind of being a bigger thing first though, then Steampunk kind of took over for a little while, and now I guess Cyberpunk is back. Loll

[@darklordthomaspie6293]

Your knowledge of speculative fiction genres impresses me greatly, and also makes me quite happy

[@Blate1]

The Wheel of Time guy didn’t put Epic Fantasy in S tier? ….. ??????????

[@badusernam]

Thats what i thought too

[@MrWhangdoodles]

Too much trash out there.

[@ShimSlady]

Petition for Daniel to read/review Iain Banks’ Culture series to broaden his utopian sci-fi horizons

[@robertwinslade3104]

I second this

[@toothgnash]

He's already enthusiastic about 'AI sci fi'

[@user-lp7tx1fe6t]

Yes

[@raviscud]

Absolute must!

[@JLchevz]

or commonwealth, or revelation space or idk, he HAS to

[@landon3137]

I’d be really interested in a Discworld book tierlist!

[@LogicStudios_1]

yes we need to see this

[@siruh]

This is by far one of my absolute favorite videos you have ever done, while I enjoy hearing your opinion (though I don’t share some of it 😂) this video is SO educational for me, 95% of what I read is fantasy and I have a hard time narrowing down what I’m into and looking for and this is so clarifying

[@wackyswacky1374]

12:55 suddenly Dan goes into a Dr. Seuss rhyme.

[@aaryantawhare1513]

😂

[@SamMallaghan]

😂

[@liamcollins1236]

I would recommend The Culture series by Iain M Banks as an example of Utopian sci-fi. Also has the coolest ships in any sci-fi I have read.

[@ryan_17295]

Yes for the Culture and Iain M Banks in general

[@xx99Username99xx]

Cool ships like Mistake Not My Current State of Joshing Gentle Peevishness for the Towering Seas of Ire That Are Themselves the Mere Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans of Wrath.

[@shemjaza]

It's weird that he loves AI and the absurd and has had positive reactions to utopian Sci Fi, but doesn't mention the Culture.

[@shaygreenhorn2756]

I love that he didn’t want the mainstream to associate him with sci-fi so he wrote all of his mainstream novels under the name Iain Banks and for all of his sci-fi novels he chose the ingenious pseudonym of Iain *M* Banks. Like way to go, you sure fooled them buddy.

[@ryan_17295]

@@xx99Username99xx Ravished By The Sheer Implausibility Of That Last Statement

[@PsychologyandChillwMichi]

extinction i think is usually called "post apocalyptic" but i'll take it

[@joshuakuruvilla]

Some Halo books were really good when coupling a good author with the intriguing premise (utilitarian society builds supersoldiers to combat advanced multicultural alien force) i.e. Eric Nylund, Fall of Reach.

[@GenerateSilence]

Nylund's early stuff was really solid. But what really surprised me was Greg Bear's Forerunner Trilogy. That first installment, Cryptum, was so good and no weapons are even fired... in a FPS media franchise. Also, I gotta be the ACTUALLY guy and mention the SPARTANs were created to put down human colony rebellions long before the Covenant showed up. Always liked that the greatest hope for mankind was birthed in such grim context.

[@joshuakuruvilla]

I was a bit burnt by the last game, but the books have often always been GOOD TO GREAT reads. Definitely will check out Greg Bear's run!

[@RookBone]

Personally I'm a massive fan of the kilo-five trilogy. I love how we see some of the consequences to the families of the Spartan IIs. The ONI team going about their missions was really fun too. And come on, Black Box is just brilliant.

[@dant5349]

Well now I gotta know what the three Westerns you like are

[@user-ez9ng2rw9c]

Dollars trilogy for the win.

[@sametcanth]

Liked before watching because I know that I’ll love it!

[@archer1949]

I still love The Dresden Files, but I actually miss the lower stakes, case of the week structure of the earlier books.

[@EvaSnyder]

Yeah, he suffers from power escalation. But one could see that as character development, or a longer story arc.

[@MrChainrule]

I wonder if he's got more short stories that are ready to go, it's not like there's been any break in the story for Dresden to do the old Dresden stuff. He's going to need a minute to emotionally recover from the events of the last book.

[@troikas3353]

Cyberpunk is my favorite subgenre, I love it both for the surface level aesthetic and for the ever increasingly relevant and nigh-prescient issues and themes it explores.

[@theatheistpaladin]

Creature fantasy is straight S tier. All for "Harry and the Hendersons."

[@KatieGimple]

Dystopia I agree has some of the smartest stories out there, and a lot of the very best sci-fi is dystopian, but the worst of the worst also tends to be dystopian (cough cough Divergent cough cough).

[@briangarrow448]

Alien Invasion and alternative history together? Try Harry Turtledove’s Worldwar series set in the years surrounding WW2. Lizard Aliens land on an earth torn apart by the fight between fascism, communism and western capitalism. I think it’s one of his best alternative history themes.

[@robertblume2951]

The first 2 books are great but I lost interest after that.

[@Ulghan]

My tier list here would be pretty much a flipped version of Daniel's.

[@rickh852]

As it turns out so would mine be.

[@itsyaboi77]

Love it when Daniel drops videos earlier than 9 bc then I can watch them before work!

[@RENDAN_iel]

I like the genre of sci-fi/fantasy books where 80 year olds are like “I remember reading that when I was a youth! What do you want again?”

[@sumukhavenkatesha6171]

Got a recommendation

[@cassandramuller7337]

I'd say yes to some erotic fantasy recommendations. I like to read it when there's more to it than just "they need a plot as an excuse to bang". I like when there's a good mix of plot, romance, erotica and world building. I have my favs but I'd love to hear more about it from another source.

[@merlinssister12]

I, and this is a personal opinion, think utopian is almost always dystopian in disguise

[@jakerockznoodles]

One person's utopia may be another person's dystopia (and vice versa), it all comes down to what a "perfect world" looks like to you and what sacrifices you would deem as acceptable in order to get there. I think dystopias are easier to write because you can always exaggerate the negatives of a society to portray it as bad, even if you would agree with the general principle (see the many super-capitalist dystopian settings out there, enjoyed by capitalists and anti-capitalists alike). Try to create a utopia and there will always be people who disagree that it actually IS one. For example, it may have required a limitation of freedoms some would consider unacceptable, or it exists as the result of a eugenics programme readers may find unethical.

[@carmensavu5122]

Star Trek DS9 would seem to support that...

[@jadenlee2575]

I’ve been telling all my friends lately about how badly I want to start reading erotic fantasy but I have this preconceived notion of the genre being bogged down with cringey, terrible writing that I wouldn’t even know how to begin sifting through. So yes recommendation video please!!!

[@jaginaiaelectrizs6341]

Here's the thing though.... how exactly people do & don't define terrible writing varies greatly depending on who you're talking to and exactly what they're referring to when they personally say that. (Many people who talk about terrible writing, for example, aren't actually technically talking about the writing at all so much as they are talking about story development & such.) Similarly, what is or isn't "cringe" can also vary a lot from person to person. You should try to worry a little less about those things and more about just finding whatever you do or don't personally enjoy yourself. 🙂 BUT - that being said - I'd totally be interested in seeing that erotic fantasy recs video too. 🤣🤣🤭 So, here's to hoping it actually happens!💜 🥂LOLL ^--^

[@Ktulured55]

I also vote for the Erotic Fantasy video. Hope daniel makes it happen!

[@kateinmadison]

Any thoughts on time travel stories?It's one of my favorite tropes with a lot of variation in outcome.

[@oneoftheorder]

As stated by others, this tier list clearly demonstrates the need for a goblin invasion of Iain Banks's Culture series. I think it might be the only example of quality utopian sci fi I can think of other than Star Trek.

[@74gould]

My personal "S" tier would basically be your "C" tier, and my "C" tier would be half of your "S" tier.

[@austenmoore7326]

I was thinking the same thing but sword and sorcery for s too

[@74gould]

@@austenmoore7326 Sword & Sorcery is my #1 :)

[@Thagomizer]

Damn straight. S&S is Fantasy Action/Adventure.

[@soaney1349]

I actually live in Woking where War of the Worlds is set, and i walk past HG Wells' house on my way into the office.

[@mirrorwaves6612]

"The only thing I can't see it working is erotic fantasy" Me: okay let me just hide my monster... uhm. appreciation works

[@mattiOTX]

The anime outlaw star made me fall in love with sci-fi westerns. I'd suggest giving that a watch

[@BrotherB-kr7sm]

The Culture by Iain M Banks - great series and solid example of an interesting take on the Utopian Sci Fi genre

[@shamblepants1450]

I will literally drop everything when I hear about a new science fiction/horror movie or series. While I enjoy many types of speculative fiction, this is THE sub-genre for me when it comes to television or movies. Thanks for the great tier list!

[@jarltrippin]

I'd love to see Daniel get into Ursula K. Le Guin's sci-fi work.

[@angrymoose3383]

My problem with hard sci-fi is that it’s usually just speculation on the outcomes of scientific advancements that we are currently working towards. Alongside The Martian by Andy Wier, the Mars trilogy by Kim Stanley Robinson (Red Mars, Green Mars, and Blue Mars) is a great example of it. The meat and potatoes of the trilogy is just half Kim Stanley Robinson examining geological formations and half the way human psychology interacts with being in a Mars colony. It’s masterful, and I have a lot of respect for it, but it feels like a lot of hard sci fi draws from it’s style, and just speculates about what will happen when we eventually achieve our goals.

[@marioksoresalhillick299]

8:35, you could take the easiest example which would be the namesake of the genre - Utopia by Thomas More. Oh, also The Dispossessed is called an "ambiguous utopia" and so could be part of that genre. I used to be very anti-utopia... but now I am into the sort of melancholic "ambiguous" utopic stories of the likes of Ursula k LeGuin.

[@toothgnash]

Ian M Banks' 'the Culture' series is fantastic utopian sci-fi. Feels odd to discuss the genre without a callout to them.

[@giuliakenway6500]

Thomas More's Utopia isn't just the namesake, it's where the genre name comes from :)

[@robertblume2951]

The problem is that Utopia isn't a utopian story it is a Satire.

[@marioksoresalhillick299]

@@toothgnash Oh yes! I was thinking about them while writing the comment, unfortunately I had forgotten the name, so I didn't mention it. But yes, I really would like to read it!

[@marioksoresalhillick299]

@@robertblume2951 hmmm... I didn't know that, though it doesn't seem to be a total satire (like, some parts of it aren't satire, at least, from my own research). Even if that isn't true, it's still a utopian book, if a satirical utopian book rather than a normal utopian book!

[@Galayak]

Me: Oh cool a Dan video about sub-genres I wonder what he'll- Daniel: *Military-scifi in D tier* Me: aaand that's death by electrocution then. Lovely.

[@drock3309]

He didn't have to do Halo dirty like that 😭

[@drisssen5694]

Thank you Daniel for providing us with good content ❤

[@sidepunch]

Also alien invasion would be great idea for Cosmere books.

[@duskshard4854]

Skyward is Brandon Sanderson, though not Cosmere

[@sidepunch]

@@duskshard4854 iam sorry , but I haven't read a single Cosmere book yet iam currently reading warbreaker , I just know I bit about them.

[@brockmiller9891]

I guess you could consider "Sixth of the Dusk" from the Arcanum Unbounded collection as "alien" invasion

[@robertwinslade3104]

Spoilers for Stormlight Archive... Couldn't you argue that SA is alien invasion after the reveal in Oathbringer? That humans were originally aliens who invaded Roshar and the Parshendi were the natives. It just takes place thousands of years after the initial invasion

[@milospollonia1121]

@@robertwinslade3104 Spoilers for SA Yeah, you totally could, but I think alien invasion is more about the actual fighting/first contact and not many thousand years later.

[@thegodofalldragons]

I think the early seasons of TNG, when Roddenberry was more involved, reinforce your notion that Utopian sci-fi has fairly constricted storytelling potential. When your characters are too perfect and are always nice to each other, they stop being relatable or interesting.

[@gajbooks]

There's absolutely loads of room behind the scenes for dark stuff in a fanatically utopian society like Star Trek. The new series are just complete garbage at exploring any and all complex characters though and the whole thing feels like a fever dream of a technobabble episode.

[@jaginaiaelectrizs6341]

Except for people who are actually, genuinely nice to others and who feel more estranged from all the other fictional depictions of people they can't relate to at all-and/or by the general world's insistence these days that if you're too nice (or even sometimes if you're just an average person who isn't necessarily super super nicer than anyone else but also isn't super extraordinarily riddled with issues or anything either) then you're "fake" somehow or "boring"/"uninteresting" or "have no personality" and shite...not just in fiction but in reality too. _OR_ for people who just prefer their fiction consumption to be more optimistic/hopeful, escapist ideals rather than a totally realistic reflection of the things they have to deal with in reality. ***speaking ONLY to the 'they stop being relatable or interesting' bit, not so much necessarily to the fact that it might be limiting as far as the nature or scope of stories that can be told with it goes* _(i guess i just don't personally see being limited as necessarily being a completely bad thing, either to audiences who just know what they prefer to consume & don't personally need that much variety anyway OR to audiences who consume multiple different types of fiction either way so can get their fill of variety by stepping outside of a particular genre if necessary rather than always needing variety within each & every style or genre type that they do consume)_ ((I believe [pretty-much-]ALL character and story types serve their own purposes/audiences. So, I personally think it's kind of wrong to undervalue any certain type versus other types for no real reason other than just because they're not to one's own personal preference, regardless of whether their actual audience/appeal is to a proper majority or only to some small minority of all people/audiences in the world at large; I think it's a slippery-slippery slope when people rank majority-appeal as inherently or absolutely greater value above anything else if weighed by any standard other than merely how much money it might make or the sheer numbers of people it might reach overall which I don't personally view as the be-all-end-all of value in general, and I think more small-scale &/or niche appeals are actually equally as valuable as anything else is simply in a different[ yet not actually any genuinely lesser] way. [ IF that makes sense ? ] But maybe that's just my own way of seeing it.))

[@adambirch6466]

Cyberpunk done well is an incredibly important genre. The aesthetic gets a lot of attention, but the core of the genre is an exploration about what it means to be human, humanity's relationship to technology, and the effects our inventions have on our humanity. While also grappling with the issue of technology advancing faster than humanity can account for the consequences and where that leads.

[@sntxrrr]

When it comes to cyberpunk, to me the absolute highpoint in the last 30 years has to be Ghost In The Shell. It takes the idea of artificial humans, doesn't run with it but steps into a racecar and accelerates to the horizon. It portrays a world where the distinction between artificial and human is one huge, messy gray area which makes it feel so much more lived in and realistic. I hope more people will read the original manga which is a collection of short stories. The 1995 movie is a classic too. Many praise the SAC animated tv-series but although good, to me it suffers from a severe case of techno-babble just to sound interesting. Avoid the American live action movie, not so much because of the racial controversy at the time but because it torpedoes the concept behind the story.

[@hoominbeeing]

If someone is ok with replacing white characters with non-white ones like they did with the Invincible adaptation and countless others, then they should have no problem with turning non-white characters into white ones unless they like double standards. The racial controversy at the time was a case of extreme double standards.

[@jamesd.c.4810]

The Body Snatchers is a great alien invasion story.

[@revjoe250]

Daniel: "Sword and sorcery has had its time. I'm done with it. Low C." Me, trying to write modern Sword and Sorcery for a living: :(

[@jeremycurle6880]

don't worry bro i still like s&s. the witcher is s&s. the genre ain't going anywhere.

[@malcomalexander9437]

Write your S&S, hopefully you are writing an actual Sword and Sorcery, and not the modern BS Epic/High Fantasy disguised as Sword and Sorcery.

[@EmpressNoriko]

I love Sword & Sorcery so keep on writing. Also I think even Daniel would say if you do it well, bring something new to it, etc. then your work can be great and popular. A good writer can take the schlockiest most overdone, tropey sub genre and make it great again.

[@sethkeown5965]

keep writing it. there'll be a market. the goblin doesnt like it, doesnt mean everybody doesnt.

[@robertblume2951]

Are you aware of the modern small press magazines and anthologies like Cirsova and DMR press that currently publish it? If not head over to their respective websites and hook into the pulp revolution.

[@MovedbyTruth]

I think the Cyberpunk genre has the ability to make a great story, with deep and fleshed out characters, but hasn't quite reached that level yet. Not the way epic fantasy has. I'd really like to see a cyberpunk story that's held up to ASOIAF, Stormlight and TLOTR in terms of overall quality.

[@carltanner7461]

Have you seen Possessor? It's Semi-Cyberpunk.

[@MovedbyTruth]

@@carltanner7461 No, I haven't. I'll definitely check it out, though. Thanks for the suggestion.

[@kraziiXIII]

Can I make a suggestion? Having the screen say the genre titles may help watchers differentiate which genre you are talking about. Like I had a hard time differentiating from the space opera and the space western and I don't have any visual cues to backtrack to the explanation to compare so that makes it hard to see the difference between the genres. Having title cards may be a good idea in future tierlists. It is additional editing but I think your viewers would appreciate it!

[@limalepakko6074]

I thought I wouldn’t be very into the alien invasion genre either but then I realized that most of my favourite scifi things are actually examples of that genre, mainly Mass Effect and Half-Life. Remembrance of Earth’s Past is pretty good too

[@Shiva182Katarina]

I would love the recommendations for the Erotic fantasy books :D

[@soniciris]

Underrated sci-fi subgenre is xeno-socio-political sci-fi, and if you can't think of an example read some CJ Cherryh and watch her create alien cultures so naturally and complexly that you put down the novel thinking humans are the weird, alien ones. I'm not normally into military sci-fi but the Empire of Man series by Ringo and Weber is my favorite of it--the world building is fascinating and I love watching the spoiled-but-competent prince and his marine guards make their way across the planet, starting at native stone-age territory and going through a (Dino-mounted) cavalry army and then the age of sail on their way to take over a space ship.

[@ishaanvishah1885]

Not me embarrassingly clueless about what the S (tier) stands for..

[@merrittanimation7721]

Superior

[@Miss_Myth]

@@thedragonflyers6184 Both are valid responses. In certain competitions in the US (my personal experience was marching band in HS), they explicitly state that "Superior" is their highest-level score. If you start with an A-F scale, but want a category for those that go above and beyond, there's no English letter before A to use. I wasn't aware of the Japanese influence for having an S tier, that doesn't mean it's not real, same goes for the "Superior" definition of S.

[@jaginaiaelectrizs6341]

I assume it's equivalent to "super"/"superb" & or "star" or something in those veins. ..something like saying it's a thing that's a cut above even the highest grade, or something like that. Buuut who even knows! Lolll _I just googled it real quick about the S tier in Japan... Apparently it stands for "shuu" which means "excellence". So, basically, same difference._

[@INTCUWUSIUA]

@@Miss_Myth it actually comes from Japan, where their top grade is S for 秀, or "excellent". The idea of S as a grade above A was then popularised in the west through various video games and arcade machines, many of which were from Japan.

[@finishorforget9059]

Neal Shusterman's Scythe Series does the Utopian Sci Fi to another level. One of my favorites

[@LeRoiDuFresne]

I can’t believe you used a Halo pic for the military sci-fi, specially the cover for first contact harvest, and continue to go on and rate first contact sci-fi lol.

[@chrisrussell1106]

I came here to find this comment. 🤣

[@taragonleaf8005]

Timothy Zahn's Conquerers Trilogy is an awesome blend of first contact and military scifi

[@LarryHasOpinions]

Daniel, it's called post-apocalyptic xD (loved the vid

[@ambale455]

I remember a video in which Daniel was talking about how SFF is often disrespected in academic. So to anyone who cares about that, this semester I'm actually gonna take a "Science Fiction in Puerto Rican Literature" class in my university!!! I'm so beyond excited! And so happy that SFF is beginning to be seen for the true work of art it is. Edit: so a quick overview! The notable work was one of a 1955 author who wrote some really interesting science fiction short stories, but never a novel. I have not found an English translation, I actually mention this on the recent video that came out about translation in a comment from my main account, this is an old account with an email I don't use much for personal reasons. The anthology is called " la rebelión de los átomos" there is an edition of it recently published that includes all the science fiction and imaginative stories written by the author, Washington Llorens, being that he had trouble with the publishing back in his day and the original edition of the book doesn't include all of those stories but some literary fiction as well, presumably to appeal to an audience wary of science fiction. So if you can read Spanish, you can buy "la rebelión de los átomos" newly published by los libros de la iguana online from a local bookshop here in Puerto Rico. Before that author, we really only have two short stories one is from the 1914 and the other is from 1931 , but those authors are not science fiction authors per se, but the stories are about artificial insemination and speaking with aliens, so they do qualify as science fiction. The artificial insemination one does contain racism though, which our professor used to also address racism in Puerto Rico. There is a late 1800 novel that falls under the fantasy genre (that's another conversation), but uses scientific language so it can feel a bit like science fiction, but it's nearly impossible to get your hands on and I only read excerpts so I don't know whether it's good or not. It's about a man entering a woman's body, so I'm also not sure whether or not the story is offensive. Then we have writers from today, like Pedro Cabiya, Alexa Pagán, and others I can't recall. All short stories, Pedro Cabiya's stories are quite grotesque (you can search his name and easily find him), Pagán stories are more dystopian and I personally loved them, you can find her looking up her name with her anthology, horror-REAL. I however have not read it in full, but do plan to. There is definitely a lot more out there is to still learn and discover

[@dominiccenteno1233]

This may be ignorant but isn't Spanish the langauge in Puerto Rico?

[@ambale455]

@@dominiccenteno1233 yes it is! I wrote this comment a long while back ago, I'm not sure why I chose to specify the university is in Puerto Rico thing, they could've given that class anywhere 💀 I'll probably edit that out The class itself was of Puerto Rican authors (from the island, not the diaspora) who have written science fiction, all the works are in Spanish since that is the main language here If anyone who this is interested in what I learned I'll add it to the edit and you can check that out!

[@Njerve1]

A big one i'd place in utopian (And highly recommend): The Culture series by Iain M. Banks.

[@robertwinslade3104]

Yes! Would love to see Daniel review The Culture

[@nicolemonroe7013]

Came here to say the same thing :)

[@timmeyer9191]

Event Horizon is one of the most terrifying films I have ever seen.

[@justpepper5126]

Daniel: "I'm past mid-20 now..." Me: "Slow down, Danny, no need to brag."

[@TheOnceandFutureJake]

A couple of examples of Military Sci-fi to check out if you haven't already, Daniel: 1. Stargate! Stargate SG-1 and Atlantis are VERY good at weaving in new avenues to explore sociopolitical, philosophical, etc. quandries through the lens of "gate travel." Well worth checking out! 2. Mass Effect! As much Space Opera as it is Military, it's still worth experiencing. A truly epic ride that really tells it's story soo well.

[@jamesmalik3355]

Daniel, what are your thoughts on Firefly?

[@susansprague7304]

This could make or break the channel for me ....

[@ATTACKTV8]

Firefly is so hard to talk about due to the circumstances surrounding it, Serenity coming out and trying to condense a story that was meant to be told over seasons of a show, and just how said surrounding factors made it very much lightning in a bottle.

[@elihinze3161]

I love historical fantasy. There's not much of it, but it's a favorite subgenre of mine. Horror fantasy is, too. Now, a historical fantasy with horror elements? An even smaller niche, but absolute gold. :)

[@MirtlifTheWise]

I would consider Mandalorian equal parts Samurai/Ronin, as much as I would also consider it western. With space opera thrown in as well

[@Miss_Myth]

I love watching these. I rarely agree with all of Daniel's rankings, but that's what I enjoy - he expresses his reasons and perspectives *SO*. WELL. that it gives me a fresh view & understanding of genres/books/etc I haven't enjoyed or haven't even considered. Even if I don't plan to read his suggestions because I know it's not for me, he never makes me feel bad about that, and I get a glimpse into that world as a bonus. 🥰

[@ThoomLord]

Can I just note, that the book cover he uses for Militaristic sci-fi is the Halo Book that is litterally about first contact, and he uses it right before the "first contact" genre. Yes the Halo books are all militaristic (although I geniuenly think Daniel would love them, at least certain ones like the Kilo Five Trillogy) even that one, but I just found it a little funny.

[@ryan1840]

Cyberpunk is my favorite tbh. It has so much nuance and social commentary that goes so far beyond the aesthetic. Which I also happen to love

[@morrigan236]

Would be interesting to hear him elaborate a bit on what he means by "sword and sorcery" in contrast to "epic fantasy." I mean, these two often overlap.

[@annamonson212]

This was really fun to watch. I've seen urban fantasy work the best on really small scale stories, often on webtoons or independent comics, that are mundane enough to really, truly integrate how magic interacts with tech. On larger scale stories I've often felt that fantasy seems pasted into an urban setting and it stops me from engaging with characters that dont seem to explore both technical and magical solutions with no exploration of why something would or would not work. So I'm a mundane, almost ghibli vibes, urban fantasy lover.

[@geceergen7920]

Daniel: I don't like westerns. Me: Aren't you a western? [OH! You're talking about a genre!!!]

[@mvprindle]

A western is a story with cowboys. A westerner us someone from the west.

[@kate_meara]

I think of only Katya when I see the movie ‘contact’ in any context

[@giuliakenway6500]

What you described as "extinction Sci-fi" is what I would just plainly categorize as Postapocalyptic, and I thought that was the popular term for it... Did you just want to further distinguish it from that? Oh and btw postapocalyptic settings will always be top of S for me, I eat that up.

[@ChristmasLore]

It is. You're right.

[@vilhjálmr626]

Dan: Sword and Sorcery- low C Me: So you've chosen death.

[@charlespeter5610]

The Parable of the Sower might have given me existential depression, it's fantastic haha

[@veronicaholme803]

I just read it for the first time last month and I felt broken afterward but in the best way. That’s the good shit

[@AtaraxianWist]

When you got to cyberpunk I KNEW you would talk about how people think of it as an aesthetic, and I KNEW you would mention Hello Future Me's video. I still think of that essay all the time.

[@user-lp7tx1fe6t]

>Talks about utopian sci-fi and how it should be done in a new original way >Doesn't mention The Culture books

[@mhunger2042]

^^^^^

[@robertwinslade3104]

100%. Daniel needs to read this series

[@DragonwolfoftheSands]

What's culture about?

[@robertwinslade3104]

@@DragonwolfoftheSands it's a sci-fi anthology book series of 10 books by British author Iain M. Banks. Each of the 10 books is a stand alone story set in and around an intergalactic, post-scarcity, Anarcho-Communist utopian civilization called the Culture, which is composed mostly of various humanoid species, living alongside incredibly powerful artificial intelligences known as the Minds. It's a modern sci-fi classic; I highly recommend it. If you want to know more, the book tube channel Media Death Cult covers The Culture a lot

[@user-lp7tx1fe6t]

@@DragonwolfoftheSands the Culture is to modern sci-fi what that wheel of time thing is to fantasy. The culture books are just brilliant, and teeming with imagination. Also, Iain Banks KNOWS how to write a climax. You'll never be disappointed by one of his endings. I've never been as glued to the pages of a book as I was when reading the climax of Player Of Games.

[@gustadood9166]

Regarding absurdist Sci-fi, Terry Pratchett had written a book called Dark Side of the Sun. It was a fun enough read with amazing and ridiculous concepts that were fun to try and imagine. Fantasy (namely Discworld) was definitely his greater strength, but I was happy to enjoy his contribution to this niche within the genre. PS. I wholeheartedly support Daniel's suggestion that Daniel and his friend make a "mature" fantasy recommendation video.

[@BlackHand531]

The best space operah is legends of the galactic heroes.

[@ShubhamGupta-ir2gn]

I was NOT expecting to see this comment and I am glad to see it.

[@BlackHand531]

@@ShubhamGupta-ir2gn It was it is. Can't wait for them to finish the new adaptation.

[@ThatSpecificIndividual]

I really need to watch that.

[@BlackHand531]

@@ThatSpecificIndividual the new version is great but it's only about half way through

[@JennaGetsCreative]

Very good points about cyberpunk! The latest novel I read and absolutely loved in that genre was Into Neon.

[@stevezanders8279]

I would love for you to have your friend on to talk about erotic fantasy! That genre needs more people talking about it!

[@MisterJingo93]

My alltime favourite has to be absurdist fantasy as in Terry Prachtetts Disk World series. The fact that it is within the same book allmost always histerically funny, deeply humanistic and in parts straight up philosophic, while playing out in this absolutly strange and crazy world he created will allways hook me. Line and sinker.

[@marioksoresalhillick299]

I have to say... the Western genre also had a huge influence on the fantasy genre. Honestly, though, I'd be really curious to know why exactly you dislike the Western genre, since it doesn't seem to me to be *that* different from any other genre.

[@elbraymundo]

Would also like to see which Western films you DO like and why

[@Alverant]

For me, it's overly macho. It's also based on a problematic historical period of US history that's still mythologized today and recent enough to make me uncomfortable.

[@revjoe250]

I'll say this, as a big fan of the Western myself from the time I was a kid, he kinda has a point. Most of the genre has not moved beyond its founding themes and characters. Even with movies like "Pale Rider" and "Bone Tomahawk," it still focuses on the same rugged individual who all the other characters sort of orbit around. It hasn't quite embraced the greater spectrum of people and situations that the modern versions of other genres have. It's a bit backwards looking. All that being said, I think it's a bit silly that he likes Yojimbo and not A Fistful of Dollars. They're quite literally the same damn movie. By the way, if anyone reads this and wants to explore some genuinely interesting Western books, read "Blood Meridian" and "Heart of the Country." Neither is an east read, and the latter can be frankly boring in parts; but they're both a radically different take on the Western. Edit: Okay, I hadn't watched the video yet. He gives western-fantasy a C rank, but powder fantasy a B rank. Dude... again, they're the same damn thing. It's just 18th/19th century adventure inspired sci fi/fantasy. I guess it's an aesthetic choice, we've been exposed to a whole lot more John Wayne in America than Rider Haggard.

[@robertblume2951]

@@revjoe250 But he also doesn't like sword and sorcery or pulps in general. So it would appear his gripe is actually with the individualism and not the aesthetic.

[@DragonwolfoftheSands]

@@revjoe250 ? They're not the same thing at all unless you're just looking at the time period and presence of guns. Both also share those qualities with court fantasy and a lot of industrial revolution era vampire fantasy but you wouldn't consider them together right?

[@RKStumblingbear]

My tier list for this: S: Space Opera (I'm in for the ride), A.I., near sci-fi, military sci-fi A: Cyberpunk, Hopepunk, Solarpunk, Powder Fantasy, Grimdark, Urban Fantasy B: Epic Fantasy, First Contact, Sword & Sorcery C: Absurdist, Alien Invasion, Western Skin, Superhero, Gothic, "Single Creature", Pulp D: Utopian (because alot are actually Dystopians in disguise) Dystopian, Horror Scifi & Fantasy, Extinction, Erotica (as the main driver. I don't mind sex and romance in my stories) Obviously everything has an exception. And I find it depends how a story is marketed. I just recently read and enjoyed Gearbreakers by Zoe Hana Mikuta. It is a YA Cyberpunk Dystopia with a Sapphic Romance. Cyberpunk and big robots is why I picked it up. If it was just marketed as Dystopian, then I wouldn't have.

[@adamgrogory]

Tier-list? More like Tear-list because I always cry when my favorites are in D-tier 🥲

[@Jesse_andrew]

lol

[@steveconsultant4523]

There is some really good Military SciFi, although I can't think of much recently. Three examples are Ender's Game, the Bolo series, and Old Man's War.

[@lsdeann_3293]

I see you dunking on the nu-Star Trek, I press the like button. Good trade.

[@yaymanyayman6892]

Well, he made a good point with discovery and picard being bad, old star trek those is yummy getin my timmy

[@alexmaxxane4280]

Finally, I haven't met anyone who loves the Dresden Files ever. I love it because it's funny and also interesting. I'm onbook seven currently. I loved them so much I asked for them for Christmas.

[@misskindly4580]

YES, PLEASE give us erotic fantasy recommendations on the channel! Maybe erotic fantasy isn't exactly what I'm looking for, but I always feel like I have to choose between good romance with some steamy sexual tension and good fantasy, never can I get both in the same book. And some at the attempts... like From Blood and Ash (can you call that erotic fantasy? I think I would) has extremely poor fantasy elements, worldbuilding and plot. Would love to hear from someone traversed in the genre what they think the best examples are! Dooo it!

[@AMK650]

A Kiss of Blod from jeaniene frost is my all time favorite in this genre. Its steamy, the sex is discribed really well in case of sensation, the relationship is not abusiv (wich is rare) and it has a bad as vampir hunting story.

[@misskindly4580]

@@AMK650 Thanks for the rec, I will go and check it out!

[@kennethhondl1589]

Space Dandy is my favorite absurdist sci-fi. Highly recommend it!

[@DavidKyokushin]

Horror fantasy sounds really cool, but I literally never heard of it before today. Any recommendations?

[@David-un4cs]

I feel like Stephen King actually falls into that category sometimes. Coraline also comes to mind. Some Guillermo Del Toro movies. I've always seen the Insidious movies that way too. Edit: I see it referred to as Dark Fantasy kinda interchangeably.

[@jeremycurle6880]

the dark souls series (and bloodborne) are the best examples that i can think of if you're into video games

[@archer1949]

Neil Gaiman’s Sandman, Especially the earlier story arcs. (Preludes And Nocturnes, The Doll’s House).

[@archer1949]

“24 Hours” (Sandman #6) is one of the best horror short stories I’ve ever read.

[@TDFuhringer]

ARMOR by John Steakley. Can't dismiss military sci-fi till you've read the genre's defintive classic! Strongly recommended.